LYNX FLEET - WHAT NOW

[PVR]

INTENTIONALLY BLANK


[This message has been edited by PVR (edited 18 January 2000).]

[Chicken Leg]

No ideas and no sugestions. Its only a matter of time until the next disaster. I rather liked the idea being banded about during the last week or two about grounding them all until someone produces a good idea. Still, I suppose that would'nt suit everyone. Good luck.

[AVM]

PVR.. As this is a somewhat serious matter I have no wish to enter into an ill disciplined forum; however, rest assured that your concerns are being monitored closely.

[Pinger]

Gawd 'elp 'em all when the Apache comes along..... http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[Chicken Leg]

AVM is absoluteley spot on when he says this is a serious matter. We can all do our bit to ensure that we continue to highlight our concerns and thoughts. I'm convinced that if we were honest, most of us could justify writing ACORN's on a very regular basis. We do however, to a certain extent, accept the problems and often even laugh them off. AVM.. If you are who your UserName suggests that you are, then be under no illusion that certain operators of this aircraft are finding it increasingly more difficult to instil confidence in newer members of our trade and I would say all, to some extent, will not be surprised to here the next piece of tragic news. The original problem ie. spares is having a massive knock on effect on basic skills to the extent where I'm more than happy to continue to use the above UserName.

[PurplePitot]

I haven't met one AVM yet who could blunder onto this site, yet alone speak up for the AAC, so come on AVM - Spill the beans!!!

[PurplePitot]

With reference to pingers message I can only agree. The AAC has, over the last four years lost most of its most able pilots - I know because I am one of them ( I think!) - basically anyone with more than 2000 hours has banged out and now works for PAS, MACS etc, this leaves the AAC extremely short of long term, high time pilots. I hope they do well with the Apache but until the Corps realise that the commander on the ground wants to win the war with an extremely potent and proven machine which warrants pilots who train specifically to achieve that aim instead of RSM, SSM groundcrew orientated BFT, CFT training once/twice a week which normally starts at 0730 after an intensive NVG training night which finished at 0200. Flying in the AAC is most definitely an extra curricular activity!!!!

Let the AVM have em!!!!

[PurplePitot]

Here I go again (It’s amazing what a few bottles of red will do!) I have been flying the Lynx for twenty years and I rate it very highly indeed. It is an extremely competent helicopter and I stand by these comments by being one of the first to fly it again, without a qualm, after the Les Berrisford disaster, and urging many a junior pilot to do likewise and have faith in what they fly. One must have a certain belief in fate as a helicopter pilot after all!

The problem with spares as many a politician will tell you, does not lie with Westlands, they are a commercial company and would dearly love to sell the MOD heaps of Ac bits to lie around in a vast hangars until required. No, the problem lies with a government deeply reluctant to spend anything at all on Defence that is not required not now, but RIGHT NOW. They save money left right and centre by keeping the UK based machines on the ground knowing that as soon as they are deployed all the funds required to get pilots up to speed and the Ac fully serviceable are provided direct from the treasury and not out of the MOD(AAC) budget. Any disagreements with this statement should be directed to Mr Paddy Ashdown MP

I am feeling quite tired now and am going for a short lie down - Happy New Year everybody!!!!


[This message has been edited by PurplePitot (edited 28 December 1999).]

[Pinger]

Yes, pilots may be a problem, but its only a helo at the end of the day and were all used to that.
My worry with the Apache is more fundamental. Just who the hell is going to maintain the beast? My understanding (and I hope Im wrong) is that the AAC struggled for years to get on top of the Lynx, being so big a step up from the Gaz, Alouette and Sioux. Apache is 2 orders of magnitude more complex than Lynx. I gather even the Yanks find maintenance a handful. What chance has the AAC? Do the workshops have the technical experience? Do Westland?

[PurplePitot]

Quite right pinger, the maintenance of the AAC operated Ac is of course carried out by the REME and they are responsible for one of the biggest splits in the AAC barring of course the aircrew, groundcrew divide. I disagree that the 64 is only two orders of magnitude removed from the Lx or Gz as it easily on a par with the Tornado, Harrier etc. Much greater methinks!

