AAC sink or swim.

[PNVS]

INTENTIONALLY BLANK - next time you pass through EGAA give me a call and I'll tell you about the long distance phone call I have just had!

[This message has been edited by PNVS (edited 18 January 2000).]

[stas-fan]

Sink or Swim you ask? It depends how long it takes us to get to them with the winch......

[Skycop]

Give close air support back to the crabs where it belongs and I for one might consider joining up again.

Oops, spelling!

[This message has been edited by Skycop (edited 04 January 2000).]

[PurplePitot]

Can I ask by the way who are we planning to fight with this awesome technology? (Apart from the French of course)

[sparecrew]

Dear dear, PNVS old chap, dontcha know that if one has been a colonel in the British Army, then one can do absolutely anything............and bugger it up!
No wonder ATIL have poached the AACs tech and weapons instructors to sit in the next office to the Sim instructors to tell them what to say and do.

[stas-fan]

Poached? Come off it sparecrew. My cousin who fly's (occasionally) for you lot says that the door sliders ATIL have approached are all beyond the 22yr point and are not required in the new Army orgbat. Not that they ever were.

[This message has been edited by stas-fan (edited 05 January 2000).]

[PurplePitot]

I think the crabs gave up on CAS Skycop when the stopped getting within 20,000 ft of the (alleged) bad guys. We could always call it "Most un-adjacent Support of Sorts"!

[2's forward 1's back]

Why all the talk of giving the crabs the AH?
Did anybody ever suggest that the Cavalry shouldn't get the Tank?
Look the Army do the fighting and the Crabs do the supporting.
Get the picture?

[MBJ]

Close Air Support to the Crabs - don't even start that idea for fun! You can bet half-a-dozen Air Marshalls have already tried that one on. Just like they pinched Naval fixed- wing because they could do it so much better/ cheaper whatever. I don't think.

Oh, and Purplepitot, there is bound to be someone who wants fight somewhere. Speak softly but carry a big stick is a good plan.

What we want is more Marines! (Duck and weave :))

[Skycop]

Does all this mean that the Grunts have at last decided they don't want to take over SH or run the world then? :)

[64av8or]

PNVS, have some confidence that the validation process will take its course and any quality problems will be dealt with as they arise. The AAC has a huge task ahead but is well up for it. Are you?

[MightyGem]

Thank you 64av8or for that. The only problems that the AAC will have is getting the money to buy the right ground support equipment to do the job. I have this vision of Apaches being refuelled by Bedford bowsers!!

SKIDS ARE FOR KIDS!!

[64av8or]

Bedford Bowsers were dismissed in favour of zenith pumps on all terrain castor wheels. The Reme will operate them as they have the required technical know-how!

[2's forward 1's back]

Will the zenith pump have "flot gear" fitted to help the AAC swim?

[HeliAv8tor]

So, if the AAC is so bouyant why were they/are they canvassing Tornado Nav's to re-tread? As to the SH boys they are extremely capable, probably more so that you green jobs (speaking as someone who has been aviating on both sides of the fence). My advice get current on your STASS and dinghy drills, you may need them (Does your budget still cover your STASS training, I heard you had suspended it for now) :rolleyes:

[This message has been edited by HeliAv8tor (edited 19 January 2000).]

[This message has been edited by HeliAv8tor (edited 19 January 2000).]

[roprick]

There seem to be some very conceited veiws from the blue jobs out there. If we left the CAS to the RAF then it would only be available when its CAVOK, and only if the 5 star hotel was within a fuel tanks range.

Remember the grass always seems greener on the other side. Having just spent a long time on a course with the RAF fast jet and rotor boys, then I know where i would rather be. Fast jet 4 to 5 hours a month no thanks.

Sorry you blue job guys but get to know the facts before gobbing off, the WAH 64 CAS I dont think so! Just because we Have NCO Aircrew. If it wasnt for NCO Aircrew maybe we would'nt of faired so well in the Battle of Britain.

[HeliAv8tor]

Roprick, 'fraid I know the facts old son, I used to train you guys :)

[This message has been edited by HeliAv8tor (edited 22 January 2000).]

[roprick]

So you used to train us, then you will know that we are not going to take nav's. nothing against them, infact I have a very good friend how is a Tornado Nav. But it seems that you think we wont be able to handle it. If the US can then need I say more.

