The old birds get the Virgins worm!

[Buster Hyman]

Virgin discriminated on age

10oct05

THE Queensland Anti-Discrimination Tribunal has found airline Virgin Blue discriminated against eight flight attendant job applicants on the basis of age.

The former Ansett attendants, aged between 35 and 55, launched an action in May claiming that they did not pass the first round of Virgin Blue's assessment because they were not young or attractive enough.

Tribunal member Douglas Savage today told the Brisbane Magistrates Court he agreed with the women, finding the Virgin Blue assessors were "unconsciously discriminating on the basis of age" against the applicants.

Mr Savage said in his judgment that this accounted for the fact that no cabin crew over the age of 36 had been hired during Virgin Blue's recruitment drive between September 2001 and September 2002.

Outside court, one of the women, Nicole Hopper, said she was overjoyed by the win and it showed "people over the age of 35 are not finished".

Mr Savage adjourned the hearing for a date to be fixed to decide what financial compensation the women should receive for economic loss.

All eight women with the exception of Alma Frank have lodged claims for monetary compensation.

Ms Frank was awarded $5000 today by Mr Savage on her claim of having suffered "hurt, humiliation and the like".

Was that Grass' Missus? I didn't think she was that old!

:} :ouch:

[balance]

I would hazard a guess that this decision will be howled down by all those "pro virgin" lunatics who also think that riding a motorbike at 140km/hr in a 70km/hr is a good idea.

Good on yer girls. Give em heaps.

[vee1-rotate]

looking like a half-sucked aspro will not get you past the first stage of the virgin blue recruitment process....hence why none of them got through:p

[Pole Vaulter]

Just goes to show that safety and skill has little to do with the Virgin recruitment process. a size 8 body and being under 30 is more important. I know what I would prefer if I needed to be assisted from a burning a/craft. Skill would win any day. Anyway what more would you expect from the aero club with 737's Thank god we still have Qantas now that Ansett is gone. Good on you girls, sock it to them.

[Sunfish]

Well at least if they are over 30 and on the heavy side it gives Sunfish a chance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ok:

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Oh dear Sunfish. You like fat women :( With or without golf ball dents in their thighs :D ?

[hoss]

Great, Fantastic news for the FAs.

Teach those Clowns a lesson.

:) hoss

[psycho joe]

Nobody wants to be served by bitter old boilers.

Accept that the waters around you have grown... and move on.

[hoss]

Just watched the late edition news. Had to laugh when all the FAs look stunning and the Virgin rep was a fat mole. Interestingly, the ex AN FA's look more attractive than the 'younger' ones I've seen lately!

Go for the throat girls :) .

[Australia2]

Way to go girls !!!

Not all will fall for the Virgin hype and bullsh!t.

[ratpoison]

There is nothing like good ol maturity on an overnight. Bring back the ol girls and some bounce and spring. Love the droopy chin after the 4th merlot. !!! In the morning it's not "oh you told me you loved me" but actually "I'm getting a little too old for this, but thanks for the old times."

[Crashed&Burned]

A little off the point but....I've never gone to bed with an ugly woman but I've woken up with one or two..

[relax737]

ratpoison, you're on the mark son.

The good ole days with a range of chicky babes!!

We could be amused by the young babes so far up themselves they calltheir own name when having an orgasm; the ones we couldn't understand because they punctuated every sentence with liberal "likes, wows, you knows, I means," etc, the language of pre p;ubescent schoolgirls, but still wanted to be treated as though they were adults.

And then there were the older ones who were great value, no pretences, no strings, no free drinks, and just good to have on an overnight.

There were afew of each group that you wouldn;t want to be seen with anywhere, at any price though.

[Grog Frog]

Now that VB have been touched up a little,

How many over 40 pilots have been taken without Jet experience.

I guess only a token few.

Really if some of the ‘youngsters’ are moving on for more lucrative o/s positions after only a couple of years, would it make more sense to take a 45 year old over a 25 year old (more varied experience) and then know that the older pilot is going to be around for 10-15 years.

I guess a few wrinkles in the LH seat is OK, but it does not fit the VB fun and youthful image in the RH seat.

Older pilots would be available to keep the older FAs company on the said overnights


P.S. How many 45 year olds with a wife, kids, dog and bank manager to support could afford $30K and 2+ months with no income.

[Mr.Buzzy]

There are plenty of older people working in the cabin of VB flights. Most of which bring years of experience from AN and abroad.
You'll find that those unsuitable applicants were unsuitable for reasons other than age.

