Ek Package increase

[jumbo1]

What happened to "Don't resign, wait until October?"

Ho Hum ho hum ho hum.....................

Under review till January?

[BigGeordie]

I think the "Don't go until October" was more of a plea than a promise of better things to come!

[journeyman]

In all fairness though, they didn't say which October.:(

[Earl Hadlea]

It ain't goin to happen, not now nor in the future.

Keep discovering. :E

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Sorry to not dissappoint you Earl you are right...
All 330/340 captains have been offered 777 commands , but f/os cannot do a transition upgrade .
Face it f/o is nothing more then a housemaid for a Captain .
:mad:

Get out while you can there is plenty of jobs now , dont hang around waiting for a miracle or youll still be here in 20 years waiting .......and still could be an F/O , it doesnt matter if you have more hours then most of the captains , fly well , fly bad , just dont give up a command to come here ................

Apparently there was a lot of EK drivers at the thomson fly open day ........ good luck fellas.........

[parcival]

Maybe the reason Airbus Captains have been offered Boeing transitions is to make space for Airbus F/Os to upgrade on the Airbus.
This would keep the upgrades internal rather than employing more DECs.

[flybystring]

It really is quite unbelievable.

You’re an expanding airline, and require flexibility, remember that word TCAS and the buffoons in crew planning use it all the time. So the first thing we shall do to give us wider flexibility during the expansion.

1. Lets increase the command hours from 4500 to 6000, a step but I have not quite screwed myself yet. I could have looked at pilots individually realized that cadets need sectors not cruise hours but that would be too hard.

2. Lets stop the practice of Accelerated upgrades and take on new captains from outside and give them full transitions if needed. That should stop experienced guys applying quickly.

3. Just to put myself really in the corner I better also stop transition upgrades, so I can’t have the Flexibility of moving guys between fleets.

4. Just in case better raise the hours for co-pilots applying to 4000 so I can get even fewer people to apply because with 4000 hours they already have a command but wont qualify for command on points 1 to 3 so wont turn up for the course.

5. Well I better tell the guys here if they don’t like it to F off. Good they are going in droves so I really have screwed myself now.

6. No, still a fraction of space for maneuver so I had better sack most of the Training Captains and examiners just in case and take six months to get them to reapply for the jobs again.

Yep that’s it, I have legislated all my FLEXABILITY away and everything is well and truly screwed. Aren’t I a good manager, I said nothing while it was all going on and took my bonus. So Global Nomad what have you got to say to the above.

If I missed anything to the treatise in incompetence please feel free to add.

[Scooter Rassmussin]

That is so fuken funny...........................flybystring

:E

[LHR Rain]

Fly By String

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Another point you might have metioned is "If you don't like it, LEAVE!" You touched on it I think but it needed highlighted. Also "You are lucky to have a job." What managers EK has, right Office Boy, I mean Global Nomad.

[ruserious]

LHR Rain, a bit of 'kin respect there, GN is now a VP and deserves our undying admiration. After all JH and he saved the company a fortune with their credit hour scam.
He is one of the reasons why Flight Ops is so efficient this year, :ok:

[Earl Hadlea]

......In the meantime, we await Nobal Gonad's appearance. :{ :{

[dalflyer]

Sounds like we're going to see ALOT of glass made real soon over there because of the nuclear meltdown that is about to happen at EK....Good luck lads....Management run amuck again, what a shame :(

[donpizmeov]

You know, I could have sworn that Global Nomad was a line captain from the Boeing fleet. I think that other fella you are refering to is hanging out at www.beancounterswhohatepilots.com.

Don

[newhappy]

Well at least on the rumour buster it is clear now that we will not be getting another increase for this year. Thanks to the airbus fleet manager for the clarification, for those of you that still had any dought about if it was coming or not. It is to bad because it stops all the good rumours about when the increase would come. The last one that made me laugh, was the one about the 20% on the 25th for the 20 years of the airline. It is just too bad because it was realy funny actualy seing grown up men believing in Santa Claus... The other thing that has also been cleared to the trainers at least is the fact that they will not upgrade 140+ guys on the airbus fleet between now and end of 2006, but instead around 75 guys. (Even on the crew portal it says clearly that the 140+ can change for operational reasons...) The request for fleet transfers on to the boeing fleet that we captains got, in imho, is just a cover up ploy to say to the fo's "that hey we asked internaly for help, but your airbus captains did not want to help out so we are going to hire DECs. Not our fault, blame your airbus captains," like I would volunteer to go fly even further and for more days away than what I do now.... Nobody is going to go back to the 777 not even the guys who came over from it, as their lifestyle is much better on the airbus fleet. Just wait and see an advert in flight in the next couple of months for more DECs, and maybe they will pay them more than what we get as it makes sense... Another management achievement for your list flybystring...

