Types of managements at EVA & CAL...

[etops777]

The texts below is just an example of how the company is run in Taiwan. Threats managements!!!!:yuk:

I note with interest and disgust the latest posting of a Green Tail Teller article by Captain Manzano from the 747 fleet. I find it both demeaning and threatening and will likely serve no purpose but to "piss off" his troops.



Examples of the message:


"Aside from the above mentioned event, there have also been other discipline events like not using reflective vest for walk around, one pilot dismissed from the company for failing alcohol breath test, improper language on ATC frequency and pilots missing flight assignments.

"Common denominator for the above mentioned events is lack of discipline. The lack of discipline to follow set policies and SOPs that are in place to capture the errors consequential to the threats.

"It is unfortunate that these events have placed our fleet in a bad light.

"To enable us to monitor and strengthen fleet performance, we plan to increase the number of spot checks and line inspections. So, you can expect Tony Lin, David Keng, Perry Poon, James Kuo or myself to join your flight or simulator sessions unannounced.

"Additionally, we have also made arrangement with Check Airmen from other fleets to conduct spot checks and line inspection for us.

" There may be other changes to follow with the aim of improving our performance. This will be announced accordingly.

" In the meantime, we want you to understand and be aware that everything we do has its consequences. It can be a credit for a job well done or the discipline that follows a violation or incident. We must understand that this is a fact. Please think twice before doing anything. "




I suppose "floggings will continue until morale improves."



Edited by ButtCaptain on October 03 2005 at 10:26pm

__________________
"But, Captain..."

[Thermal Image]

I'll just take the first so-called example of a "threat":

"Aside from the above mentioned event, there have also been other discipline events like not using reflective vest for walk around, one pilot dismissed from the company for failing alcohol breath test, improper language on ATC frequency and pilots missing flight assignments.

Therefore are you saying that if you were in charge of operations, that such events are actually not "discipline events", and/or such things are otherwise quite acceptable occurences?

You mean you would not sack someone for failing an alcohol breath test?

[typhoonpilot]

I think what he is trying to say is that their is a tendency to lead by fear and intimidation as opposed to leading by example. The idea of having spot checks is ridiculous and will lead to a culture of fear which does nothing to improve the airline other than creating automatons who blindly follow policy even when it isn't prudent. They'll end up with a bunch of brown nosing snitches and others who are too afraid to do the right thing. It isn't the kind of environment that I would want to work in.

Typhoonpilot

[Foreign Worker]

"To enable us to monitor and strengthen fleet performance, we plan to increase the number of spot checks and line inspections. So, you can expect Tony Lin, David Keng, Perry Poon, James Kuo or myself to join your flight or simulator sessions unannounced."
SIEG HEIL

[29chev]

Foreign Worker

You are way over the top on your post .. I'm no fan of the b-ll sh-t in TPE but...make good comments say what you need to but what you are doing is distastfull and disrespectfull to say the least
29

[BlueEagle]

Just a bit too much with the picture included Foreign Worker.

[Medwin]

Yeah foreignworker, I'm offended.
shame, shame, shame.

[Thermal Image]

I think what he is trying to say is that their is a tendency to lead by fear and intimidation as opposed to leading by example. The idea of having spot checks is ridiculous and will lead to a culture of fear which does nothing to improve the airline other than creating automatons who blindly follow policy even when it isn't prudent. They'll end up with a bunch of brown nosing snitches and others who are too afraid to do the right thing. It isn't the kind of environment that I would want to work in.

OK, so how is having spot checks "ridiculous"?

Is it not better for the personnel named, to conduct the checks themselves and observe first hand what is happening, instead of relying on "a bunch of brown nosing snitches", as you have put it?

When are checks most effective? When they are planned and therefore expected? Or when they are unexpected?

How does this "lead to a culture of fear"? Are you not a conscientious pilot who conducts himself more or less the same way whether or not he is doing a base check or a line check?

Or do you produce work that is in conformance with policy, SOP and performance standards only on those special days but otherwise come to work drunk, drugged or with a bad attitude?

If you have a problem with crew who "blindly follow policy even when it isn't prudent", then is it not also your job as a conscientious crewman to raise these issues and get the wrong policies corrected the proper way, instead of doing as you please?

[unruly]

If you have been "doing the right thing" in the first place, then there is no need to fear any check, right? This may have been issued as a reminder for everyone that there WAS and IS a safety policy in place that any professional pilot working there should have been aware of.

Of course, sucking arse is present in any organization, be it asian or western. And I'm pretty sure EVA and CAL have a few suckers in their midst. It is just human nature. Some people are born into it, some make it into an art form! But to judge a safety policy to lead into such is a bit over the edge.

