Jetstar Cross Cockpit Qualifications

[Sandy Freckle]

There is a post in Qrewroom suggesting that CASA has refused Jetstar Pilots their cross cockpit qualifications for the A320 to the A330.

There is another rumour floating around however, that the opposite is true.

Anyone care to comment?

[Arsey Eight]

Yeah, on the dark side we've heard the opposite. Minimum hrs 1000+ req on 320 before you'd do the 330 transition. 5 Day course in MEL. Mind you it is a rumour network.

[flyingcircus]

i believe casa has no problems with the cross crew qualification, not sure what the min standard is to go to the 330, but airbus only requires 130hrs on the 320, but i believe the company will look at making that a lot higher.

[Zeke]

airbus only requires 130hrs on the 320

Prerequisite

Pilot already A320 type rated. Experienced in operating the aircraft for at least 3 months and 150 hours.

9 days total.

http://www.content.airbusworld.com/SITES/train/0500_catalogs/html/A330-A340_Flight/LRF_GFQE_JULY04.htm

[pondoklabu]

I am assuming by this thread this relates to Jet* pilots flying QANTAS 's A330's.
I think cross qual may be the least of your reg hurdles.
Looking at the present flying the A330 does for QANTAS it would have to be a min 180 ETOPS this qual is not quickly attained by the crew or maintenence program, unless of coarse jet star are going to use Qantas's checking and training , QANTAS AOC as well as there maintence program .
If not because Jet* have there own AOC they must start from scratch on proving flights and all the other regulator hurdles.
Its not a quick process.
So to any Jet* pilot buying A330 books it may pay to be patient.
cheers

[Karunch]

Unlikely the Jet* guys will get a look at the 330's for some time, Dec's (direct entry captains) will fill the initial spots and the ex An 320 guys will have to wait until seniority allows them a seat. Pretty much exactly as happened when the 320 arrived. The feelers have gone out for A330 Dec's already, although the package needs some work. Cheers,

[Aussie]

Is QF short of A330 pilots? Why dont they just recuit more pilots?

[connection fee]

When and how many 330's is Jet* getting? and since when ??

:ok:

[Sandy Freckle]

There is nothing at this stage to suggest that Jetstar are or are not getting 330's.

The question was simple. Has CASA approved the Jetstar 320 to 330 Cross Cockpit Qualification?

Don't read anything else into it....

[757manipulator]

Good old CASA...by the sounds of it if its true. "yeah mate we dont wanna believe those Airbus frogs..they dont know anything about flyin the bus and differences courses..nobody knows better than we do at CASA" :rolleyes:

Wheres MOR when you need him to chip in....

[Rostov]

Rumour has it there is some big announcement mid-late this month about Jetstar A330 and cross crew qualifications begining April next year.Hold on tight.....

[Australia2]

And what will they be paying ?

I am guessing much the same as the A320, only in Oz !!

Oz2

[boebus]

Australia2
- You should know! :O You are in HKG. :uhoh: They will do the same as Dragonair - 320 pilots pay will be the same as 330 pilots. The only difference is that Dragonair is a real airline which pays real wages!

757manipulator
- Yep, you are right! :ok:CASA will be CAA will be DCA will be DOT will be Transport Australia etc etc etc etc :eek: - they know better than any one else in the world and will do it thier own way! :\ Gee the Aussies have got something to be proud of!:hmm:

Rostov
- Will be waiting to see what happens with Jet* OZ/International and Australian Airlines. :ugh: The Big Dick (GD) and his off siders have been hinting a fair bit in their recent statements to the press lately!:ooh:

[Pete Conrad]

Australia2, the Impulse scum didnt have to pay for their A320 rating, nor did they have to sit the Qantas selection process. All new hires to Jet* have to first do QF selection, then pay for their ratings.

[757manipulator]

Even us blessed fellows with 320 ratings from different companies Pete?

(never had to pay for one..and Im only 33!

:D )

[Pete Conrad]

757manipulator...If your not the core, that being Impulse, the above doesn't apply to you does it. Cast your mind back to when Jet* formed.

