SOUTHAMPTON

[airhumberside]

After Air Berlin moving to BOH, Luchtzak report VLM will stop the BRU route although they are in talks with another airline to take the route over. VLM would want to retain a codesahre

[Nakata77]

Scot airways Dornier 328

[liquid sunshine]

Does anyone out there know why Air Berlin are moving to BOH? If it is a space/ operational restrictions issue at SOU is it not about time the powers at SOU began to address these issues and start building for the future!
I can only imagine it is financial as communications to SOU are far superior. If this is the case is BOH selling its long term financial security for very short term gains??? :confused:

[Yankee]

Check out the Air Berlin Web site press release on this subject, the reasons they give are all there.

[liquid sunshine]

Thanks for that Yankee!

Since runway length is an issue for Air Berlin and SOU have just lost a very reputable carrier because of this it does seem rather odd that SOU state in their Master plan that no extension to the runway is envisaged in the period to 2015 and beyond, although they do briefly mention about a stater strip. You would think that they would be exploring all possibilities to rectify this possibly very damaging shortfall.

Does anyone know any differently to the above or does anyone have any thoughts about how this problem could be rectified? :8

[eurostar builder]

All this information was posted on the BOURNEMOUTH AIRPORT FORUM but as this has now been CLOSED by the Authorites.

So WHY do we have now a NEW SOUTHAMPTON Thread.

What is going on Admin........

One rule for one and another for anybody else.

[ForestFlyer]

As there wasn't previous a Southampton thread, it makes sense... keeps everything in one place, where it is most relevent. Don't be too hard on the admin, they have a hard enough job with the number of posts on here. Yes, it is relevent to BOH too, but not so much...

As for the SOU runway, I believe the main problems there are simply surrounding a) the boundaries of the airport and the fact that the motorway is to the south as everyone knows, and that the railway yards to the north are still in use (The Alsthom site that was closed is not the yard closest to the airport) and b) the airport has strict controls placed upon it by the local council and one of those is, I believe, that the airport cannot extend the runway at the present time, without renegotiating the Agreement.

FF

[QWERTY9]

The Bournemouth Airport thread is located on Page 4 of this forum, where further details regarding Air Berlin can be read.

[jfriday]

Southampton airport has been voted one of the top three airports in the world by the Daily Telegraph Travel Awards 2005 :

1. Changi Singaport
2. Dubai
3. Southampton
= Puerto Plata
5. Schiphol (AMS)

Good News!

[JustaFew]

Good news and long overdue recognition for the airport which until a few years ago, used a pre-WW2 hangar for the terminal building. Improvements there have been long awaited.

[speedbird2727]

I heard the reason that airlines were pulling out of SOU was due to the BAA fuel-hike...

BOH isnt owned by BAA!

[shamrock7seal]

i reckon the reason BAA don't want to extend the runway (they could if they really wanted to) is because they don't want an airport dilluting Heathrow and Gatwick. They bought SOU for this reason - to stunt it's growth. You only have to look at the amount of apron land they sold off to realise that...

[liquid sunshine]

As I understand it the BAA bought SOU to extend its portfolio of airports and prove to big money investors and the markets that they could run a variety of airports from large ones like LHR through to small regional airports like SOU. I believe that the BAA have been caught by surprise at the speed of SOU's expansion and this has opened up a huge and previously untapped market.

The consequences of this expansion is that they are now faced with a HUGE!! bill to upgrade the infrastructure at SOU to a level which would allow SOU to embrace its markets. It now remains to be seen whether the BAA are committed to SOU or whether they will cut and run when faced with costs of expansion.:hmm:

[GROUNDHOG]

Am I right in thinking Southampton to Brussels has stopped now, I tried to book a flight on this route and couldn't find a carrier?

[ForestFlyer]

VLM operate SOU-BRU.

Re: the runway, like any business, BAA would have to weigh up the cost of extending it against the return on their investment, and seeing as it's not the limiting factor in the airports growth, then it would seem pointless touching the runway when other areas are more important.

flyBE will be operating the EMB195 out of SOU when it arrives which has a good payload/range combination off the existing runway, while 737/A320/757 can all operate from SOU to a large number of European destinations. Apart maybe from a starter strip, I doubt BAA will touch the runway, but frankly, I don't think they need to particularly.

The comment about the land that was sold is misinformed too... fact of the matter is that a previous MD was not as forward looking as his successor, and allowed it to happen at a time when BA were the major airline at SOU and the growth the place has had in the last few years was still a pipe dream. Since he was replaced, BAA have actually BOUGHT land in the NE corner of the airfield.

Be interesting to see how the new MD takes the place forward.

[Trislander]

Forest flyer is right.

Hasn't Eastleigh has been owned by BAA for years indirectly, the previous operators were Airports UK which was a division of BAA?

Can't see why runway length is much of a factor when a fully-laden 757 or 320 can depart SOU to the canaries and south med? The 146-300 doesn't have a great power-weight ratio which hinder's that particular a/c's performance out of SOU. As a/c get newer and better strip length is less of a hinderance, take the E-195.

T

[Wycombe]

...think you will find that the furthest a 75' or 320 went direct from SOU is/was MAH/PMI. The TFS flights (last op'd by Spanair on the 320) used to tech-stop southbound, I think at NTE (Nantes).

[FLYboh]

Air Berlin stated that they are moving to BOH due to the length of the runway at SOU. They couldn't operate a fully laden 737 out of SOU. It's also the reason why the First Choice charters to Faro operate via BOH.

If BAA extended the runway then they may attract airlines away from BOH. Ofcourse the charges would have to drop as well!

[Coasthugger]

Caught a snippet on local (Meridian) news last night of residents under the flighpath taking video footage of aircraft over their houses - but missed the actual story - anyone enlighten me?

[liquid sunshine]

It would appear that the competition between SOU and BOH is really starting to hot up! BOH have managed to lure some of the charters and Air Berlin away from SOU but SOU is still performing very well in the scheduled market. It just remains to be seen which airport will commit to serious investment in their infrastucture first because it really could be a case of winner takes all!

[FLYboh]

coasthugger,

The only thing I could find for you was that a vortex from an aircraft removed some tiles from a local residents roof near SOU. The householder was in bed at the time and they thought there had been an expolsion. The story is in the Southampton echo.

[rada76]

Yeah, Probably me :ok: (erm not the removing tiles bit)

NIMBY = Not In My Back Yard

When it comes to airports and aircraft people tend to take on the BANANA theory!!

BANANA = Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything :E

It baffles me how people who move near an airport complain when aircraft appear!!!!! These are the same people who scream on the flight when we drop the left wing at 300 feet to swing 20 degrees left having done an offset approach due to local noise restrictions!

Please society, we have to survive alongside amenities. I live 15 meters from a railway line! So I expect trains to pass by! I don't want to stop the trains, in fact I'd rather have more trains and improve the transport links.

The NEWS on meridian may not even be about aircraft noise, but I bet it was :mad:

Ooh I feel good for saying that :D

[Coasthugger]

@rada76

Yeah I know what you mean.

That said, SOU is VERY close to a lot of houses - and the usage of the airport has increased dramatically in the last 10 years so a lot of residents were probably there before BAA.

[Buster the Bear]

Alpha Airways to start an Isle of Man to Southampton service twice every weekday commencing early November.

[Jamesair]

EASTERN to operate SOU - BRU.....check website for announcement.

[Trislander]

These people have nothing better to do with their lives. The noise these people are creating by opening their mouths and moaning every time a plane goes over is more irritating than the noise of the actual aircraft itself. Get a life people, look at what the recent expansion of the airport has done for the area and local economy, jobs created and convenient transport links benefiting those in southern UK, even you. All this has to come at some expense, and it's obvious that those who have chosen to live near the end of a runway of an airport which was at that time nowhere near full capacity will have to take a risk on then future developments at the airport. Otherwise you were very naive!

And don't think I don't know what it's like, I live near the end of the runway too.

Rant over... for now.:}

[parttimer]

i'd actually kinda like to know if flybe are definitely gonna use these a/c at sou. Their performance would be great but we have a problem with their size. At the moment we have 13 nightstopping stands and 12 nightstopping a/c. When the eastern a/c to op the bru arives that will make 13 nightstopping a/c. the main problem being that only stands 2-4 can accomodate the emb195. I see this as being problem, as if they are based here we are going to have to ensure these stands are kept empty/removed of any late running or tech a/c for when the a/c get back. we are so short on space it's getting ridiculous. Coupled by the ludicrous fact that stand 13 is not in the restriced zone so everyone going back and forth from this stand has to keep going thru the security checkpoint!!!!!
any comments?????

[Trislander]

I expect the new stands forecast for the airport expansion plan will have to be installed earlier if this is the case?

[Jamesair]

re the new SOU - BRU route to be taken over by Eastern. this will be 2 x daily weekdays and will be operated, reportedly, by a leased Do 328-110 a/c

[TCAS FAN]

If Stand 13 is going to be used regularly, what is happening to Solent Flying School. I heard earlier this year that they were being given the heave-ho due to Flybe basing an extra aircraft at SOU. This was cancelled and Solent were given a stay of execution, is the axe about to finally fall on them?

[Trislander]

Actually despite stand 13 being slap bang in the middle of the Northern apron, there is still plenty of room for a 146 to park there with the PA28's parked well to one side of it.

T

[aeftutor]

Alpha One Airways are due to start on the 7th of Nov to the IOM, what/who's a/c are they planning on using?

[TCAS FAN]

Trislander

What is "plenty of room"? Last time that my aeroplane was deposited on Stand 13, I witnessed PA 28s weaving their way around it. There are no surface markings to prove that there is "plenty of room", thereby ensuring that there is no risk of collision.

My understanding is that CAA require either a marshaller to ensure wing-tip clearance, or surface markings to ensure it, the latter would then define "plenty of room" as actually 20% of the wingspan of the moving aircraft. If BAA are going to continue to permit GA aircraft to exit/leave Stand 13, taying around a parked aircraft, its a marshaller job or surface markings. Either would ensure that the requirements of the airport's Safety Management System, (that BAA are required to have in place as a condition of its airport licence) are met. At the present it is NOT.

