LUTON [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

LGS6753

8th Oct 2005, 10:33

Comparing S06 with S05, we can expect the following:

A third Britannia aircraft based (with a fourth at certain times during the week). This year it's been a 757 and a 767. What's in store next year?

More Wizz flights. The Poznan will be 5 weekly by then, and rumours appeared on the previous thread that Wizz intended introducing further destinations.

The BMi jungle jet operating 3 daily to BRU.

No Swefly flights.

The second Helvetic daily to Zurich.

But what of EZY and FR? For winter FR are operating one fewer daily flight than summer, but what of next year? And EZY have added a few destinations (like Bremen), but seem to be redeploying existing based aircraft rather than adding new ones.

Probably more Monarch flights, particularly to TFS and AGP, but any others? Again, according to rumours appearing on the old thread a couple of new destinations are in prospect.

Finally, what about these 'new' operators? Air Berlin? Ciao Fly??

Informed speculation and hard news welcome!

King Pong

8th Oct 2005, 12:33

Anyone know how successful the rail link bendy bus trial was that run for a week in the summer. It made a big difference to passenger comfort, as there were plenty of seats for everyone. Any chance of the airport buying a couple of these mega busses?

LTNman

8th Oct 2005, 15:03

A third Britannia aircraft based (with a fourth at certain times during the week). This year it's been a 757 and a 767. What's in store next year?

Thought this year it was 2 x 757's and a 767 for half of the week.

I wonder if slots at Gatwick are getting tight for IT flights with airlines like easyjet offering a year round service as opposed to Britannia who want to operate more services in the summer than the winter. Maybe this is the reason for the extra aircraft next summer.

Buster the Bear

8th Oct 2005, 18:33

Ciao Fly...........................I doubt it (He He!)

Air Berlin. According to an old timer from Luton now residing in Spain...........................Yes, as stated in the Spanish media!

No chance of any easyJet expansion (Not unless they re-jig thier current plans) until Luton has easyOrange A319's based in 2007.

Powerjet1

9th Oct 2005, 06:16

Thomsonfly will be basing a 737 at LTN for S06?. Anyone confirm.

Three new destinations for Wizz ex LTN in the pipeline for the first 6 months of 2006.

Would think that a daily rotation to another destination will follow for the BMI jungle jet, as it sits on the ground for 5 hrs in between the first & second BRU ops.

Seccond daily Helvetic to ZRH now in operation.

FR to base two more 738s for S06. Ezy, as said before, will become clearer over the next few weeks but definately new routes to follow.

Two new euro airlines plus one UK for next year S06. No based aircraft by any.

Two new routes by MON. 40% expansion this coming winter over W05.

So 2006 is looking to be a great year

LTNman

9th Oct 2005, 07:16

Thomsonfly will be basing a 737 at LTN for S06?. Anyone confirm.

I have lost the plot here, are Thomsonfly operating scheduled services from Luton next year or selling seats from their charter programme. If it were a proper scheduled service then a 737 would be the aircraft of choice. http://book.thomsonfly.com/cgi-bin/timetable.pl?language=en.

So what are we looking at then overall, is it 2 x 757, a 767 and a 737 for next summer?

Three new destinations for Wizz ex LTN in the pipeline for the first 6 months of 2006.

The airport must love the Wizz operation. Lots of flights with no aircraft night stopping so no new stands required.

Yak97

9th Oct 2005, 11:28

No airport like base operators.....

1. They want to park their smelly aircraft all over the nice new concrete, blocking aprons & terminal stands.
2. They want office space, staff car parking & complain if they have to park too far away.
3. They want discounts on fees.
4. They want to maintain aircraft with those maintenance people, well there the worst, wanting to go and run their engines and annoy all the airport neighbours......

The airport ideal, as stated, is an airline based somewherelse, who only wants to land, park for 30-40 minutes and then departs.

Buster the Bear

9th Oct 2005, 20:06

easyJet may well have new routes, but no additional based aircraft until 2007? Mind you, with the new management in place, they might see thier dominance at Luton begin to crumble and fight back!

Wizz! must be Bulgaria and Romania?

Monarch, no surprise.

Thomsonfly must be an 800 to differentiate thier rather cloudy brand image?

BMI Regional to Munich?

Another UK airline apart from FlyBe (Jersey) or BMI (Brussels)........No idea! Jet2 venturing south?

(Edited bit) GB Airways were rumoured a while back?

RYR, no great secret.

2 EU airlines.......from Mr Luton Relic's comments to me, that one would be Air Berlin, but I am not convinced.

I bet at least one is EC- reg?

Bobby Guzzler

9th Oct 2005, 20:13

Hot off the press, easy 737-800's are coming - Boeing have been back in the building! ;)

Guess they're going to have to build a multi-story ramp to put all the aircraft on though!

Buster the Bear

9th Oct 2005, 20:23

easy to buy 800's..........and trade in a few 319's (I added that bit!). Might as well 'shrink wrap' easyLand in Ryanair blue and paint a harp on the front!

Bobby Guzzler

9th Oct 2005, 20:36

If the expert FR chaps keep doing Flap 10 landings, who knows, maybe we can just buy the 800's from them! :8

andyafc

9th Oct 2005, 22:44

I would of thought, BMI Regional maybe adding Munich and hopefully EZY adding Hamburg, with the world cup coming up and all, also heard bout easyjet maybe venturing to Malta maybe a future destination from LTN

ebenezer

10th Oct 2005, 02:34

So does Luton ground radar actually work? While in fog today tower was asking whether company aircraft had past behind. Seem to get a lot of this type of talk at LTN. Surly with ground radar the tower should see what is going on or are there dead spots around the airport?

Komg Pong - this is a relatively new Luton air traffic control procedure invoked when the visibility falls below 400 metres. Previously, ATC had to separate each aircraft on the taxiway system below this visibility but it is now possible to permit the pilots to self-separate on the same taxiway provided that the the following aircraft can see the one in front.

This has enabled the airport's movement rates in fog to be safely increased (although obviously, not to the same amount as when it's clear).

The procedure has absolutely nothing to do with the surface movement radar being unable to 'see' the taxiways.

:ok:

LGS6753

10th Oct 2005, 14:54

LTNman -

I'll bow to your superior knowledge as to Britannia's 757/767 mix this year. If they've got 2 757s and half a 767, that's an increase on last year, and not what the brochures suggested.

As far as Thomsonfly 2006 being scheduled services or charters, I now believe this distinction is effectively redundant. They will be using TOM flight numbers and the flights are bookable without accommodation. But the timings are not the same every day, and there seems no distinction between a 757-operated 'charter' and a 737-operated 'schedule'. I've a feeling the TOM flights from COV BOH and DSA can be used as part of a package.

Bobby Guzzler -

Sorry, no chance of EZY -800s. EZY have invested in Airbus, and their huge orders/options can be converted to A320 or A321 if required. The 737-300s will only stay as long as the leases, and I would wager the -700s will go, especially if EZY can place them in a new home.

Buster -

Is the 'new' UK airline NOT BMi? Are you guessing or do you 'know'? Jet2 I feel is unlikely. They have just announced a further strengthening of their Northern roots with operations at NCL and BLK. Can't see the population of Luton wearing flat 'ats and eating black pudding.

Buster the Bear

10th Oct 2005, 21:21

Well they fly to both Gatwick and Bournemouth.

A Cork to Luton route would work on a daily basis?

Buster the Bear

11th Oct 2005, 19:00

I see that Stansted only reported a 5% increase in passengers for September, yet another month of single digit growth. The days of 20-30% growth are over until the second runway opens, if it is ever approved?

Plenty of scope now for Luton to soak up the excess growth north of the Thames! Stansted has plenty of runway capacity, but not stand availability during peak hours.

King Pong

11th Oct 2005, 20:02

I see that Stansted only reported a 5% increase in passengers for September, yet another month of single digit growth. The days of 20-30% growth are over until the second runway opens, if it is ever approved?

Seeing that Stansted handles over twice as many passengers as Luton a 5% growth there would be equivalent to around 12% here in physical passengers, which is the expected growth rate for Luton for September.

Plenty of scope now for Luton to soak up the excess growth north of the Thames! Stansted has plenty of runway capacity, but not stand availability during peak hours.

Luton also has plenty of pinch points that still need sorting out which will restrict growth in the short to medium term. Something radical is needed to get cars out of the central area not only for parking but also for picking up and dropping off passengers. One such radical idea would be to build a new terminal frontage in the mid term car park. Plenty of room here for a proper drop off area and short term parking. From here a rapid transit system would whisk passengers and meeters and greeters to the terminal proper in around 30 seconds.

LTNman

13th Oct 2005, 19:29

Provisional stats for September show that 862,689 passengers used Luton up 122,000 or 16.7%. Year on year figures are 8,868,049 up 1,650,000 or 22.9%.

9,000,000 is starting to look like it might occur around November, Not bad seeing that 8,000,000 was passed only in April of this year.

Stall-Warner

13th Oct 2005, 19:59

looks like LTN management have finally got things moving the right way.

LTNman

14th Oct 2005, 05:36

I have been studying the outline planning application for the old Vauxhall site at http://www2.luton.gov.uk/kimptonroad/. The proposal includes a 24m high mega multi story car park for the airport, which will contain 5000 spaces. The location for this is at the back end of the development in the northeastern corner. Location maps can be found in the development framework plan. Also worth looking at the Development concept aerial prospective link in the mauve section

bacardi walla

14th Oct 2005, 06:15

BMI Regional doing MUC makes sense especially in between the BRU they plan to do. Debonair used to fly MGL-LTN-MUC-LTN-MGL with good timings. LTN-BRU-LTN-MUC-LTN-BRU-LTN will work commercially but not from a crewing angle :confused:

CAP670

15th Oct 2005, 11:19

...worth looking at the Development concept aerial prospective link

Yet another half ~ no, it's completely baked ~ plan from Luton Borough Council.

A multi-story car park designed to serve LTN having a capacity of 5000 cars sited on a combined business park/residential development with a single access/exit onto Kimpton Road just won't work.

You only have to look at similar business park/residential development sites to see the queues of traffic weekdays trying to get in between 8.15am and 9am, and trying to get out again between 4.30pm and 6pm, to realise that LTN's airline passengers using the facility during 'rush hours' are not going to find this concept efficient or user-friendly.

What's required is a second access/exit point that primarily serves the car park combined with bus lanes to enable public services and airport-related buses to avoid being caught up in the traffic.

The next step will no doubt be to ban all private vehicles (public and airport-related staff but excluding vehicles owned by disabled drivers) from the airport site and to require everyone to catch a shuttle bus to/from the central terminal area or other worksite on the Airport.

Judging by the Kimpton Road proposal, if you live locally it'd be quicker to walk and if not, to catch the train to Luton Airport Parkway station and take your bike.

Which is probably the Council's cunning master plan...

:hmm:

LTNman

15th Oct 2005, 12:35

Yet another half ~ no, it's completely baked ~ plan from Luton Borough Council.

Actually the scheme is not from the council but from Southside & City Developments Ltd who own the land and the airport who are desperate for car park spaces. Got to admit when I saw the “high density” housing proposal I thought of Marsh Farm and the famous Luton riots a few years back. With 5000 cars to choose from the residence will have a nice choice of cars to steal.