[Quod Boy]

Earl mate,

Where does it say anywhere that to drive the 380 you need to be on the current bus?The chance to go to the 777 is to free up space on 330 for upgrades I guess?

There will no doubt be a "cost neutral" solution to transition from 777 to 380 if you are deemed suitable it is in the companys interest and the rules will change accordingly.

Having just done a trip with 4 from 8 pilots on the rotation removed from their roster to crew the pattern I for one am not certain the required standard of pilots will be in EK if the present self destruct method of man management path continues.

Is it true the 2nd JFK is delayed,with Hamburg due lack of crew?

Not knowing but Im not sure we have enough pilots at the moment to do the job yet alone expand yet further.



QB:ok: :ok:

[BYMONEK]

Hasn't a lot of bitching and moaning been from the 'Airbus' guys due to you all working your nuts off. Now you're posting that life on the bus is sweet and 777 is to be avoided at all costs. :confused:

[SecurID]

BYMONEK,

No, that was one person's opinion, not the majority's. But who would want to jump from one fleet to the other knowing that

a. The first B777-300ERs have no crew rest facilities (EK requested that the standard fit be modified to exclude the rest area)

b. That the expansion over the next few years is on the Boeing fleet. Having experienced four years of turmoil as the Airbus fleet grew, why volunteer for yet more?

c. That the possibility of flying the A380 would be in the very distant future.

d. That very few carriers worldwide, other than US majors and flag carriers, fly the Boeing B777, thus limiting future job opportunities.

It may offer some people an opprotunity to get time in other destinations that the 'Bus does not fly to, Brisbane for example, but then destination equipment changes are very common so changing fleet just because you could get to Brissie would be foolish in the least.

Quod Boy,

There is no published Fleet Transfer Policy for prospective applicants for the A380. However, there is a policy that was adopted when the A340 was introduced and that stated that you needed a year's experience on the light twin first. It therefore logically follows that the A380 will require at least a modicum of Airbus philosophy knowledge....

[Quod Boy]

Secure ID,

Ok,point taken in that case then we can expect all the 777 old guard across to the bus prior to 380 arrival in oreder to get th2 12 months on type in?

If so,why are they not here with less than 2 years to go?

I shall venture to suggest a "cost neutral" solution involving seniority and a "waiver" on existing policy may well occur in senirity numbers 1-100.

IMHO of course,keep discovering.Back from pub.
QB:cool:

[Uplink]

Secure,

The B777 do have crew rest facilities. The first 10 will not have them and the rest will. The ones with the rest facilities will be the ones going to JFK. The forward rest will not be put in as the weight penalty is one tonne plus. The B777-200LR will comew with the forward rest facility as standard. Having also seen the mock ups of both rest areas it is by far better than the airbus mickey mouse affair.

With regard to the transfer to the Boeing I think it will free up positions for the F/O's on the airbus. Not many places in the world to have a 330/340 and B777 on your licence.

As far as package increase goes - Why do people insist on thinking that every time there is an announcement, a payrise is in the offing. No company will do this. The budget has been set for this financial year and nothing will move 'till April/May. All that happens is people get their hopes up and become disappointed when it doesnt happen. It would be nice to think that we would have a 20% payrise. That is not going to happen and I think the majority know that.

The Airbus guys who have had the offer of a change to the Boeing. Are these the same guys who are working their arses off. This is therefore your chance to change the lifestyle you hate and give your F/O colleagues a chance of a command.

[RINGAdingding]

Are you guys kidding!!

of course i would go to the Boeing! 95 hours of 345 am indias,osakas,shanghais,shanghais,osakas,shanghais,osakas,os akas,shanghais,new york,osakas,shanghais,sydney,shanghais,shanghais,osakas,osak as,osakas,shanghais,shanghais,sydney,osakas,osakas,osakas,ne wyork,shangais,osakas,indias,indias,indias >>>>>>>>>>> the end is not in sight!!