[Gnadenburg]

Someone told me, may have been Pete Conrad ;) , that J* pilots have offered to crew the A330's for the same money as they are the A320's. That will show those QF pilots! And also quell the management rumoured proposal of using direct entry 330 crew.

Don't get sucked in again Jetstar crew. Rumoured direct entry 330 crew are only a management ploy to get you to undercut yourselves again.

[Pete Conrad]

Gnad, wasn't me, but wouldn't surprise me, the industry these days supports undercutting, so what better an opportunity to let the Jet* guys come to the foray again.

[Heavy Metal]

One of the main drivers behind the idea to pawn off the 4 A330-200's may be that they do not suit Mainline Ops. They have the longlegs over the 300's, but due to shortsightedness, the cabin floor strength is insufficient to carry the new sky beds. Would cost something like $100 million to upgrade. Thus the 200's are currently flying domestic patterns. Must be the flying test base for cycles on a 200. Longhaul, 2 class con fig., but with standard business seat (Jet Star intl?), would suit these aircraft. On another note, how are the 300's going to service Sydney-Beijing direct, this January?

Here is the press release:
http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn/us/press/1073

It doesn't have the legs for a full pax. load, unless they plan to make a tech stop every time they need to carry an alternate(or not fill all the seats).

[ur2]

Gnads,
Not true, the offer was to crew it for A320 money plus 20%, bringing base pay to $162k plus over time.
To be CCQ crew have to have >2000hrs Airbus.

[Zeke]

ur2,

Not true...you can CCQ with 150 hrs and 3 months airbus time.

"2000" hrs must be a "company" requirement.

[Gnadenburg]

ur2

You must be tempted?

I imagine there will be a counter-offer from QF management. Slick tactics anyway- rumoured Direct Entry with consideration to the number of disaffected, high time and current Aussie 330 drivers abroad.

Maybe the J* crew will CCQ just for fun.

The 2000 hours won't see any Impulse divers in the 330 seat. Suits the ex-AN drivers and current QF F/O's may get the commands- the man they label Lawnmower man will get his command back closing another chapter in his remarkable tenacity to outplay the system. Good on him! :p

[TANUA]

Regarding the QF selection process-

----there are a number of ex Ansett pilots including some senior Check Captains that failed this and were still employed and also one fellow who was recently recruited who was employed without even doing an interview---

Interesting operation all around but despite the vitriol there are many extremely capable and experienced pilots in this group who come from {both sides{ and many different walks of life. Am in Seoul in a hotel and this keyboard is a challenge so apologies for the typos.

Safe flying to all. :ok:

[Calligula]

The lawnmower man mush have some unbelievable dirt on somebody because he is now wearing F/O bars some 1000 numbers out of seniority.

Bog-etti and the CP have told the COM that 'a deal is there to be done on JQ international'

Depite all their retoric, they dont want clowns driving their aircraft - and that means the crews will come from mainline.

It will be on substantially reduced conditions though.


RIP AO as well

[ratpoison]

And you mean to say that mainline drivers are not clowns. ??????

[International Trader]

Don't forget that Jetstar Asia has pilots with 10,000 hours on Airbus and maybe a few thousand on 330/340s.
No problems about Australian work contracts and seniority there.
Just good operators with more experience than the other guys could ever hope to have.
Of course not a patch on the "mainline guys" ........he..he...he.

Many other Aussies ( like myself) floating about with the experience too.
May look in to it.

[oicur12]

Such pent up anger and thinly veiled agenda’s driving pointless arguments based on little more than fear and greed about things few of us can effectively control.

Relax people. Peace.

[Pete Conrad]

To the wellsprings of QF selection who claim that many a good pilot has fallen foul of the QF selection, you have totally missed the point. That being that if it's good enough for one set of pilots to do the QF selection, then it's good enough for ALL sets of pilots to do it.

[James4th]

"The 2000 hours won't see any Impulse divers in the 330 seat."

Think again my friend, (There is more than one!) and amongst the people in this company, that a lot of you deride, they are, almost exclusively, very good operators.

Just because some of them havnt passed the QF tests (Pluuuease!) dosnt mean they cant fly! Anybody (and I mean anybody!) can pass those tests as long as they can do about 3 weeks advance study.