I can confirm that the REME do not have trained radar avionic greenies or as yet armourers for the comprehensive weapon suite and they will be reduced to that of "Black box changers" with much of the hands on maintenance being done by Westlands themselves who are building third line maintenance facilities at 'What-a-shame'. Much of the training (read all!) will be carried out in simulators and the Ac themselves will be subject to my earlier comments (re: Paddy Ashdown)

It will be interesting to see how the corps cope with their introduction as most of the current operating procedures cannot possibly cover the secret nature of most of the Ac systems, maybe I am wrong, but most of the avionics are highly classified which prevents most individuals from even looking into the cockpit (ie: groundcrew) and this problem had not even begun to be addressed when I left.

[PurplePitot]

Just picked up on the fact that AVM called us an ill disciplined lot!!!!

No Comment from me. I will leave that to Leading Edge, Chip Lite etc.

Go for the jugular boys.

[vortex842]

The latest on Lynx servicabilty is a letter produced by the JHC, in which various actions were suggested;

1. Scrap the fleet
2. throw £380.000.000 at westlands
3. grounded for 6 months to let the spares come on line
4. new buy airframe

The lynx problem will never go away, from the tiebar fiasco to module 1

[This message has been edited by vortex842 (edited 29 December 1999).]

[leading edge]

Sorry boys, keeping out of this one as I am a civvy and no knothing about Lynx helicopters other than they seem to drop lots of oil wherever they land!! I thought that the Allison Engine S76 had a lot of oil leaks until I saw a Lynx!!

LE

[PNVS]

The WAH 64 will have problems, but not the same as the Lynx has at the mo, 2.2 Billion sheets of paper to GKN and ATIL will go a long way towards easing the kit in. It is on time ish, (well the last year any how and a lot better than Merlin! EF2000!!!, Nimrod and every other bit of aviation equipment that is coming in) the big change is that spares are paid up front and done and dusted. The red herring of who will look after them is sorted the REME could look after any thing flying today and tomorrow with the normal training. There are lots of them with the first few new aircraft when I could think of much better things it could and should be doing. ie flying.

[Pinger]

PNVS, perhaps ive misunderstood your post, but it seems to say that worries over the AH64 maintenance program is a red herring as it is all sorted and the REME can cope with anything flying.

Forgive me for asking what experience the redoubtable REME has in maintaining aircraft of the complexity of Tornado or worse (which even the crabs struggle with, 20 yrs later) when its most complex task to date is the relatively simple Lynx.

I think this notion that REME could maintain anything given a course or two is a dream, with no experience or background in this level of complexity no one can realistically do a thorough job, I agree with Purple Pilot, black box changers is the future.
A few courses do not an expert make.

Sorry.

[PVR]

The REME will not so much "fix" as "replace" anything that isn't working. The reason ourselves, the Saudi's, Egyptions, Greece and some other less technical nations have choosen AH64 is it is fixed by box changing not rocket science. Must dash to make a euro slot, will continue this later.....!

[sparecrew]

I wonder if the real AVM, whose surname is Niven by the way, will wonder where his anti-armour capability had gone for the 4 years(minimum) it will take to get an AH64 ready to fight , since so few of the serviceable Lynx fleet could get a photon down range!

[2's forward 1's back]

To pingers comments about the Lynx being simple to work on, I think he should consider the Lynx is very old technology compared to the AH 64. Though Iagree the REME will be all on to cope with the AH. This will be as a result of going on platton attacks at dawn and running 8 mile CFT's though.

[capt waffoo]

oops!

[This message has been edited by capt waffoo (edited 04 January 2000).]

[Sloppy Link]

Back to the original point, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the cockpit. There are plenty of other jobs out there, catering, cleaning, production line and so on. Part of the job is an element of risk so stopn whining and get on with it.

[PVR]

Good job I know you and realise you are only in search of a bite!

[vortex842]

PVR,
I know you,
I Know where you live,
and I Know what what your job for the rest of this year is !!!!

[PVR]

Vortex, I'm glad you know! It's good to know someone does. I suppose you will be learning how to pull through the chain gun in time for the new toy's arrival!