HeliAV8tor a QHI gosh what can I say. An expert in every field or so you think. well the army ones that is. No disrespect to all you QHI but just stick to the teaching flying.

I must agree the AAC has to get away from the soldiers first bollocks.

But I really cant stomach the blue jobs slagging down very good pilots just because they are NCO's.

[Hoist-to-Crew]

Blue jobs who work with crews know the value of ncos, those who don't ...don't.

[Ack2Main]

I heard a story about booty's all being commisioned! Is this true and is this really the demise of the AAC as well.

[This message has been edited by Ack2Main (edited 23 January 2000).]

[Lefskidlo]

Ack2Main,
from what I hear it is true, and good luck to them! As bitter a pill as it is for some of us to swallow this proves that NCOs are of the same quality as Officers throughout the Services.
As far as it being the demise of the AAC I believe they will continue to operate with the rank structure they already have very effectively.

[A/Tpr Cooper]

This week the Booty NCO pilots have mostly been commissioned. If they want it anyway.Most of them have taken the RN up on a very good offer.
As for this being the end for the NCO pilot in the AAC I think NOT. Maybe it is time that the penny pincher's at the MOD looked at why the RAF fly commissioned officer front seaters on its rotary fleet.

[This message has been edited by A/Tpr Cooper (edited 25 January 2000).]

[TICU]

I THINK THE RAF HAVE ENOUGH PROBLEMS OF THIER OWN WITHOUT BITCHING ABOUT OUR APACHE ONES. THEY WANT IT BECAUSE THEY ARE JEALOUS. WHO WOULDN'T! BUT CONSIDER THIS IF JHC MANAGE TO BIN THE LYNX FLEET LIKE THEY WANT TO, WE WILL ALL BE WEARING A BLUE SUIT SOON ANYWAY. AND THEN THEY WILL HAVE TO WORK WITH NCO AIRCREW, BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PILOTS TO FLY THIER PUMAS CH-47'S EH101'S AS IT IS.

[cyclic]

We do work with excellent NCO aircrew everyday! If they pay me the same and take away all the other niff naff I have to do, I might go back.......

[Master baiter]

Slightly out of phase but I'll ask anyway,
Any truth in rumour control that the WAH 64D delivery is being delayed?

If true anyone know why.....or can't we discuss it here! :rolleyes:

[This message has been edited by Master baiter (edited 08 February 2000).]

[Skycop]

A new aircraft - delayed? Surely not.

[Methusalah]

As one who qualified on course 173 at Middle Wallop it is very interesting to see how life has changed.

Back in 1965 the ONLY difference between and NCO and an Officer pilot was the pay!!!

[Master baiter]

M....things have changed since your day, now its pure ability that is the main difference.
I'll leave it up to you to work out which way round! :)

[PUP]

TICU,

Word has it that the RAF pilot appointer has over a hundred qualified pilots from the other Services wanting to get into the RAF to fly helicopters. Of those over 60 are AAC pilots who can clearly see some greener grass!
The RAF isn't really 'short' of pilots, thats why it's not had to take up many of these applications. The only thing that they are becoming very short of is experience due to the increased turnover rate.
Regarding whether the RAF is "jealous" of the Apache, I'm sure there are few pilots who wouldn't want to fly it. This perception of jealousy is fuelled by the general belief that the Apache may be too complex for the REME and some of the AAC pilots and consequently it will take a very long time to generate a good operational capability - it doesn't mean that only the RAF could make it work!!
Look at the Americans; they keep their Apaches flying and some of their crews have a good capability, however, these are in the minority - remember Kosovo. They have hundreds and hundreds of ac but what's their serviceability rate?
What will have to change (and people at the top know it) are some of the attitudes in the AAC, particularly the Soldier First.... blah.

