Personal Weapons Etiquet on Entering C-130

[rjtjrt]

What is the required state for a rifle to be in when enterring a C-130 (or any a/c) when operationally deployed?

Once on deployment I was tasked to carry a stretcher patient onto a C-130. The required state for personal weapons on the airfield at that time was "Loaded".

Before entering the a/c I unloaded the weapon to err on the side of caution, but have always wondered what was the correct choice.

I wonder what the various national air forces consider to be SOP's. In my case it is RAAF.

I am medical and thus considered to be a dill by all operational types

[animo et fide]

If you could make your weapons safe on the mighty wokka. Emergency exits are here, here and here! :sad:

[ProfessionalStudent]

On SH, it's "Made Safe". ie loaded but not one up the spout. Though unless you're combat troops jumping into somewhere, I don't really see the point in boarding a Herc with it loaded. If it all goes Pete Tong in a Herc, I think the least of your worries will be a weapon that's unloaded...

[Bluntend]

General rule of thumb is unloaded everytime no arguements unless on spec ops etc.

[buoy15]

Simple!

Complete the action and declare - "This weapon is "Made Safe"

Procedure:

According to the Rocks - "If you stumble across a weapon", or you are about to enter indoors, bus, truck or ac etc you make the weapon safe

Unload - Remove the magazine

Cock the weapon at least twice - Check and ensure there are no live rounds in the breach - fit the magazine and fire the action in a safe direction - weapon is now Made Safe - however, it's still a loaded weapon, because it has a magazine fitted - even if the magazine is empty (Catch 22) Ha! Like a pickaxe handle with no bullets!
Don't be too frightend though, your Guard Commander or friendly Load Master should always be there to guide you through the motions

Have Fun!!

[Red Line Entry]

Might just be being picky, but don't you fire off the action BEFORE putting the magazine back on (in case there is somehow a round in the chamber and you have the damn thing set to AUTO!!!)

[Logistics Loader]

Whilst serving at GUT it was SOP for all flights to BFS/QBM carrying troops on roulement to have them formed up by the chalk commander and have them make weapons safe, unload.

This was overseen by the Movs staff, the info was then passed to the ALM.

As for going into an Operational theatre, I would seek guidance on this matter.

[Griz]

"Might just be being picky, but don't you fire off the action BEFORE putting the magazine back on"

Does that not depend on the size of your weapon? Doesn't the wee spud gun need a magazine in to do all that s***? (I can just sense I'm leaving myself open to all kinds of abuse):\

[Compass Call]

I think that some weapons require a magazine to be fitted before the action can be fired.
Perhaps a 'plumber' or 'bomb-head' could enlighten us:ok:

CC

[Talking Radalt]

This was overseen by the Movs staff


Uh-oh. Here we go again.... :rolleyes:

[Charlie Luncher]

Dude

Keep yer weapon ready to deal with chubby grumpy LMs or their sexually abused helpers:hmm: .

Retiring behind kevlar jacket, for all the good that will be:sad: .
Charlie sends

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I reckon the golden rule is don't be at action, and don't change states of weapons readiness on the aircraft. Can't make a mistake and fire your load off inadvertantly :)

L9A1 browning requires a mag on to fire. Unless you have fingers long enough to keep your wife very very amused :p

[Twonston Pickle]

Further to Pass's reply, the mag must be empty (according to the good book)

[Bluntend]

Perhaps a 'plumber' or 'bomb-head' could enlighten us He did - General rule of thumb is unloaded everytime no arguements unless on spec ops etc.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Nope, you can fire it with a full magazine (just make sure you don't put the mag on before you slide the action forward :)

[Twonston Pickle]

Pass,

Well aware that you can fire off the action with a full mag but the point is that you shouldn't ; seen too many people get complacent, especially on ops, and things can go horribly, horribly wrong.

Regards,

TP (former bomb-head, now blunty(don't ask))

[I_stood_in_the_door]

Regular Capt to SF Trooper 'Son, your safety is off'.

SF Trooper sticks up finger and smiling, replies 'This is my safety!'

In true septic fashion, 'lock and load, its gonna be a hot one!!'