But this idea of sending Airbus pilots to the boeing,well what can i say,another permutation of an equation to do everything needed to not have to dig into those bloody deep pockets and PAY UP!!

The company believes that by filling the shortfall of captains on the EXPANDING Boeing fleet they will have more chance of finding A330 rated DECs than B777 DECs therefore solving TWO problems at once BUT how does that now position the Boeing FOs for that matter Airbus FOs?

And how many Cathay 330/340 pilots do you think are close to 55 and have been stung by the property bust just a waitn to get there hands on an Emirates aircraft!! Boyo oh boy!!

This is just yet another reshuffle and policy change to fit the everchanging market environment so as NOT to pay up!!

Cold,calculating,cruel BUT this is MODERN business practices at there finest!! Much much more to come!!

oh and one final thought for all those wishing for the big inevitable PAY RISE (me included) it aint gunna happen!!

Oh and one more thought, here we have an expanding airline pushing the biggest and best IMAGE to the world an airline that needs to be doing its Damndest to attract and retain the best pilots but at same the time when they can least afford to do it they F$%K with us and our terms and conditions WHAT do you think it will be like when they finally stop growing and now have stable numbers. You better be resolute enough then to protect what you have because broadsides will become a common occurrence!!

Hold on to your hats!! The storm is a coming!! :ok:

[Uplink]

Hey Ringa,

Dont try to analyse why they are asking for airbus to swap to boeing. If it means you will get a rest and a better lifestlye then take it.

There are delays in the arrival of the Boeings so it means I believe that 5 will come in November. They will need people to fly them.

Simple as that. Take the offer. By the sounds of the airbus guys as a whole, you could all do with a rest. Question is can it get any worse (probably !!!)

[SecurID]

Uplink,

None of the current B777s have crew rest facilities other than a 1st class seat. I also said that the first few B777-3000ERs do not have the rest area, for the reasons that you mentioned.

As for having the A330/340 and B777 on your licence, wouldn't that be great on a FAA or JAA ATPL? On a UAE ATPL? Different story...

[donpizmeov]

Well another compound of EK pilots have been told that the rent on their Villas is too expensive, and that they are to move (no choice of Villas given), take the allowance or pay the difference. Perhaps this is the package change that was rumoured to happen!

Always discovering.
Don

[vickers23]

Yep,

wait till october and you will definately move out
without regrets???? HAAAAHAAAA:E

[SecurID]

Don,

Which compound and what is the rental increase and difference that the guys have to pay?

But how can they get away with it? the website clearly states:

Utility Allowance or Fully furnished accommodation (including water & electricity) is supplied.

Aaah yes, now I see. They will supply you fully furnished accommodation but can move you at the drop of a hat...

[Scooter Rassmussin]

Whats the difference between a DEC with 1 years service moving from Airbus to Boeing , and an f/o with 2 plus years in Ek , lots of Boeing time , including command time , enough for Accelerated with good sim scores ..
Why cant they do transition upgrades its the last link in the chain..........:{

[donpizmeov]

SecurID,

The Villas are within Internet city. The rent went up 20%, its now around AED15000 above the EK limit, so the difference is around AED1300 per month. Some of the fellas had been there for 9years, some for a few months. Luckily it comes 12 months after the last pay cut, so at least there is some consistency.

Don

[flybystring]

Scooter the difference is that senior management would have to admit they introduced yet another policy for which the consequences were never considered. Thus an Arabic Solution to an Arabic problem, Save Face !

Can you rememeber the FCI explaining the augmented hours fiasco, no it was never issued because they screwed up operated completely outside the AOC and without the approval of all the countries they operated into.

FACE SAVING RULES THE ROOST, and they have the gall to talk about a safety culture !

[White Sausage]

Guys, look at this and then you are welcome to comment...

http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/09/23/Navigation/256/201681/MAS+pilots+secure+25+pay+rises.html

Time to wake up...