However to be a real Qantas pilot you do have to take W@nker lessons for a considerable time. Unless you are one already:p

And if anyone censors that last remark, please also censor the "scum" comment of a previous post...obviously Mr Conrad has a"Heart of Darkness"



And I just noticed this one from the aptly named Calligula........... (This Roman ruler "The sources describe his incestuous relations with his sisters, laughable military campaigns in the north, the building of a pontoon bridge across the Bay at Baiae, and the plan to make his horse a consul.")

Which rather goes well with:-

"Depite all their retoric, they dont want clowns driving their aircraft - and that means the crews will come from mainline."

Send in the clowns Calligula, you got plenty over there........... I mean look at the Lawnmower Man... look at what they did to Jetstar Asia, not specking out the A330 properly, it just goes on and on...........

Cheers,

James

[Pete Conrad]

Read the post again w@nker 4th....noone said if you cant pass the QF selection you cant fly an aeroplane, lose the chip on your shoulder for not getting accepted into Qantas.

Answer this logic, why should Impulse pilots not have to do QF selection to fly for Jet* and other, as you put it, suitable pilots who want to fly for Jet* have to do the QF selection, with a vast majority of them getting knocked back?

[Capt Claret]

Pete,

to follow on from your question. Why should an Impulse incumbent have to do QF selection, simply because QF brought the company?

[slim]

Quite simple Claret, it's their train set and they set the rules. May be worth remembering that if QF hadn't bought the company the pilots would have been off to Centrelink.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Well said Slim. Unfortunately, I think alot of the poster here are too busy looking over the fence at other operations. Probably better of to tidy up your own backyard first!!

Aviation need not be this hard gentlemen. Being a "Professional" pilot does not require you to be a full time @s$hole.

Take a chill pill.

DM

[iceblock]

You're damn right it's their train set, so if they wanted them to do the selection process they should have gone and got them to do it. They didn't, too bad, it's now history.

[Jet Jockey]

Bottom line is Jetstar already has numerous Management and line Pilots with a lot more Airbus experience than most in Mainline. So its not a huge step to positon A330 in that operation.
There is already an Mou that would let Qantas pilots transition across to Jetstar. A few ex Airbus experience F/0s and S/0s will fit the bill nicely. 5 day transition A320 to 330.
Or alternately I am sure Geoff would love to see the union negotiate down to keep the operation which would serve him better.
The sooner Qantas Pilots pull their heads out of the sand and see what has happened and is happening around the world with the rationalization of the airline industry post Sept 11. My advice reduce your gearing and buckle down, honeymoons over!!!
Some realise sooner than overs. Aviations golden years finish 3 years ago. Its now a job with a lot less shine!

[James4th]

Well said JJ, and BTW Mr Conrad, I WAS in Qantas but was so bored with the "sheltered workshop" mentality, arrogance and dumb assed SOPs I got out before I became one of them. Just in time!

I find the flying OS where I am now much more refreshing, uncomplicated and enjoyable.

Cheers,

James

[flyingins]

I've got a GREAT idea! While we're all busy getting Impulse pilots to pass the "holy grail" of recruitment procedures to prove they're worthy of elevation to the vaunted status of "employed by the Qantas Group"('coz Qantas only hires THE best people!:} ), why don't we get REALLY retrospective and make all of the original Australian Airlines (TN) pilots do the entry-requirement testing too.

I mean, Qantas bought that company too (or was it merged? I'm sure that matters if it suits!).

Oops! Hang on! Most of those guys are either Captains, senior Captains or management pilots with QF now, aren't they?

Bugger! All of you who argue the "test Impulse pilots" line must hate glass houses!

Alternatively, the Qantas board could have said; "We'll use Impulse as the operating vehicle for our LCC, but we'll sack all of their fully-trained and type experienced pilots, retrain an equal number of our own pilots who've NEVER flown a 717, and then hire an equal number of guys off the street to fill the spaces left by our own guys who filled the spaces left by those "evil" Impulse pilots! Hurrah! Bonuses for everyone!"