Lets also no forget Airparks who use land at Slip End on the wrong side of the M1 for parking. Their large car park always seems full.

andyafc

15th Oct 2005, 18:39

The MUC route i think would defintaely work considering the World Cup coming up and im sure there will be an extra need for flights to MUC from May time

King Pong

18th Oct 2005, 08:49

I hear that the new departure lounge didn’t cope too well yesterday after a number of flights didn’t make it in due to fog. The chickens came home to roost with the airports policy of keeping seating to a minimum with passengers just wanting somewhere to sit and finding there was nothing to sit on apart for a cold floor. On all accounts the lounge resembled a refugee camp.

kala87

18th Oct 2005, 11:07

I can believe it. We flew out of Luton on a Monarch 757 on a Monday morning in early September, returning Monday lunch time 2 weeks later.

We were amazed that no seating was provided at the departure gates. What kind of twit designed the place? What happens if a flight is delayed when the pax have already gone through to the gate? Do they assume all pax are youngsters in their 20's and 30's? What about families with kids? Or maybe the "architects" haven't noticed the average age of the population is getting steadily older every year! Typical British bad design.

Another thing: the space provided at the gates was so limited that the queue for our flight was mixed up with the queue at the adjacent gate. You can just imagine the confusion as pax were continually asking each other if they were in the queue for the
right flight!

I hope the awfulness of the baggage reclaim area is just a temporary problem?

The airport also needs to sort out the service to passengers in wheelchairs. Our outbound flight missed its departure slot because no transport could be found to put passengers in wheelchairs on board the aircraft. On arrival back at Luton, disabled pax waited on board the aircraft 30 minutes after the rest of the pax had left, again due to non-availability of equipment. Arriving in the baggage reclaim area, no wheelchairs were available, and no-one we asked was able to locate one.

On the positive side (yes, their was one) the MON check-in girls were very efficient and pleasant.

Please, please, can LTN get things right for a change.

Powerjet1

22nd Oct 2005, 16:15

The airport is to unveil its Draft Masterplan on monday. With all the rumours that have been flying around, it will be interesting to see if the new spanish operators come up with something really new and innovative for the future expansion & prosperity of the airport.

Buster the Bear

22nd Oct 2005, 18:00

My guess is a new runway, note not a second runway, south of the existing?

CAP670

23rd Oct 2005, 08:08

...it will be interesting to see if the new spanish operators come up with something really new and innovative for the future.

You won't be disappointed...

One of the main consultancy companies involved in this project is the firm that designed Hong Kong's Chep Lak Kok Airport.

The 'interim' plan if approved, will also be very interesting ~ and exceedingly challenging from an air traffic control and airspace perspective (not to mention local road infrastructure) given the expected timeframe and the slow speed at which improvement in such areas seems to be implemented.

What will really concentrate some highly-placed minds is the level of investment proposed for the entire project ~ interim and final ~ which could (subject to the usual permissions from the Town Hall) see some concrete being poured as early as the end of next year.

Clearly, ACDL isn't going to sink this amount of cash into the Luton development project and still accept playing 'second fiddle' to the likes of BAA at Stansted or having Luton continue to be treated as a peripheral 'regional' status airport.

A few sacred cows could be lined up for slaughter over the next five years...

:E

Buster the Bear

23rd Oct 2005, 22:06

I guess the sigh's of disbelief will reverberate around the PPRuNe network when ACDL's plans are unveiled! So much to do within 7 years, let alone 25!

Buster the Bear

24th Oct 2005, 21:41

Word on the kerb is that the marshalling will be supplemented by the handling agents. So expect to see lots of 'Follow Me' wagons directing the Biz Jet arrivals all over the place quite soon!

I assume that they (the agents) will have all the required expertise, knowledge and training that the Rover's currently enjoy and meet all the CAA criteria?

How about Luton Borough Council re-deploying some of the Lollypop ladies to lend a hand!

Powerjet1

25th Oct 2005, 06:41

BBC local News reporting that LTN's expansion plans are to be released later this morning. Mentioned 5 x the present number of flights & more than a tripling of passengers by 2030.

ebenezer

25th Oct 2005, 10:32

See:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4373848.stm

:ok:

Powerjet1

25th Oct 2005, 10:43

Airport management believe 30m pax could be reached 10 years earlier, by 2020. If new runways in the south are delayed slightly, they are predicting 23.5m pax by 2015. Tracked monorail system planned for new term plus replacement 3000m runway set 950mtrs to south of existing. Lots of new stands etc. Phew!!!

Wait for the nimbys to come out fighting.

OLNEY 1 BRAVO

25th Oct 2005, 11:04

Interesting news that Buster. It was raised as an issue a couple of years ago but nothing came of it, allegedly as some (one) handling agent or FBO wasn't prepared to take on the liability it they screwed up whilst parking an aircraft.

Given the recent track record of one FBO when tugging aircraft, if I were one of their customers, I would be very concerned about this new proposal.

Powerjet1

25th Oct 2005, 12:10

Short-term proposals are for planning permission to be applied for in early 2006 to cover..

New stands on short-term car park.
Extension for a full length parallel taxiway.
Multi-story carpark near to terminal.
Extension to existing terminal.

Work on above hopefully completed by Oct 2007.

Revision of airport boundries( S & E) to cover planned new expansion.

Late 2006 Planning permission applied for 3000m full length runway south of exisiting + 65000sq ft south terminal + 35 new stands to be in operation by late 2011.

New control tower.

13.8m pax predicted in 2011, 23.5m by 2015 with provision of new runway & terminal. 5% oof ATMs expected to be Longhaul on 767/777 aircraft.

2015 Further expansion of terminal and ancillary facilities to cope with 30m pax by 2020(airport estimate) .

Seems bold and ambitious but will be fought tooth & nail all the way through the planning stages

bacardi walla

25th Oct 2005, 12:18

OLNEY 1 BRAVO rest assured, handling agents WILL be doing marshalling in place of the rovers !

powerjet1

New control tower

what's wrong with the existing "new tower" ??

Powerjet1

25th Oct 2005, 12:55

Bacardi Walla

Good question. The brief just states that a new control tower would be built close to the new south terminal, viewing two new parallel taxiways that would be built for the replacement runway. New fire station too.

Exisiting runway would remain for use in emergencies, maintenance etc. The MD said on BBC local news when questioned about this said 'this is not included in the current 2030 project but beyond that who know'? .' The avaition world won't stop at 2030'.

G-CPTN

25th Oct 2005, 13:04

New runway, or SECOND runway?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4373848.stm

bacardi walla

25th Oct 2005, 13:07

Exisiting runway would remain for use in emergencies, maintenance etc

Why not just overcome the Hertfordshire boundary problem and extend the current runway - surely ! Strikes me yet again that LTN has no real plan and will carry on being a building site with it's own runway, like it has been since the early 80's - IMHO :bored:

Powerjet1

25th Oct 2005, 13:25

BW

Numerous reasons given but the main ones seem to be

1. Difficult & time consuming to construct due to topograpghy of land to east of runway.

2. Massive amounts of landfill required. Estimated at 1.14million lorry trips through country roads causing severe enviromental problems.

3. Lengthy runway closures of r/w so day to day ops badly affected.

4. Major stand & terminal construction on old landfill site east of delta taxiway.

Doors to Automatic

25th Oct 2005, 13:34

As I understand it, it is a new replacement runway aligned with that of Stansted (i.e. 05/23 or thereabouts) and 10,000 feet long.

The existing 08/26 will be used as an emergency runway - but who is to say whether or not it would be brought back into use if the airport grows sufficiently!

ebenezer

25th Oct 2005, 13:39

Doors to Automatic ~ no, the proposed new runway at Luton (08R/26L) is +/- 3000 metres long and parallel to but offset slightly from, the existing runway 08/26.

The runways are not far enough apart to be operated 'independantly' and the noise-abatement turn from the current Runway 26 would preclude simultaneous take-offs.

;)

ebenezer

25th Oct 2005, 13:46

Strikes me yet again that LTN has no real plan and will carry on being a building site with it's own runway...

BW - I'm afraid that you're firing on one cylinder here.

If you take the time to READ the Project 2030 proposal you'll (hopefully...) see that this is a plan, and whilst ambitious, it's feasible and has been costed by Luton's new spanish operators.

Most airports these days tend to be 'building sites' - you only have to look at LHR or LGW to realise this.

Luton's Project 2030 plan hasn't be dreamed up in the local town hall but is the result of extensive work by international consultants who have experience of successful airport development work in the US, Hong Kong, the Middle East, and Continental Europe.

Suggest you read and inwardly digest the facts before making such crass ill-informed comments.

:mad:

bacardi walla

25th Oct 2005, 13:50

Suggest you read and inwardly digest the facts before making such crass ill-informed comments.

If you don't mind, I'll say what I want to say. Yes, I agree, most airports these days are like building sites. The argument with Hertfordshire has been rolling on as long as the countryside in question. How will this new runway not infringe on Hertfordshire ?

Sharjah Night Shift

25th Oct 2005, 13:54

Hopefuly it will be built to a better standard of workmanship than the terminal extension. Or will they surface it with broken tiles?

bacardi walla

25th Oct 2005, 14:05

Sharjah Night Shift or bits of the "old" tower !

King Pong

25th Oct 2005, 14:14

Why not just overcome the Hertfordshire boundary problem and extend the current runway

Most of the approach lights to runway 26 are located in Hertfordshire. By extending the runway a valley would need to be in-filled and the runway would still be partly in Hertfordshire.

Phase 2 expantion can only go south which means Terminal, runway and aprons inside Hertfordshire. This will be corrected when the County and town borders are updated and moved.

From me dated Oct 10th

Something radical is needed to get cars out of the central area not only for parking but also for picking up and dropping off passengers. One such radical idea would be to build a new terminal frontage in the mid term car park. Plenty of room here for a proper drop off area and short term parking. From here a rapid transit system would whisk passengers and meeters and greeters to the terminal proper in around 30 seconds

From the airports website

4) The new Terminal will be accessed via a new Reception Centre built on the site of the Airport's existing mid-term car park.

Ahh great minds think alike

LTNman

25th Oct 2005, 14:30

So how far south will the new runway go? Will it be south or north of the new terminal? If they need to build a new control tower then a big land grab must be planned. Can't find any maps on the net so far

Powerjet1

25th Oct 2005, 14:45

The new runway would be 950m south of the existing. The new terminal would be to the north of the new r/w, roughly in the middle of the old & new.

G-CPTN

25th Oct 2005, 14:52

>The new terminal would be to the north of the new r/w, roughly in the middle of the old & new.

With UNDERGROUND access?

LTNman

25th Oct 2005, 14:56

Ok boys, haven't read it yet but go to http://www.london-luton.co.uk/en/content.asp?area=6&id=969 and download Core Strategy then have a look at the map on page 65

Buster the Bear

25th Oct 2005, 15:00

"Outrageous proposition"

News that Luton airport is planning to extend its current facilities and build a replacement terminal has provoked anger from the Green Party.