But if you ever get the chance, peruse the ATF footage of the assault on Waco. Look out for the agent who accidently shoots himself in the foot whilst scaling an assault ladder. That will inspire you to apply your safety!!

And remember, 'If it runs, its VC*. If it don't run, its dead VC!!'

* insert enemy of choice.

ISITD

:}

[Talking Radalt]

I thought the quote went:
"If they run...they're VC, If they stand still, they're well disciplined VC"?

[monkeybumhead]

I, myself, keep my personal weapon well hidden when on the trusty old C130 so as not to offend those with very good eyesight.;)

[Logistics Loader]

Radalt,

My post was not to start a trade war, just telling it as it was at that time.

The passengers whether it was for a troop move or the school kids visits were under the remit of the movs staff until handed over to the ALM..

It was a Flight Safety issue that was the main point of concern in ensuring this was done...

rgds

LL

[US Herk]

When asked about "various national air forces SOPs", we need to remember that terminology, weapons, weapons conditions/states, & SOPs are all very different.

As the various states/actions taught to me while on the RAF for a short time caused my tiny brain to hurt, I'll devolve to my two septic states: loaded or unloaded.

Loaded = full mag, one up the pipe, hammer down, safety off. Double-action makes noise.

Unloaded = no mag inserted, nothing up the pipe, safety on. Nothing makes noise.

To me, this is far simpler than safe, ready, make safe, load, unload...etc. Granted, there are action differences between the Beretta 92F & the Browning Hi-Power that make this not necessarily an equal translation, however, if there's a mag in, it's a live weapon. Full stop, end of discussion. Treat it as such. Use your national SOPs to make it safe.

As for carriage on the mighty Hercules - I'd prefer you to unload your weapon before boarding. If, however, you'll be deplaning onto a hot LZ, please be sensible. :ok:

[rugmuncher]

Made Safe= Unload followed by a load!

First thing off= magazine

Last thing on = magazine.

It aint worth taking shorcuts,, ask anyone from deepcut !!!

[Washington_Irving]

Jesus wept. NSPs by committee.

Nice summary Rugmuncher. The rest of you need to go and talk to a rockape. The MoD has put a 25m barrack range on your station for a reason. Even if they won't give you any ammunition, a sneaky 10 mins dry training with an armourer could immeasurably improve the prospects of you returning with the same number of people and body parts you started with.

[gijoe]

According to the Rocks - "If you stumble across a weapon", or you are about to enter indoors, bus, truck or ac etc you make the weapon safe

If you stumble across a weapon...:sad:...leave it there and get a bomb-doc to look at it before you touch it.

Lots are primed to go bang by nasty blokes.

G

[Clockwork Mouse]

I was a pongo in former years and was on exercise with the AMF(L) in Denmark in the late 1980s. There had been a number of civilian airliner hi-jackings in the preceeding months.

At the end of the exercise we paraded, knackered and grubby, in our warlike kit festooned with weapons, at the Danish airhead for the return flight to UK, courtesy of CrabAir.

To our amazement the movers announced that, in accordance with air transport regulations, we were not permitted to board the aircraft carrying knives with a blade longer than x inches. RAF personnel then examined the personal kit of every soldier and officer, measuring bayonets, parangs, pocket knives and survival knives and collecting all offending items, labelled with the owner's name, in sacks which were then loaded onto the aircraft. This took a couple of hours. We then all trooped onto the VC10 and returned home, safe from hi-jacking.

God know's at what level this act of lunacy was initiated and I'm sure it was all a regrettable misunderstanding. But is it any wonder that green despises blue, aircrew despise airtraffickers etc and everyone despises movers? Except me of course.

[Logistics Loader]

CM....

Well if the task of taking knives from your unit took hours to complete it was down to your unit.......!!!! Unable to read and digest the Movement Instruction which is issued to assist in your deployment.

As the RAF VC10 is only capable of carrying a maximum passenger load of 129 troops in a standard seating configuration, there was no way it would take as long as you state.

The rules are not just for MOD aircraft , but are the same for civilian aircraft, instigated in the UK by the CAA or in USA by the FAA.