[Trislander]

If the wingtips on a PA28 were the same height as those on the 146 then it would be an issue, but they're not..

[Buster the Bear]

How about the passengers, support crew and thier vehicles all have to be navigated past, not just the wings?

If there was forbid an accident, then for sure light aircraft would have to be escorted.

[TCAS FAN]

Trislander

Doesn't matter what height, there has to be the requisite clearance, mandated by the CAA (CAP 168 refers, ie 20% of the wingspan of the moving aircraft), which must be ensured by surface markings, or a marshaller provided. These are fundamentals of ensuring safety, not leaving it to chance - the whole reason for a Safety Management System, which UK airports and ATC Units are meant to have in place. However, apparently not currently in place in the case of Stand 13.

If you operate a GA aircraft from the vicinity of Stand 13, not only do you have aircraft on it to negotiate, there is invariably an executive jet or two on the Signature Apron to get around, with again no guidance.

What has happened to safety management at SOU?

[Trislander]

Sorry mate, wasn't aware of that. A/c however are not permitted to be loaded/unloaded on stand 13, it is for parking/maintenance only. For loading it has to taxi to a vacant stand 1-12.

:ok:

[Coasthugger]

I've finally seen that Meridian report on local residents' complaints about SOU - someone videoed it for me. Obviously there's a foreshortening effect from the camera angle but the video footage looks as if the landing aircraft are really low!

I guess it's an issue all airports have - but I think that the density of population local to SOU means they have it worse than most. Good luck with the planning permission for the new terminal!

[ForestFlyer]

TCAS FAN

>What has happened to safety management at SOU?

Stand 13 was implemented with full consultation with the CAA. I don't know what that entails exactly, but from what I was told, the reason it took so long was because of the special requirements of its location. And as Trislander says, it is not a fully operational stand, it is a 'dead' stand.

[Trislander]

Coasthugger,

I'm sure all aircraft look low when the owner's house is 200' below the glideslope less than half a mile from the TDZ.

I think I've got the solution everyone's been after:

Get a f:mad:king life or move you pathetic imbociles!

:*

[TCAS FAN]

ForestFlyer

I have little doubt that introduction of Stand 13 itself may have been co-ordinated with the CAA. What I do doubt, from what I have seen, is that the scenario of light aircraft manoeuvring around it was co-ordinated with them!

From what I remember when I last visited it, unlike other Stands, there are no lateral extremities of the Stand marked. Consequently how can taxiing aircraft ensure that they are clear of it (pursuant to CAP 168 requirements) if it is occupied? I stand (no pun intended) by my previous position, either ensure clearance by surface markings, or provide a marshaller. Without either, safety is left to chance, which is exactly what a Safety Management System is intended to prevent!

[Nakata77]

is there nothing else happening at SOU that we have to continue this inane discussion on stand 13? what about new routes? rumours of new flights? anything AT ALL?

[CaptAirProx]

Oh I know -

The runway is WET WET WET...........again!

There is a runway inspection taking place...........again!

Birds in the undershoot..........again!

Delays due runway congestion/mis-management........again!

And the R/T is full of verbage when tackling the ILS due controller verbarear..................again!

And lots of radar headings rather than speed control..........again!

As they say before Emmerdale et al, "Its all going on".

Just like the salad cream ad, we all still love it!?!?!?!

[TCAS FAN]

CaptAirProx

I think that credit should be given where it is due. The controllers at Southampton/Solent do an excellent job within the constraints that they have to live by, namely,

A lack of controlled airspace, both laterally and vertically, to adequately contain IFR flights. How many times do the controllers work their butts off providing a Radar Advisory Service to save operators 5+ minutes flying time when inbound from the north? The base of airway R41 is FL 65, just 12 miles north of the VOR, I don't fancy my chances of attempting a straight in on the ILS from that range at that level. RAS is a concession, the controllers do not have to provide it!

Speed control is fine if it is set up early enough, Solent get traffic thrown at them from all directions, without London setting up any sequence for them. Quite simply, I have seen that speed control will not work in many cases, due to the late transfer of traffic from London, vectors, or a hold (if you want the practice), are the only options.

The airport taxiway system (or lack of it) is the fault of the airport operator, BAA. A northern taxiway extension is long overdue, to avoid the problems with more than one aircraft holding at B1, often preventing pushbacks from Stands 6-12.

Runway utilisation is (through no fault of the controllers) often a sick joke. Faced with a 700+ metre backtrack prior to take-off on 20, I've spent many hours holding at B1, which could be avoided by a northern taxiway extension. Talking to someone in ATC circles, I understand that BAA could have extended the taxiway northwards for around £50K during the time that they were re-surfacing the runway, and had all the resources on the airport to do it. Unfortunately due to a lack of initiative on the part of the airport's senior management, this was not proceeded with. The cost today, £1-1.5million+?

As for the "wet/wet/wet" runway, I've seen an apparently damp/dry surface which is being reported as "wet", due to water sitting in the grooves and being thrown up when the runway is being inspected. Bearing in mind the constraints of the short runway and take-off obstacles, I don't need a wet runway (unless it really is) and the further take-off weight penalties that go with it. "Why does the water sit in the grooves?", you may ask. The reason, I understand. is that there is nowhere for the water to drain out, apparently due to the grooves not extending full width. Not ATC's fault, try BAA.

If you are really are a professional pilot, and have concerns about the way that ATC is provided, why not do as I did, go visit them? The ATC Manager, Martin Carroll (known on the airport as "Mungo") and his staff will answer all your questions and I have found them always receptive to comment, or even criticism. If you intend visiting, just give them a call to arrange a time.

We as individuals are not going to be able to twist BAA's arm to get the taxiway system or runway drainage improved, our companies or an AOC (if there is one at SOU) could.

Well done SOU ATC, you are doing a great job.

[beauport potato man]

wow............ that told you RH.

[CaptAirProx]

But TCAS. Not all my Jibes where against ATC..........


1) Wet runways are due to Airside Ops - BAA

2) Runway inspections - see above.

3) Birds on undershoot - again see above. My point being we always seem to have a mild form of panick from all and sundry when something happens at the once sleepy hollow!

For points 1 -3. As much as safety and all that. We seem to for the amount of R/T, have a high proportion of R/T occupied with inspections/crossings the whole lot. It only has to spit and out come the yellow discos. Its all fun to watch.

4) Mismanagement is management, not ATC. See above

5) Verbage - Yes ATC

6) Speed - Yes ATC


Clearer?

And yes I do visit ATC lots. And yes they have a right old poo of a time dealing with us and the puddle jumpers/weekenders. Again sometimes me. And my point being, it seems that cos they have to speak English to a lot of newbies/weekenders they have got into the habit of talking the arse legs off a donkey to us commercial when a simple heading will do and not a debrief on where we are and all that. There is a time and a place. It would make theirs/our life so much easier?!

As to Speed. I agree with your reasons. ATC told me the same but also didn't realise how much we can slow down if asked. They also thought that Turboprops didn't mind extra track miles as fuel burn is so low. We not quite, and fuel as we all know is a valuable diminishing resource hitting our bottom line- yikes - management talk!

I have sat many a time waiting to select a verticle speed mode to get down to the glide from the north upon getting the clearance to do so. However, poor old ATCO is babbling away about this that and the other of which I feel is somewhat superflous. To me and thats my opinion, they talk far more excess than other similar over- loaded units.

[liquid sunshine]

The runway is WET WET WET...........again!

There is a runway inspection taking place...........again!

Birds in the undershoot..........again!

Capt Airprox I am absoulutely staggered that as a supposedly professional pilot that you are critical of Airside ops dept. A dept who very often are the unsung heroes of airports up & down the UK.

If the runway is wet again.......its probably because it is raining, again!!! Somebody has to go out and make any official assessment for the record.

If there is an inspection taking place again you ought to be grateful that the runway you are using is being inspected regularly.

Here at LHR I believe the runways are only inspected 4 times per 24 hrs. Given the number of movements it is not inconceivable that a piece of FOD could go unchecked/collected for quite sometime hence the development of runway surface radar!

As for the birds , the fact you are made aware of the presence of birds means that someone (Ops) are on the ground conducting bird patrol so that this information can be passed on to pilots and conducting bird dispersal when necessary. I don't need to highlight to you the consequences of a serious bird strike!

It might suit you better if you were a little more grateful and respectful to the professional people whose time is dedicated to ensuring a safe working environment for YOU, as I know the team I have come across at LHR do a sterling job, instead of trying to be a smart a**e !!!

:mad:

[CaptAirProx]

Quite, but why is it, from my experience, the SOU ramp/atc/runway etc is taken up with so much Operations movements compared to pretty much any other airport I know. Generally they go about their business behind the scenes with the odd visible appearance. It is the standard joke of old that SOU on an average day has more calls from Checker than aircraft.

Remember, BAA is riddled with the remnants of a government run organisation. It needs to become a lean mean fightin machine.

Also, Southampton as an airport overall like many small up and coming airfields, quite often forgets its busy now, and has to move with the times.

And Liquid, you proove my point as at LHR you admit they are a well run outfit. Thats my point, why isn't it at SOU. Everyone else can do it????? I quite imagine you know exactly what I am talking about!

[ForestFlyer]

Bump this thread back up the top a bit...

New flyBE routes to Angers, Avignon and Faro announced for next Summer. (3 a week)

FAO is on the 146 to begin with but I'd imagine it'd be a prime candidate for first Emb195 route, depending on when they arrive.

[GBALU53]

With the temperatures in the summer being hopefully in the twenties the old BAE 146 heading south bound down Airway N866 towards Ortac will be finding it difficult to get a good level without getting into Jersey airspace.

With more traffic routing along N866 it might be worn out before its time?????.

Otherwise Jersey will be handling a lot more traffic for the summer of 2006 as the Bae146 if they have good loads do not climb very well.

The Eurocharter B737-200 ex Bournemouth climb better and normally leave Jersey airspace alone.

Some of the sectors seem long for the BAE146 or do they intend to have a B737 there before the EMB195 arrives??

God luck to them but if J.W. was alive he would still have support for the Jersey Operation which seem to be losing out on a lot of opertunities but that is aviation.