"This is an outrageous proposition. At a time when we most need to curb our carbon emissions, the airline industry - the fastest growing contributor to climate change - seem determined to drive us to a point where the earth is no longer habitable," commented Marc Scheimann, local Green Party member and candidate for Luton South in the recent General Election.

"If passenger numbers do triple by 2030, as the reasoning behind this decision suggests, the effects on this area will be disastrous. Such expansion is inevitable if the current cheap flights bonanza continues.

"But these prices do not reflect the real cost of flying - the irreversible effect on our climate. Indeed, airline fuel - unlike car fuel - is not taxed. This amounts to massive public subsidisation of the aviation industry - to the tune of some £9.2 billion in the UK alone. This is in direct violation of the 'polluter pays' principle, something the Government claims to support.

LGS6753

25th Oct 2005, 16:50

I've just spent about 75 minutes skimming the 'Core Strategy' document, available on the airport website.

It's certainly an exciting proposition, and apparently a great deal of work has been done by LLAOL and numerous consultants. This is far from a detailed planning document, but it IS the consultation document.

That means that there is now a 12 week window to comment on the proposals (ends on 27th January 06). I would urge every ppruner to e-mail or write to LLAOL supporting the proposal in principle. Page 14 of the Core Strategy document asks for responses to a number of specific questions.
The freepost address and e-mail address are as follows:

Post: Freepost RLXG-RKZH-JGGX,
Project 2030 Core Strategy
London Luton Airport Operations Ltd
Navigation House
Airport Way
Luton LU2 9NY

E-mail: [email protected]

A healthy pro-airport response would do much to support the actual planning application when it is eventually made. It will counter the NIMBY brigade, who will be coming to an airport near you soon.
Developments like this are all too rare in UK aviation, and it is in the whole industry's interests that they are whole-heartedly supported. I hope you'll do your bit:ok: :ok:

LTNman

25th Oct 2005, 17:32

Just read through the airport document. There are 4 runway options with the airport pushing for a new runway 950m south of the existing one. Road passengers will disembark at a reception centre in what is now the mid term car park and then either head for the existing terminal or the new terminal via a tunnel under the runway using a tracked transit system. The transit system will also link up with the airport's railway station.

LTNman

25th Oct 2005, 18:37

Just emailed the following to LADACAN:

Tonight I watched a story on TV about LADACAN spokesman Roger Wood. Roger informs us that 18 years ago he bought a house at the end of Luton's runway at Breachwood Green but doesn't like aircraft noise. Surely shouldn't Roger have chosen a different location to live seeing that the airport was there first?
------------
I wonder if I will get a reply?:mad:

LADACAN press release at http://www.ladacan.org/Press%20Release%2018.pdf

vervlogen

25th Oct 2005, 19:39

Just as amatter of interest, did anyone see the picture in the weekend papers of the new Terminal 3 at Bejing, to be ready for the Olympics on 2008? Now that is an airport Terminal! Over one hundred gates and parking for over 200 aircraft, and that's just one terminal.

Buster the Bear

25th Oct 2005, 19:57

And a rather high speed train/rapid transport (I don't think is uses tracks) that my friend has been designing.

Ref 2030, loads of media attention locally especially after Whitbread announced 250 job losses in the town, but no one asked the questions, 'Where is the money coming from', nor the implications relating to the concession?

King Pong

26th Oct 2005, 05:29

I don’t think the airport has ever completed any building work on time. Even small projects seem to end up being finished late. 2007 for completion of phase 1 and 2012 for phase 2 will never happen. Stansted who are a good year ahead of Luton in planning for a second runway have already seen the opening date put back to 2015.

Planning issues and objectors will cause no doubt most of the delays. The planned new route into the airport is a good example of how a project can hit one delay after another. This route was meant to have been finished by now yet still does not have a start date. As for Thameslink 2000…..
:mad: :mad: :mad:

The anti-Luton brigade have picked up on the fact that despite the airport claiming that the old runway will be used mainly as a back up runway as at Gatwick it will in fact be used at the same time as the new runway. I think the protestors have a point as I can’t see the airport letting 2160m of concrete go to waste.

ORAC

26th Oct 2005, 05:57

The Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,172-1843483,00.html)

Powerjet1

26th Oct 2005, 15:09

Helvetic have announced they are reducing their fleet to just 4 aircraft from early Jan. Madrid, Prague & Rome are all being withdrawn by 6 Jan.

LTN, which has recently seen an increase to 12 weekly flights to/from Zurich will remain the same for the winter period, reducing to 11 weekly from Mar 06, the saturday evening flight being withdrawn.

bacardi walla

26th Oct 2005, 15:26

lots of careful planning went into that then !!

white paper, blue paper, toilet paper :confused:

ebenezer

26th Oct 2005, 15:59

...it will in fact be used at the same time as the new runway.

This isn't possible in under instrument conditions because the runways are too close to be operated 'independantly'.

Take-offs from the existing runway 26 (R) will still have to turn left to avoid Luton and would immediately conflict with take-offs or overshoots from the new runway (26L).

As for the idiot that bought a house at Breachwood Green, well presumably he was brain-dead when he bought it!!

:mad:

Buster the Bear

26th Oct 2005, 20:01

How about, for small aircraft the missed approach for 26R be re designed to fly straight ahead for a while. Lower noise footprint than a B737.

Or as one touches down on 26L an immediate departure can be authorised on 26R? I am sure the options are there to be used, mind you, you might have to be a mathmatician to work it all out?

Is that a storm brewing, or a sharp intake of breath by the CAA?

£1.5 Billion is an awful lot of money for Luton, but then again, you have to speculate to accumulate!

Good news re Helvetic.

vintage ATCO

26th Oct 2005, 21:37

I don’t think the airport has ever completed any building work on time.

Do you mind? The current control tower was on time and on budget. :p :ok:

Powerjet1

27th Oct 2005, 06:43

£1.5 Billion is an awful lot of money for Luton, but then again, you have to speculate to accumulate!

With this substantial sum emarked for expansion at LTN, (25% of which to be spent to complete Phase 1 by late 2007) one can only assume our spanish friends have plans for BFS & CWL also, though on a smaller scale. Time will tell.

LTNman

27th Oct 2005, 07:20

With this substantial sum emarked for expansion at LTN, (25% of which to be spent to complete Phase 1 by late 2007

I also read this, 25% of the total spend on phase 1 seems a lot of money seeing that it will only buy an extension to the existing terminal for a further 2m passengers, a pier, a new drop off area, 6 stands, a multi story car park and 2 strips of concrete for a full length parallel taxiway. Compare this to what is required in phase 2 including buying 300 hectors of land, a new runway, 3 parallel taxiways, a terminal, satellite piers, reception centre, apron, control tower, fire station, access tunnels under the runway and some sort of monorail which will link up with an expanded railway station.

Powerjet1

28th Oct 2005, 07:39

London Luton Airport Community newsletter enclosed in the free local newspaper last night giving brief summary details of the proposed expansion, map of the development etc. Comments page for completion & return by 27 Jan 06. Being delivered to some 300,000 homes in the area. Several roadshow/exibititions taking place on Nov/Dec at various towns.

From various radio/tv programmes in the last 48 hours, many people seem alarmed & surprised by the scale of the deveopment, and I think the airport operator is going to find it tough in the months ahead getting it through.

CAP670

28th Oct 2005, 08:18

With this substantial sum emarked for expansion at LTN, (25% of which to be spent to complete Phase 1 by late 2007

Phase 1 is a far more interesting - and demanding - aspect than the total Project 2030 programme because it is designed to "max out" the existing facilities pending the new runway and other infrastructure progressively coming on line from 2012 (all of which will undoubtedly, go to a full-scale Public Inquiry).

The interim Phase 1 "max out" programme requires only planning permission, and LLAO has several cards up its sleeve that will assuage the local NIMBY populus and the local NOPE (environmentalist) fraternity.

However, to have - by the Winter of 2007 - a runway and associated ground facilities that can accommodate and sustain a full-blown 32 movements per hour (which is currently the declared hourly throughput but is presently difficult to achieve on a constant basis) and the resultant passenger activity (12m/year?) is an admirable aim that will definitely expose several 'weak links in the chain' few of which will have been resolved in 24 months, viz:

1. Local roads - grossly inadequate during 'rush hour' even today
2. Airport roads - ditto
3. M1 motorway between Junctions 10/10A and the M25 (southbound) and Junction 13 (northbound) - ditto
4. Road links eastwards to A1M - ditto
5. Adjacent London terminal airspace - ditto
6. Interaction with other London airports'/airfields' routes (e.g. London City, Northolt and even now...Southend) - a major impediment
7. Ability to depart aircraft from the existing Runway 26 at less than two minute intervals (because of the noise abatement turn away from Luton) - impossible.
8. Airport railway station (an excellent facility) that can't accommodate HST trains (platforms too short) - an 'own goal'
9. Airport railway station passenger hall - wong side of the line for ease of access to/from the Airport (see # 1 above).

Nevertheless, with ACDL's obvious cash and heavy-weight intent, some very searching questions will no doubt be asked in 24 months time about those issues (above) that remain and which are not directly within the airport company's control or its ability to resolve!

Should be interesting...

:hmm:

Powerjet1

28th Oct 2005, 09:06

CAP670

Agree with you 100% on the 'weak links' which will probably get even worse in the short term, before they get better.

Thameslink(or rather the new operator - Nat Express are currently the favourite) are hopefull of extending the Parkway platforms to take 12 car trains but work will not start until late 2007/early 2008. They are also working with LLAOL regarding the feasibility of building a major coach interchange at Jct 10. Quite where this will leave LTFC, who are still intent on building a new stadium at Jct 10, who knows?

From the consultation document , the airport are predicting 10.2m pax for 2006, 11.1m for 2007. Annual increases thereafter, of between 0.6m & 0.9m pax, up to 2012, when the proposed replacement runway would come into play. At that point, predicted pax nos increase from between 1.5m & 3.0m annually up to 2020.

Buster the Bear

28th Oct 2005, 09:40

MOL on the case already!

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=05&month=oct&story=gen-en-281005

VIKING9

28th Oct 2005, 10:05

to quote MOL
Ryanair has always supported a low cost second runway at Stansted - what is a low cost runway :confused:

CAP670

28th Oct 2005, 11:53

Ryanair supports the development of low cost airport facilities in the south east, and will work closely with Luton International Airport to help it achieve these exciting plans

Nice to see MoL is on side - pity his PR Department (is that one or just two people...??) chose to use the former name for Luton, last used nearly 10 years ago by the previous airport company...

:=

Powerjet1

28th Oct 2005, 13:09

Reaction by easy was not quite so positive... noticed this snippet in the local paper given by spokeswoman Samantha Day.

"We generally have a good relaionship with Luton Airport and are in favour of the expansion plans.

"There are question marks in the area of cost. We would not be in favour of expansion at any cost. It needs to be consistent with low cost airlines needs.

"We wouldn't want to be priced out of the market as a result of expansion."

Expect to see more "war of words" between easy & ryan over LTN on several issues, during the coming weeks & months. Things going to get "mighty hot."

nickmanl

28th Oct 2005, 14:27

There is more than enough room at Junction 10 for a football ground, coach interchange and hotels etc, so I don't see why this represents a challenge.