Furthermore on the subject of the size of blade, that is a Police matter. It is an offence to carry a blade of more than 3ins in public.

As most pongo's tend to go away on Exercises tooled up like an extra from a Rambo movie, its no surprise you will be stopped by the Movements Staff and the RAF Police whose duty it is to ensure Flight Safety....!!!!!!

The list of items not allowed to be carried on aircraft is rather comprehensive, however, there are rules in force which may allow items to be carried if they are packed in accordance with current safety regulations.

If you dont know the rules, ask !!! It might be a dumb question which has been asked before, however it may not of been...

After all, VC10 takes off fine with 129 exercise troops....plus 9 crew
Pte Bloggs has left his Coleman stove in his bergan, not declared it, serious of events combine to ignite stove...

RESULT =

134 Dead Aircraft lost...

WHY.....?????

Thick Squaddie thought HE KNEW BETTER !!!!

I rest my case....

[mystic_meg]

129 exercise troops....plus 9 crew

134 Dead

...when I went to school, 129+9 = 138!

...I rest my case.... :mad:

[Logistics Loader]

you must be RAF ,,??

Army cant count !!

My excuse, still learning to type

Thanks for correction though....

[Daedal_oz]

Immortal safety catch quotes:

Steele:Sergeant, what's the meaning of this?
[Thinking he's talking about the unauthorized pig picking]

"Hoot": Just a little aerial target practice, sir. Didn't want to leave 'em behind.

Steele: I'm talking about your weapon, soldier. Now Delta or no-Delta, that's still a hot weapon. Your safety should be on at all times.

"Hoot": This is my safety, sir.

[He holds up his index finger and bends motions as if squeezing a trigger and then walks off]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/EricArchives/Films/BlackHawkDown/Behind-The-Scenes/BHD-BTS-036.jpg

I suppose this would be good enough for C130 too.:rolleyes:

[Clockwork Mouse]

And there I was thinking the lunacy was all a regrettable misunderstanding, when it was actually for real all the time! I'll have to amend my personal view of movers.

And how silly of us ridiculous pongos going off to practise war equipped like Rambos! We should take our tennis rackets and golf clubs in future. I suppose there are plenty of bunkers in Iraq.

Thank you. I am now much wiser.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

CM,

If it's any consolation most Aircrew would quite happily let you on "booted and spurred", cos lets face it the back of Albert is awash with potential hijack kit in the guise of tensioners, chains, fire axes etc but movers rules is movers rules :}

all spelling mistakes rae "df" alcohol induced

[Logistics Loader]

ABIW...

Most of the rules are from the CAA of which as you know MOD complies with..

Carriage of knives is a Police matter same as you cant walk down RAF Wotton Basset High Street with a knife over 3ins....its an offence....

Go back to your galley and make a fresh coffee, then re-read who makes the rules....Movers only follow them...

BTW...

I heard even the CAS had his aircrew knife confiscated !!!
Where ???? LHR on checking in for a Brit Air flight....
Movers involved here NO !!!!!
Civ Police involved Yes !!!

I rest my case for the defence M'lud !!!!

[DP Harvey]

LL, whoever you are, you are a pr@t of the highest order. Firstly, as a military organisation the RAF has the right to make its own rules about the carriage of weapons, so don't quote civil law when discussing military cargo and pax.

Secondly, by default every UK/Allied military person who boards an RAF aircraft is ON OUR SIDE. He/she is not going to deliberately attempt to do anything to damage the aircraft or those on board...and don't start any further discussion about nutters and carelessness. A simple set of orders to trust the individual to make the weapon safe followed by an independant check will suffice.