[Trislander]

GBALU53,

I fail to see the significance of your post, what difference would one or two extra daily flights make over the summer just gone anyway? :confused:

[GBALU53]

All very well FLY BE having more flights out of sou untill they get there fleet in order they will not be able to cope with these extra flights.

The performance of a Bae 146 in the summer is ok on short sectors but to get the aircraft if they are planning to operate them to the south of france or spain the max passenger loads they would be able to accept would not be 100%.

Unless they plan to use Boeing aircraft on some of the longer sectors some of these new routes will not last for the season.

Although the Dash 8 might be used on some routes but at the momment the aircraft seems not as reliable as the Bae146, as you must know Fly Be cancelled one of the afternoon rotations down to Jersey yesterday due thr aircraft going tech in Jersey after the second morning flight.

[JobsaGoodun]

GBALU53

if J.W. was alive he would still have support for the Jersey Operation which seem to be losing out on a lot of opportunities but that is aviation

Flybe are very much commited to Jersey and it would appear from recent press statements from Flybe, that one of the primary reason for lack of expansion at Jersey is the unwillingness for Jersey and Guernsey Airports to adopt the 'low cost carrier' ethos and reduce their charges to a level that actively supports expansion.

I'm pretty sure that J.W. would be immensly proud of what Flybe have achieved in the last couple years. Although very much a supporter of services from Jersey, he was a very astute businessman and as such would only want what was best for the company in such a cut throat industry.

if they are planning to operate them to the south of france or spain the max passenger loads they would be able to accept would not be 100%.

Flybe have been flying SOUAGP, the longest route from SOU for 2 full summer seasons and in the past 12mths I would be fairly confident to say that there have been no diversions or capacity reductions due to the prevailing conditions. In the first year a couple flights went to BOH but these were during the heatwave of 2004 where temperatures approached 35C, something no one would have expected.

I'm struggling to see the relevence of your last post GBALU53. Flybe have the EMB195 on order which should eliminate any of the situations you suggest might occur. Your concerns have already been addressed as far as i'm concerned with delivery of the EMB's expected to start later on 2006. These are unlikely to be in time for this Summer 2006 but with deliveries coming in at a typical LCC rate of one per month they should start to suppliment and replace some of the 146's fairly quickly.

[Trislander]

GBALU53,

Jobsagoodun is correct. The only capacity reduction i could possibly forsee in order to avoid an en route tech stop is when operating the 143's down to southern Iberia. The capacity on these would have to be limited to 100/112 seats avail, or so I've been told by a fellow colleague.

The 142's have no problem and have operated to full capacity (97) on these routes over the past couple of years (apart from summer '03 :oh: ).

T

[Coasthugger]

Local radio says the airport is closed today as a result of BT engineers cutting a cable...whoops!:ooh:

[BigBoeing]

Anything happen at Southampton today as a number of flybe dash 8's and a 146 appeared in quick succesion into Bournemouth?? Things usually come to us when Southampton has problems. Cheers for any info

[Johnny F@rt Pants]

I heard on the travel news on't wireless that there was a power loss at the airport, apparantly a worker severed a cable:ugh: := :O

[G-CPTN]

'Twas a BT cable and 'communications' were disrupted.
The communication systems at Southampton Airport are currently being restored and flights are starting to take off and land again.
Mrs G-CPTN flew into and out of Southampton yesterday, and several of her colleagues (attending a conference) were due out today!

[flyingbug]

Johny FP is right, severed power cable led to no ATC, therefore Flybe flights cancelled or diverted. Happy days!!:}

[Wolfman857]

Just to clear the facts.. A contractor working on the site cut through a 100 pair cable.. BT were there trying to clean up his mess. Caused us some fun and games though for the afternoon. Airport to close approx 0030.. Just the usual at SOU, the unexpected..

[Tim_donovan]

What a numpty, How does a work man manage to cut through a 100 pair cable?

Furthermore what back ups are in place when this happens for ATC?

[no slots]

Johny FP is right, severed power cable led to no ATC, therefore Flybe flights cancelled or diverted. Happy days!!:}
Happens most days here.Only difference is that we have no planes to divert!!
We are experts at dealing with power failures.

[Coasthugger]

Umm... apparently close the airport and divert all flights?:}

[Wolfman857]

The cable that was cut was telecom cable.. no comms. power was on all day

[Wolfman857]

seems that senior management now recognise the need for a back up system.. like many things at SOU only gets approval for back ups after the primary has failed. Things get to be a little bit like the younger sibling, always getting the hand me downs (LHR). It would be nice to get a northen taxiway and a proper peri track but budget always seems to go the way of other "more important" projects like paint signage that deteriorates within weeks of being done. :confused:

[EarthOrbitor]

...how many diverts in total did Bournemouth handle?

[Wolfman857]

Not that many 3 Dh8's 2 Er 145's and a Dornier 328

[Le Tirer]

.....and a BAe146, Trislander and I assume Specsavers Be300 as that usually operates into SOU.

[aeulad]

BACON dropping SOU-GLA. BE increasing as a result to 6 daily, including some ops with E95.

Think this is the beginning of the end for BACON at SOU.

Regards

Mike

[Charlie Roy]

A route from Barcelona to Southhampton is on the wish list of new Spanish airline "Click Air".

http://www.elperiodico.com/EDICION/ED060624/CAS/CARP01/PDF/g002mR98.PDF

[phil_2405]

Any chance of BA Connect starting up a nearby BOH instead?

[Groundloop]

If BACON apparently can't make money at SOU doubt if they'll even give BOH a single thought!

[liquid sunshine]

The Glasgow route can be a good route with the right business model which Bacon did not have for regional routes. How long before someone else steps into the breech as I don't believe the other players will allow Flybe to have a prime domestic trunk route all to themselves? BMI? Easyjet ?

[Buster the Bear]

I think with the high price of oil, thus aviation fuel, airlines will not want to readily open new routes to directly compete against established existing carriers.

There has recently been a swathe of routes cut by easyJet, Ryanair and Monarch that whilst performing well, cannot make money due to the high costs of fuel.

I doubt if either Glasgow or Southampton airports or their local regional authorities would subsidise a new additional operator, so the route would have to become profitable from day one.

Flybe have increased the capacity off the route, so making it extremely difficult for a new 'player' to gain entry I would suggest?

All airlines are struggling with the price of Jet A1 against the tickets/fares that they sold months ago, this income does not match the oil price rise. You will also note the increase in fares for this coming winter and next summer to overcome this rise in a fixed unavoidable cost. Ryanair has of course, no fuel surcharge, but their overall fares have risen, they still offer 99p flights, but not in the same number and far fewer on every flight to compensate.

I am expecting quite a lot of re-adjustment of low cost routes offered by airlines once the introductory discounts and subsidies are over. The airlines stated above have already started this process.

[FLYboh]

BMI maybe but I wouldn't think that Easy would start up at SOU as well as showing an interest at BOH. If BMI can make a go of the AMS route than they might, but Flybe certainly appear to be flooding that route with cheap seats, therefore not leaving much space for a competitor.

[darren1]

If BMI are serious about setting up a base in SOU perhaps GLA isn't out of the question, however I would like to see them linking SOU to Star Alliance airports such as CPH, MUC and FRA.

[uncovered]

Flybe 3rd frequency is bookable on-line now. Leaves SOU at 14:00 and returns from AMS at 16.45.

Word on the street is that they just passed 10K pre-bookings.

Any news on Scot moving current AMS deployed aircraft to EDI or on the rumours that BMI were having second thoughts due to BACON removing Eng line support at SOU and therefore adding lots of additional cost?

[darren1]

BMI having second thoughts doesn't surprise me at all, just remember EDI-MUC and LTN-BRU?
On a plus point Click Air seem to be interested in serving SOU-BCN, a route promised by Flybe when they first turned up, along with NCE!

[uncovered]

Now confirmed that BMI will not be starting SOU-AMS. Pax passed to Scot Airways. First Flybe rotations (starting Sept 11th) apparently full.

[FLYboh]

The first outward flight has less than 8 seats available to book, but the rest of the flights are pretty low in price, indicating that they are not that full!

There's so much competition on this route from Gatwick and Bournemouth that even Flybe had to scale down their planned 3 flights a day to the 2 that they currently offer.

[uncovered]

Flybe has 3 flights not 2. Third starts in Oct. apparently they have 12000 plus pre-bookings and are well pleased.

[Mikeyb59]

Flybe have today announced a 4 times weekly service to Galway starting 16/12. Also, advertised in today's local paper is a service to Nice for summer '07.

This on top of Hannover, Dusseldorf, Amsterdam & possibly Innsbruck. :D

Is there no stopping them?

[darren1]

Innsbruck?

[Mikeyb59]

Suspect its a ski charter, rather like the Salzburg one. Sorry to mis-inform.

[Keyvon]

i open this thread with bad news : balkan holidays has pulled its weekly summer charter to varna from SOU. bh air will no longer visit eastleigh, for the next summer, neither.

shame SOU isnt able to keep and develope more charters to the sun spots.

[liquid sunshine]

I am afraid that this is a sad reflection on the BAA's management policy at Southampton. They are not going to lose any sleep over losing a charter as the airport struggles to handle anything much bigger than a 146/F100 etc which is a sorry state of affairs in this day & age. Having a busy charter programme would only highlight the short comings of the infrastructure and investment required at Southampton and all this despite the fact that at the weekends especially the traffic movements are fairly low. There will come a time in the future when BOH will pose a serious threat to Southampton and the first airport to a make a serious investment in their future will be in aposition where "winner takes all"!

[chrism20]

Is there room to extend the runway at SOU?

At present the departure lounge desperately needs extending, was down that was a few months ago and it was choca with no delays on the screens

[TCAS FAN]

Chrism20

In answer to your question, "yes" it is technically possible to extend the runway. After years of denying that it could be done "due to planning restrictions" the local BAA management appear to have finally read their agreement with the planning authorities and worked it out.

In an apparent move to get quick planning consent for re-development of the airport in the early 90's, BAA voluntarily entered into an environmental agreement with local planning authorities. This had the effect of severely restricting night flights (ie between about 2300/0600) thereby stopping the airport operating 24/7, curtailing training flights and banning the early generation of jets.