[xtwapilot]

Gents:
Just trying to get some info, I have been invited to an interview, however am quiet hesitant about going because I have heard very negative things about CAL. I am currently on the 747 classic and will upgrade within the next 6 months. I was sent contract highlights but no payscale info. I would like to know, it is true that there is no opportunity for upgrade for expats? Also what are the current payrates? I have heard anywhere from 4600-5100 per month, for me that is a paycut and quiet low to fly a 747. Any info you gents can pass along would be greatly appreciated.

[sky330]

To xtwapilot,

will upgrade within the next 6 months.

So why not wait two years and comes as captain ?? Just an idea.

No upgrade for expats,

Last rumour gives even lower salary for F/O, check carefully before signing!

[GlueBall]

5100 per month? Is that U.S. Dollars? For 74 Captain...forget it. :{

[Medwin]

I just got hired as an FO there and the contract that I signed is showing a monthly income (after doing the math) of US$5,100 to $6,000.
They also made it clear that they do upgrade expats, they have over 50 different nationalities over there and they upgrade by seniority not by nationality. How true, that's for me to find out. :cool:

[29chev]

Medwin,

they upgrade by seniority not by nationality

Not true they do upgrade the odd token expat but for the most part it is locals first everyone else next ...they don't even upgrade the local pilots in order of seniority...it's mostly a political selection as in who spent the most of their days off working for free in the office. Also the locals need only 4000 hours logged to upgrade , expats are only considered if no locals meet the min qualification numbers.

xtwapilot

if you can get a 747 left seat where you are get it ....don't come as an F/O .

18 months ago 744 f/o started at 5300/month for 70hours then it went to 5100 now 4500 but most of the new guys don't have a type rateing so need a long course you would get a short course

these amounts do not include perdiem (4-600/month) or houseing about 1000 as a f/o more for a capt

get your left seat where you are or better yet apply to parc aviation for the NCA contract on a 742 way way better pay
29

[etops777]

29chev

well said!!:ok:

[xtwapilot]

Thanks folks, I had pretty well made up my mind about not taking the job because I sent them a message to give me the payscales several days ago and no answer yet. Also everything that I have read here really put the last nail in the coffin for me. Thanks again. BTW I think one of the biggest problems, at least it seems to me is that they can get people to work for 3300/month, if they couldn't, perhaps they would have to rethink things. Thanks again all.

Xtwapilot

[Undecided username]

Thermal, just to shed some light onthe subject......

OK, so how is having spot checks "ridiculous"?

Its not. But when the Chief Pilot or a CA has a personal vendeta, then it is.

Is it not better for the personnel named, to conduct the checks themselves and observe first hand what is happening, instead of relying on "a bunch of brown nosing snitches", as you have put it?

See above.

When are checks most effective? When they are planned and therefore expected? Or when they are unexpected?

See above again.

How does this "lead to a culture of fear"? Are you not a conscientious pilot who conducts himself more or less the same way whether or not he is doing a base check or a line check?

Fear......

How about getting a review board for not wearing your reflective safety vest (picture was taken by a station manager somewhere).

Or some cabin crew that were fired recently for taking the unused bread off the plane AFTER the flight.

Doing a GA after being in reverse for 7 seconds on the ground because the captain thought he was unstable and if we go do a GA, then all is OK.

Landing a 747 with less than 4T (total fuel) after he thought he had an unstable approach.

How about being bypassed for an upgrade because you took too may days off after one of your parents passing away.

Being bypassed for an upgrade because you took too many days off for a surgery you had.

Being punished (though a bad schedule) because you didn't get in to your destination airport and had to divert causing delays and hassle for the company.

Or do you produce work that is in conformance with policy, SOP and performance standards only on those special days but otherwise come to work drunk, drugged or with a bad attitude?

The BAC limit is .02 (not a typo either). I can trigger that with a fart.

If you have a problem with crew who "blindly follow policy even when it isn't prudent", then is it not also your job as a conscientious crewman to raise these issues and get the wrong policies corrected the proper way, instead of doing as you please?

Raise issues. Now you are labeled a bad guy and you are now on the black list. Go to top of page, read answer #1.

Not to mention ALL annual leave has been cancelled and days off shortened, outstation basings cancelled (or to be cancelled).

Read all about it here:

http://nankantraz.org/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1

[dai chon doi]

Ah lovely
Here we are squabbling amongst our professional selves largely around the indefensible. Average airline mgt must just love us.
MEDWIN
Please do us a favour, keep all these posts that you've posted,and the threads leading to them and revisit them in say 12 months time, a great deal of line pilots at EVA would be very interested in your views then, I sincerely hope your outlook is as positive.
THERMAL IMAGE
What started this post is a view shared by essentially a large majority of the line pilots at EVA. And thats that the company has little regard for the pilot body welfare, or its views. There's a genuine feeling that the mgt are quite prepared to use all avenues to achieve its goals. I doubt that anybody is defending that an airline shouldn't have the right to invigilate a standard, spot standards checks etc.. but there's a real sense of over intimidation with a untransparent punishment system. This is real... And is not normal in any well run successful airline, with a proavtive operations management.