And finally, the business about civil check in and rules....there is a fundamental difference between a military transport system where only authorised personnel may fly and the civil airlines where anyone with the necessary cash can get onboard, hence the rules about knives, etc. Don't confuse professional soldiers with tatooed f**kwits

Yes, we know you didn't make the rules, but you let yourself down by espousing them as some sort of flight safety message. I can just about accept the RAFP's need to check bags for illegal souveniers...but thats not a flight safety issue.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

DP,

We did this to death a while back and you can keep pointing out the bleedin obvious to the baggage crushers and they will still quote chapter and verse in the manner LL does :rolleyes:

Amazin how they can change IATA's, the civilian Dangerous Air Cargo bible to suit op's and ex needs yet can't accept that trained soldiers, sailors etc etc are on our side and therefore a gerber leatherman etc poses no threat on military flights:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Logistics Loader]

DP...

By your own admission , the RAF makes the rules....!!!
Therefore surely it is incumbent on all Service personnel to abide by them..

IATA (Dangerous Air Cargo regs) is not solely used for the carriage of equipment.. JSP 335 is used for that kit which is not carried rountinely by CivAir....mainly service kite without detailing what that is....leave that to your wealth of in service knowledge to work out...

I agree wholeheartedly about carriage of nutters, as you so quaintly put it...could you spot one though...???
Hence carrying an Amed Team with suitably qualified personnel to deal with it...

Illegal Souvenirs!!!
That in my book was always a flight safety issue...!!!

You cannot carry empty shell cases without an FFE certificate as i'm sure you are aware. I know your reply may well say, there is little or no threat from an empty shell case...maybe an Armourer would be able to tell us the Exact risk here !!!

I would not profess to knowing how to do a Cat 3 approach to PRN, not being a front ender...i leave that in the hands of those well trained, well paid types , that i used to "wave" to passing SHQ...so by the same token those others amongst the groundcrew whose task it is to service/refuel/load etc should be allowed to make decisions, based on knowledge and expertise gained from seeing the problems that can arise from someone elses lack of understanding of the risks carrying something illegal could do..

The 737 lost in Florida Everglades had a problem with dodgy cargo IIRC...

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"The 737 lost in Florida Everglades had a problem with dodgy cargo IIRC"..........which was accepted checked and loaded by movers, which is why we, in the RAF have built in that final overall safety check.....the ALM:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Clockwork Mouse]

LL

You continue to make my point for me. The CIVILIAN police would stop you carrying a 3" blade in Wooton Bassett High Street. The CAS was pulled up at the CIVILIAN LHR while travelling CIV AIR! As you say in your defence, movers NO, Civ Pol YES.

If your logic was applied, the Met would arrest the Brigade of Guards at Trooping the Colour for illegal carriage of bayonets and swords. Let's hope the Met don't have movers.

However, we were soldiers, returning with all our warlike (sorry, Rambo) kit from several weeks practising the scientific application of legal state violence. And we were not travelling Civ Air (or so we thought) but Crab Air. Military professionals working with military professionals, or so we thought.

So when other so called MILITARY (who were not filthy and exhausted like us) armed with rulers and tape-measures took away our pen knives before allowing us to board a MILITARY flight, we were somewhat bemused, but definitely not amused.

The funny thing was, although our longs were all bundled up, we were still allowed to keep our pistols. I suppose the twit responsible reasoned that you can't stab anyone effectively with a Browning. I really think the movers were negligent in not taking away our pencils though. You can do a lot of damage with a sharpened HB. As I'm sure you know as I presume that is your weapon of choice.

Do you still rest your case, M'Lud?

[Logistics Loader]

CM...

I concur wholeheartedly my brown/green suited friend....

The rules are a mockery of the system..as you point out, your sharps are taken away from you..yet you keep yr browning...i've never been pistol whipped so dont know what it feels like...!!

As i have said the rules are not made by the Movers/Police per se..but our peers n masters...thats where thefault lies...
We have moved on leaps and bounds in various aspects of service life...but when it comes to Air Travel, sometimes we are behind the drag curve...

Bear in mind though, post 9/11, all sharp implements were banned in the aircraft cabin for fear of hijack...
But then at 33,000ft they serve you a steak dinner complete with steak knife....so we go full circle again...!!!

Maybe a solution would be for the QM to have a Tommy Bin purely for you guys to place your sharps into...just a thought...it could be part of his stores replen set up so would not be a penalty to the overall move..