Also built in to the agreement were a number of runway development measures. The intent was, and still is, that the runway should not be extended or re-aligned. However, recognising that BAA could appeal against this restriction, the agreement specifies that if an appeal was ever made any extension would not result in a runway of 2000 metres. So technically no problem with planning.

An extension to the south is not practicable due to the M27 and the large hill, which would negate any increased TORA. Extension to the north is practicable but not going to be cheap. There is the rail marshalling yard and the big sheds to remove, probably re-align Campbell Road, which runs through between the yard and the sheds and re-align the rail loop which runs south of Campbell Road to enable trains to be turned around for usae on the adjacent main line. I also suspect that it will also involve demolition of a number of houses at the west end of Campbell Road. Technically possible, but have BAA got the balls to do it?

Something that may force them to make a decision is the fact that the runway currently operates on the absolute minimum end safety areas. They have 90 metres each end, but the CAA/ICAO recommended is 240 metres. Consequently, if another overrun is experienced (remember the Citation on the M27?) and it is not contained within the airport, CAA will probably mandate the full 240 metres. The result will be to either reduce declared distances or displace the runway northwards. The first option will put the airport out of business, so about time to start working on the second?

[liquid sunshine]

TCAS Fan

Well put!

It is high time BAA started looking at the re-development of Southampton phase 2 before the airlines start looking else where for airports that show more commitment to the future, or is it just possible that BAA would rather spend their money elsewhere?

[darren1]

I notice for the winter schedules in Amadeus BD have a daily flight to MAN...have they made an official announcement yet?

[wantabe_crew]

EGHI is closed from 1720 - 2359 due to the runway being blocked anyone has any news?

[BFS/BHD]

Well at BHD the BEE997 to SOU is being allowed to operate now (earlier ATC has advised them that SOU was closed due to an incident), so im guessing things are alright now.

[mmeteesside]

Last aircraft to land would appear to be the BE887 from GLA at 1806, nothing since then.

EDIT: Eastern from NCL landed 1856 everything back to normal it would appear.

[chrism20]

traffic appears to be moving again according to the website so the problem must be sorted. I'm sure one of the local lads will be able to let us know whats happened later

[anna12]

Flybe E145 with a nose gear steering failure while
backtrackng for departure..Nose gear off the pavement
and aircraft had to be towed back to stand. Passengers
taken off by bus from runway. Re opened for flying at
1844L.

[loveJet]

did any flights get divered to BOH?

Southampton handled 190,429 passengers in Sep 2007 with a rolling 12 months of 1,949,663.

[Le Tirer]

did any flights get divered to BOH?

Just one Flybe E195 last night because of the runway closure. Fortunately for SOU it happened at a fairly quiet time.

There were also a couple of Flybe DHC8 diversions to BOH this morning due to the fog at SOU.

LT

[cheesycol]

Thank **** it didn't happen at V1 :ooh:

[franma]

On the SOU website it has flyglobespan as the operator of the Dublin service :confused: is this a mistake?

Are flybe going to do Angers soon? It has this listed on the SOU website and the flybe city guide. This is the only route Eastern have left themselves:( are they going to last much longer from SOU?

flybe are slowly becoming the only operator out of SOU :(

[Flitefone]

The march of progress at Southampton is fairly clear in the crystal ball. Flybe's strategy is plain to see here and elsewhere. See my post #354 on the Bournemouth thread in November. Flybe have pushed virtually all the competition out of Southampton airport over the last 4 years.

Eastern are staring to fight back, but not on the south coast, their days are numbered at SOU unless they change tack pronto.

...But good old Ryanair have spotted the opening, have upped BOH - PIK to double daily from April, reintroduced BOH - Nantes for the summer and already started naming Flybe as a high priced competitor in their PR. Only a matter of time before a BOH - EDI. and probably a BOH - BHD from FR.

But Southampton will continue to thrive, relying on stronger competition from elsewhere to keep the fares down.. I still think Air France won't last the pace though, a codeshare with Flybe probably on the cards for SOU -CDG.

[darren1]

Most AF pax connect in CDG so this service will thrive, as would a KL service to AMS as ams is a major transit airport.

[Flitefone]

I agree that the transit traffic will drive AF/KL interest in SOU. I just think that you will no longer see AF aircraft, just Flybe with a codeshare. Would bet they're working on it as a strategy for AMS/PAR, although the BA tie up currently may prevent such a deal near term. After the IPO maybe...?

[airhumberside]

AF and BE can clearly co-exist on CDG at the moment, serving different makets. Why would they want to tie up together?

[Flitefone]

Basic economics - less cost = more profit. Why compete on a route, if profitable growth is available by codeshare, also codeshare will release an aircraft to grow elsewhere. Whether the route is operated by AF or Flybe, the economic basics are still valid.

Flybe have shown many times that they enter a market with the goal of pushing out the competition... AF has a stronger constitution than BA, so I expect a different outcome... codeshare (with AF) rather than takeover (of BA Connect) either way I expect that having two operators competing to Paris (or Amsterdam) out of SOU will only be a short term situation.

Just my crystal ball, it's perfectly reasonable to have a different view!

[darren1]

Are BMI Regional still eyeing up SOU?

[virginblue]

I note some news that the AF service will relocate from CDG to ORY with effect summer schedule. Anyone in the know what reason is? I always thought the route was a feeder for the AF hub at CDG. Other than for destinations in France, ORY is only good for local traffic.



P.S.: Surprised that the SOU thread has been dormant for more than a year....

[loveJet]

you know why this post has been dormant for a year?

Because the only airline (of any volume) there is Flybe. Pretty boring. Nothing exciting about a new obscure French destination.

Shame that AF are moving to ORY - i used to use the route from Asia to SOU via CDG.

[virginblue]

you know why this post has been dormant for a year?

Because the only airline (of any volume) there is Flybe. Pretty boring.


That's true for quite a few of the regional airports - being dominated by just one carrier (although at SOU it is probably "worse" than anywhere else). My remark only tried to express my observation how different the number of followers of the various airports is on PPRUE - just look at some of threads on smallish airports - the number of postings on PPRUNE about them seems to be higher than the actual number of passengers passing the gates (well, sort of....). SOU does not seem to have a strong aviation community on PPRUNE and on general.

[loveJet]

thats a good observation virginblue.

look at airports like BOH and BLK and DTV, they seem to have massive aviation enthusiast followings; but SOU doesn't.

[darren1]

How about a LH link to MUC or FRA? If AF move to ORY worldwide connections will be very poor indeed.

[Skipness One Echo]

SOU does not seem to have a strong aviation community on PPRUNE and on general.

The airport is seemingly spotter proof with only the small multi storey and the little mound to chance your arm at spotting from. PC Plod is so bored that moving you on is the highlight of his day. ( life surely - ed )

[TCAS FAN]

darren1

Or maybe tempt KLM back to restore the great interlining that they previously offered?

[darren1]

KL to AMS would open up great connections. There business plan works at other airports where there is competition to AMS. BE are only interested in point to point traffic. It's a worry how dominant BE are at the airport. LH have been successful at BRS with the FRA connection, i'm sure they could pick up pax from the south coast who loath going to LHR. I had high hopes BD regional would turn up, but there wacky idea for a point to point route to a non Star Alliance hub didn't even last long enough for the first flight to take off.

[Cloud1]

Its not Flybe's fault few airlines operate out of Southampton - its no different to FR at Glasgow Prestwick for example. SOU does have BE, AF, BCI, GR and IOS with TOM in during the summer season.

Flybe offer interline partnerships with other airlines so I am sure passengers could connect through AMS or CDG fairly easily if they wanted to or if they researched it a little bit.

[airhumberside]

Cloud1 - you forgot Eastern on your list of SOU scheduled airlines

At SOU, BE saw an opportunity and took it, other airlines didnt and hence very little variety in airlines

AF moving PAR to Orly seems very wierd. The aircraft will be Orly based as well so the first arrival into Paris is not until mid morning. No good for day trips to Paris for business passengers, and not much good for connections unless you are going to somwhere else in France

[RoyHudd]

ORY is much handier for the centre of Paris, via Orlyval and the RER. About half the time it takes from CDG. And a lot of business parks and industry are located to the south of Paris, around Orly Airport and Anthony. (Used to live and work there).

So hopefully BE have got it right.

[Cloud1]

Cloud1 - you forgot Eastern on your list of SOU scheduled airlines

Ooops sorry you are right - and they are probably the second largest airline at Southampton :)

[paulc]

Eastleigh, like all BAA airports treat enthusiasts as a nuisance and do everthing they can to frustrate them. There are 4 aviation groups within a 20 mile radius of Eastleigh so there is plenty of aviation interest locally - just not at the airport itself.

[loveJet]

by 'aviation groups' are you referring to the aviation protestors that exist in and around Eastleigh including some disturbed individuals who aim shotguns at aircraft taking out their frustration at the increased aircraft noise...

[Jerbourg]

Does anyone in the know think that if Blue Islands had operated their shortlived GVA & ZRH routes direct, rather than via Jersey that they would still be operating, is there a demand in the Hants area for these routes or were Blue just wasting their time trying?

[darren1]

Well they are certainly wasting money advertising Southampton to Zurich and Geneva via Jersey on the local radio station in Southampton. :ugh:

[liquid sunshine]

From talking to friends & colleagues etc it would appear that there is a lot of potential demand for SOU but at the moment many of them travel to LHR or LGW becuase for the lack of routes and frequency on offer at SOU. The airport is crying out for better interline options, perhaps FRA with LH or CPH with SK for starters. Sooner BAA can get someone in to compete with Flybe the better, as their frequency on some routes makes flying out of SOU on business very difficult! :hmm:

[darren1]

Whilst grateful for the German routes the timeings are lousy. I'd love a couple of MUC and FRA rotations a day on LH, the connecting possiblities would be fantastic and would also make a day trip possible.
Is SOU one of the only airports not to have a loco route to BCN?