The owner of the land is a Sheila Watson Challis, whose husband is Mike Watson Challis who is currently life president at Luton Town Football Club.

This land is earmarked for the ground, make no mistake about that.

ebenezer

28th Oct 2005, 15:25

The owner of the land is Sheila Watson Challis, whose husband is Mike Watson Challis ...

So will Mr & Mrs Challis be putting up the necessary funds to improve the roads so that these can accommodate their football customers as well as the airport's passengers and the hapless local residents who also might care to use the adjacent roads in this area...??

Somehow, I doubt it!

:mad:

LGS6753

28th Oct 2005, 17:11

Buster wrote -

'Good news re Helvetic'

Sorry, I don't agree. Helvetic is reducing fleet from 6 to 4 aircraft, and reducing its number of destinations. That's not good news. It will make profits harder to achieve, and will reduce their market visibility. (But not the visibility of their aircraft :cool: ). I hope they aren't another Volare.

Future 737 -

You are quite right about catchment areas - Luton's catchment area (defined by population living within 1 or 2 hours' driving time) is the biggest in the UK after LHR. Luton is also very well located from a surface access point of view.

Unfortunately, I can't see it overtaking STN or LGW in terms of pax throughput. STN currently processing 20m+, that's more than LTN's planning by 2014, and is before infrastructure or efficiency improvements. Also both STN and LGW are BAA airports, who share marketing costs, and can cross-refer airlines wishing to fly into more than one London airport (and there's a lot of those).

But more news:

Aer Arann has announced a twice daily LTN-IOM service from 24 Nov using '50 seat' ATR 42s (is that right?). Although welcome, I suggest this will finish off the BACX 146 operation, so there will be 2 movements but the same (or similar) capacity on the route.

Powerjet1

28th Oct 2005, 17:38

Funny that. I emailed AA just over a week ago and their email reply flatly refuted any IOM-LTN operation, although they said it might be someting they would look at next summer.

As LGS has stated, the BACX is likely to be killed off by this move. Obviously LTN management have tried to prempt any move of BACX withdrawing the route which has been on the cards for some time now,with AA now a willing source.

Buster the Bear

28th Oct 2005, 18:15

Helvetic, good news in the sense that they are retaining Luton as a destination as they rationalise thier operations.

BA to IOM is still bookable for next year, not too sure that there is the demand for around 200 seats each way per day? Aer Arann 's timings are certainly not aimed at the business traveller.

These extra movements should give the folk in the tower something to do this coming quiet winter (Ha Ha Ha Ha!)

spanishflea

28th Oct 2005, 18:39

If BACX stop Luton, the 146 is just going to sit on the ground on the IOM for several hours a day. Providing they can cover the operating costs of the service I see no reason why they will stop anytime soon, as there really isnt any other sensible place for that 146 to fly to on a weekday lunchtime.

DeepC

28th Oct 2005, 19:27

So will Mr & Mrs Challis be putting up the necessary funds to improve the roads so that these can accommodate their football customers as well as the airport's passengers and the hapless local residents who also might care to use the adjacent roads in this area...?? Somehow, I doubt it!

This is where local planning authorities need to be on the ball with Section 106 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. This section allows the collection of monies from developers to be included in Planning Conditions to provide for improvements in affected infrastructure.

To quote a government website....

Section 106 agreement
Section 106 of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 allows a Local Planning Authority (LPA) to enter into a legally-binding agreement or planning obligation, with a land developer over a related issue. The obligation is sometimes termed as a 'Section 106 Agreement'.

Such agreements can cover almost any relevant issue and can include sums of money.

S106 Agreements can act as a main instrument for placing restrictions on the developers, often requiring them to minimise the impact on the local community and to carry out tasks, which will provide community benefits.

This is an area that some Councils are a lot better at than others. It needs Council Officers to be knowledgable of the Act and to have the confidence to succesfully implement the Act where situations deserve.

DeepC

LTNman

28th Oct 2005, 19:48

Armed with a map of the new proposed airport boundary I took a ride out into the countryside to see what sort of countryside will be lost. Even a pro airport supporter like me was shocked at what will disappear particularly at the eastern end of the new runway. 8 attractive country lanes, homes, hedgerows and ancient woodland all set in rolling Chiltern countryside will disappear. Before people here give their total support for expansion they need to take a ride out to the country lane that passes through Diamond End Wood and ask themselves is it worth it. I for one was left feeling very sad. With the announced expansion of Stevenage and land at Wigmore reserved for future housing the future is definitely not green. :{ :{

Buster the Bear

28th Oct 2005, 20:21

Happily, all I can see from my Bear Palace are lanes, hedgerows, fields and open countryside, but I understand fully what you are saying. The new runway however, will not remove too many houses unlike runway 2 at Stansted. Breachwood Green should actually be quieter? Runway 3 at Heathrow will remove whole communities.

A few hectares of land seldom used by the vast majority of 'local' folk will hardly be a loss? Comforting to know that Someries Castle will remain intact, and who knows, maybe even more accessible?

So will Luton Hoo be overflown from the new runway, I am not too sure that the developers of this ex stately home will be too impressed?

Conservation is very important, so I hope that any land assumed by the plans will be offset by projects funded by the consortium to preserve and enhance the countyside. I just hope the environmentalists do not find any wild bears on the land to be developed, otherwise it will never happen!

Actually, creating facilities for the 'spotters' will ensure that the local 'pond life' are fully cared for.....Whoops...Only joking (Ha Ha Ha)!

Buster the Bear

28th Oct 2005, 21:43

This is from a train enthusiast:

"Inter-city trains aren't 12 coaches. I think you'll find that Thameslink are increasing to 12 coaches and that's why they need to lengthen the platforms. They'll be doing this at every Thameslink station, not just Luton Airport Parkway."

Powerjet1

29th Oct 2005, 05:57

With the introduction of the IOM schedule from 24 Nov, Aer Arann will be operating some 80 flights weekly to/from LTN, with 6200+ seats. Not bad from the initial start of a daily ATR42 from GWY a couple of years ago.

CAP670

29th Oct 2005, 09:05

It needs Council Officers to be knowledgable of the Act and to have the confidence to succesfully implement the Act where situations deserve.

Well - that leaves most of Luton Borough Council's officers and counsellors off the list of likely actionees, then...

:hmm:

This is from a train enthusiast:

Post-2007 when the 'new' St Pancras Station is fully operational, BAA has a cunning plan to commence a second Heathrow Express service from that station to Heathrow Airport using a couple of existing link lines between the Great Western main line and the Midland Main Line.

So it would be sensible if LLAO discussed with other train operators whether - subject to track capacity - additional services to/from Parkway could utilise the link at Cricklewood so as to facilitate direct train access to Luton from 'southwest of the Thames' and the southwestern Home Counties.

Any fellow railway :8 care to comment...??

Buster the Bear

29th Oct 2005, 10:55

I recall many years ago going on a football special direct from Luton to Bristol by train, so the lines were once there to link onto the Paddington line. A certain famous Eric from Harpenden sat in the first class seats.

I must have missed this being announced? I found this out via a friend that likes to ski! From the dates of the first flight, I guess the route has been delayed or will not happen?

http://www.kaernten.at/?page=_HP&srid=&rid=&gid=&bid=&tid=&sid=&lid=EN&jid=SO&typ=_content

&

http://www.carinthia-info.at/?arid=8475&LAid=en&SIid=135

LTNman

29th Oct 2005, 11:34

King Pong

29th Oct 2005, 16:11

Jo Public comments on the expansion plans for the airport can be found by scrolling down the page at http://www.bbc.co.uk/threecounties/content/articles/2005/10/25/luton_airport_expansion_feature.shtml

Powerjet1

29th Oct 2005, 20:19

Their plans include more routes into Luton.

Can't really imagine what they would be. Cork & Kerry would be jumped on by ryanair if they tried those.

Styrian Spirit are going through a few changes at the moment but I think the Klagenfurt - Luton is still likely to happen but could be delayed until January. We shall see what transpires.

airhumberside

29th Oct 2005, 20:34

Can't really imagine what they would be.
Donegal maybe, or Sligo?

LTNman

29th Oct 2005, 21:09

This info is from the financial year 2002/2003 but shows that Luton Airport Parkway was the 173rd busiest station in the UK out of 2496 stations and ahead of airport stations like Manchester but far behind Gatwick and Stansted. Not bad seeing that the station was then only 4 years old. http://www.sra.gov.uk/pubs2/performance_statistics/stat_usage/stat_usage.exc

Future plans for this station include some sort of monorail/ people mover which will terminate on the opposite side of the tracks to the existing station. I don’t know what happened to the trial using bendy busses which in my eyes was a big success as the existing buses just can’t cope with demand.

Buster the Bear

29th Oct 2005, 21:56

As I have said, time and time again, Cork was a success in the late 80's, I see see no reason why it would not work again for someone? Add Kerry to the list as well.

Maybe Arann (or another) should look to France and the ex-pats/second home owner destinations. Dinard was going well until pulled back into Essex.

Carinthian Spirit I believe they are re-branding as?

LTNman

30th Oct 2005, 04:39

The problem for Arran is that if they make a success of flying into say Cork from Luton then Ryanair will start to fly the route. Ryanair could well start to fly the route anyway without Arran’s help.

Aer Arran are better off flying into airports with sub 6000ft runways where Ryanair can’t go. Anyway who is saying that future routes will be using Irish based aircraft. :D I have heard that Jersey might be getting a year round service again together with Lorient. Jersey could well also suit BMI as they have spare lunchtime capacity from Luton from next February for a single rotation and already operate into Jersey from other UK airports.

Powerjet1

30th Oct 2005, 06:36

[QUOTE]I have heard that Jersey might be getting a year round service again

With Thomsonfly now starting sch ops from LTN in May, maybe they would look at JER for the future. with a 737. They already fly the route from CVT & DSA. Have to agree though, BMI would be a much more likely choice with a daily EMB145, mid-morning, in between the BRU ops.

Lorient with Aer Arrann would be useful.

nickmanl

30th Oct 2005, 12:50

So will Luton Hoo be overflown from the new runway, I am not too sure that the developers of this ex stately home will be too impressed?

What developers would these actually be? The hotel proposal collapsed a few years ago. Its just an old boarded up stately home at the moment which no one knows what to do with it, so I doubt this would be a problem.

Powerjet1

30th Oct 2005, 13:14

It is very much back on. The hotel group have now got approval to convert the building to a luxury 5 star, 120 bedroom country hotel. Conversion starts in the new year. I believe the cheapest room will be £180 per night, rising up to £750 per night. First residents due in late 2007. Guess some to the prospective clients might be a little concerned of ongoing airport developlment only a few hundred yards away.

King Pong

30th Oct 2005, 13:18

COMMENT: London Luton Airport from http://www.abtn.co.uk/

WILL four times as many passengers use Luton in 2030 as pass through it now? The Government and the airport certainly think so, and proposals have just been unveiled to meet this fourfold increase in demand.