So the questions are:
Now that VB have been slapped on the wrist, do the "unsuitables" still want a job? Probabaly not. Did they ever really want a job? Probably not. Was flexing muscle and "sticking it to them" worth it? Not unless a rich hubby is paying for all those midday coffee and botox appointments, finding work for themselves won't be easy now!

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[Pole Vaulter]

You are starting to believe your Aero Club propaganda Mr BZZZZZ. The girls rejected were a cross section of people with one thing in common. heaps of experience but they were OLD by the Aero Club standards. You keep believing the dribble anyway BZZZZZZZ

[Mr.Buzzy]

Girls?..... where?
Get your hand off your pole buddy!
Loads of experience doesnt get you through the QF system either.
Just because someone is "experienced" doesnt mean they are the person for the job.

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[Pole Vaulter]

BZZZZZ you are the one with the hand on it. fancy even comparing the service and standards at the aero club with that at AN. One was at least a world class airline. At least you cant complain about the service at the aero club cause there is none. As I said you keep believing the hype.

[Mr.Buzzy]

One was at least a world class airline

WAS.....

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[GT-R]

You have a pretty serious stutter there ber ber ber ber ber ber buzzy

[Buster Hyman]

At least was is better than Never will be!:p

[Yorick Hunt]

yes you are correct relax73, as Pole Vaulter stated, the aero club has no service so no need to employ experienced people that know what they are doing, all is needed is enough brain power to keep the vital organs functioning, anything else will result in a dangerous meltdown.

[Next Generation]

Hey Pole Smoker,
Thank god we still have Qantas now that Ansett is gone. So why didn't QANTAS take them then?
You obviously have an extreme dislike for VB, for whatever reason, so you grab hold of any negative press to push your own agenda.
The girls rejected were a cross section of people with one thing in common. heaps of experience So how many burning wrecks did they evacuate passengers from in their long careers at ANSETT? I will hazard a guess here and say NONE.

So what vast experience were they going to bring to VB? Realistically, nothing more than anybody who has been previously employed in the hospitality industry.

The employment process by definition is discriminatory. You choose some people over others, there are winners and there are losers. You deal with it, accept the verdict, and move on.
I am sure that everybody here has at sometime been unsuccessful at an interview, but we didn't subsequently take the potential employer to court. The employer should have the right to decide who works for them, and who does not.

Get over it!

[Pole Vaulter]

You obviously have not been around long enough to know much about airline history NG. AN as well as QF have had many emergency evactuations. I happened to be on duty one Sat morning here in BNE when B727 ANA blew an engine just after rotation and was still on fire when it landed. So dont make statements that you have little knowledge of. I could go on with many others and fortunately no one in any of them suffered serious injury. As to QF taking them well QF has in fact taken many of the AN people as they at least saw the experience and were not a bit concerned if they fitted into a size 8 outfit. I dont have to get over anything sport. Just cant stand such a tacky outfit that everything has some sexual aspect. The name of the inflight rag, The tea and coffee coming in a mug with "hot Stuff" on it and on it goes. Notice how no spokesperson at the aero club will state how many over 35 F/As they have. Seems they know exactly the total number but cant remember how many "old ones" Seems it will be less damming to say I cant remember than to say one or two.

[Next Generation]

You obviously have not been around long enough to know much about airline history NG. AN as well as QF have had many emergency evactuations. So how many of these Flight Attendants who were rejected by VB were involved in the incident you are refering to? None. Virgin Blue has employed one of the MOST experienced ex-ANSETT F/A's, who is considerably older than 35 and definitely not a size 8, and has a great attitude as well. Fun to work with, and great at her job. She obviously got the job based on merit.

I happened to be on duty one Sat morning here in BNE when B727 ANA blew an engine just after rotation and was still on fire when it landed. So all of these F/A's were over 35 with years of experience? Let's assume that they were, did they arrive with heaps of experience, or did they also have some starting point in their younger years, and gain that experience along the way.

I still say that the employer has the right to employ whoever it chooses, and that they should not be dictated to by the person applying for the position.

[Yorick Hunt]

Yes quite right Vaulter, VB is an airline for the boofheads and smart allecs, if Branson could get away with it they would be topless in latex boots with whips.

There is no doubt that NG would go and see a Dr. Death as was up in Bundaburg as you don't need experience in any job you undertake it seems...but how they love to state they are equal opportunity employers, its just some are more equal than others in the process.

[Next Generation]

Yorick Hunt saidOh yeah!!!...you work for Scumbag Blue do you... I am sure that your comments will add to this discussion. Please benefit us with your wealth of knowledge. :yuk:

[Yorick Hunt]

I don't think so... it would be a waste of time as that was on another thread.