[HeliAv8tor]

Dear TICU, lets get a few things straight. Frankley, the rotary side of Royal Air Force does not want the Apache or the CAS associated with it. SH fleet carry out their mission to support the Army in a truley professional manner. As to manning, the front end and rear end crewing for the SH fleet is in reasonable order. Sure there is a shortfall (as there is in all three services), however the RAF (and the Navy I may add) is not in the deficit currently held by the AAC. As to Army SNCO/JNCO aircrew. No one doubts their ability as aircrew, they have been tested at RAF Cranwell found suitable form training and successfully passed the APC. If YOU want a Commission in the Armed Forces be it in the AAC, the Navy or the Royal Air Force you have to prove your worth and earn it. Have you got what it takes, take a long look at yourself and then truthfully answer that question. Also, please correct me if I am wrong, but the JHC was originally an Army concept and believe me, you are safe in your own colour of uniform. The Apache will stay with the Army and will (eventually) be a success, no doubt with Army SNCO's crewing it. However please enjoy the exercises in Poland, Im told its nice this time of year, with snow and all the potatoes you can eat.

And finally, yes the Apache program seems to have moved to the right. I am reliably informed that the first one (Apache) arrives on March 31st and then departs off to Boscombe on April 1st. The next one does not then arrive until August/September time due to Westlands being a little behind.

PS; TICU, writing in capitals is tantamount to shouting and considered somewhat rude in most forums. Also either get a spool chucker or dictionary to help with the spelling. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by HeliAv8tor (edited 11 February 2000).]

[This message has been edited by HeliAv8tor (edited 12 February 2000).]

[This message has been edited by HeliAv8tor (edited 12 February 2000).]

[Hugh Jörgan]

How on earth do do "they" think we can cope with the Apache when we can't keep our current fleet in the air due to lack of money, parts and manpower to maintain them.

An interesting time lies ahead.......how long before someone mentions the re-birth of the Royal Flying Coprs!

[Cyclic Hotline]

Hugh, old chap,
I am very interested in this concept of the "Royal Flying Coprs". Might I be correct in thinking that this is some of almagamation of the Special Branch Royalty protection division, Flying Squad and Police Aviation.
Good thinking, excellent initiative. You are the kind of Man that HM PPRuNe is looking for. Save the taxpayer money, efficiency, all that sort of stuff.
Good Work, great idea. ;)

[PurplePitot]

Oh dear. Can you tell me where you got your spell checker from HeliAv8tor because, Frankley it,s abillity to sucessfully spoll chick is truley limited, all things concidered.

What did you edit I wonder!!!!

[This message has been edited by PurplePitot (edited 12 February 2000).]

[Hugh Jörgan]

Cyclic Hotline.........not quite,

By amalgamating the AAC and RAF, the figures would imply: more serviceable aircraft, more current and competent aircrew and less spares problems.

Of course, the old farts in charge would have to be thinned out a bit, but I fear it would be the ex Army that would lead such a re-born force.

One of the bonuses is that all NCO aircrew would have to be commissioned, or at the very least become Warrant Officer spec aircrew............no chance!

Hugh

[HeliAv8tor]

Purple Pilot, ah, ha, you noticed the deliberate mostikes, very astute. I wonder what did you edit?

[Torque Throbber]

With reference to the JNCO and SNCO aircrew subject, i don't believe that there is really an alternative as they are a much cheaper method of crewing aircraft. And they are more likely to like it and lump it and get on with their job!

[roprick]

heliav8tor i wish you wouldnt refer to the WAH64D's job as CAS, because if you bothered to look into its role then you would see it is not CAS. But much the same as the good old LYNX. ANTI ARMOUR. As for SH I only wished that the crews would realise that they are there as battlefield taxi's. That is not meant to sound condescendings but truthful. After all it was the army that funded the SH fleet.
as for the date sliping sideways the program is still on course, with boscombe having three aircraft by june00 thats from ETPS themselves.

[HeliAv8tor]

Dear roprick, thank you. Apart from the so called "Battle of Box Hill" when did the Anti-Armour Lynx of the AAC shoot anything other than various targets on ranges. The so called "battle" was cardboard decoys. You (the AAC) have yet to engage a target that shoots back!

As to SH being battlefield taxis, if you call the ability of the Chinook HC2 to lift 9.5 Tonne with full fuel in support of the Army a taxi, then I bow to your superior knowledge. The Lynx and the Gazelle seem to carry out the battlefield taxi role on a regular basis, when serviceable that is.

Lets face it we are all support of the guys on the ground and I hope we all do it to the best of our ability.

[Pete O'Tewbe]

Can I draw your attention to the Battle for Objective Platinum on 26 Feb 1991 where I believe tanks and MTLBs were destroyed by AAC Anti-tank Lynx?