[Thermal Image]

Your post is a clever mix of valid and invalid grouses. The stuff of a good story.

The first post by etops777 had no background to what he had posted, so he presented a weak case and ended up looking like some unhappy grumbler ranting away.

Now that you have provided more information, it might be more believable that there are indeed some evil and nasty types in CAL / EVA management waiting to get you. But this is not unusual at all. In just about every airline there will be some characters like that and sometimes they become senior enough.

If there is a bully in your group are you also not responsible if you passively allowed him to become that way? Or are you going to say that he is where he is, completely on his own "merit", in spite of concerted efforts to stop him from getting there?

So let's take your first remark about the safety vest. Is it your suggestion that a "review board" is much too harsh a punishment for not wearing the reflective vest? Since there is clear proof that the event took place, it cannot be mere accusation. Was it already clear to crew that they were to wear the vest (itself a safety-based, very legitimate instruction), and that failure to do so can result in review board consequences? Or was the review board an absurd consequence / abuse of power? Why have you left out such details? You need to be more convincing.

Moving on to the cabin crew being fired for the bread: SIA has also fired crew for similar incidents. They knew it was an offence. They took leftovers, got caught, were investigated and fired, end of story. In the case you mentioned, did the crew know that they were not to do such things? On the other hand, if your company has nothing in writing that prohibits the following, do you therefore then siphon out the kerosene from your tanks if actual burnoff is less than planned burnoff "AFTER" (following your example of using uppercase) a flight?

And finally, your remarks about the 0.02 BAC limit. Sweden also has a 0.02 limit. But to say that you can trigger that with a fart reveals your attitude towards instructions, authority and discipline.

Since there is such an obvious mismatch of expectations, and CAL or EVA management ain't leaving, then just put your money where your mouth is and leave.

[dai chon doi]

Thermal Image

I've never been really in favour of accusing other pilots of being "a story teller, or a grumbler" on a rumour or discussion forum, such as this, I find it all a bit distasteful really. And i'm not sure at all if you work for EVA or have friends that do, this often helps in raising an opinion I find. But anyway, entitled to your own view you are. You're absolutely correct that an airline does have an obligation to assert a standard and to invigilate that with its workforce. But what is extremely worrying at EVA is that this is all done in a non constructive manner that is totally demoralising. What is most unfortunate is that most are following your sage like advice and are leaving

[typhoonpilot]

Thermal Image:

I know this will be a bit like tilting at windmills. Somebody with your kind of mentality would fit in real well at an airline that thinks abuse of employees is the way to good discipline. Your comments/examples below are a clear indication of that. Lets take them one at a time, shall we?

"Is it your suggestion that a "review board" is much too harsh a punishment for not wearing the reflective vest? Since there is clear proof that the event took place, it cannot be mere accusation. Was it already clear to crew that they were to wear the vest (itself a safety-based, very legitimate instruction), and that failure to do so can result in review board consequences? Or was the review board an absurd consequence / abuse of power? Why have you left out such details? You need to be more convincing."

Um, yes, a review board is way over the top. How about just mentioning to the guy that it is required to wear a vest at most international airports ? Perhaps he was from the States where it is not common practice and he forgot it. Simple and effective method to get the point across without being too draconian. The method takes all of 5 seconds and it doesn't become an example of management abuse on Pprune.

"Moving on to the cabin crew being fired for the bread: SIA has also fired crew for similar incidents. They knew it was an offence. They took leftovers, got caught, were investigated and fired, end of story. In the case you mentioned, did the crew know that they were not to do such things? On the other hand, if your company has nothing in writing that prohibits the following, do you therefore then siphon out the kerosene from your tanks if actual burnoff is less than planned burnoff "AFTER" (following your example of using uppercase) a flight?"

Taking company stores off fo an airplane is a fine line. It would depend on company policy, but most companies have the realistic attitude that if it is a perishable item and has already been opened ( such as bread ) then it is okay. Your example of siphoning fuel out of the tanks is stupid and completely irrational.

"And finally, your remarks about the 0.02 BAC limit. Sweden also has a 0.02 limit. But to say that you can trigger that with a fart reveals your attitude towards instructions, authority and discipline."