Yes, it is their train-set. Which is why Impulse pilots don't need to sit the tests and why ex-TN pilots don't need to sit the tests. It saves time and money NOT to do so.

The red-tailed ostrich farm grows bigger. :yuk:

[Transition Layer]

Jet Jockey,

Its now a job with a lot less shine!

If that's the way you feel (and I'm sure it does feel like that working for Jokestar), then get out. And close the door after you thanks. The rest of us will try and maintain/improve conditions instead of giving up and admitting defeat.

TL

[schnauzer]

Flyingins, how do you justify those Impulse pilots who have previously FAILED the Qantas selection process, in many cases more than once? I believe that the point that guys like Pete are trying to make is exactly that, not just that they should all be tested now (a clearly ridiculous idea which you are pushing to save your own sorry @rse no doubt).

How is it that these people are not good enough on one pay scale, but you drop that down to less than half, and suddenly they are OK? Naaaahhhhh. Sorry, but that just don't wash.

And guys like you will tell me that the Qantas selection process MUST be flawed because YOU didn't pass, right? It is ALWAYS the defence of the narcissistic. Sorry, but Pete Conrad has a valid point, one which the travelling public are clearly ignorant of.

[DeBurcs]

Maybe J* can come up with new terminology for it:

"Cross crew qualification" is too hard to say when you turn up half-pissed at the sim...

Which pen-pushing desk-jockey coined that term??

[schnauzer]

Methinks you are half pissed Deburcs.

It is "Cross Cockpit Qualifications" not "cross crew" and I believe it was a little company called "Airbus".

[DeBurcs]

Well according to FlyingCircus, it's cross crew qualificationOne of you must be wrong.

Trust a frog to come up with something as poorly thought-out as that. They probably had something feminine-sounding in their own lingo then converted it using MS Translator and never bothered trying it out to see how it sounds.

Anyway it's aviation-related, who cares what a frenchman calls it?

Just for you, Schnauzer, I will re-phrase the question:

Which pen-pushing, frog-eating, gun-dropping, garlic-breath, surrender-monkeying, desk-jockey coined that term??

[lurker69]

Since we're having a go at the French-

Go to Google and type in 'French Military Victories' then click 'I'm feeling lucky'.....hehehe

[swh]

From http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_awst_story.jsp?id=news/02145top.xml

Although the A380 is equipped with larger, interactive displays and provides the flight crew with additional information, such as vertical situational awareness, its cockpit basically retains an A330/ A340-like flight deck to facilitate Cross Crew Qualification (CCQ). Managers of Airbus Training, the manufacturer's flight crew training arm, are targeting a 9-11-day transition to the A380. They note that most launch customers envision CCQ operations. For example, Emirates, Singapore, Lufthansa German Airlines and Virgin Atlantic Airways plan A340/A380 CCQ. Similarly, Air France, Qatar Airways and Qantas plan A330/A380 CCQ.

[flyingins]

Schnauzer,
I don't need to justify them, sunshine. They're not in Qantas.

Believe it or not, Jetstar, being a "Qantas Group" company, does require its pilots to adhere to the cyclic training and checking requirements set forth and approved by its parent.

Therefore, although JQ pilots operate differently to your esteemed organisation, they still do it to the same standard.

Many Impulse pilots did not successfully progress through the QF recruitment process, Schnauzer (and you too, Conrad). That is a fact. But the very fact that they now operate "group" aircraft to exactly the same standards dictated by your employer (the same standards as you, shock-horror!) would, to my mind, serve as just as valid an indicator of ability as the results of any HR driven, "behavioural" interview or computer-based psych and skills test.

That, of course, and the fact that VQ/JQ pilots actually FLY the aircraft (most flew at least 500 sectors last year, some quite a bit more than that) might make most Impulse drivers a little more skilled than even an above-average QF Second Officer. And probably just as good as your real pilots, too! What do you think, sweetheart?

P.S - Judging by how the EBA7 negotiations are going, my @rse is a lot less likely to need saving than yours.

[Capt Claret]

I wonder how many of the "Jet* pilots failed QF selection brigade" would happily walk from their job if their employer was brought out by BiggerBetterAirways, and the new employer decided that because they didn't formerly work for BiggerBetterAirways that they were second class citizens and therefore not to be employed?