------------------
Never Pass Gas.....

[This message has been edited by Pete O'Tewbe (edited 13 February 2000).]

[PurplePitot]

Hi Torque Throbber. Your post is guaranteed to excite the chaps somewhat! Can I say that I retired last year as a WO2 having flown various types in the AAC for the last 20 years, my final pay cheque put me on 37K plus or minus, which equates to a regular non flying (non flying pay at least) Major with some four years seniority. Your sums simply don’t add up old boy. How was I cheaper?

What p*****s me off of course is the miserly pension that reflects rank and not pay but that’s another story……..

Like it or lump it? It took me 13 weeks from start to finish to get my ATP, I am now on the same pay as when I left plus a wedge in the bank and a fat(ish) pension. You of course can stag on in Kosovo – Well Done!!!

[roprick]

Heliav8tor
I dont want to get into a slagging match but it just really grips my s**t when I here people getting on there high horse and slagging down something that I am part of. If only we could be all failed fast get jet pilots like yourself. But at least the army has given me a chance to fly for which I'm very grateful for.
do you feel threatened that non commsioned type do the same job as you get a life.
you seem that you would of been more at home in waterloo. I would of said the Battle of Britain but that was mostly NCO air crew.
As for box hill learn the facts first.
when has the mighty chinook fired in anger, oh thats right never.
sorry if the coment about taxi's hurt, but as they say the truth hurts.
I really think that you dont like the idea of us getting WAH64D well sorry but you will never know what it is like to fly an attack helicopter, stick to the taxi service. sorry if i have offended any of you decent puma or chinook drivers i know you are not all like heliav8tor.

[stas-fan]

Cool it dudes!
Crab Taxi driver - it's your choosen profession, live with it.
I heard from a QHI course mate who was in a Gaz at box hill they knew after the second photon that it was a decoy, there was a danger of an outbreak of peace so it was 'steam removal' All three services and 5 nations were at that bun fight so don't throw stones.

NCO 'ace Army pilot' - you should have done better at school! A legend in your own Naafi break. A VC-10 driver hasn't shot anyone down in the last 50 years either (not counting BEagle and his mates on Mil Pilots forum)He is just as (and I venture heaps more)professional at his job as you are.

Now stop bickering and get back to whining incessantly about things that don't matter like pay and conditions.

[This message has been edited by stas-fan (edited 16 February 2000).]

[Cyclic Hotline]

Precisely, what is the "Battle of Box Hill"?

[MightyGem]

HeliAv8tor, I suggest you get down to the AAC museum and get a copy of the painting of the attack on Objective Platinum. 4 T62s and 2 or 3 MTLBs was the final score I believe :)
You can also buy one of the refuel and rearm afterwards if you like(I'm in that one).

Cyclic Hotline, the Battle of Box Hill was an attack by 661 (I think, Alzhiemers you know) Sqn AAC on an Iraqi position. It was only afterwards that it was discovered to be a decoy position. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by MightyGem (edited 20 February 2000).]

[This message has been edited by MightyGem (edited 20 February 2000).]

[64av8or]

PUP & Heliav8or
With regard to the Apache, thanks for your concerns but we will be just fine. In your case PUP, ignorance must be sheer bliss!

[64av8or]

PUP & Heliav8or
With regard to the Apache, thanks for your concerns but we will be just fine. In your case PUP, ignorance must be sheer bliss!

[HeliAv8tor]

Oh dear, this string is all getting a bit sad. Roprick - dear chap, I have been a SNCO and a Warrant Officer in The Corps, flown most types that The Corps had to offer, paid back in spades by means of service, the training given to me and moved on in life doing what I like to do best, fly.

Ive said it before in this string, let the AAC do the job it is good at and the RAF likewise.

As to Op Platinum, sorry guys the memory is a bit jaded. Old age catching up on me, so I'll take that one on the chin.

Safe aviating ya all.

[Wile E Coyote]

If a company starts to use a different countries hardware, surely then, the crew concept used by that country would have been adopted also.
Afterall the US has properly employed helis in more hostile circumstances and know the worth of their aircrew, more than the UK army.
So here is to all the new WO4's (NCO)on presentation of wings, and every 3 years onward and upward to WO3, WO2, WO1. Then ??

or(b), would across the road really want to upset the ground spikes as they are so important.