[EY777]

I don't think EK management will shiver in their boots :}

Even with MAS drivers getting the mentioned pay rise, it doesn't even come close to what the Mid East Carriers are offering.Rumour has it that the new ED of MAS (who's a highly regarded beancounter) held back the new deal so he can compare to what the market pays........Let's just say that he didn't need all his accounting skills to know that MAS had a sweet deal......& promptly signed off the deal :E

[Jack D]

When rent prices fall , as they inevitably will , is it likely that the

EK accomo will move those affected back into their original or

equivalent accomodation ? . We are talking pennies here, the

solution is that the company should bite the bullet for a

year or so and then sharpen up their negotiating skills .

The question is really, who owns the villas ? , perhaps the usual

money go round is at play .

[dunerider]

Terrible this has happened again. One of the guys has just been there for 10 months and feared this would happen. After assurances from accommodation he would be secure he moved to the place they recommended. After paying a load of cash out of his own pocket after his first forced move. Now what is to happen? Once again more money to dish out and the terrible stress of dealing with the accommodation department. Not to mention the usual unrest and disruption to the family. Most don’t give it a second thought as they have not been affected. However I sense that this problem will escalate and cause grief to many. The dreamers think that we have a chance of a payrise.This will never happen. With the spiralling rents in Dubai which will completely gobble up any part of the budget allocated to the pilots package for an increment or pay increase. Emirates will simply refuse to pay any more rent and continually move you to cheaper accommodation at your own cost. They may give a paltry increase in the rental allowance at the next review which will benefit the 7-10 % of the guys living in their own houses however for the rest it is next to useless. I don’t need to keep discovering I have known this painful reality for to long.

[journeyman]

Trimotor,

At the risk of sounding pedantic, I think they have correctly priced themselves in the market.

It is an unfortunate fact that at the moment, rents are at a stratospheric high and landlords are cashing in. That is hardly the fault of Emirates, although I do believe they are under an obligation to keep pace with market trends.

It is doubtful that the market can sustain - in the event that it doesn't, would you be happy with a decrease in accommodation allowance?

[nixisfix]

Journeyman,

at the risk of sounding insincere, yes I would have been happy to take a cut in the allowance because I never have taken it in the first place. I fully agree with your view that the company has to the obligation to provide adequate accommodation for ALL its pilots. By lowering the the standards of the accommodation sufficiently the company lures people into taking the allowance, thereby saving money while at the same time washing their hands of any responsibility. The expatriates who are renting privately are asked to pay for the greed of the local landlords while at the same time the company is unwilling to do so, something does not compute here...

[Scooter Rassmussin]

If i need a shipping container it goes straight to home.
The only answer is offshore bases ,or more pilots will leave .
So many reasons not to stay..................:ok:

Has any F/O got any reason to stay cause i cant think of any........

[SecurID]

Hmmm, let me think..... The sun is shining!

[halas]

Not so long ago some very senior pilots were told that their villas were too expensive, with the same options...

1. Stay and pay the difference
2. Move into other company accommodation
3. Take the allowance and move out.

One of the affected told them he was not moving at all.
When challenged by the cucumber brigade he advised that he would not incure any expense from one of their options offered, as each one would.

He also told them that any difference in the rent that they reckon is above their allocation estimates per year could be saved by him in one flight alone. (Not sure of the formula there)

Conversly he could match the same rent difference per annum on every flight he operated, and would.

That was the sealing argument. He stayed.

halas

[BYMONEK]

Scooter

As you can't think of any, let me at least tell you the reasons I'M staying;

A reasonable starting salary net of tax around $5500 month. Those that say they can't manage then save the boat and brand new 4x4 until you've been here a few years.

Not having to wait too long for a Command anyway as it is still 'around' the 3 year mark. Yes, some have had to wait longer and the lack of transition upgrades policy is poor but people must be naive if they think it's their right at 3 years to the day to get the fourth stipe. ( That's when you order the boat!)

A provident fund that, although lacking in performance, will still give you the full balance of the fund instead of being tied to buying an annuity with current appalling rates. Just ask anyone who's joined BA on the new contract and ask them what can they expect on retirement!

Good standard of accommodation with all bills payed including any maintenance.

Flying new widebody aircraft that are well maintained. Not having to do manual loadsheets everywhere we go or the refuelling!

New and varied route structure that offers everything from a 35 min flight to 14 hours.