[parttimer]

The majority of the pax on the JER/ GVA /ZRH were actually just going as far as jer so i think the fact that it stopped in jer may have put people off. Also the timings weren't great and they often had problems as they'd put too many flts into one day. If the a/c left SOU ever so slightly late due de-icing or tech they had huge probs fitting in the extra legs to make it back in to JER before closing at night.

[Baltasound]

About 20 people on the flight to ABZ on Friday (BE).

[paulc]

Lovejet,

no - i mean groups of people who enjoy talking aviation and listen to others talk aviation. There is lot of aviation history in the area that people are interested in.

[darren1]

Being the UK's premier cruise port do the airport encourage people to fly to SOU to connect with their cruise?

[Cloud1]

Passengers do use SOU to get to their cruises although I am not sure they advertise it as such - imagine all the extra baggage!! Not many people would be willing to pay excess baggage on any of the airlines so I don't think it would be a successful way to get people through the airport.

[emb-145]

Anyone know what the Star Alliance BD 145 was doing at SOU today? Departed just after 14.00z on a BD9xxx callsign.

Just curious...

[Le Tirer]

As it went to DTV I would imagine it was taking the Portsmouth football team up to play Middlesborough.

LT

[dv8]

Rumour has it that the HS 125 G-DCTA parked up on stand 14 has been impounded

[Serenity]

and what about the Eastern J41 on stand 1 that hasn`t moved for about a week ???

[adfly]

Any new airlines due to start at sou soon???

[TCAS FAN]

Serenity

Eastern currently have an aircraft based in France. They have a maintenance agreement with Fly-be at SOU which is used to service the France based aircraft. The aircraft on Stand 1 is rotated to/from France as/when required.

[TCAS FAN]

dv8

Yes you are correct, GCDTA is impounded against unpaid fees. No reasonable offer refused!

[Wellington Bomber]

Adfly

Have you not heard about the new Liverpool service 3 times a day with Eastern starting in July

[TCAS FAN]

adfly

No new airlines known at the moment, but Eastern are to base a Saab 2000 to operate SOU/Liverpool/Aberdeen services, believed to be starting June.

[Wellington Bomber]

TCAS

Eastern are not basing a SAAB, it will be a J41

The first arrival in the morning is a SAAB which originates in ABZ stopping in Liverpool on the way down.

The based Jetstream is going north first thing to Newcastle

It then operates twice to Liverpool in the afternoon

[SFP]

As stated above the SAAB (EZE4071) originates in Aberdeen (06.40) calls at Liverpool (arr 07.50, dep 08.10)before continuing to Southampton (arr 09.00) and then, as EZE4072, departs at 09.30 returns via LPL (arr 10.20, dep 10.40) to Aberdeen (arr 11.50)

The J41 rotations later in the day:

The first (EZE4075) is by an Aberdeen aircraft leaving Aberdeen at 14.30, arr LPL 15.50, dep LPL 16.20, arr Southampton 17.20 hrs.
This then becomes EZE4078 ex Southampton at 17.50, arr LPL 18.50, dep LPL 19.20 arr Aberdeen 20.40.

The second (EZE4076) by a Southampton originating flight
Dep Southampton 15.00, arr LPL 16.00, dep LPL 16.30, arr Aberdeen 17.50.
It then departs (as EZE4077) Aberdeen 18.20, arr LPL 19.40, dep LPL 20.10 arriving back at Southampton at 21.10

See: Eastern Airways-UK & European flights and car rental from easternairways.com (http://www.easternairways.com)

[Serenity]

So Eastern are basing a J41 at SOU only a year after shutting the base with the last one. All FD and all CC bar one taking redundancey!!
I suppose a job is a job at the moment, but if i was the crew i wouldn`t rest too comfortably, need only say INV, MAN, CEG and SOU all shut in the past year!!!!
I know for a fact last year the commercial guys at Eastern ruled out SOU/LPL as quote " the Flybe SOU/MAN route is too much competition"
See how long this lasts!!

[adfly]

do you think eastern will expand their re-started base-wahat happened to the Angers sevice

[adfly]

only 3x day on a 29 seat aircraft-are eastern mad??
flybe fly to manchester at least 6 times a day on a 78 seater aircraft!!

eastern pax(sou-lpl&lpl-sou) 114

flybe pax(also both ways) 468!!!

[Wellington Bomber]

Not if you want to fly to Liverpool!

Also it will be quicker, no holding waiting for a slot and no lengthy taxi to terminal, and your bags will get processed quicker as well

[adfly]

i suppose but far more people would want/need to go to manchester so it could be used as an alternative-fly to lpl then get a train to manchester?

[adfly]

any other airlines considering serving/basing aircraft in sou soon???

[adfly]

why was this fight on the arivals list on the website??
BAA Southampton: Flight arrivals at Southampton Airport | Live Southampton Airport arrivals (http://www.southamptonairport.com/portal/page/Southampton%5EGeneral%5EFlight+information%5ELive+flight+arr ivals/)

[Newforest2]

Which flight would that be?:confused:

[Newforest2]

Do you mean FMY8048, the French Army TBM700?

[adfly]

yes what was it doing??

[davidjohnson6]

1st stage of a plan to stake a claim on the Isles de la Manche, by cutting off communications links from the nearest airport in the UK. French land forces arrive in St Helier on Wednesday ! :}

[Jerbourg]

I notice Blue Islands have slashed the frequency & amount of seats available to Guernsey from SOU but have upgraded the aircraft to a D328. Also interesting to see that Jersey - SOU is again being sold (albeit via Guernsey). The available Guernsey seats being further diminished by carrying passengers bound for Jersey. I was led to believe that the Guernsey service was a winner, so why this strange move I wonder?

[Nakata77]

what a mess they are in. they have disregarded their whole business model and chasing after markets that are already adequately served. they are probably not going to survive the winter

[skiptoit]

Blue Islands are a mess. They sell themselves as a business airline but by cutting the frequency of the SOU/GCI flights they are alienating their core clientele! Business people require frequency and flexibility, the two values that the company was originally established under. The GCI market is now just ripe for Flybe to snatch directly from under the noses of BCI. The chopping and changing of schedules every two months or so is infuriating for passengers and they won't put up with it for much longer.

Paul Sabin needs to get a grip or just go back to flying freight and ACMI, he is clueless to the ways of scheduled passenger ops and the requirements of the very people he is supposed to be serving. The ATRs could well be the end of Blue Islands. Many airlines have done it before, got cocky and expanded away from their niche, eventually facing the consquences and becoming unworkable and insolvant.

[shamrock7seal]

totall agree with every word said in that Skiptoit

why did they move away from BOH leaving those markets totally open - there is still demand there. Yet Blue Islands choose to battle it out with Flybe - alright if they stuck to their actual business mission but they arn't hence the impending downfall.

[adfly]

eastern have announced they will start serving dtv from southampton starts 2nd november
Flights from Durham Tees Valley to Southampton announced - Eastern Airways (http://www.easternairways.com/latest-news/flights-from-durham-tees-valley-to-southampton-announced.html)

[Wycombe]

Looks like TCX are planning to operate SOU-PMI in Summer '11

[MARKEYD]

Thomas Cook and Thomson are operating to Palma next year , however both companies are using a based FlyBe Embraer 195 to operate the service , nothing exciting !

Thomas Cook are operating on Sat and Thomson on Thu like this year

[Nakata77]

and are these flights also part of Flybe's normal schedules to Palma? If so then it really is quite small scale.

[Wycombe]

BAA arrivals shows a return BE9102 PMI-SOU operating today (I imagine the outbound departed first wave this morning), so looks like a dedicated charter?

[RNWY03]

is this cos the BOH based Thompson 738 now being used is considered unsuitable for SOU's shorter runway? Earlier this week 2 Transavia 738's seem to get in and out of SOU ok ?

[Nakata77]

What were the Transavia 737's in for? u sure they were 738's and not 73G's?

A 738 on it's way to AMS is a lot easier than a 738 on its way to PMI from SOU's runway.

[LAX2000]

These were cruise charters to Rotterdam

2 x Transavia 738 & a Jet 2 733 all departed after 8pm on Tuesday

[Wycombe]

is this cos the BOH based Thompson 738 now being used is considered unsuitable for SOU's shorter runway?

T'was no problem for the (then) Britannia 75' a couple of years back :ok:

There were also Air Europa 734's, 738's and Iberworld 320's operating to the Balearics during the same period.

[RNWY03]

Were the Blueline A320 and MD83 in last night for the same reason? I believe the the A320 went to Nantes not sure about the MD.

[MARKEYD]

I think the only reason the Thomson 737 800 does not come into Southampton is that the aircraft is required back in Bournemouth to operate out to Bodrum in the afternoon . Thomson have a full schedule from BOH this summer and no W pattern s are being operated

There is obviously a spare Flybe jet at Southampton in the am which is able to take the work

[uptoncol]

With ref to flybe having a spare aircraft for the thomson flight from southampton it is late every week and it is a based aircraft doing its first flight of the day ,i was on this flight back from palma on the 10th sat on tarmac in palma for 2 hrs bring back thomson airways for this flight.

[JobsaGoodun]

If you were sat on the tarmac for 2hrs then it will have probably been for one of two reason. Either the aircraft had a technical fault (but I would be surprised if you were onboard whilst this was ongoing), possibly more likely, you were delayed due to a ATC slot due to ongoing industrial action by French air traffic controllers.

I'm not saying that there was a strike on 10JUN but there have been quite a few recently. I think you'll find that whoever you were travelling on to SOU would have been in exactly the same situation.

[uptoncol]

Well even a member of the cabin crew who had been on the weeks before flight was moaning saying it was only on this charter there were delays on there schedule service there were no probs like the week before something to do with the lift for the disabled helping those passengers on board thomson were saying it was thomsons issue and vice versa ,there was not this problem last year when thomson was opperating this flight.

[gkmeech]

Flybe's scheduled service to Palma doesn't seem to have problems ... only the Saturday morning IT Charter

[RNWY03]

Southern Daily Echo yesterday had front page article on proposed new routes from SOU from 2011 using the new 88 set Embraer. Jim French is quoted as saying " We will be making Southampton a hub of International Business Travel by introducing new destinations....." Up to 14 extra flights a day are proposed with 10 possible new routes inc Milan, Stuttgart, Copenhagen, Helsinki, Stockholm.