This ones a bit more tricky, I think UU was trying to say that is a very low trigger point and that something like mouthwash ( which contains some alcohol ) use could trigger a positive test. What then ?, get fired for having fresh breath ? Good digital analysers will give you accuracy to within a very impressive 0.01%. :rolleyes: So there would need to be a process for another confirmation test if one did indeed blow positive. I don't know the facts of any positive tests at EVA, nor the process, but one would hope they have a follow-up test and don't just rely on a single breath test that could be inaccurate. I'm sure such a process exists in Sweden.

"Since there is such an obvious mismatch of expectations, and CAL or EVA management ain't leaving, then just put your money where your mouth is and leave."

Etops did leave and I won't go, for these and other reasons.


Typhoonpilot

[dai chon doi]

MEDWIN

Hopefully you've started at EVA or very shortly will be, I know I said i'd like your views on the company in a years time, but given that we now have pilots resigning before even completing training, (apparently these chaps happened to agree with undecided username's views on EVA, ) it would be interesting to hear your views whilst you're under training. I would normally wait until at least you've finished line training, but who knows.

[Undecided username]

Typhoon

Nicely said.

Thermal

Since there is such an obvious mismatch of expectations, and CAL or EVA management ain't leaving, then just put your money where your mouth is and leave.
Already did. :ok: Get a life !!:mad:

[poohdog]

at one stage i was applying for both of these airlines as a way to get some heavy time, but after talking to crews at heathrow positioning home to all sorts of distant places i think not. i did a search on this site and came across www.nankantraz.org there sure are some unhappy men out there.

[Undecided username]

Found a link about CAL. Same thing.

AAIGUY
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
posted 31st August 2005 21:53
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you look at my intial posts I was very keen on CAL. It SEEMED to offer everything.

As I got further into the process I realized it was all lies. They will do anything they can to get you to sign the bond and join. Then they will change it all. You will have no recourse.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=103478&perpage=20&pagenumber=9

[Medwin]

dai chon doi,

I don't know if you read my post correctly, I didn't express any opinion about the company at all, all I said was what they told me during the interview and what I saw on the contract.
Believe me when I say "I have good reasons why I'm joining this company". And if anyone of you interested to find out what those are, feel free to PM me.

Med

[Thermal Image]

Thank you for demonstrating that you are just a good storyteller and nothing more.

You have provided no further details when questioned point blank about the incidents you claimed happened. At least dai chon doi is mature enough to reason with me.

Instead you resort to making personal attacks like Get A Life *censored*. What's the matter? Can dish it out but can't take it? The way you present your case just makes you look like a whiner. It may be true that a whole bunch of other foreigners share your feelings about Eva, but your one-sided bitching just makes you look like a pussy.

It's therefore not surprising why you and your ilk (hey, no need to get them to do a gangbang on me) could not fit in, especially as guest workers in a foreign country, especially with an attitude such as "I could trigger that with a fart".

I'm sure more than your employers said good riddance to you when you finally left.

[dai chon doi]

MEDWIN

Quite the contrary, I read all your posts very carefully indeed before posting a reply. And there's a real inference if not a strict out opinion. But that's splitting hair's right. Myself and many others here at Eva will be and are simply gagging to find out your reason(s) for joining Eva. And i'm sure they're all perfectly good ones at that. Remember the original thread regarded the quality or lack thereof of the operational management at Eva and Cal. There have been some valid and then some disingenuous replies to this. That aside I shall take up your kind offer and contact you directly, and also, as I said previously i'd be very interested in your opinion once you've completed training and one year later ( if you stay that is)

[Undecided username]

Thermal

On the other hand, if your company has nothing in writing that prohibits the following, do you therefore then siphon out the kerosene from your tanks if actual burnoff is less than planned burnoff "AFTER" (following your example of using uppercase) a flight?

Who's the one with the kindergarten pussy mentality now. Your inability to reason obviously makes up your short comings. Geez, did you think of that one all by yourself ???

You have provided no further details when questioned point blank about the incidents you claimed happened.

If you want, I can give you names and tel numbers and you can call those in question.

This is an information board and I was just giving the brutal truth. Don't shoot the messenger.

Your jealousy and lack of spatial reasoning obviouslys shows that you are angry and frustrated that some are leaving for greener/better pastures.

It may be true that a whole bunch of other foreigners share your feelings about Eva, but your one-sided bitching just makes you look like a pussy.

I guess you are entitled to your opinion (an opinion is like as a**hole, everyone's got one; unfortunately, some are bigger than others) If you dont believe me, read about posts from other members. I guess that they fall in the same category, as you have so clearly defined.

If you want specifics, PM me or anyone else and find the honest truth. Without knowing first hand, put up or shut up.

Actually, it was me that that said good ridance (along with the 20 guys that have already left this year and the other possible 50 guys slated to leave). Do you think that they are all wrong too ??

Get a life. ;)