A bidding system that 'generally' allows you to choose what you want and gives you particular days off if that's your priority. At least on the Boeing anyway.

Leave system that is done at home on computer and can be confirmed within seconds.

Excellent staff travel that even allows you to turn up and go with e-ticket ( 2 weeks notice with my last outfit!). Good deals with almost every other airline going including business class travel for ALL the family on Lufthansa ( and EK if book Cat C firm)

Having a driver to pick you up and take you home after every flight. New Volvo's are nice.

Excellent training facilities especially the Pilot's lounge in the new Aviation building!

Getting to fly with a great bunch of guys. Very few left seat guys difficult to get on with. Operating in a professional yet relaxed environment on the Flight Deck.

And job security. Never had to face it? Lucky you. It's not pleasant facing redundancy, ask anyone who has. I don't wish to again, so here I am....................for now at least!

Oh, and as Secure ID said, the sun is shining. Unlike Quod Boy who's always off to the pub, i'm off to the beach. The pub is later!



:ok:

P.s If non of the above grabs you, time to order that container of yours.

[balsam]

hello guys.

can anybody tell me what kind of schools are there and the money they give is enough also is the bus included . thanx

[Backwater]

Bymonek. Spoken like a true Boeing pilot!! Soon it will be your turn to fly 900 hours per year (though fortunately you will be spared the factoring that Airbus guys had to endure). Check back with us this time next year and we'll see if your outlook has changed!
I agree with your list of good points though. In isolation it makes the place look like some sort of Shangri-La! But Shangri-La it ain't!

[yardman]

I'm on the Airbus and am still happy. Don't know if I'm the only one but I doubt it.

Yardman

[EGGW]

Yardman Just a quick guess on my part, are you Canadian or from the US. If so these colleagues seem to be only ones slightly happy.

Just my 0.02c

EGGW.

[yardman]

EGGW,
Now that would be telling wouldn't it:ok: Suffice it to say I'm not European, which could possibly account for my attitude. Also, this is my third international airline, and let's just say that I've seen a lot worse. Finally, I guess I'm just a 'glass half full' kind of guy.

Now, having said all of that, I don't believe in taking a shafting lying down. But because of my past experiences I guess I'm able to put the whole thing into perspective. If and when the bad points exceed the good and I think that it has become a permanent situation, then I'll happily walk away. But trust me, we're not even close to that situation yet.

The grass is always greener on the other side, remember that.

Yardman

[Shake]

Yardman:

You are able to put things into your perspective, and good luck to you.

I have also been with several airlines and EK is the worst of the lot...I guess I was lucky or was not abused to the extent that you were which has made EK in your perspective a good airline. Regardless, it doesn't make the situation here right, a situation which has deteriorated over the several years I have been here. I've reached my personal limit and am off over the fence to another lawn regardless of the shade of green.

The sadness is that the more people think that EK is ok because it is 'better than the last lot' the more it will be able to get away with and the slide downward will continue.

[yardman]

Shake,

I understand where you're coming from and I honestly wish you well wherever you go to. We are, as you know, a product of our experiences. Perhaps if I had joined EK 5 or so years ago when things were really good then maybe I would be a little more disgruntled. I know that our T's & C's are gradually being eroded. But show me an airline anywhere in the world where they are improving. It is the story of my life that every job I've joined has been just after the 'good times' have ended:sad: However I'm here. This is my reality. And I'll be here for a while yet until it suits me to move.

Now I have two choices while I'm here. I can whine and winge, and make myself and everyone else around me miserable, or I can can focus on the positives (and there still are many), whilst keeping abreast of developments in the global airline industry, so that should the day come when I feel I need to leave, then the transition will be a quick and as painless as possible.

Understand that I have no emotional attachment to Emirates or Dubai, but for the time being, given my particular situation, they are fulfilling a need for me and my family. Everyone's circumstances are different and I don't condemn anyone for their outlook or the choices that they make. In fact, I wish them all well. I don't post here regularly, but pprune does provide me with a great source of entertainment. However, in the interest of providing a balanced perspective I felt the need to let the folks out there know that there are still some contented pilots here at EK. How long that contentment will last, well only time will tell.

Yardman

[ratpoison]

Gee BYMONEK, glad you got home alright. My driver bloody near killed me the other night, but gee "the VOLVO was real nice".