In a 10-point outline of Project 2030, the airport’s managing director Kathryn James and Luton South MP Margaret Moran talked of the need for responsible growth and a necessity to meet predicted future demand.

They also tied the airport’s development to providing a new terminal and runway in time for London hosting the 2012 Olympics.

The highlights are:

Development will only happen when necessary.
A planning application for Project 2030 – Phase 1 will be submitted in early 2006. This includes extra aircraft stands, terminal extension, car parking and taxiway extension. Work completed by end of 2007.
A second planning application for Project 2030 - Phase 2 will be made in late 2006/early 2007. This will include a replacement runway, a new South Terminal, additional aircraft stands and a new fire station and control tower.
A new Reception Centre.
The existing runway will be maintained for use during emergencies and whilst essential maintenance is completed on the replacement runway.
The airport intends to open the replacement runway and new terminal for operation in 2012, in time for the Olympics.
Additional satellite piers and aircraft stands will be built incrementally in the period around 2015.
Development of office, warehousing, light industrial, engineering, hotel, flight catering and other facilities.
A number of surface access improvements.
An integrated package of surface access measures for airport users and the wider community.
But will all this planned development really be needed and which airlines will provide the massive increase in passenger numbers. With Stansted, Heathrow and Gatwick all planning major development, why should people in the south-east choose to go to Luton for their flights? Currently, the airport only has eight scheduled airlines operating from it and of these four are committed low-cost carriers, two are more or less charters and two are regional flyers.

Surely the airport needs to attract major long-haul carriers, not just its long-haul charter carriers, and more mainstream short-haul airlines to see the growth it thinks it will get. And it can’t just be a low-cost hub, as all predictions point to a major consolidation in that particular sector in the near future. So why would airlines pick Luton as a base from which to fly city pairs and give the airport its huge anticipated boost in passengers.

It certainly has room for expansion and there is a willingness from Government to help it reach its potential, unlike the London airports which rival it and which some MPs think should be opened up to more competition by the breaking up of BAA. So airlines could find the lounges, check-in desks and facilities they need through expansion of Luton, but would they find the passengers?

Like it or not, Luton still suffers from being the poor relation of the five London airports and the impression is that it takes forever to get there and it is still a charter or low-cost airport. All of the other London airports offer more scheduled flights to major European or worldwide destinations, and there is no reason why this will change in the future. And with all the airlines having already invested heavily in alternative London airports, why would they up sticks and move to Bedfordshire.

Of the airlines currently operating from there, major growth is obviously focused on Easyjet. After all, it was this airline which made Luton what it is today and allowed it to shed its exclusively charter image. Sure, the airline will grow at Luton, but who’s to say what will happen in the low-cost sector in the future or even if Easyjet will remain independently-owned. And unless the carrier decides to go global, its short-haul network is finite. So, with a great fanfare, Luton announced its intentions to the world, but the hard work starts now to convince airlines to back it, passengers to support it and the investment to prove its worth.

antilla

30th Oct 2005, 15:42

LTNman told us in an earlier thread: "after tax and after paying Luton Council £11.8m in fees the airport made 16p profit per passenger in 2004".

ebenezer responded: "Agreed - but this still represents a net profit of around £1.2m for 2004/05."

When it's time to spend the bulk of the £1.5bn for the new works, and passenger numbers might have doubled, the Airport might expect to be clearing a profit of £2.4m a year. But at that rate it would take over 600 years to recoup the cost of the works - which just doesn't add up.

However, if the airport pocketed the concession fee itself (because the new airport would no longer be on the Council's land), its annual profit could be as much as £26m. At that rate it would recoup the cost of the works in just under 60 years.

It remains to be seen whether anyone really would be prepared to invest over that timescale anyway, but it doesn't look as though the Council will be seeing much of its concession fee in the years ahead.

Or am I missing something? :confused:

PAXboy

30th Oct 2005, 16:37

LTNman all set in rolling Chiltern countryside Selecting Pedant mode, I think that the area you refer to is part of the Dunstable Downs? They start with Whipsnade? The Chilterns ends at (approx) the A4146, Hemel Hempstead to Leighton Buzzard road?

My Ordnance Survey shows that road some 11.5kms to the South West of the present site. Perhaps a local Bear or other resident, has an accurate line of the meeting point of The Chiltern Hills and The Dunstable Downs.

--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

King Pong

30th Oct 2005, 17:24

The Chilterns start in Oxfordshire and end at Hitchin. Map here http://www.chilternsaonb.org/map3.html

Buster the Bear

30th Oct 2005, 19:06

Luton Hoo, you should trust Buster, it will have a never noisy golf course!

Luton Borough Council own the airport and concession out its operation. Originally this was taken up by Airports Group International, they were bought by TBI who have recently been taken over by a Spanish consortium.

Unless the new operator has found a loophole to operate a new runway on non LBC land, thus creating a 'new' airport, the concession will still be in place.

The concession paid LBC a reputed £1.43 for every single passenger, not inc special deals.

The concession has under 20 years to run and I would anticipate this either being re-negotiated and extended, or for a bid to be tabled to buy LBC out?

Politically, LBC is a rather different animal to the red one that agreed to the concession, so may have an alternative agenda, but I doubt this.

The airport is a massive income subsidy for an authority having cuts made to its budgets. Since the concession was approved, LBC has been taking huge amounts of cash from the airport, but I do believe they re-invested some of their income into recent infrastructure projects, thus off-setting some of the concession payments?

Dunstable Down's is part of the Chiltern Hills. I have never associated The Hill that is the airport, as being part of the Chiltern's, but accoridng to folk that know these things, it extends through Luton onward to Hitchin, where it finishes. The airport part is not considered to be an Area of Oustanding Natural Beauty however, unlike me in my bear palace!

antilla

30th Oct 2005, 21:16

Buster, isn't this the whole point?

All the new development - new terminal, new runway, etc. - will be built on land that is outside the current boundary of the airport and is therefore outside the area covered by the concession agreement.

What right would the Council have to raise a levy on passengers that use the new privately-owned facilities that have been built on privately-owned land?

Not only that - but the old Council-owned airport would not be able to continue as a separate operation so close to the new airport, so the Council must surely lose out.

It looks as though Luton will lose its lucrative levy and lose its airport as well. Will the Councillors really just sit back and watch their airport being 'stolen' from under their noses?

Buster the Bear

30th Oct 2005, 21:44

So assuming that planning approval is given by which ever local authority that owns the land south side and a deal is struck with them, LBC will only get the income from passengers crossing the new 'boundary'?

Okay assuming again that this is a mere formality, you then have two seperate airports with a new runway that cannot be operated from whilst the one in Luton, Beds is operational!

Not a problem for LBC, they do a St Mawgen and charge everyone accessing the site from thier land a surcharge?

Seriously, do the new airport operators seriously think that they can build a new runway without consent from LBC and thier Westminster peers and then operate it with no regard to the concession that they have with LBC?

If so, BLIMEY, I cannot wait for the fireworks as there are (or I thought that there were) robust clauses within the Concession to automatically bring it back under LBC control should an operator forefit on its contractual obligations.

2012, more like 2112 once this lot were to go to a public, then legal high court/EU battle!

If ACDL are basing thier case for a new runway on not paying the concession charge, then........I wish them good luck.

LTNman

31st Oct 2005, 04:58

All passengers will pass through a reception centre for terminal 1 and terminal 2, to be located in the midterm car park which is firmly inside the old boundary so I guess there is no way to avoid a fee. Also expect to see a boundary change to encompass a bigger airport.

Lets not forget either that a change of Government could kill off these long term plans

antilla

31st Oct 2005, 08:06

Interesting point, LTNman.

Does that mean that LBC will itself buy the land that is needed for the new airport? It surely won't be enough just to move the borough boundary - LBC will have to own the land to be able to bring it into a new concession agreement.

Has LBC even got the money to buy the land if its budgets are so stretched at the moment?

Could ACDL and LBC end up in a bidding war for ownership of the relevant pieces of land - and would any secret agreement between them to avoid bidding against each other be legal?

And what about the business case for the new development if the Airport operators are only making a profit of a couple of million pounds a year? Who would invest in a project with a 600-year payback time?

Powerjet1

31st Oct 2005, 08:54

With Monarch launching new routes between Malaga & Aberdeen/Newquay/Blackpool from November, LTN was supposed to see an extra three Malaga flights on Tue/Thur/Sun, bringing the total to 11 weekly. It looks like this has changed. In Nov, there appears to an exta flight on a sat/sun, while Dec only sees an extra flight on a sat, apart from Xmas week. For the rest of the winter it is only Sat that has one extra flight. So instead of 11 weekly, apart from a few odd days. it is really nine weekly to AGP.

Buster the Bear

31st Oct 2005, 21:19

Powerjet1, now we have Spotty M adding to the previous easyJet extra 3 airframes rubbish?

The recent 'FL overthrow of Stelios' rumours have sent ripples right through the 'shrink wrapped' orange cabins!

Are the other so called 'Lo-Co's' running for cover now that the Harp's are in force? Or is there a pact between blue jeans and MOL?

Nice to see MOL backing the Olympic Games, well Luton's bid anyway!

Powerjet1

1st Nov 2005, 05:41

Buster, certainly seems that way.

Looking again, I think my previous post was slightly wrong. There are still eight flights weekly to AGP by MON, not nine, for the winter. It looks like the three 'extra flights' that were going to be operated by the based AGP are aircraft, are not happening. Note. Just received an email from MON confirming the 3 extra flights between LTN-AGPhave been abandoned.

Re easy, how many based aircraft do they currently have at LTN. Is it 13,14 or ?.

Are First Choice still opening a crew base at LTN this winter with a based 320.

nickmanl

1st Nov 2005, 10:15

Regarding the land at Junction 10, I have heard the sticking point regarding Luton Town football club and the owner is not the price of the land, but how the money will be paid. LTFC want to pay upfront but the owner wants it down in installments.

This land will not be sold to the airport.

Another question, I know its trivial, but will Luton's website ever announce the BMI regional service? I thought they'd be shouting from the roof tops about it!

OLNEY 1 BRAVO

1st Nov 2005, 11:47

Powerjet 1 - yes .. the aircraft postions up from Gatwick this afternoon. The based Canadian aircraft undertook it's last Summer Season flight yesterday and then positioned to Manchester.

Powerjet1

1st Nov 2005, 13:29

Easy opened their new state of the art training academy at Ltn yesterday.

Helios winter schedules seems to have held up well, despite recent tragic events. Daily flights to LCA for the winter ex sat, three via PFO.

LTNman

1st Nov 2005, 14:50

Regarding the land at Junction 10, I have heard the sticking point regarding Luton Town football club and the owner is not the price of the land, but how the money will be paid. LTFC want to pay upfront but the owner wants it down in installments.

It was announced on the BBC that the football stadium will now not be built at junction 10 due the proposed new runway and its safety zone.

Powerjet1

1st Nov 2005, 15:16

That's right. The new runway would cause the edge of the public safety zone to fall right over the stadium development at jct 10. It looks as if the Hatters will not now be pursuing a new stadium here, but have been in talks for land slightly further north, adjacent jct 12.