Tail wags the dog

[PFL]

Nice one, Wile E Coyote. You reckon that's likely to happen? In our dreams! But seriously, it's something that should've happened long ago. Just like certain qualifications in other Corps attract "instant" promotion, so sould the APC (REME Artificer, RA SMIG). At the very least QHI's. I'm not advocating increased pay, I'd happily remain at the same pay, but the kudos is equally as important.

[PurplePitot]

Hmm. You need to research your subject a little better Mr Coyote. The US do use Warrant Officer ranks and as a concept it works very well but there are a few pitfalls. Namely:

Direct entry to flight school from civilian life. Clearly this would deny the AAC the great deal of experience gained from its E3 policy which compliments the commissioned officers, who of course, did come straight from civi street. In addition, any student chopped from US FS automatically gets to serve three years as a PFC – Not an attractive proposition.

The rank structure is reversed ie: WO1 is the most junior with WO4 a very senior rank indeed. Woe betide anybody, commissioned or otherwise, who run up against one of these guys (normally Vietnam vets and every conflict in between). This system could not possibly work in an armed force that has just dragged itself into the 20th Century only to find everyone else thinks they’re in the 21st. (which of course happens next year, but that’s another thread!)

I am not convinced the US always use their helicopters properly. Albania being a good example, they lost two just flying there, crashed a third in training and then realised they couldn’t get over the mountain range into Kosovo anyway. The US always lost 2 or 3 64s on it’s Reforger exercises in Germany which brings into question the quality of the US training. Their pilots are not leaders, they are followers, they do not think for themselves and are poles apart from their European counterparts.

I think the AAC know very well the worth of all of their pilots, not just the NCO variety, they are acutely aware of the problems but are clearly frustrated at every turn by the New Labour treasury and a deep reluctance to change within the Army as a whole (Institutionalised Conservatism??)

Remember also, that there are a lot of very well qualified and very clever NCO types in the army as a whole playing with all sorts of specialised equipment who arguably have a better claim than pilots for a shake up in the system – Because at the end of the day, flying helicopters is pretty easy!!

[PurplePitot]

Hmm. You need to research your subject a little better Mr Coyote. The US do use Warrant Officer ranks and as a concept it works very well but there are a few pitfalls. Namely:

Direct entry to flight school from civilian life. Clearly this would deny the AAC the great deal of experience gained from its E3 policy which compliments the commissioned officers, who of course, did come straight from civi street. In addition, any student chopped from US FS automatically gets to serve three years as a PFC – Not an attractive proposition.

The rank structure is reversed ie: WO1 is the most junior with WO4 a very senior rank indeed. Woe betide anybody, commissioned or otherwise, who run up against one of these guys (normally Vietnam vets and every conflict in between). This system could not possibly work in an armed force that has just dragged itself into the 20th Century only to find everyone else thinks they’re in the 21st. (which of course happens next year, but that’s another thread!)

I am not convinced the US always use their helicopters properly. Albania being a good example, they lost two just flying there, crashed a third in training and then realised they couldn’t get over the mountain range into Kosovo anyway. The US always lost 2 or 3 64s on it’s Reforger exercises in Germany which brings into question the quality of the US training. Their pilots are not leaders, they are followers, they do not think for themselves and are poles apart from their European counterparts.

I think the AAC know very well the worth of all of their pilots, not just the NCO variety, they are acutely aware of the problems but are clearly frustrated at every turn by the New Labour treasury and a deep reluctance to change within the Army as a whole (Institutionalised Conservatism??)

Remember also, that there are a lot of very well qualified and very clever NCO types in the army as a whole playing with all sorts of specialised equipment who arguably have a better claim than pilots for a shake up in the system – Because at the end of the day, flying helicopters is pretty easy!!

[helidrvr]

REQUEST FROM YOUR MODERATOR:

There are a number of threads which deal with military helicopter adventures which are totally unintelligible to civilians - this one being a case in point :mad:.

Please move to the military form with these topics. If your topic deals with military helicopters in particular, you can always post a brief note on this forum to alert those with an interest in Apaches and such that a new topic is running on the military forum.

Keep the dirty side down :).

[Wile E Coyote]

Roger,
Flicking to military pilots
PurplePitot please join me