[BYMONEK]

ratpoison

Sorry to hear about your near death experience on Dubai's infamous roads. If you don't trust the drivers, you've always got the option of driving yourself into work. Good luck!

[Desert Whine]

always have the option of driving yourself into workWe have?

In that case, would we only need to show up 1 hour before departure?

Does anyone do this?

Wouldn't that make it hard to be on the bus to the aircraft 1hr10min before dep with briefings and flight-planning all done??

What do other airlines do...?

[Dissapointed]

Does anyone do this?

Yes, me. I have more sleep at home and never had a call from fleet management yet. the petrol is cheap guys, I thoroughly reccomend it.

I also cal it practice. Practice that is for when I am going to have to do it anyway at my next job.

[rakedwings]

NOW DID YOU GUYS NOT KNOW?
Working in the middle east is like having a bucket of money in one hand and a bucket of sh.t in the other. As long as the bucket of goodies is heavier than the other bucket, it is all right.

Look at Qatar, their pilots were and are still ranting about this AAB dude and claim that there are more pilots leaving the airline than joining. Even then Qatar manages to get pilots, even the whining sort from all over the world.

Another fact is that a pre-req. for the management pilot at any airline is to be caster.ted, so it should be quite understandable as to why they have perfectly good ears and yet do nothing.

If the sh.t is heavier than the goodies than you have option to leave , but they will always find guys to fly.
Sad but true "IT WILL NEVER BITE THEM TO SEE PILOTS LEAVE".

RW:{

[Quod Boy]

BYMONEK and others,
I note your positive points,however after 11 years in the Prov Fund,with no AVCs in "managed equities",the "low risk" option my fund is 12000 USD LESS than the contributions.

It will buy me a nice a car but a good generous retirement it is not.

At least not if your planning life after EK in the 1st world.

Off to the pub.QB

[donpizmeov]

BYMONEK,

The paid for house thing ...hmmm...DIC contract runs out in 2007..so you have it till then. Well you will have to use that command pay for something right.

Don

[LHR Rain]

BYMONEK

Just a friendly reminder that EK starts drug testing in November and I suggest if you want to keep your "great" job here to get off the drugs.

[ratpoison]

Dissappointed,

You trying to tell us that you drive yourself to work and rock up at the CBC 1 hour before departure. By that time your mate is wondering where the hell you are and the rest of the crew are at the A/C. And yet the GOONS have not brought you in for a cup of tea and cookies. ??????

Rakedwings,

Sadly my friend, your words are very true.

[Desert Whine]

Someone's telling porky pies. Maybe that's what you wish or dream you do Mr. Disappointed??

I don't know, I just find it weird that there is so much you have to get done (at least 20-30min worth) after you sign on at the computer and before you get on the bus to the aircraft. But the bus leaves 10min before the actual sign on time that we write in the Voyage Report.

My math must be flawed because it looks like we're on duty without it being counted for about 40min or so every time we go to work.

[ernestkgann]

....not to mention the duty time after we chock on that isn't counted.

[BYMONEK]

I didn't expect to make a post like that and not receive replies.
That's why I posted the positives knowing full well there'd be plenty out there posting the negatives. The frustration that many of us have is that most of the problems here are easy to rectify with little or no cost to the Company.The analogy of the two buckets is often used in the Gulf and , i'd imagine, one that most of us use in a practical sense here in EK. If conditions were to deteriorate significantly such that the bad outweighed the good, i'd leave. My wife would ensure that! By then of course, there may be no containers left. There are,however, two points worth mentioning;

Provident Fund

This is something that affects us all. Unless you're a National of course where after only 15 years service you can look forward to 75% final salary for the rest of your life. Is that industry standard? I don't think so! For those few Airlines that still have FS schemes, 35 years service is the norm. For the rest of us though, we have to accept a provident fund that is poorly performing and is anything but actively managed. We need to pressure the Company into allowing us a more diverse range of funds to invest in. Funds which are available to the public and are accountable as such. If we did our jobs as badly as these so called money men, we'd have all been sacked yonks ago. Fidelity and Merill Lynch only have to make better than our EOB so hardly a strong incentive and room for sure for some creative accountancy. This is our future guys so start asking some difficult questions, especially you Quod Boy.