ABIW...
Florida 737, i dont have the full facts to hand but IIRC it was down to the Consignor falsely declaring the goods. It slipped through the checks as i believe there was nothing untoward to raise concerns...
And I know there have been occasions in the RAF where the final overall safety catch the ALM has not picked up an error..

Why???
Because we are human and yes we do make mistakes but hopefully live to tell the tale and learn from them to ensure that there is never a repeat which may prove costly..

[monkeybumhead]

Rules may be rules, but how about the aplication of a little common sense. I remember just a couple of years back, after 9/11, flying back from a hot sandy place on Albert with my trusty Leatherman by my side and not being asked to remove it or hand it to some plod/bag crusher. Flight went on time, no hijack attempts were made and everyone was happy.

[Logistics Loader]

I had the same, MPN to foreign a/f, my leatherman too was on my belt !!!
Odd that !!! Wasnt asked and we all landed safely too !!

[Lister Noble]

Many years ago I kept a boat at Aldeburgh and used to take pilots from Bentwaters out sailing,in return I used to get into the officers mess for my first taste of a real beefburger.
One day ,must have been in 1974,I was on the base with the officer in charge of air sea rescue for that part of the world and we saw some films on Vietnam shot by airforce crew ,I also had a good look around a Jolly Green Giant.
He was in civil dress, as obviously I was as well.
To round off the day he asked if I would like to look around a C-130,if I remember this all correctly we went to a control center and I think he was given a code to unlock the aircraft door,I don't think it was keys,and we drove out to the plane in his old BMW.
Anyway I was sitting in the pilots seat and a jeep screamed up and skidded to a halt and the next thing I'm looking down the barrel of a very large handgun!
The guard saw the officer and recognised him and all was OK,
apparently the people in the control place had not told the security guards that we going out to the plane.
I was very lucky to have been around then as you certainly would not be able to get onto a US base like that today.
Lister

[monkeybumhead]

There are a few times I have flown from goose $hit central and not had to declare mr multi-tool. The same can be said for Lyneham and Akrotiri as well. I guess it just depends on the pedantic to$$ers around at the time, or weather the common sense custodian is on duty at the time.

[C-130 Driver]

It is generally up to the Loadie and unless you are special and on an op; unloaded is the SOP.

[Army Mover]

The defintion that C-130 driver quotes is as I remember it. On Ops, weapons were made safe (which is a full unload, followed by a load).

I can remember having to convince chalks emplaning to NI that when they got to Aldergrove, they would not need to jump off the aircraft with guns blazing. Even those heading South by SH would have time to prepare on arrival.

During GW1, the first few aircraft out of Gutersloh left with soldiers carrying their weapons in their hands, but as soon as it became obvious there was no immediate threat requiring immediate access to a fire arm, more attention was paid to making sure they had adequate NBC kit and the weapons were carried in the holds/weapon rolls.

[Sunfish]

Just a point, when you do unload, check that there isn't a round stuck to the face of the bolt it can happen on some weapons and my military career almost ended when one of my Corporals put a hole in the roof from said cause.

[Blacksheep]

1. Troops travelling as pax in a vehicle or aircraft are not in a position to engage a target and therefore should not have 'one up the spout'. The weapon should be made safe upon entry into the aircraft and remain in that condition until exiting the aircraft.
This is not the case when travelling in say an APC, in a combat zone, where it would be proper to re-attach a full magazine but not cock the action until exiting the vehicle.

2. A personal weapon is 'loaded' as long as it has a magazine attached as there is no way to tell if there are rounds in the magazine without looking. Its not just the person carrying the weapon who needs to know if its loaded and cocked or not!

I was on Nee Soon Range at a falling plates competition when a fellow member of the FEAF Rifle Team came back from the firing point and put his rifle down pointing directly at me. I had watched him leave the firing point and told him quietly that it was ready to fire but he disagreed, believing he had just done the make-safe drill properly. I picked it up, cocked the action and it ejected a live round.

You never can be too careful.

[hellfyyr]

There has been a good deal of drivel posted in relation to this thread, the actual answer is:

In order to be on any aircraft with a weapon and ammunition held on the person, a request for TFT (Troops in fighting trim) has to have been made and granted. This is only granted if that airctaft is going into a tactical situation where the troops will have to "hit the ground running".