[Buster Hyman]

I still say that the employer has the right to employ whoever it chooses
How many disabled, gay Aborigines work at DJ? I guess you got your wish!:hmm:

From the outset, DJ did not want any "baggage" from AN. They grabbed a token amount so that it wasn't too obvious but I think, in general, their plans were for a whole new "mould" of staff. This, in itself, isn't a bad thing but, if you advertise for positions that people are suitably qualified for, you have to expect that the suitably qualified people will question the reasoning for their missing out. Don't forget, there was a glut of qualified staff available at the time.

Regardless of whether an employer should have a right to pick who they want, the laws of the land decrees that they are not allowed to discriminate. It was good enough for the court to determine that they had discriminated, hence the verdict.

Experience is a funny word isn't it? Many interpretations, many variations, you need experience to determine the meaning of experience! If you need to have evacuated a "burning wreck" to be considered experienced then I imagine there are very few pilots you would consider to be any good in a similar emergency. How many cars have you totalled? I've totalled one and done serious damage to about a dozen others, does that make me a more experienced driver? Want a lift?http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/gost.gif

[Sexual Chocolate]

Yet another bunch of self righteous crap from the bitter and twisted, post-modern feminist movement.

Like it or not and rightly or wrongly, from the dawn of the first airlines, hosties or flight attendants or whatever you want to call them have been synonymous with youthful good looks. And seeing as these 35+-ers have a wealth of experience, chances are that they too got their jobs with Ansett in they days when they were young and good looking, getting them over some other discriminee who missed out because THEY were 35 and not so good looking, albeit experienced.

May be if you all go and blockade parliament house, jump and and down while repeatedly screaming 'I'm old, I'm haggerd, I'm ugly and it's JUST NOT FAIR', then someone will listen to you. At very least, i'm sure you'll find that a whole lot of three year olds can relate to your strategy.

[ratpoison]

Whats wrong with being topless in latex boots with whips. ?????

[Big Hairy Potatoes]

I went for a job once and was told that I was over qualified and that I would get bored in the job I applied for. Maybe I wanted to get bored!!
How many old farts have you seen aksing you if you'd like fries with that or behind the counter at Sanity Music, Just Jeans ( basically anywhere they are after the ultra cool youth market). Why aren't they getting sued? Strikes me as hypocritical that they get one employer but not another.
I went to a VB assessment day and noticed that they watch you from the point you walk into the foyer, register, mingle with the other applicants and during the actual assessment. Does it then make sense that if theses ladies showed any negative indicators from walking in and during the assessment that they should have got the job. Sounds to me as if they walked in their with the attitude that because I have experience then I will be hired, no matter what. A job interview is an overall assessment of all skills pssessed, wether it be experience, attitude or interaction with other people. Sounds to me like these ladies maybe only had one of theses things covered.
BHP

[Mr.Buzzy]

Sexual Chocolate .... very well said!

It amazes me that those whining and sooking the most are those that were either rejected at some stage or are the ones that will bore you to tears with stories of the "good old days"
Does anyone remember when flight attendants had to be single????? Immagine trying that on for size today!

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[Yorick Hunt]

Wow, I have never been called a self righteous bitter and twisted post-modern feminist before, I love it!, errr yes, when they joined Ansett they were young a beautiful as well, and if TAA wanted some the opportunity was the same, and yes some did not get in, but what they had in common was that they all had the same experience when they applied....NONE.

Now I wonder if a major airline had fallen over and had around 2,500 F/A's available and were looking for a job and Ansett and TAA was recruiting, how would that have be handled at that time, so I hope you never get old as you are coming up for a rude awakening.

The difference between you Sexual Chocolate and the rejected ex AN girls is that they got to that age first, wish you luck when you get old, you'll be amazed how quickly it will happen.

[SkySista]

There's a thread going on about this in the CC forum as well. I won't repeat what I said there, but I agree with this:

Does it then make sense that if these ladies showed any negative indicators from walking in and during the assessment that they should have got the job. Sounds to me as if they walked in their with the attitude that because I have experience then I will be hired, no matter what. A job interview is an overall assessment of all skills pssessed, wether it be experience, attitude or interaction with other people. Sounds to me like these ladies maybe only had one of theses things covered.

They could have done any number of things to be elimanted from the process. Walk wrong, sit wrong, say something inappropriate to the person who happens to be the company plan amongst the applicants - it can all get you booted.