Where on earth will they put the new aircraft on an ( at peak times) already crowded apron?

[Wycombe]

From what I've seen, it's also pretty much empty once each "wave" departs, so some careful scheduling should mean capacity can be optimised(.....although as always I guess that means that some destinations may end up with less than ideal timings).

The pax/ATM data for SOU still shows it's operating below 2008 levels.

Biggest issue at SOU I think is still the aircraft size limitations when parking on the stands immediately adjacent to the multi-storey (not so much physical, but to do with encroachment on ILS critical area if I have understood correctly?)

[Chesty Morgan]

Wycombe, that shouldn't be a problem as the 175 is shorter and has a smaller wingspan than the Dash.

[Wycombe]

Thanks for clarification.....if this expansion all "takes off" there may even be business justification for the new stands to the east of 02/20 that the BAA Master Plan for SOU talks about.

I'm an occasional SOU pax (twice on domestics with BE in last 6 months) and love the fact that I can be in the car and driving out 10 mins after landing :ok:

[canberra97]

As this Southampton thread is always very quiet I thought I would try and keep it alive by asking this!

Does anyone know of any further expansion plans at Southampton such as new routes, possible new airlines, any planned airport developments, etc ??

[RooCat]

bit of a random question but can anyone see luxair or lufthansa coming to southampton? a flight to luxembourg maybe 2/3x weekly could do well in the summer and a decent legacy carrier other than fickle air france could be useful.maybe a feeder flight by LH cityline on a crj 200 2x daily to either FRA or MUC would work nicely.Even 5x weekly, newquay and inverness have sustained successful services.Surely Southampton is worth a look at the bare minimum?

[adfly]

Well if Flybe are anything to go by I would say a few German routes operated by the LH regional crj 700s/rj85s would work very well. Flybe do well on their German routes despite being quite badly timed. They should look at Frankfurt, Düsseldorf, Munich, Berlin and possibly Hamburg or even Stuttgart at 1-2 daily.

[darren1]

I'm sure a LH CRJ-200 would be great for a twice daily flight to either MUC or FRA. SOU has no real connections since KL dropped AMS and AF/BE flight to ORY only seem to connect to minor AF longhauls.
Even SK to CPH might have possibilities:ok:

[adfly]

I thought LH regional stopped using the Crj200? Although I think some of the higher demand routes could sustain the Crj700 such as Düsseldorf and Frankfurt even with a double daily frequency.

[RooCat]

it looks like flybe will again take advantage of an available market but potentially abuse it. Flybe carried around 30,000 on the FRA route last year and it was not even in the top 10 routes out of SOU. I know they tried and abandoned but could AB comeback and possibly try Cologne or Paderborn again.I know for a fact that the local Ford plant deals regularly with the Cologne region, where many execs fly either into Heathrow or even catch the train.
As for Aer Arann Canberra97, I am in agreement. Cork was always a particularly convenient route with the local expats. I also think that Shannon could work well. As for Dublin, flybe have had issues regarding aircraft into it but I am shocked as to why Aer Lingus have not tried Southampton,yet Durham, Doncaster and Blackpool seemed to have double dailys (albeit they now seemed to have stopped!)
Again, a double daily atr 72 could work quite nicely if aer lingus regional take the brunt.Its too much of a risk for aer arann to try stand-alone:):):):):)

[Jamie2k9]

As for Dublin, flybe have had issues regarding aircraft into it

What sort of issues???

[RooCat]

Jamie 2k9, I stand corrected. Were there not a few technical issues within the past few months where Flybe have delayed flights and/or had to call in spare aircraft?
(source: flybe forum)

[Jamie2k9]

Yes you are right there has been a number of major delayed flights because of tec problems and a few canceled flights.

As for summer 11 it looks like BE will increase DUB flights but as I don't know how by how much as I don't remember what operated this year. It also looks that Exeter will be reduced.

Even tonight DUB - Exeter cancelled by tec problem. Aircraft now grounded in DUB until tomorrow.

[RooCat]

There were 3 flights daily, one in the early morning (just before 7am), one around 1-2 pm and then one in the evening around 8:30pm. that operated every weekday on a dash 8 then on a reduced frequency on the weekend.However wasn't one flight on a sunday operated by an embraer?(probably wrong!)

[adfly]

Minorca would also probably be a good route for one of the new Embraer 175s at 2/3 per week in the summer, as so far all of the balieric flights from southampton are to palma, their must be some demand to both Minorca and Ibiza.

[VOM1T]

anyone know if tomorrows NCE - SOU fight is operating or canx due General Strike in France ?

[canberra97]

I defintly think that Minorca and Ibiza could work well from Southampton with Flybe along with Barcelona, also Milan.

A return of Air Berlin to Paderborn and perhaps a new route to Berlin or Cologne.

Lufthansa double daily to Frankfurt and Munich and maybe Hamburg.

( I work in the cruise business and Cunard have many German origionating passengers sailing from Southampton particulary from Hamburg )

A return of KLM to Amsterdam.

Air France to Paris CDG.

Aer Lingus to Dublin.

SAS to Copenhagen.

Easyjet to Geneva ( replacing the BOH route )

SOU is too dependent on Flybe and BAA should be trying to secure new airlines into airport.

On another note I think in hindsight it was a mistake to sell the land where the Post Office depot is now as that would have been the most obvious place to extend the apron stands rather than on the other side of the runway where the planned stands would be built according to the airports masterplan.

[Calmcavok]

Air France codeshare with Flybe SOU-ORY

[Phileas Fogg]

(Lufthansa double daily to Frankfurt and Munich and maybe Hamburg)

Obviously unaware that LH have a significant hub in Dusseldorf that serves well with services to/from other UK airports and before Hamburg comes in to the equation!

(A return of KLM to Amsterdam / Air France to Paris CDG)

It's the same airline, it only takes either of the 'brands' to operate SOU to CDG or AMS because there are plenty of AF/KL AMS/CDG or CDG/AMS flights to transit via the other hub!

[adfly]

I can't see the ezy move happening but am confident that KLM would do very well with connecting traffic as currently you can only fly to Paris Orly which has far fewer routes to connect to but is better for the point to point traffic as it is more convenient for people visiting Paris. The LH routes would do well for both connecting traffic as well as point to point and would probably pave the way to more *A routes and ones from their partner airlines such as Brussles Airlines, Swiss, Lot(big Polish community in Southampton) and SAS.

[RooCat]

Regarding some of the carriers mentioned, a german carrier ie Lufthansa or Air Berlin is almost a necessity in keeping Southampton an open market or un-monopolised airport. It is almost guarenteed though that when the new e-jets start to arrive next year, flybe will open up new routes to germany (Sttutgart has been mentioned among others). Easyjet to Geneva could work but obviously it would be seasonal. I suppose with the expat communities around Southampton, a Polish route would work quite nicely and now that Easyjet, WizzAir and Ryanair have either left/or gone seasonally, maybe an e-jet flight three times weekly would work to Warsaw/Krakow/possibly Katowice or Gdansk. Maybe LOT/Flybe could work on opportunities.
An embarassing fact is that there are two British airlines currently in worldwide alliances, BA in Oneworld (part-owners of Flybe but no code-share from Southampton!)and BMI in Star Alliance, and that the only legacy carrier serving Southampton is Air France-KLM of Skyteam. As part of Walsh's idea to possibly move traffic away from London, could an Air Nostrum crj 200/700 work 3/4 x weekly into either Madrid or Barcelona?BA could then start to codeshare on it?

[ROBERTSFIELD]

Heard a rumour of BMI moving in early 2011 with an ERJ 145, anyone elaborate on this?

[GCILover]

BMI Regional tried this several times when I used to work there but as soon as they showed interest on domestic routes, flybe just upped capacity to scare them off. Flybe say they welcome competition but they certainly do their best to scare it off

[adfly]

BMI would probably work well on more niche routes not currently served by Flybe and also where their is in-sufficient demand for a Q400 operation and the Air Nostrum routes would do very well, especially with a BA codeshare, they could also try VLC seen as they only have the 2 weekly FR BOH flight to compete with in the local area(if they haven't dropped it!).

[RooCat]

But surely BMI aren't looking at Southampton purely for domestic?
Yes, maybe Aberdeen would work as Eastern are the only competitors or possibly a Liverpool or maybe Dublin route? But also Lyon, Copenhagen,Hamburg and Berlin?
Anyway where did this rumour come from ?was it directly from inside BMI r or Southampton airport itself?

[Phileas Fogg]

You guys are totally getting carried away with yourselves, in the last page or so it is being peoposed, from SOU:

KLM to Amsterdam

Air France to CDG

Aer Fungus to Dublin

SAS to Copenhagen

Luxair to Luxembourg

Swiss to Zurich

BMI to Copenhagen, Lyon, Hamburg and Berlin

Lufthansa to Frankfurt, Munich, Dusseldorf, Hamburg and Stuttgart


Crikey guys, you're asking for more services and operators than even England's 2nd largest city of Birmingham has yet SOU is a regional 'town' airport!

To comment on the above, KLM to AMS or AF to CDG, one or the other but not both from 'KLM Air France'.

Dublin as an 'end of the road route' fair enough but a LCC route.

SAS to CPH, business travellers want onward connections on the same airline (for price) and SAS's route network leaves a lot to be desired!

Luxair to LUX, in UK Luxair only serve London, they tried MAN previously, is it seriously being suggested that their 2nd UK destination become SOU before MAN, BHX, Scotland etc?

Swiss, and what a lovely service they provide, in England, they only serve LON, MAN and BHX, next should be SOU?

BMI to CPH, Lyon, HAM and Berlin, CPH, HAM and Berlin already provided, by suggestions, via SAS, LH and Lyon via a connection from umpteen airports already mentioned.

Lufthansa to umpteen points in Germany? Come off it, if AF or KL are already operating, providing the worldwide connections, including connections to these German airports, then why would LH be interested however it only takes one LH route from SOU to provide connections to all over Germany and indeed the world.

Get real guys, SOU is not a major gateway airport and never will be, just as an example Cardiff, on the same level, is only served (for international connections) by KLM and it works very well for travelling the world, you seem to be expecting some 7 such operators and it ain't ever going to happen!