It really saddens me how little empathy many pilots show towards professional colleagues. :{

edit for grammar

[Australia2]

Claret,

Thays Australian aviation through and through and the primary reason we are unable to improve our collective lot together.

Oz2

[Calligula]

But the jetstar losers do not operate to the same standards now do they boys.

Thats what we are hearing from the mainline auditors who have done surveillance, and also from the mainline capt seconded into JQ to fix the shambolic state of its training and operational standards.

All those dark little secrets - All those near misses.

I understand that a number of incidents have been kept out of the media by the personal intervention of James Packer (he is on the board for something after all).

Oldmeadow must be pissing himself laughing.

[Capt Claret]

Amazing how it's always other companies that have poor standards. :hmm:

I don't recall too much press about the QF737 that left an Australian capital city runway and needed engine repairs as well as a replacement wheel/brake assembly.

ps don't work for QF or Jet* or Virgin, so no axe to grind

[Miriam]

Refresh my memory, how did QF fair in its first LOSA audit ... was it last ?

"All those dark little secrets - All those near misses."

For at stabilised approach into cairns in a 747, is it normal to just slow to flap extension speed half way down the runway ? How does one hold at Canberra ? Had a level bust recently mr QF ? Plugged the wrong SID in the FMC recently mr QF ?

I think J* needs to start flying into more airports that have golf courses nearby on their overnights, or maybe stop using reverse thrust into Sydney to test the passenger evacuation system with a live demonstration.

Why leave the gate, when you can leave a door behind in the aerobridge, or better still push back a brand new aircraft with a tug in the engine.

QF spends about 5 times more time training their pilots, is there any linkage to suggest they are 5 times less error free than National Jet, Virgin, or Jetstar ?

Arr yes precious, do as you say, not do as you do. :8

ps don't work for QF or Jet*, National Jet or Virgin either, so no axe to grind

[LetsGoRated]

Calligula, you are kidding yourself!!


All those dark little secrets - All those near misses.

What dark little secrets? Come out with it!! Utter rubbish!! When it comes to "near misses" everybody is well aware of who leads the pack.

Thats what we are hearing from the mainline auditors who have done surveillance, and also from the mainline capt seconded into JQ to fix the shambolic state of its training and operational standards.

What do you think they’re going to say? "Say Geoff, those J Star boys & gals do it so much better than us, why cant we deploy them on more of our routes?" Glass houses Calligula, I think you need to clean up your own shambolic state of operational standards before shooting off at the mouth on issues of which you clearly have no authority.


I understand that a number of incidents have been kept out of the media by the personal intervention of James Packer (he is on the board for something after all).

My point exactly!! JP is doing a fantastic job of keeping all those mainline incidents out of the media!!:ok:

[ratpoison]

Miriam.

Nice post. That kept the boy's quiet for a while !!!

[The Edge's Guitar]

And its w@nk#ers like yourself Calligula that make mainline the butt of jokes in the real world in bars across the globe. My guess is your a snotty little S/O who has a "I demand respect, cant you see these 2 bars" attitude who has to resort to "well I heard the other day" comments to make yourself feel important in your pathetic little existance:yuk:
Its a real shame cause 90% of mainline blokes and sheila's are decent folks but its the 10% band that you fall into that we like to call the mainline clowns (roll the circus music):yuk: :yuk: :yuk:
Be careful son, one day I may be your captain and will make you carry my navbag everywhere I go :}

[Keg]

Miriam, you left out taking off without the IRS aligned! :* :rolleyes:

Keep us quiet rat? I don't know what the standard of J* is but I assume it's OK because CASA keep renewing the AOC and let them fly the A320 BUT there are a couple of areas worth touching on.

how did QF fair in its first LOSA audit ... was it last ?