Any further north and they will be skirting Milton Keynes.

LTNman

1st Nov 2005, 16:26

Chicken and the egg? If the football club built a football stadium first would this stop the new runway? If the airport built a runway first would this stop the stadium?

Clearly talks have been going on behind the scenes. In the project 2030 documentation it mentions a park and ride scheme for junction 10.

Buster the Bear

1st Nov 2005, 19:55

Page 84 of the proposal signs the death warrant for the new ground! Club are not prepared to take a planning application risk ahead of the submission of the airports formal planning application in 2007.

Never mind, Junction 12 here we come!

PAXboy

1st Nov 2005, 20:44

Buster The airport part is not considered to be an Area of Oustanding Natural Beauty No $hit? :}

--------------------
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

Buster the Bear

1st Nov 2005, 21:26

If Buster was lurking within the trees south of the existing runway, then it probably would be!

LTNman

2nd Nov 2005, 04:56

It’s very easy to support something that doesn’t directly affect us in our home lives and in an area south of the existing runway that most of us probably don’t know very well. . While I don’t have any sympathy with people living in Breachwood Green who chose to live in the flight path of an airport I do have sympathy with people who didn’t and now find their homes threatened with destruction or with noise pollution. There is probably a NIMBY in all of us if we admitted the truth.

Buster the Bear

2nd Nov 2005, 08:53

In my opinion, the word 'Green Belt' is meaningless now that the Deputy PM has sanctioned thousands of homes to be built to the west of the A1 and Stevenage.

I understood that quite a number of the homes south side of the runway are rented, so many will not 'lose thier home'?

I would not be very impressed if I lived in Peter's Green!

King Pong

2nd Nov 2005, 12:46

I see that the concrete batching plant that was located next to the cargo centre was taken down and removed yesterday after taking up residence for several years. I guess there are no immediate plans to lay anymore concrete.

DDF

2nd Nov 2005, 13:03

Word is easyJet are moving all of easyLand into H89 the former Britannia building within the next 12 months

Powerjet1

2nd Nov 2005, 13:58

DDF

Details of the move all announced on easy's website today. Will free up even more space for aircraft parking stands to be built.

LGS6753

2nd Nov 2005, 15:11

This is excellent news as it opens up a large parcel of land from the taxiway underpass to the South Stands and the East Apron. There's room there for a massive terminal extension, a multi-storey car park, six-nine more aircraft stands, two piers or a compound for bears exiled from Whipsnade!!

Buster the Bear

2nd Nov 2005, 21:18

No parking adjacent to easyLand for their employees, that will mean taking the staff bus then?

Painting H89 orange, can they do this?

So easyJet's grand H.Q along Kimpton Rd (I saw the plans and GRAND is an understatement) becomes a corner of a hangar that is far past its 'designed for' age! Is this desperation?

I guess the predicted revenue for this coming winter, forces the new management team to make some really LOw COst decisions? Add to this the possible impending FL Group challenge to Stelios Chairmanship!

MOL must be need medical aid for his continuous laughter especially as easy have opened the Taj for Teaching on the industrial estate. How much additional expense is this?

Do the Icelandic's think that Sterling is a real nice name for a UK based airline? Well it sounds better than Euro!

Anyway, still no room for a Bear compound!

LTNman

3rd Nov 2005, 05:20

Much of the accommodation is on mezzanine floors located at one end of the hangar and is in a poor state of repair as it hasn't been used for years. All of the office accommodation is classed as airside as there is free access onto the hangar floor so unless some serious internal barriers are installed all members of staff will need airside passes which come at a price.

I can also see parking is going to be a real issue. The existing staff car park will disappear as will the airport staff car park next to Harrods. This will leave some easyjet staff parking at the front of the hangar and in the car park at the base of the tower. Everyone else will be catching the car hire coaches to the back of the airport. Talking to some duty free staff this can add 30 minutes to their travelling times, as these buses are not that frequent.

I have been wondering where the multi story car park is going to be located. Wherever it goes it will have to be quite slim to fit in the gap between the new apron and the roadway that leads to the tunnel. In the short term I can’t see easyjet staff or any airport staff being allowed to park in there until the new reception centre in the mid term car park is built which will then free up the multi story car park for staff parking as passengers cars will no longer be driving through the tunnel.

egnxema

3rd Nov 2005, 10:18

Ray Webster says "I cannot wait to see the whole building [H89]painted orange."

:ugh:

I think the rest of us can Ray!

andyafc

3rd Nov 2005, 14:30

On Klagenfurt airport's website it shows a new daily route to Luton from december with Carinthian Spirit, anybody know if this is true, nothing as yet on the LTN website

Powerjet1

3rd Nov 2005, 14:47

Nothing new there. LTN's website is always way behind.
The flights are to be operated by Styrian Spirit on a Tu/Thu/Sat/Sun starting 17 Dec. Bookings will start from 11 Nov. Late morning arr/dep at LTN.

LTNman

3rd Nov 2005, 16:55

Gulfstream Aerospace is confident of receiving full maintenance approvals for its current product range at its European facility by early next year, as the company hints at further non-US expansion.

Gulfstream's London Luton airport service centre was acquired in April 2003 from Signature Air Support and previously had no Gulfstream overhaul approvals.

Over the past two years its engineers have undergone re-training and the facility has been re-certificated by the US Federal Aviation Administration and European Aviation Safety Agency to carry out maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) work for all "legacy" Gulfstream aircraft such as the G-V and G-VI superlarge range, the company says.

The company says it is "working on" extending its competence to the G450, G550 types and expects to receive approvals by the first quarter of next year with further types added over time.

The approvals represent a turnaround from Signature's MRO activity, which concentrated on Cessna Citation, Dassault Falcon Jet and Raytheon Hawker ranges.

"We've gone from zero Gulfstream to 95% of our business," says Gulfstream Luton service centre general manager Frank DeFelice.

Since acquisition Gulfstream has doubled the size of the facility from 2,600m2 (28,000ft2) to 5,200m2 and hired an additional 30 staff to take the total to 70 at the site, 50km (35miles) from central London.

The two hangars can accommodate six aircraft simultaneously, says DeFelice.

Gulfstream declines to give specific figures for aircraft passing through the facility, but says Luton represents one of the most concentrated clusters of Gulfstreams outside the USA and the facility has captured a lot of business that was previously going to the USA.

"I looked at the volume of Gulfstream and it's here not Farnborough, but there was also a big driver in our relationship with Signature," says Larry Flynn, Gulfstream president product support.

Gulfstream has six service centres in the USA as well as six General Dynamics Aviation Services centres working primarily on non-Gulfstream types.

Luton was the first outside the USA, although Flynn says other sites are being considered, although no final decision has been taken.

"You have to ask 'how many places can you set up a pure-Gulfstream maintenance shop?' so there would have to a concentration of aircraft in service," says Flynn.

Gulfstream has three approved service centres in Switzerland and another in Israel.

The company is also considering basing a second dedicated parts logistics aircraft in Luton to offer European customers the same dispatch service carried out with a G150 based in Savannah, Georgia, adds Flynn.

"While 80% of the fleet is in the USA, as you sell more aircraft in Europe then we would consider basing an aircraft here," he says.

The Luton facility houses around $3.2 million in spare parts, or just over 1% of the $275 million global inventory.

Gulfstream Luton is the first service centre outside the USA to receive the FAA's Aviation Maintenance Technician (AMT) diamond certificate of excellence.

Buster the Bear

3rd Nov 2005, 20:37

Carinthian Spirit? Buster told you first, you only have to read backwards on this thread from here!

EXCELLENT NEWS!

Has Luton ever offered a scheduled route to Austria?

No Concession charge for Gulfstream's only $$$ for the consortium!

Powerjet1

4th Nov 2005, 05:22

Wizz is increasing LTN flights to POZ from 4 to 5 weekly from 1 Dec, and to 7 from 27Mar 06. GDN goes up from 11 to 12 weekly from 1 Dec & into the summer sch. WAW increases from 10 to 14 weekly, also from 1 Dec.

By early Dec, Wizz would have carried almost 750,000pax to/from LTN, since it started flights on 17 May 2004. Not bad for a new start up, which most people only gave a 6 months life span when it commenced operations.

London(LTN) is the busiest & most successful destination on the Wizz network.

andyafc

4th Nov 2005, 12:52

Regarding wizz's growth, there presence is certainly felt in the luton population, 10,000 strong poles now in luton

bacardi walla

4th Nov 2005, 13:01

So how come there is no direct link to Bombay or Pakistan from LTN :O

Buster the Bear

4th Nov 2005, 13:18

Where do the weak Pole's live?

Great Wizz news.

LTNman

4th Nov 2005, 13:55

Regarding wizz's growth, there presence is certainly felt in the luton population, 10,000 strong poles now in luton

As a Luton resident I can believe it. These impoverished Poles could just about afford the airfare but not the train ticket to London so they have settled here. Some even didn’t make it out of the airport. Need a Polish interpreter, just go to one of the airport bars or restaurants. Thousands of new homes planned for Luton for an indigenous population that doesn’t grow.

Buster the Bear

4th Nov 2005, 19:10

I see BMI have yet to announce where the available rotation by the Jungle Jet will go?

Munich was announced from Edinburgh by BMI this week and this was a rumoured route form Luton?

10,000 Poles in Luton, maybe he means telegraph ones or possibly the poles marking out the new development!

redsnail

4th Nov 2005, 22:14

I know exactly where 9,000 of them are living too. In my street!! :ooh:

Powerjet1

5th Nov 2005, 04:57

On the back of this success, Wizz will be launching two, possibly three new destinations into LTN in S06, so expect even more Poles down your street. The only route that seems not to have enjoyed the growth of all the others though is BUD. This started with a daily rotation, gradually increased to three daily, but for the last four months has gone back down to single daily.

Noted that Sytrian Spirit now have a note on their website confirming the launch of the KLU-LTN flights in Dec, with bookings starting at the end of the coming week. The route will transfer to LGW for the summer because of the longhaul connections. A short-lived service from LTN!!!.

D7666

5th Nov 2005, 09:13

Just responding to some of the msgs about Luton rail links.

I know this is not a rail forum but here goes anyway as it seems to be of interest :-

[1] Direct rail link plan from Heathrow to St. Pancras was killed of more than 2-3 years ago. There is no allowance in the present rebuild of St. Pancras station area for anything more than CTRL international trains, CTRL domestic trains to Kent, and Midland main line trains. There is not even capacity for emergency Thameslink diversions. Layout and platforms are *exactly* limited to CTRL and MML.

[2] 12 car Thameslink trains - this is presently part of Thameslink 2000 upgrade - and not before. 12 cars is a good deal more complex than it might seem. At the moment, north of the Thames, only City Thameslink station can take 12 cars. The platform lengthening project requires closure of the present Thameslink Moorgate line, as the only way to get Farringdon for 12 cars is to extend across the present junction - and you can't close Moorgate until the route, track and signalling infrastructure is expanded on the through route. Blackfriars also can't take 12 cars without a bridge rebuild (by re-use of the piers you can see upstream from the present rail bridge, in between that and the road bridge) which obviously is a major project in its own right. Existing Kings Cross Thameslink has no hope of ever being made 12-car - see (3). So, as you can't run 12-cars on the present set up from any of Kings Cross Thameslink, Farringdon of Blackfriars, you are screwed as far as the rest of the route is concerned.