PF

[RooCat]

Adfly, despite contributing to the forementioned airlines , I agree that in the actual reality of airport, some of the airlines and routes mentioned above are a bit of a longshot but then again, this all came about after the recent goings-on with flybe that will see Southampton benefit greatly within the near-distant future.
However, there is a general sense of agreement that the airport needs more than one dominant regional carrier and one legacy carrier. It doesn't make sense that to get to say Berlin or Rome, that would mean having to spend say £300 and four hours in cdg on what should just be a 1-2 hour flight. The airport could benefit greatly from competition and not just a single monopoly;););););)

[adfly]

The need for some competition was the key point I was trying to get across as this benefits the airport and it's passengers no just in variety of routes and frequencys but also helps to reduce fares on popular routes which can often be high if there is no competition. Although Some of the suggested services could be sustained I am in agreement that others are unrealistic such as Luxair However there is plenty of unfilled demand from Sou to Germany and Spain which could easily sustain new airlines.

[Phileas Fogg]

Roocat,

And I neglected to mention, in my previous post, the suggestion of direct flights SOU to Poland.

Regarding your post, and as an example, BHX was my most convenient airport and I was a regular traveller to MXP and FCO. LCC's operated direct flights, except rather than MXP to BGY, however, for much the same price, if not cheaper, via a 30 minute to 1 hour connection in ZRH, Swiss operated the same routes in clean, comfortable, and friendly crewed cabins and one received a complimentary beer and and snack on each sector.

Now, go figure, with which of the two options a businessman might choose to travel with?

Another example, I was a regular traveller BHX/DUS, LH operated direct flights however, on one occasion, LH wre so expensive I didn't think twice about booking with KLM via AMS, I was going to be a bar for the evening anyway so it didn't matter to me if it was the bar in the Irish Pub in AMS airport or the bar in the Holiday Inn DUS airport!


If connections are too much for SOU pax to bear then perhaps SOU needs direct flights to every point on the planet, please let me know when the SOU to Sydney, Australia service may be starting!

[Aero Mad]

PF, I think he meant more direct routes...

[RooCat]

Phileas Fogg, once again I agree with you. Every once in a while, maybe 3/4 months or so, Southampton's thread is revived and every time the same thing hapens. There is maybe one peice of news and that sparks a whole debate of "what-ifs?"I believe this is no different, which is fine but everybody (including myself!!) does get carried away from the reality of the situation!!

However, people are pointing out some obvious blanks or gaps in the market, ie more Spain/German/Scandinavian routes then currently offered. And with the economy slowly recovering and with Flybe investing millions more into the local economy, it could be very exciting to watch within the next year or so!(Did anyone read the article on Southampton in this month's Airliner World?It doesn't really mention anything about expansion other than Flybe););)

[adfly]

Its good to be ambitious!!-the same thing happens in many of the threads for smaller airports such as Bournemouth and Doncaster and even some larger airports such as Manchester. On a more realistic note (!) does anyone know when Flybe plan to base some 175's here and how many will be based. At the moment the first two are going to GCI for the LGW route next summer so I would guess that W11/12 would be when we first start seeing them at SOU - you never know we may even get an odd one at the end of S11!! For an extra 14 flights each day (which is what the news article says (~10 for new routes and ~4 for extra frequency's on existing routes) FlyBe would need to base 4 or 5 at SOU depending on how many return flights they do each day (3 or 4) and at the moment I don't think there is sufficient stand capacity for this so it looks like BAA better get building some of the new stands east of the runway to accommodate them. On a sidenote how many aircraft do FLyBe currently base in SOU - last time I heard it was 7x DH4's and 3x E95's - has anything changed recently?

[Phileas Fogg]

Roofly,

I have no particular interest in SOU except that, once upon a time, I worked for Air UK and SOU is my elderly mother's most convenient airport.

Just as an example KLM's smallest aircraft are F70's, I think with 84 seats, are KLM likely to fill anywhere near to 84 seats out of SOU, particularly, if in competition with the likes of LH, SAS, BMI, LOT, Iberia, Luxair, AF etc. etc. etc? These guys must be on drugs! :)

adfly,

Smaller airports such as BOH and Finningley? Smaller airports than SOU in what respect, dimensions of runway(s), parking ramps, terminal facilities, how are these airports smaller than SOU or do you really mean 'developing airports' rather than smaller airports?

[adfly]

I meant smaller aiports as if they all mainly serve local areas and have passenger numbers of 800,000-2m per year, Southamptn included. Developing is a good way to sum them up.

[Phileas Fogg]

Asfly,

I think you'll find that (BOH) Hurn was one of the original London Airports with BOAC operating, from, to such destinations as Australia!

Many years ago I worked for a LGW based B707 & DC10 operator, we would send our aircaft to BOH for crew training (circuits and bumps), all served to provide BOH with valuable revenue, any guesses why we didn't send our B707's & DC10's to SOU for circuits and bumps and why, instead, we sent them to a 'smaller' airport than SOU?

[canberra97]

I am aware Flybe code share with Air France but I would have liked Air France to have shared the flights between CDG or Orly route along with Flybe code sharing on both flights.

[canberra97]

I am aware of Dusseldorf being a hub in it's own right but as Hamburg is not currently served from Southampton and the fact that many passengers fly from Hamburg to Heathrow to connect with the cruise liners from Southampton in particular Cunard Lines Queen Mary 2 I added it to my wish list of destinations.

On August 04th 2010 the Queen Mary 2 had just under 350 German passengers onboard with just under 250 of those arriving from Hamburg to Heathrow!

[canberra97]

I am aware that Air France / KLM are one group but as I stated KLM to Amsterdam and Air France to CDG.

[Phileas Fogg]

Canberra,

Earlier this year I was booking Cardiff to Singapore, Cardiff only being served by KLM, not available directly on KLM or AF websites but available on such sites as Cheap Flights | Search & Compare Flight Offers - Fly.com (http://www.fly.com/uk/) , and on price, rather than book on KLM I booked and travelled on AF8348 (operated by KLM) CWL/AMS then I flew with AF AMS/CDG/SIN and with good connection times.

For an airfield, and catchment area, the size of SOU there is little, if any, need for 'KLM Air France' to operate 2 routes!

[adfly]

But a link to one of AF/KLM's major hubs (cdg/ams) is needed so people can connect to many worldwide destinations as Orly has only a few AF connecting routes and is only really good for people who are visiting Paris.

[canberra97]

exactly adfly;)

[Phileas Fogg]

Exactly adfly? But you were asking for, both, KL to AMS and AF to CDG?

For connecting passengers, let's say, KLM would need to operate a minimum of 3 rotations per day, are KLM likely to fill anywhere near to 3 x 84 seaters per day out of SOU ..... particularly if the likes of Lufthansa, LOT and all those other suggested routes are being operated from SOU?

AF utilise smaller aircraft than F70's so that might be more reasonable.

[adfly]

In my post above I specifically say that there only needs to be a link to one of the major hubs for connections sake and if we just ignore all of the other suggestions for now then KLM will quite easily fill 3 84 seaters a day(F70's are almost the same capacity as DH4's) with mainly connecting traffic and also some p2p and then you have the AF/FlyBe codeshare Orly route which, will be almost entirely p2p traffic going to Paris.

[Phileas Fogg]

adfly,

I sincerely apologise, I was confusing you with someone else.

I agree, currently CWL is my local airport, when BHX was my local airport, and what a lovely airport BHX is to travel through on the business routes, I was spoilt for choice with the likes of Swiss, KLM, LH, AF, SAS etc, currently just up the road from CWL I'd be lost were it not for the KLM service to AMS and worldwide thereafter.

And I'm a Londoner, I think I'd rather top myself than travel thru LHR :)

[adfly]

Not a problem Philias Fogg!-I suppose unlike many uk airports SOU does have the slight issue of being about 90mins from the uk's two largest airports but even then there is still some unfilled demand!!

[Phileas Fogg]

Isn't MAN the 2nd largest airport, it certainly has more (active at the same time) runways than LGW?

A friend of mine, who lives in Liverpool, had previously been experiencing the nightmare of travelling to London to fly (to direct destinations not served by MAN), when I pointed out to him that KLM had recently added LPL to their network, with good connection times in AMS, he loved it, if a London airport ever sees him again is unlikely. :)

[adfly]

LGW carries an extra 10 m passengers each year but the airfield it self is probably a similar size.

[Wycombe]

According to the Flybe online timetable, SOU will see flights to Pau, Beziers and Clermont-Ferrand in addition to the existing raft of French destinations for S11.

Having said that the Croatian destinations (Dubrovnik, Split) that operated this year appear to have gone.

[adfly]

I'm surprised they haven't added Toulouse and Lyon before adding those three!

[Cloud1]

Are they not the AF codeshare services available to BE passengers via Orly?

[Wycombe]

I wondered that, but times suggest otherwise, eg, Beziers timings as follows:

Southampton - Beziers
BE3915 10:35 13:35 M . . . F . . - - 27-May-11 - 09-Sep-11

Beziers - Southampton
BE3916 14:10 15:05 M . . . F . . - - 27-May-11 - 09-Sep-11

Block time of around 2 hours seems about right for that route on the Dash?

[Cloud1]

hmm interesting! Then again it wouldnt surprise me, EXT-DUS was announced in the media before the official press release from Flybe! Although I am surprised at the same time that these regional routes are all from Southampton.......will there be sufficient demand for them?

[adfly]

If these routes succeed then perhaps Eastern should look at offering a few flights per week for its Dijon base on a J41 or S20 if there is sufficient demand. Will these new flybe destinations really be able to perform well on Q400's though?