No it wasn't but two issues follow on. Firstly, Uni Texas were VERY suprised that for the 'benign flying environment' that everyone keeps telling us we Aussies have, we had double the number of threats that other LOSA airlines had. Then again, lies, damn lies and statistics. Further, pursuing the LOSA argument in comparison of mainline with J* may not quite prove the point that you want it to! :E

Beyond that Miriam, get a grip. We can start pointing fingers all over the place. J*, DJ and most other operators in Australia have their fair share of incidents like lining up on highways, landing on closed runways, breaking altitudes, etc, etc. Just because a boorish idiot like calligula makes snide remarks does not mean that the rest of the forum should respond the same way. Only thing it does do is ensure that you look as much a goose as Calligula does. Fair dinkum, what a bunch of children we can be at times! So much for 'professional'! :sad:

Probably not the type of 'quiet' you expected ratpoison! :ouch:

[Miriam]

Keg (son of Geoff),

I don’t work in oz, where I work we have about 100 incidents a month with a fleet size of 50-150 young wide bodies, the incidents are collated and distributed to all crew on a regular basis, but I am not stupid enough like Calligula to mouth off at others just because they work harder for less money.

Australia, and to be honest with you it is a benign flying environment, its not a 3rd world country, English is the primary language, and terrain, known/unknown traffic and weather is nothing compared to other places around.

Aviation safety is a passion of mine, I take a lot of interest in what happens in Australia.

I am very aware of the LOSA findings at QF as are many of others out there, and self induced threats, or staying in an environment where the corporate culture is such that nothing is done once an error occurs significantly increase the threat to safety.

I would have personally thought that J* would have a lower incident rate than the long haul fleet at QF does, they do more sectors than long haul, normalizing the data should produce more errors from long haul. If it doesn’t something its a statistical abnormality as people working in a familiar environment regularly are less error prone than those the infrequently work and work in unfamiliar environments.

The SOPs at QF are very slack, they play importance on old historical procedures (like calling altimeters every 10000 ft in a glass cockpit) or doing procedures which are not in accordance with manufacturers procedures because that what they did on the XXX aircraft.

There are a lot of good people in QF, however it is a big organization with the cadets that were promoted over the years to take up management positions don’t really know there is another way of doing things.

One of the best safety improvements for QF was the demise of AN, not that they knew everything either, but sure gave the safety department an extraordinary improvement in skills and experience.

Anyway I hope the J* boys get their 330's and 350's, I don’t need to get a grip, I have been outside Australia, I know what reality is like, I work for a living.

[schnauzer]

You don't have a clue about reality, Miriam. You simply blow your own trumpet and tell us all that you know better than "those cadets".

What utter tripe. But you won't be told, will you? Just a few examples of where you are WRONG.

Our procedures are Boeing or Airbus almost without exception.

QF Shorthaul do plenty of sectors. Gee, almost as much as J*.:yuk:

You give the J* boys their 330's and 350's and what the hell, 380's, and my friend you have just come along a destroyed pilot pay and conditions in this country for the future.

All because you are bitter at QF for whatever reason. Spare me.

[Miriam]

schnauzer,

Please remind me where I mentioned QF domestic ? or where I said I know better ?

QF procedures may mimic the manufacture, the SOPs were very slack, that’s what was picked up on the LOSA audit.

Correct me if I am wrong, it was not Impulse or J* that prevented them from having full APIA membership. Now APIA panic that domestic flying and possibly international going to J*.

I am hearing the a lot of the guys in the lower ranks are pretty pi$$ed at the senior captains they that recommended this course of action, and where they are getting nice little kick along in their wages.

What I am hearing F/Os & S/O's are blaming the senior captains and APIA representatives for destroyed pilot pay and conditions within QF. What I am also hearing is if the reforms keep continuing, promotions for F/O's and S/O's are going to grind to a halt.

If this isn’t the case, the QF guys I sit down an have a beer with must be working for a different company.

I’m not bitter at QF, I have no axe to grind, just looking at the situation from an outsiders point of view.

[Going Boeing]

Miriam

QF procedures may mimic the manufacture, the SOPs were very slack, that’s what was picked up on the LOSA audit

One of the things that came out of the soul searching done after the LOSA report was that because QF's SOP's and policy manuals are very detailed it resulted in many more "threats" being observed in comparison with airlines whose procedures and manuals aren't as clearly defined. This was a very significant reason for the result