Report Times

Yes, interesting points that are brought up. In most Airlines it would be unheard of to turn up and start the actual brief up to 55 mins before report time. The Company culture here is a strong one and on the one occassion I did make my own way to work, was questioned why I was late when my 'official' report was not for another 20 minutes. We have no legal obligation to brief the CC before report so if the Company want us to, change the report time. If we're expected to brief as comprehensively as we do, then change the report time. BA do and it varies with type of operation so those on some flights, long haul/ ETOPS report at STD -80 minutes. And yes, it counts toward their FDL. And no, they're not expected to brief the CC. Personally, I prefer to use the Company transport and get in early so not to feel rushed but do take exception to being bollocked for turning up 20 minutes early!

How we go about trying to address these and other issues is a difficult one with few options available. Until the day we have a spokesperson for the whole Pilot body, we will continue to use forums like this as we know management read them. We also have the option of having the guts to go and speak to these people to highlight our grievances so that something MAY be done about it. Bitching and moaning at work may make us feel better, but it achieves little as we all know too well. Stick with the issues at hand and not the personalities.

Talking of 'personalities'. LHR Rain.........you're still not funny!

Regards BYMONEK

p.s Don, are fishing cause you ain't got the right fish yet!

[LHR Rain]

My commet was not intended to be funny. Just a sad observation on the EK pilots mindset.

[BYMONEK]

Didn't they tell you on your CRM course that you should never Generalize. You then, I take it, DON'T work for us otherwise that last 'commet' of yours would include yourself, right? :ok:

[Ghostflyer]

Bymonek,

I am reading your posts and smiling because, once long ago, I was just like you. When I came to EK nothing bad was written about the company, I was delighted to get the job and thought I had arrived in utopia. I am still more positive than negative but what a difference 6 years makes.

When I first arrived, I used to go to Scarletts with the boys for half priced piss and enjoyed my lifestyle. I used to quote to mates that it beat working for a living and that I averaged 18 days a month free from duty. I got a free house, a great medical package, schools etc etc. I used to sit in the back of the car with anal captains that spent all their time back-seat driving. Now I do the same.

So what went wrong? First I started to see the sand in between the skyscrapers, I got jingled every day and then my family were taken out on the roads, not EK's fault just part of living in Dubai. We used to be well compensated for it (In the 90s) but things had gradually started to deteriorate even before AAR and CK came up with their 'cost neutral scam'. Even after our recently trumpeted payrise we have not made back the cash that was cut when they changed the credit system. (Then again, maybe that's what they meant by 'cost neutral')

I was fine for the first 2 years and believed all they told me because I was shown a modicum of respect and when I worked days off or lost leave I felt it would be a transitory thing. What has actually happened is that the company have cut costs on the back of their employees. We used to have one of the lowest cost bases by percentage for labour in the industry but managed to keep most people happy by offering them a clear career path and vaguely sensible managerial decisions. Then they squeezed all the employees further, just because they could.

That has resulted in screwing over our quality of life. In 2000 some guys didn't get their leave because we were short, every year since the same has happened and it becomes even harder to get leave when we want it. They were asking for guys to give leave back in November with the promise of leave when ever you want it. Hmmm...really? Lots of guys are flying 20+ extra hours every month. Might pay some overtime but I for one would prefer to feel less tired, spend more time with my family and get leave when I wanted it, some of the time.

When I first arrived I'd help out and generally I might get something in return. Now if you help out some take it as a licence to abuse you. So I don't!

So what do I want. I'd just like the management to stand up, look me in the eye and tell me that they have screwed the pooch. They have made a mistake, the crewing levels are inappropriate for a ULH airline and they are taking steps to rectify things. Then if they said 'in the mean time you'll have to work a bit harder' I might be inclined to help because things were going to improve. When asked directly, TCAS said that he was not worried about the number of pilots or resourcing in general. What that really means is that the sitch we are in at the moment isn't gonna get any better.

So what can we do about it?

Well if you haven't joined yet make sure it really is for you. Job security is good, pay average, working conditions ok, command prospects a real worry. This market is opening up to competition from both around the gulf and the sub-continent. I cannot believe that Qatar, Etihad, Gulf and EK will all bring their big plans to fruition.