(3) As I'm sure most know, even when St. Pancras International opens in 2007, the new Kings Cross St. Pancras Thameslink station does not (unless funds and word start PDQ). This is the replacement station for the present Kings Cross Thameslink and - when it does open - will be 12 cars. It was building this station box that closed Thameslink as the through route from September 2004 to May 2005 - but only the box and not the station itself. The box was built as part of CTRL works and funded by that, the station is part of TL2000 which has no funds (yet, and at the present progress rate may be TL3000).

(4) One more thing - ot may get worse before it gets better. The present Thameslink franchise holder GOVIA also holds the ''south central'' franchise known as Southern (SN) (mainly out of Victoria to Sussex coast and Surrey suburbia). The fleet of 86 class 319 trains (the only one that have authority to run through Thameslink tunnels for practical purposes) run as a common user pool, but with a paper accountancy use by SN of a number of them. At no time so far in history have all 86 319s ever run on a permanent basis solely for Thameslink, even in British Rail days. (All 86 did during the recent tunnel block but reverted to SN straight away after it was re-opened). It was had been planned that as from 12/2005 all 86 319s would - at last - come under Thameslink sole use allowing more 8 car trains. But, as GOVIA has lost the Thameslink franchise and that another plan is possible elimination of Gatwick Express as a separate operation, SN have said they need the 319s for their own use. The issue here is that the paper allocation of 319s to SN was always 20 units even though they were only using 7 or 8 for the last 18 months or so. What this means is - if it is allowed to happen - Thameslinks train resource will drop from the present 77-78 units to 66, whereas it should have risen to 86. Will result in more 4car than 8car trains then there are now. (This explains why some 319s are now running in SN green and white colours which some of you may have seen.)

So, as you can't run 12-cars on the present set up from any of Kings Cross Thameslink, Farringdon of Blackfriars, and St. Pancras has no present or future capacity for Thameslink trains you are stuck with the present set up which may even be losing some trains.

The present franchise is up for grabs between the 5 bidders as reported already. Whether there will be some movement on TL2000 after 02/2006 when the new bidder is known, and whether anyone will push TL2000 for Olympics 2012 is anyones guess.

Hope you don't mind. I'm not a professional in the air line industry (in fact I'm unemployed any job hints out there ??? ) but live in Luton, follow civil aviation as well as trains, and I was pointed to this learned forum by one who does fly 757s for a living as being of serious interest (and that last bit is certainly true).

OK, end of rant, I'll go back to the trainspotter anorak now :o)

--
Nick

King Pong

5th Nov 2005, 16:32

Thanks for the rail update. The short term future looks bleak for airport rail users with no chance for a dedicated Luton Airport rail service as per Heathrow Express, Gatwick Express and Stansted Express.

ebenezer

5th Nov 2005, 16:49

This is excellent news as it opens up a large parcel of land from the taxiway underpass to the South Stands and the East Apron.

The interim 'Max Out' strategy to take the existing runway to its theoretical maximum use sees (subject to planning permission) a new 'Southeast Apron' with six B767 stands i.e. a mirror image of the existing East Apron, built in the area that's currently the car park, two more piers - 'B' and 'C' linking the existing terminal with this new apron (Pier 'B') and serving what is currently the South Apron stands (Pier 'C').

easyJet will have moved out to Hangar 89 and elsewhere, and Harrods will transfer all its operations to the existing Hangars 201/202 site with the associated apron ('Stand 62') being doubled in size by a southerly extension plus additional access/exit from Taxiway Delta.

Subject to the necessary planning permission, this is all planned to be completed by the Spring of 2007.

As to the batching plant being removed - it's probably going to be replaced by a larger version...

In response to the inevitable "doom & gloomers" Luton's image HAS changed (Airport that is - not Toilet Town!) and it's worth remembering that 35 years ago, many so-called "informed experts" claimed that nobody in their right mind would choose to travel from an airport located in deepest Sussex (we're talking about Gatwick here - not Shoreham...), whilst 25 years ago these same "informed experts" were muttering about a white elephant airport located in rural Essex (i.e. Stansted).

Time will tell, but make no mistake about it the intent, organisation and ability (i.e. financial clout) to develop Luton is there.

:)

King Pong

5th Nov 2005, 21:25

The terminal is set to grow in size by around 25% or around 15 check-in desks. So where is the multistory car park going to be located? Will there be any car parking in the central area while the construction work is in progress? How far will the new drop off area be to the existing terminal when the add on is being built?

Subject to the necessary planning permission, this is all planned to be completed by the Spring of 2007
The airport say late 2007 which really means summer 2008

LTNman

6th Nov 2005, 05:07

Much of LTN’s previous development work has appeared to be haphazard with no thought about future expansion. That was not the case with the laying out of the eastern apron. The location was precise to allow 4 additional stands, which became the northern apron. More importantly its position allowed a mirror apron of the eastern apron to just fit in between the eastern apron and the south stands with room for 2 additional piers to be slotted into the gaps.

Luton presently has 31 stands that are used for terminal passengers including stands 10- 15L which are also used for maintenance. While a new apron would give 6 additional wide body stands in reality the stands will also be marked out to take 8 737’s. Another 4 737’s could also use the south stands giving a grand total of 43 stands.

Taking a walk around the central area now will reveal that it will be a logistical nightmare to relocate the passenger and staff car parks while this work is going on. The first step must surly be to build a multi story car park for passengers before commencing any other work. Anyone know how many floors/ parking places are planned?

Staff will be the big losers here with most of them including the easyland hangar HQ workers being bussed to the back of beyond to pick up their cars. It won’t be just them either as easyjet flight crew have also had access to the central staff car park.

Harrods newly completed exec terminal will be knocked down which won’t please them nor will they be too pleased at loosing the handy south apron. Their passengers won’t like the morning rush hour queues around the back of the hangars to get from stand 62 to out of the airport and the pilots won’t like the extended taxi times as they join the one way system from taxiway Bravo onto Alpha through the main apron to taxiway Echo past the Northern apron onto taxiway Delta to get onto stand 62 when the runway in use is 26.

ebenezer

6th Nov 2005, 08:44

Their passengers won’t like the morning rush hour queues around the back of the hangars to get from stand 62 to out of the airport

Correct!

Which brings us nicely back to the issue of the cr*p local road system in Luton, the cr*p local Borough Council and it's cr*p road planning, because on past performance, absolutely nothing will be achieved by 2007 irrespective of the amount of development undertaken on the Airport site.

The idiots couldn't even get the traffic lights at the bottom of Airport Way to work properly!!

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Powerjet1

6th Nov 2005, 09:18

LLA have announced details of their public exhibitions re their draft Master Plan. There seems to be about 15 being held prior to Christmas. Some of the larger locations are.....

Milton Keynes 10 November
Stevenage 14 November
Wendover(Aylesbury) 16 November
Luton 24/25 November
Dunstable 30 November
Bedford 20 December
Hitchin 21 December

Wait for the fireworks !!!!!!

CAP493

6th Nov 2005, 10:37

Staff will be the big losers here with most of them including the easyland hangar HQ workers being bussed to the back of beyond to pick up their cars. It won’t be just them either as easyjet flight crew have also had access to the central staff car park.

LTNman - this is an inevitable consequence of Luton developing and 'growing up'.

The majority of Heathrow's 'coal-face' staff that work in the Central Area have to park northside and are bussed in and out; the ATC staff at Gatwick also have to park remotely and are transported to/from the control tower; even at Southampton, airport staff have to park in the long-stay car park and take the shuttle bus to the terminal area.

Apart from flight crew, it will be interesting to see which other staff at Luton have to park remotely and catch a shuttle bus to/from their employment location. Given the wholly inadequate road system on the Airport and the apparent inability of LLAO and the Council to improve things even on an interim basis, anyone unfortunate enough to be travelling during the 'rush hours' is likely to find their daily journey to/from work extended by up to 50 minutes [25 minutes each way] which is a significant amount of wasted time.

Since the aim of LLAO is to 'encourage' as many staff as possible to use public transport (the alleged 'Green' approach) no doubt the loss of any/most/all staff parking facilities in Luton's Central Terminal Area will be seen as being simply part of this initiative.

However, for H24 shift workers, unless they can easily use/access Thameslink's services, public transport is hardly a viable commuting option.

:ugh:

LTNman

6th Nov 2005, 11:21

Which brings us nicely back to the issue of the cr*p local road system in Luton, the cr*p local Borough Council and it's cr*p road planning, because on past performance, absolutely nothing will be achieved by 2007 irrespective of the amount of development undertaken on the Airport site.

Lets not forget the massive housing scheme that has been started at Butterfield Green on the A505 next to the towns crematorium. The only road improvement was the construction of a large roundabout to feed traffic onto the A505. New traffic from here will add to the congestion from the east as well as adding traffic going to the M1

Powerjet1

6th Nov 2005, 11:53

Lets not forget the massive housing scheme that has been started at Butterfield Green on the A505 next to the towns crematorium.

Isn't this the hi-tech enterprise park set to employ some 1200 people plus 4* hotel. Is house development planned here as well?

Pity the Styrian Spirit ops between LTN-KLU will only run until 26 March, when it will transfer to LGW as their preferred airport because of longhaul connections.

Can't help feeling that despite all the expansion earmarked by the spanish operators at LTN, they will always have an uphill struggle in attracting new business into LTN, rather than the airlines choosing LGW or STN in preference. What can they offer to the many establised airlines flying into these airports, to up sticks and move to LTN. Not much apart from the availability of slots. Certainly not better access or facilities.

LTNman

6th Nov 2005, 14:07

I'm hearing that the BMI service to Brussels might not happen after all even though they are taking bookings. Might explain why there hasn’t been any announcement on the airports website about this service.

Buster the Bear

6th Nov 2005, 17:38

Well you can indeed book on BMI's and Expedia's web sites. A bit daft for a non event?

easyJet celebrate thier 10th birthday this coming week.

Powerjet1

7th Nov 2005, 10:13

Wizz have announced they are starting flights from Wroclaw to Dortmund in March. Wizz is the 5th city in Poland to be served by Wizz. With all the others served from LTN, I'm sure Wroclaw will shortly become the first of up to three new routes that Wizz will be starting from LTN during 2006.

Buster the Bear

7th Nov 2005, 15:55

Daily flight by Aer Arann to Lorient starting from next March according to the Arann home page. If you look at the timetable the flight departs from Luton at 09:00, arriving back from Lorient late afternoon. One can assume that another route is to follow to feed the aircraft into Luton for the 09:00 departure, because the timings for Galway, Waterford and IOM are unaltered?

It is going to be rather busy next summer!

Powerjet1

7th Nov 2005, 16:14

Cork maybe?????

LTNman

7th Nov 2005, 18:12

Daily flight by Aer Arann to Lorient starting from next March according to the Arann home page

As exclusively revealed by me in October. :cool:

and yes there is more to come!