This state therefore allows the soldier to be carrying the weapon, with magazines and any other explosives (ie grenades) stowed correctly in his webbing.

Asise from specialist SF sorties, no passenger should ever be loaded or made ready as some have suggested. The same rules apply for getting onto an aircraft after "action"...

None of this is "etiquette" as the original poster has suggested but rather a hard and fast safety rule!

[snowyflyer]

How about this for a realistic policy over hostile territory: All personnel have their guns in their hands, unbagged and ready for use, with a magazine to hand for self defence if the worst case scenario happens. Agreed, no weapons made ready. That is for outside the aircraft normally. Anyone seen the video of the HIP getting shot down in Iraq? Don't fancy my last thought as "bugger, wish I had some bullets for this gun" or even worse "bugger, my gun is in the hold" Let the operators and the fleet (i.e C130s) decide, not the movers and any other blunts who don't put themselves at risk. Sick of seeing what is patently obvious being obstructed by rulemakers.

[C-130 Driver]

Hellfyyr,
How about you look at my handle and accept that I probably can answer the question better than you. You may know the rules but the original question was about the etiquette. Therefore I refer you to my original answer.

[DP Harvey]

Hellfyyr,
When someone starts his post with the arrogance of your opening comments, I hope to then read a copied and pasted extract from the rule book or least see a reference. Until you produce such information I can only assume that you know nothing more than anyone else here.

[Roadster280]

My own experience of the ridiculous:

I was a squaddie, in BAOR or whatever it is called these days. When UNPROFOR ended, and IFOR took over, my regiment was posted to Bosnia. Two teams went in on day one. 50 odd blokes via Split to pick up some kit, and 7 guys straight into Sarajevo. Pitch up at Brueggen, 2 x Alberts on pan. 50 guys get in one and disappear. The other 7 of us hang around, and pilot comes over to us and asks where our flak jackets were. Mandatory for Sarajevo. So off to RAF stores to draw kit. Onto ac, depart to Sarajevo, and land (controlled dive!). Hot offload, engines running, props spinning, whole nine yards. C130 on ground for two minutes, tops.

The thing was, our weapons were bundled. What was the point of the flak jacket thing and scary landing technique? If a hot reception was expected, hence the protective measures, then it would have been only polite to let us have a fighting chance of defending ourselves when we got off the ac into that stinking $hithole. Bizarrely, our bayonets were OK. No f***ing rifle to fix them too though!

I have no beef with the RAF, a fine job done by all. But the rules were just so disjointed over things like this.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Roadster,

Body armour and crazy daft herc stylee landing perhaps a protection against mortar/artillery attack and risk of MANPADS strike on a/c on the way into airfield?

Although not an expert in this field, suspect the risk of there actually being someone on the field shooting at you that you would be able to shoot back at would be, if not minimal, low-ish.....

Just a thought whilst bored during the enforced stay in the office...

[truckiebloke]

roadster...

It might seem strange that you would land in an area where such tactics were needed and not have a weapon to defend yourself if required!

But just a thought that the airfield would be protected quite heavily for the aircraft and the troops on board anyway, so you wouldnt need it -

As for the crew insisting on body armour - we have to do that now, because if you were shot in flight without having brought it on the a/c, I know that the captain would be hung out to dry....

(and thats irrespective of the passengers being briefed, and the fact that the movers shouldnt allow anyone on without it in the first place)

[November4]

Roadster

As I remember you had to wear body armour/helmets into Sarejevo due to the risk of small arms fire and rockets rather than imminent chance of the airfield being over run and needing to protect yourself. When I saw the aircrew putting on it then I reckoned it was a good idea for everyone to have it on.

If the airfield had been in danger of being over run and you needing to defed yourself - do you really think the Herc would have been allowed to land?

Also, IIRC, the airfield had a large French Foreign Legion prescence who I think would probably have given you enough time to unbundle the weapons if you had needed them that urgently....

[Roadster280]

Sensible answers, thanks.