If you are here already you can either leave or stay. Many though are trapped. It is easy to say leave but starting at the bottom of the pile again in your late 40s is not the place to be for many of us. Change it, go into management...yeah right. EK management lesson 101 in how to succeed.

Boss "#$**&$##"........................ You "Yes"
Boss "22345te%^46^#@"........... You "Yes"

Opinions are like arseholes, we all have one and they usually stink. It will be interesting to see where you stand in 3 years, I bet you take a bit more jaundiced view. If the command thing has come to pass you'll probably be ok. I shudder to think what it will be like for guys joining now without even that carrot to hang on to. But the biggy still stands that until the management stand up and admit they have under-resourced the entire airline things can only get worse.

Ghost

[BYLAW]

BYMONEK, you`re a bit pretentious.

However I like your idea about the pilot body. Why don`t you go ahead and start an underground organisation, just like the unions did ages ago in the first world. This country, with its lack of any revolution we had; French-, industrial-, sexual- etc., desperately needs reform in any way possible. Just like any other Arab country, as a matter of fact.

Whining is good, but it`s now time to act before things get worse.

How can you expect a workforce, pilots including, keep their interest in an airline that is runned like a 1960`s British hospital in the middle of East Yorkshire, where the director of surgery is a sheepherder?

Promises, promises, I guess.

If we just sit here and do absolutely nothing than spent our ever decreasing income on Dubai gadgets nothing will happen.

Issues have to be adressed and sorted before EK becomes another airline that used to be good.

[BYMONEK]

Ghost

A lot of what you've just said hits the nail squarely on the head. I don't disagree with you because not only are there friends of mine who have been here the same time and feel the same way as you, but I too have been disadvantaged by a change in policy that was implemented during my initial training. I didn't like it but could do little to change it. As you quite rightly say, advise all those out there of the pitfalls in coming but I also think it's fair to point out the positives as well. Regarding those 18 days off you used to have, in my 20 years of flying i've never enjoyed that luxury but I can empathise with you and those that used to enjoy the Halcyon days.That's why it seems worse for you guys than for us newbies.

BYLAW

What's 'pretentious' about expecting a provident fund to perform well? I'm achieving a greater return on a UK cash deposit account. This last 12-18 months has seen some stellar rises in share values but our fund managers must have been away on leave for a year or two........or spending the true gains down at Cyclones!

[Quod Boy]

BYMONEK,

Do you not think I havent asked why my PF is 12,000 USD less than I paid in after 11 years??

Well I have many times and I get a lengthy mealy mouthed complicated response with charts and graphs,etc etc.But no reply which I can understand.

2 questions:- If the "target" is to match EOSB then Id have been better off putting 11 years contributions under the mattress.I dont understand the stock market thats why I have NO CHOICE but to place it with the PF and the clowns who run it for us.

Finally why does it take from the 26th(pay day) each month until the 9th of the next month to transfer into the PF??

Multiply that lot by 1500 pilots and the others thats a lot of interest.Our PF has the potential to be huge,yet again our "managers" hear and say nothing.

Ever wondered why the dreary money men who come out for the 6 monthly meetings to address us travel in First Class??

Keep discovering.The PF has been a huge disappointment.

QB

[Jack D]

I think that the poorly managed provident fund is one area,

perhaps the only one , where a concerted effort on our part

can bring about change . It should have pilot representatives

on board and proper administrators to ensure a better return .


At the moment it appears to be a bit of a scam , that,s not to

say that the "C" accounts have performed badly, in some cases

they have done very well this year . This however has not been

reflected in the performance of the other funds. It is time for a

shake up ,either a move to other managers or an increase in

avialable products with active management of same . Many

funds are a waste of money, but the charges incurred ; although

we are told there are no charges , are significant . The provident

fund itself is quite large in terms of market value and

would represent an interesting proposition for a good asset

management team . The bottom line is who,s money is it

anyway ? Anyone got any suggestions as to how we can

influence or change this state of affairs .

[BYMONEK]

JackD

That was my point regarding fund choice, or rather the lack of it in our case. If we could select and use a wider range of products for the A & B funds, one's that are available to the general public, then the funds would need to perform well to attract investors on the open market. With our scheme there is simply no accountability at all. As you say, all suggestions welcome.