I suspected that I wasn't successful with Emirates because I'm not of the "look" they are after - yet I'm not suing them. Yeah I was pissed off, but hey, I can't say for sure that was it. I could have done any number of things that meant I got the cut from the (second) round... I might even have breathed wrong for all I know!! :}


The point about experience being all good - in my opinion that is incorrect. Sometimes experienced people (especially those who spend a long time with any one company) become ingrained with the 'ways of doing things' that may not be compatible (in the perception of) the company doing the hiring.

Accept it and move on. If I applied for a job I didn't get, I'd be inclined to think perhaps it was because either a) i wasn't qualified or b) they obviously felt that someone else was MORE qualified than me (and by 'qualified' I don't just mean having done the job before) There's a lot more to it than that....!

[Mr.Buzzy]

Stop it SkySista... you're making waaaay too much sense!
Nice to see for a change.

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[SkySista]

Buzzy, you mean to say this is the only time I have made any sense at all? Bit rich for someone whose vocabulary mainly consists of "z"s :} :p :E

Tis true though, you don't hear of say, someone applying for a modelling job suing because they weren't "attractive enough". Models know that often different clients want different 'looks' or different types of people. While FA's shouldn't be hired solely on looks, most reasonable applicants expect that looks will play some part in the process.

(Oh sorry, was that too logical for you? ;))

[tinpis]

I wouldnt employ anyone who wanted a job as an FA.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Sorry Sis, crossed wires there. I meant a nice change from the usual bleeding hearts that disagree with a companies right to employ their own staff.

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[SkySista]

No worries :ok:

Yes I think companies have a right to choose staff as you say - to a point, and as long as they can back up their decision with reasons.

For example, I have no idea why Virgin didn't just say they didn't think ANsett experience was suited to their company, if that was their reason for not hiring those ladies. Then again, that answer probably would have got them sued as well. You just can't win in today's litigation-happy society. Gone are the days when you said "I didn't get the job, what a pity, maybe I'll try some persistence and try again...." :E ;)

[Pole Vaulter]

Well mr BZZZZZZ or however you spell your name. When the management of VB changes and someone in the new system does not like how you spell your name and fires you without any reference as to how good or bad you do your job let me see just how righteous you are about the employers rights. All this crap is about people with the necessary skills being rejected because of their age. Many have got carried away from the original subject but if you wish to advertise a position in this country you CAN NOT by law refuse someone because of age. So if this rule does not apply in the UAE so be it we live in Australia and that is the law. Then again I guess you at VD or should I say VB I guess think they are above the law of the land. Just wait and see if they come to the pilots now and ask you to take a pay cut to pay out these ladies and see how happy you will be then BZZZZZZZ

[ratpoison]

Classic Desert Whine, you've got my vote to replace TCAS. !!
:p

[Wun Wing Lo]

I agree SkySista companies should be able to hire who they want up to a limit. You can discriminate on lots of things, just not age sex religion or race. Do you even remember all the ridiculous arguments given why women should not fly. That time of the month, what if they got pregnant, not strong enough the list goes on.

Oh yes and we all hate those lefty feminists socialists who whinge about how life aint fair. That is of course unless we miss out on an airline job because of a psych or skills test, or if just one cadetship is offered to an aboriginal candidate based on race(thread on these forums case in point), or when we are told to retire at 60 becuase we are told we are too old.

Yes if you dont fit the mould of the right stuff, wear glasses, are overweight, arent attractive and dont inspire as much confidence in the public as a fit, attractive 40ish year old white male preferrably ex armed services who is 6 feet tall then you dont get a job. No matter how good you are.

Sorry son you dont get a command for another 5 years cause people just get nervous when their captain doesnt look old enough to vote.

It is not unreasonable to expect that even with VB seeking energetic fun people (yeah right) that at least some would be unattractive, at least slightly overweight, older than 25, not blonde or all of these. How many males are employed as FA's by VB? Having a few token oldies isnt good enough. Especially when there is no real reason why there shouldnt be a cross section of age and looks employed. Im sure not all of the over 30's were ex ANS.

As far as modelling etc goes.. from what i understand the law does have exceptions for roles where you can discriminate if it is a requirement for that job. Eg an 80 yo playing a 12 yo in a movie. Or a male applying for a female role... Having said that anyone remember Miss Australia a few years back. The world didn't end.

Oh yes and as for employment in the youth orientated market. There is no double standard. If a 45 yo wanted to work at a jeans shop and they discriminated based on age the person would be quite able to sue on the grounds of discrimination. But I suspect the reason it may not happen has more to do with older workers not being attracted to those jobs and it is far easier to get a job elsewhere in retail than make an issue of it.