[RooCat]

The flights to Beziers, Pau and Clermont-Ferrand now confirmed in a press release on the Flybe website. (timetable below from website but same as previously mentioned by other users :) )
Beziers
Operates twice weekly Monday and Friday effective May 27th - September 10th, 2011
Depart Southampton 1045 arr Beziers 1340
Depart Beziers 1420 arr Southampton 1505
Clermont-Ferrand
Operates 3xweekly Monday, Thursday and Saturday effective May 21st - September 10th
Monday/Thursday flights
Depart Southampton 1050 arr Clermont-Ferrand 1325
Depart Clermont-Ferrand 1350 arr Southampton 1425
Saturday flights
Depart Southampton 1140 arr Clermont-Ferrand 1415
Depart Clermont-Ferrand 1440 arr Southampton 1515
Pau operating from May 21st to September 7th 2x weekly on Wednesdays and Sundays.
Depart Southampton 10:45 Arrive Pau 13:40
Depart Pau 14:10 Arrive Southampton 15:05 - Wednesday schedule

Depart Southampton 14:05 Arrive Pau 17:00
Depart Pau 17:30 Arrive Southampton 18:25- Sunday schedule

Also has been suggested on the Flybe forum that Southampton could start to receive some new embraers from S11. Can anyone elaborate? :)

RC

[big d1]

Nothing new from within with regards to the E175 deliveries. 1st is still off to Guernsey in April time, then the rest start to arrive from Sept with no know locations yet. Always liable for change though. Maybe this is the first hint.

[RooCat]

Just been browsing some very odd articles about aviation on the IOW and managed to come across an old pprune forum regarding bembrisge/sandown. The question that came to mind was that could a small aircraft such as a let 410, twotter or trislander operate a route from Southampton/Bournemouth to the IOW maybe 3x daily and show that there is demand for air traffic from the IOW.

No catches or anything but it was just a random question that maybe others have opinions on or agree with

RC:)

[TCAS FAN]

RooCat

Technically due to the short sector length the runway physical sizes at both aerodromes may be adequate. However, to operate for public transport purposes the aerodromes would need to be licensed, Sandown recently gave up their licence plus there is doubt as to the continued use of the site as an aerodrome.

Bembridge remains licensed but woud need massive investment to improve the aerodrome's infrastructure to support scheduled air transport movements. This would probably require provision of an ATC Unit and instrument approaches to ensure some level of regularity of service. Who is going to pay? Sounds far fetched enough for the EU to pour in millions to achieve it!

Finally who is going to operate the service? Would suggest that any chance of sucess woulod need something the size of an Islander, very appropriate as Bembridge is the birth place of it. Problem then is to how is the aircraft going to make money for the rest of the day after a few SOU roundtrips?

Nice thought, but cannot see it happening.

[Aero Mad]

Aurigny could use a Trislander on an ACI - SOU - BBP - SOU - ACI sector, to tie in with the ACI - SOU services already in place. I know that British Midland chucked a Dash 7 into Bembridge on a summer basis some years ago.

[virginblue]

Flybe has - IIRC not for the first time - applied for slots for a weekdaily SOU service at MUC for next summer. Aircraft filed is a Q400.

[airhumberside]

The morning slots were cleared for over an hour earlier than applied for (0455 arrival rather than requested 0615) so they are probably unusable

The afternoon slots were also cleared quite a bit earlier than applied for, but maybe suitable for a once daily service if Flybe wanted, and felt it viable, to offer such a frequency

[RooCat]

cheers TCAS Fan and Aeromad!
AM-I liked your idea about aurigny doing a route like so.It would make sense for a number of reasons! but maybe an airline like Manx2 who could base an ai9rcraft in bembridge/sandown for an early morning flight to southampton and back again, then doing a one way to bournemouth, and from there go down to the channel islands:
BBP-SOU-BBP-BOH-JER-BOH-BBP-SOU-BBP-BOH-GUE-BOH-BBP
I suppose if its an early morning start,7am lets say, the aircraft can complete a schedule like so by maybe 2pm or 3pm based on size!

However, we are probably beyond anybody wanting to operate a service from SOU to BBP but in perspective maybe a couple of times daily to connect to hubs and centres such as Manchester, Glasgow, Newcastle, Edinburgh etc would work nicely and certainly benefit in the summer!

RC

[Aero Mad]

Dare I say it, but I have my reservations about the profitability of a BOU - JER/GCI service, and the airlines willing to fly it.

Blue Islands ditched ACI - BOU (2009), BMIBaby ditched JER - BOU (2010) and Aurigny ditched JER - BOU (back in 2004) for a reason.

[RNWY03]

There have been comments on other sites re the ineffectiveness in poor weather of the ILS at SOU. I dont know the required minima but is there room to upgrade the current CAT1 system? How do the operating airlines feel about having to regularly divert each time there is fog/snow etc . Are they bothered or is it just accepted as part of the SOU routine that seems to occur each winter? I would have thought that Flybe as the biggest carrier would be 'having words' with the BAA management especially with the current proposals for route expansion and new aircraft in the offing?

[Wycombe]

The ILS Rwy20 at SOU is uncategorised as far as I know.

[NorthSouth]

AIP text says uncategorised but the ILS plate gives OCAs for all categories of aircraft which would give a 200ft decision height, and refers to these as "CAT 1". The 'uncat' designation may be due to obstacles between DH and threshold or a host of other issues such as locations of holding points.
NS

[TCAS FAN]

Following action by the UK to remove undeclared Differences from ICAO SARPs (just before an ICAO audit of the UK?) it is my understanding that there is no longer such an animal as an "uncatergorised" ILS in the UK, albeit that AIP entries have not yet been amended.

In respect of those ILS in UK that were formally "uncategorised", often due to the obstacle environment in the precision segment of the approach, and a resultant inability to meet CAP 168 (aka ICAO Annex 14) requirements for an obstacle free precision approach runway approach surface, the CAA has been forced into a more pragmatic position as a way of killing off the UK "uncategorised" ILS.

The result is that the SOU ILS will shortly become CAT 1, possibly by mid January 2011. Using a computer based programme, known as a "collision risk model" the obstacle environment is analysised and a DH based upon the actual obstacle environment. I tried to get CAA to agree to it for SOU 18 years ago, and was shown the door with some muttering of "over my dead body".

The result at SOU should be an ILS RVR minima of 700 metres (due to restricted approach lighting) and 100+ FT off the current DH. This should of course minimise the future chances of go-arounds with 2000+ metres vis and BKN 200 FT.

To all my soon to be former customers at BEE, AUR, and EZE enjoy, sorry it was so long in coming.

[RNWY03]

thanks TCAS fan - I guessed it had to be something to do with obstacle clearance heights. It will no doubt be welcomed by all of us who live under the SOU flight path!

[TCAS FAN]

Well done Airside OPS at SOU for getting the airport back in operation after the earlier snow today.

[Keyvon]

Thomas Cook has announced a new summer charter destination : Mahon (Menorca).It will be a Sunday service operated by Flybe.

Flybe will also operate charter flights to Majorca on behalf of both Thomson and Thomas Cook.

[adfly]

Great News!!, I always felt that Menorca was a gap in SOU's destination list as it is popular in the summer and easily reachable with a full E195. I remember when Air Europa used to operate it back in 2002-2004(I think) on 734's.

[Expressflight]

TCAS FAN is correct in his explanation of how the current 'uncategorised' UK ILS's will become CAT I and in most cases will benefit from a lower OCH, but surely the UK minimum DH for a CAT I ILS will remain at 200ft will it not?

SEN is in a similar situation but even with ALSF appoach lighting and runway centreline lights, plus IRVR, all to be installed shortly on runway 24 as part of the redevelopment programme, they still anticipate a DH of 200ft for a code C aircraft and RVR minima of 550m, those being the CAP 168/ICAO Annex 14 system minima for a CAT I installation.

[canberra97]

Thomson also operated SOU to Menorca with 757s for one season, cant remember what year it was but I know my brother used it and can remember it being on the schedule, if memory serves me right I think it was 2003 but if anyone can comform what year it was!

All we need now is for Thomas Cook or Thomson to announce Ibiza and that will be the Balearics sorted!

But come on Flybe when are you going to realise that there is a strong market to Barcelona!!!

[uptoncol]

With ref to the Mahon flight which britannia airways use to opperate the 757 into southampton was year 2000 flight no was by 127 a/ b cheers col .

[MARKEYD]

Thomson have up graded the Saturday Palma flight from FlyBe to Spanair now and with Mahon re introduced on a Sunday it looks like they are wasting no time in increasing flights now that Palmair holidays from Bournemouth have gone into the Deep Freeze

[adfly]

What is the Thomson Mahon service being operated by or are the just selling seats on the Thomas Cook Flybe flight?

[uptoncol]

With ref to charter flights from southampton for 2011 ,thomson have changed to using spanair on the thursday flight and that is the only charter flight being opperated by thomson .

The saturday flight is a thomas cook holiday being chartered by flybe ,the sunday flight is for thomas cook again being chartered by flybe

cheers for now col

[adfly]

Does anyone know where I can find information on the stand sizes at Southampton and what aircraft each stand can accommodate?

[Nakata77]

Go to CAA website and download the UK AIP chart for southampton airport for the information on stands/layout; but exact dimensions of stands i'm not certain.

Most are sized for the 737-300, except for some near the east apron which have smaller wing span capability. If 757 ever uses the airport, they use 2 stands for the aircraft. But that hasn't happened for a number of years.

Go to southampton airport website and download the masterplan for information on the number of stands and future stand expansion...

[TCAS FAN]

adfly

Stand 1 Max wingspan 19.25 M, no Max fuselage length specified, although Q400s parked on there.
Stands 2-5 Max wingspan 29 M, fuselage length 41.67 M
Stand 5 Max tailfin height 10.95 M
Stands 6-13 Max wingspan 29M, fuselage length 41.67 M,Max tailfin height 9M
Stand 14 Max wingspan 29 M, Max length 29 M, tailfin height 9 M

Standby for the cunning plan where/how the E175s are going to be parked with the stands 2-4 taken up with E195s and the occasional A320.

[adfly]

Thanks for the information guys!:ok:

[adfly]

So almost all of the stands will take a CRJ700/900/1000 but only one will be capable for basing the E175's(5) as 2-4 are currently taken by the three based E195's so it looks like BAA better hurry up and build the planned new stands to the east of the runway and make sure they are not too close for the E175's. I believe Flybe's plan is to base up to 4 E175's which would be the ideal number for the extra 14 outbound flights a day they talk of(10 new routes and the remaining four used to increase capacity/frequency on existing routes).