[vortex842]

PVR,
that sounds like an excellent idea, PVR I mean, not pulling M230's through!

[Cyclic Hotline]

As I have never operated a Lynx, I have a simple question.
Is the Lynx any good?
As it is solely a military aircraft, it's exposure is limited to those who operated them in the military. I have never really been around this machine, other than on the ramp and watching them operate around our commercial ops. The commercial variant was proposed and never appeared, and the derivative WG30 appeared and disappeared without trace.
What kind of performance, endurance, range, etc, does this machine have? Is it practical, reliable and maintainable? What military and commercial machines would be equivalent, in terms of performance or operations?
I was just reading in "Overhaul and Maintenance" magazine, that amongst other options being considered to retain the fleet, that re-airframing was one solution, and the Danish fleet was currently accomplishing this.
Could anyone other than Government entities and the military ever consider re-airframing an existing aircraft, as a viable and practical undertaking?
I have read elsewhere in this thread, comments extolling the virtues of this machine, but just wondered about the overall operational aspects of the machine.

[PNVS]

Plain and simple to your question CH.
NO.

[Mr.Proach]

The Lynx is a fantastic machine. It's VERY powerful, handles exeptionally well and is forgiving of all but the most severe mishandling. I think most Lynx boys would agree. The problem is that it is very expensive and difficult to maintain. when they have the tits flown off them, e.g. NI they work well and stay reasonably serviceable. It's when there're flown stop start fashion that they really tend to meld with the hanger floor. Hanger queens rapidly become christmas trees for the benefit of others that require spares. The twin engine testosterone monster is a good aircraft, it just consumes vast amounts of cash and spares.
PNVS, your clearly a frustrated Lynx man, Floppy puke by any chance?

[This message has been edited by Mr.Proach (edited 14 January 2000).]

[PNVS]

Mr.Proach,
No I am not.

[Tips]

Mr Proach, (corking name by the way) you are right in all that you say. CH, the Lx is a truly great AC to fly but an absolute nightmare to maintain. A lot of people give the aircraft a hard time but I am willing to bet that a great number of them have never actually flown it, but are content to stay on a simple machine and slag it off without having experienced the old Twin Engined, Rolls Royce Mobile Sexual Tyrannosaurus. :) Sure it has faults but most of the people who have flown it for any amount of time have a healthy regard for it. If spares procurement had been correctly administered years ago we would be in a far more healthy state of affairs right now.

[This message has been edited by Tips (edited 14 January 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Tips (edited 14 January 2000).]

[64av8or]

To add to the Lynx suitability question, PNVS, although a closet SE type, is correct in what he/she says. The Lynx is good for military punchy flying and a great display aircraft. It would never suit the civil market as it is noisy, uncomfortable and expensive to run. Those who have flown it respect it and the wiser pilots know exactly how far to push it as it can bite back real hard!

[2's forward 1's back]

PNVS.
Are you not;
1. Floppy pilot.
2. Want to be Lynx pilot.
My guess is yes to both.

[Mr.Proach]

PNVS,
We've got your number son. If ever someone was an araldite pursuit ship warrior then it has to be you. So check your T4, fly at IPS, and go annoy someone else with your HONTI. (Helicopter of no tactical importance)

[PVR]

WHOOP- WHOOP!! The atlantic Conveyor has birthed here in Suffolk!

We can go and restore ourselves over the Flatlands and annoy the coneheads once again.
I apologise to who ever ordered the bucket of goodies that have arrived here, I'll get you a beer next time I'm down in Hants.

[2's forward 1's back]

PVR
You must have been over Felixtowe on an airtest, I was on the fairground, I thought I heared the pointless whining of a Gazelle overhead.