Good eye candy though... but for $5000 you can get a lot better :ok:

Tea coffee me anyone?

[Chief Chook]

finding the Virgin Blue assessors were "unconsciously discriminating on the basis of age" against the applicants.lol, "Unconcious(ly)" means during sleep.
I think Mr Savage means "SUBconciously" - as in not conciously...knowingly....discriminating.
Or are these old boilers of Sir Reggie's really nightmares? lol.

[Ronnie Honker]

Did they apply to QF as well?
If so are the ones who failed going to go the Roo for wrinkle discrimination.
" I have only one wrinkle, and I'm sitting on it." Mae West.

[Skypatrol]

Virgin Blue have had an extremely charmed existence, especially with the media. I think most are happy to see them being brought back a peg or 2.......

[Gnadenburg]

About 18 months to 2 years ago, VB was seeking out young, ex-AN F/A's as Direct Entry cabin managers. The strange thing was, these ladies had never flown as Cabin Managers, nor had they flown since the collapse of Ansett.

Evidently, there were big problems in their training department that never caught up with the rapid expansion.

It was fairly obvious discrimination or lack of Virgin Flair shall we say, that already experienced older Cabin Managers weren't sort and a definite VB preference for the younger & untrained expressions.

[Beer Can Dreaming]

Perhaps Godfrey is feeling violated and threatened judging by this notice to staff:

10th October 05

Queensland Discrimination Tribunal Finding

Dear Team,

Virgin Blue today was found to have discriminated against several former unemployed Ansett cabin attendants who were seeking employment with us back in 2001.

The tribunal interrogated but found no fault regarding the company’s recruitment processes and selection criteria. Surprisingly, the judgement said that certain of our staff had “unconsciously” discriminated against the former Ansett personnel and as a result it found against us.

This has been an arduous 3 year process and the 4th time we’ve defended this same issue in various forums and it is the 1st time the decision has gone against Virgin Blue. And it does not mean that this is the final result regarding this issue.

As I write this, our legal team continue to analyse the judgement, but at this early stage we are inclined to appeal this decision as we do not accept this finding. We will however shortly state our public intent. I will also keep you informed of the progress and our thinking on this matter.

Please let me be very clear … We do not believe that those of our team members who were cross examined during this process discriminated against anyone, the Ansett cabin attendants included. We stand by these people, our team members, 100%. Please can I ask that you do the same, especially as this process has not yet run its full course.

Kind regards,

Brett

Now I wonder if the VB shareholders that havent ditched their shares and lost their shirts would want even more money wasted in this fruitless attempt.

[Buster Hyman]

Of course they should fight it! They have a reputation to maintain. (I wonder if their lawyers do face painting in court?)http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/spezial/Fool/leb.gif

[sinala1]

I happened to be on duty one Sat morning here in BNE when B727 ANA blew an engine just after rotation and was still on fire when it landed
If thats the one sometime around 1990 or so (forgive me if the dates are not entirely correct - it was the #2 engine that blew, a/c came back in and pax were evacuated on the runway?) one of the F/A's onboard that aircraft holds (and has done for quite some time - over 4 years) a position with VB, and is now quite senior in the CC training department.

Agreed 100% with SkySis - I too went for EK but was knocked back (more than once too I hasten to point out). I can conjure up any number of discrimination theories (age, height, weight, sexuality, teeth not being 100% perfect etc) but I did not turn around and sue them - I simply accepted the fact that I was not right on the day(s).

At the end of the day everyone is entitled to their opinion on this matter - I am not here to belittle anyone elses nor have mine belittled - but my opinion is not only that justice has been denied to VB; but also the precedence this sets implies that the process of recruiting the people you feel are most appropriate for your company is no longer an option for any company that does not wish to be sued on entirely unfounded grounds. There is no proof that these ladies were denied employment on the basis of their age and just because they were experienced crew from another airline does not mean that they are automatically entitled to any CC job they apply to!

I am not in any way at all condoning any form of discrimiation against any person or group of people, however I do believe that in this case justice has not been served.

[Next Generation]

Anflygirl Oh and for your information I have been accepted by every airline in this country except VB Thank christ at least one of the many airlines in Australia has standards. :E

[petitfromage]

According to OneWorld, American Airlines has 373 Cabin Crew over the age of 70!

Bless the old dears, but surely there is an upper limit?

[Buster Hyman]

What's their strike rate on overnights?:ugh:

[ur2]

AHHH "Virgin Flair", :( I used to have a pair of those in the 70's, :rolleyes: must dig em out.