[HeliAv8tor]

Well all you AAC pilots, I must say I told you all so last year before I left. My advice is the same, get a licence, get a real job, get out and get a life. Until the AAC gets away from soldier first and pilots second you will always get a raw deal. Wake up why not be a professional pilot with good military skills and then the quality of life for you may improve. As to the Lynx, as an ex-QHI with +2500 hours on the beast, it is an extremely capable helo. However, the fudging of serviceability figures over the past 20 years by officers who should have known better has created a total fiasco. As to the Apache, the AAC will front it. It will not be allowed to fail, however the service given by those who eventually fly it may not very professionally, but that is not due to the calibre of the pilot, but more do to the poor management skills of those command them. PS. Gary, best regards and a happy new year to you and to all you fellow rotary wing aviators.

[TwinTorque]

Well it has been said by everyone except PNVS who seems to shy away from flying a real mans aircraft and wants to stay on a training aircarft. More power to you mind, flying around in a constant state of emergency with your one engine. As to the Apache when the AAC gets it it will fail because the Army has deemed it reasonable to place ab initio officers in it and they will not be able to cope. The AAC has this in built ability to be able to miss manage everything and is probably the most disorganised bunch of aviators this side of the Urals.

[HeliAv8tor]

TwinTorque, I like the cut of yer tail rotor old chap. Sentiments well expessed. Most of the experienced aviators (I count myself in this) packed up and left long ago, mainly because we believed in our ability as professional aviators. I am thankfull to the AAC for teaching me to fly and giving me the 4000+ hours to hone my skills. However, unfortunately they have lost their way. In my opinion mainly due to officers playing career roulette. Stating to higher authorities that there is nothing wrong with my Sqn/Regt, that there is no shortfall in spares, training hours, quality of life or moral and the list goes on. I truly hope that the lesson, albeit a hard one is being learnt by those who are responcible for and can (If they have the metal for it) make change for the better. As to Lynx, its one of the best rotary wing aircraft I have had the pleasure to have flown. Happy and safe aviating to you all :)

[Max Transient]

Dear Cyclic Hotline,
Yes, actually, the Lynx is a delight to fly. It has one or 2 bad habits but what aircraft from that era dosn't. It's fast, it's outrageously agile and can stop on a sixpence if that's what you want it to do. I've clocked up over 3000 hours in the thing and was more than happy to carry on flying it after it's more recent failures. The problem with the Lynx fleet lies not with the aircraft rather with the poor management of the fleet, a complete lack of foresight into the future requirements of both the aircraft, it's users and operators; and, as you will not be surprised to hear, a bunch of politicians unwilling to spend anything on anything unless they really, really have to.

[Gem]

The Lynx is without doubt a awesome aircraft to fly, it is a pleasure each and every time you fly if (except perhap's on the really bad vib run's!!).

Equally, it has had 3 major accidents now in 18 month's.

Is it the airframe, the crew or the system? Well crews are current at best and getting the spares is like getting blood from a stone.

[SARcastic]

Who cares what happens to the Lynx - its been around too long and should be replaced anyway. Problem is the Apache is not quite as redhot as the manufacturer makes out - I wonder if it will take 15 years to get that to a mark 8 ??

[Grey Area]

I agree the Lynx is a cracking beast to fly. It's fast, VERY agile and for its day had a lot of power. BUT it vibrates like hell and needs loadsa maintaining, particularly of the mission equip, whatever your fit, which doesn't like vibration. All in all it's a great helicopter but a not so hot as a mission platform; why do you think Sea Lynx is getting stuffed by Sea Sprite every time for new contracts? Sprite is older but kinder on mission systems, it's agile enough and big enough. After all who goes shopping in a Ferrari? Apart from Airline Pilots! :)

[PurplePitot]

Hi Gem - Make that 4!. See my post in 'Military Pilots'

[Pegasus#]

Grey Area,
Super Lynx is getting stuffed by SeaSprite for simple reasons of size: T700 engines vs Gems of any type means SeaSprite can carry BIG, heavy anti-ship missiles (Penguin in particular) FAR further. However, you do need a slightly bigger deck, and what happens to SeaSprite support to overseas operators when the USN retire it in 2 years? An interesting issue for Kaman, while Litton may JUST have got the mission systems for the Australians working by then.
(Sorry, I forgot, a non-UK company screwing up a non-UK programme is of no interest to the "bash all contractors" contributors on this BB; we prefer national self-denigration).