Buster the Bear

7th Nov 2005, 18:35

Now Cork would keep the in-laws happy, Kerry would have them doing a jig!

Lorient should satisfy some of the second home owners now that Dinard has gone back to Essex?

All this expansion, but none from easyJet!

andyafc

8th Nov 2005, 18:48

Possibility about wizz starting wroclaw and many others, gd news with new lorient service and maybe even cork? Cant see why not unless ryanair jump in

Buster the Bear

8th Nov 2005, 21:44

Nov 10th, ten years of easyJet. Are they going to announce further expansion from thier home base airport, or leave it to thier competitors to lead the way?

nickmanl

8th Nov 2005, 23:51

To be honest Buster, whilst I know all expansion is good news I'd much rather see other airlines continue to expand to help erase a bit of that glaring orange!

Buster the Bear

9th Nov 2005, 09:42

By the time easyJet are in a position to expand from Luton, other airlines will have taken on the extra capacity that is scheduled to be delivered by the airport for 2007 inc terminal and apron developments?

H89 painted easyOrange, that will look nice! I hope they have a big pot of paint as it will probably take a year to paint it, so just in time for easyJet to move in!

Powerjet1

9th Nov 2005, 14:29

Heard Luton could face disruption near Xmas since the TGWU are likely to poll workers for stike action, because it claims Polish workers are being paid less than their UK counterparts. Seems to involve Big Orange Handling.

andyafc

9th Nov 2005, 14:56

This could well be true, i work at Luton and know that about 20 poles started working for the big orange handling company and are on significantly lower wages than there english counterparts, but can you blame the big orange company? Cheaper workers for a low cost airline why not

Buster the Bear

9th Nov 2005, 18:18

October passenger figures: Stansted only up 0.6% at 1.917m.

Why the less than single digit growth? Seems very odd especially as Ryanair have more based planes there than during Oct 04?

Granted the monthly figure is high, but to me, the growth only means one thing, plenty of empty seats on planes?

Buster the Bear

9th Nov 2005, 20:30

Expect a bit of a media circus in the Tinminal tomorrow, especially for the 10th anniversary departure to Glasgow!

Now where is my autograph book?

No I am not that sad!

michaelknight

9th Nov 2005, 21:06

Heard a sniff of a rumour that Aer Arann may even open a base in Luton. Looking at the timetable it would make sense. Four routes out of there and counting. The luton lorient is coupled with lorient kerry and back. All with 30 min turnarounds. It would certainly please some of their pilots who are from that neck of the woods anyway.

Buster the Bear

9th Nov 2005, 21:07

How many passengers passed through Luton and was its growth less than single digit, mirroring that of it near neighbour and Lo-Co capital.....My guess is no?

Stansted in October, more planes, more movements, but not any extra passengers. Worrying for the industry, or just the BAA?

Has stagnation finally arrived in Essex?

Powerjet1

10th Nov 2005, 05:41

So it's Happy Birthday easyjet, the 10th anniversary celebrations can begin. Isn't uncle RW on the LTN-GLA flight today, this being the first flight for easy all those millions of passengers ago.

LGS6753

10th Nov 2005, 16:33

The timings of the Lorient operation imply one or more extra destinations to be served from there. Taken from the Aer Arann website:

Luton-Lorient depart 0900 return 1515, SIX days a week.

Lorient-Kerry depart 1100 and dep Kerry 1310 Mon/Fri only.

So:

1. an 0900 start is rather late for the first departure of a based aircraft. So does it arrive from another destination (where?) or is aircraft utilisation poor (unlikely).

2. If LTN-Lorient + turnround is 2 hours (0900-1100), how does the aircraft do Kerry-Lorient + turnround + Lorient-Luton in 2 hours 5 (1310-1515)? Or is the explanation in the French double summer time?

3. What does the aircaft do on the other 4 days?

TOM1977

10th Nov 2005, 18:06

Just wanted to check if the big news that we were waiting for today has been postponed ??

Previously on this forum it has been mentioned 'to wait until November 10th !!'

Any news ??

Buster the Bear

10th Nov 2005, 18:50

The concern eminated orginally from within easyJet, fearing that their birthday celebrations would be undermined?

LTNman

10th Nov 2005, 19:07

Red letter day for Luton last week as the airport hits the big 9

Buster the Bear

10th Nov 2005, 19:35

Any idea of the number of passengers and percentage growth for Oct 05?

King Pong

10th Nov 2005, 19:39

John Menzies says Luton airport dispute over Polish workers resolved
11.09.2005, 10:26 AM

LONDON (AFX) - John Menzies PLC, the UK logistics group, has moved swiftly to resolve a potentially damaging industrial dispute over pay rates for Polish ground handling workers at Luton airport.

Earlier the Transport and General Workers union warned that flights out of the airport could face disruption this Christmas if ground staff voted for strike action over claims Polish workers were being 'exploited'.

The union said it had been told that Big Orange Handling Company, the ground handling business 76 pct owned by Menzies and 24 pct owned by easyJet PLC, the no-frills airline, is using an agency which is bringing workers in directly to Luton from Poland.

The T&G claimed these workers are being paid 'substantially less' than the UK workers doing the same job.

'If someone is doing a job they should be paid the rate for that work and in the case of the ground handlers for Big Orange Handling that is just over 7 stg an hour,' said John Street, T&G regional organiser in a statement.

'We believe the workers coming in from the agency are not being paid that. If this is the case, we will ask our [200-plus] members at that company if they will support a ballot for strike action as part of a campaign to get justice for the Polish workers.'

Menzies responded by stating the entry level for Big Orange Handling employees is 6.55 stg per hour, while the agency has been paying the Polish workers 6.50 stg an hour.

'This is unacceptable and is an administrative error,' it admitted.

'An instruction has been issued to the agency to pay 6.55 stg per hour and to back date the additional 5 pence an hour. The Big Orange Handling Company apologise for this error but can confirm it has now been rectified.'

Menzies thanked the T&G for pointing out the issue but expressed surprise the union had issued a press notice since the company had yesterday agreed to investigate the matter.

Buster the Bear

10th Nov 2005, 21:27

Mr John Street. Still only a regional organiser after all these years!

LTNman

11th Nov 2005, 14:44

I hear that the much delayed resurfacing of the runway will be started next Spring. The work will take 6 months and will be done in two phases of three months each. The runway will be closed for 5 hours each night for 5 nights of the week.

Powerjet1

11th Nov 2005, 15:57

Buster

LTN's Prov Oct figures show 818,076pax, an increase of 15% on Oct 04. Rolling 12 months to 31 Oct 05 was 8.97m pax, an increase for the year of 22.5%.

As LTN man said, the rolling 9m pax was passed a few days ago.

LTNman

11th Nov 2005, 16:27

9.2 million expected by the years end. Expect a big drop in growth from February as the Ryanair increase from their new services which started January 2005 is taken out of the calculations.

Powerjet1

11th Nov 2005, 20:28

The airport are predicting 10.2m pax for 2006, about 1m up on this year, giving an average 10% growth. We must assume they know where this is coming from, and most of the likely candidates have been the subject of frequent discussion on this thread anyway, so no real surprises.

Buster the Bear

11th Nov 2005, 20:49

BMI
Arann
Wizz
easyJet.....NO!
Ryanair.........Possible
Stryian
Monarch........Possible
Britanniaflythomsonflightsfly

Powerjet1

12th Nov 2005, 04:59

Agreed, and hopefully a couple of names that are new to Luton at the moment!!!.

Styrian Spirit are now taking bookings on their KLU-LTN service that starts mid-Dec. As stated previously, this looks like being only a three month operation, as it's the airlines' intention to transfer to LGW from end of March 06, because of the availability of longhaul connections.

LTNman

12th Nov 2005, 05:46

Its bad news for next year as LTN will only be CAT 1(550 RVR) for almost 6 months while the runway is resurfaced in two phases. Phase 1 which starts March 1st will not be finished until the end of June so will have a major impact on the IT fights that normally return in the early hours. Phase 2 starts in October and with the runway again reduced to Cat 1 we can expect some days of major diversions, cancellations, and mayhem as the airport grinds to a halt.

Preparation work starts next week with the runway closed for 5 nights of the week for the next 3 months. The runway will reopen briefly for 1 inbound flight but that’s it. I have no idea how this will affect cargo operations out of Luton but the work up until the end of February will result in 4 hour runway closures while the major work will close the runway for almost 6 hours.

I hear after the Breachwood Green consultation day at their village hall that some villagers are not at all happy with the news of the airports nighttime closures. They were complaining about the noise that will be made resurfacing the runway and the fact that reversing lorries have warning bleepers.

Major resurfacing work affected Halifax in Canada this year, not many people here will have heard of Halifax but it made the national press and TV stations in Canada as passengers suffered major delays due to fog rolling off the Atlantic. Just hoping that we get a fog free 2006.
:{

Buster the Bear

12th Nov 2005, 12:37

Luton fog free, the only place in the UK that can be CAVOK one minute and 150m the next!

The runway works have been put back time and time again, they must be really necessary by now!

King Pong

12th Nov 2005, 13:07

I wonder sometimes whether the automated RVR readers have been set for an over cautious reading. There has been many a time that the RVR has been given at say 200m yet the wig wags at the enterance to runway 26 can be clearly seen from the terminal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The first phase of preparation work for the £289m widening of the M1 between the M25 and Luton (M1 Jct 6a-10) starts alongside the motorway next Monday (November 14th).

The Highways Agency scheme will widen 10 miles of the motorway to four lanes in each direction to relieve congestion and improve safety. The M1 in Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire is one of the busiest motorways in Britain, carrying over 160,000 vehicles per day.
Dr Stephen Ladyman, the Minister for Roads, said: "Regular users of the M1, business and leisure travellers, hauliers, and airport traffic will be delighted to hear that widening of this busy section of the M1 is due to start soon. Once widening is completed, the M1 between Milton Keynes and St Albans is planned to host Britain's first motorway car share lane, a dedicated lane for vehicles carrying two or more people during peak hours."
This early work involves fencing, site clearance, setting up site offices and installing temporary CCTV cameras to help motorists in the event of breakdown. There will be some temporary hard shoulder closures while this work takes place but it will not affect the main carriageway.
As noted by Ladyman, the scheme will incorporate a trial of Britain's first motorway car share lane, as announced on 9th December 2004. This is an new idea to the UK and is intended to reduce congestion and improve journey times on the M1 by creating a dedicated lane during peak hours for vehicles carrying two or more people.
Details of the work involved have been posted at http://www.highways.gov.uk/roads/projects/motorways/m1/j6a_j10/

CAP493

12th Nov 2005, 15:53

I hear after the Breachwood Green consultation day at their village hall that some villagers are not at all happy with the news of the airports nighttime closures. They were complaining about the noise that will be made resurfacing the runway and the fact that reversing lorries have warning bleepers.

Presumably then, these NIMBYs would not wish LTN to be closed and converted into an H24 industrial site...??

The Category 1 downgrade is exactly as happened at Birmingham some years ago during a major runway resurfacing programme, and it's why Luton's runway resurfacing project has been moved to the Spring/Summer from the Autumn/Winter period.

It's an unfortunate fact of life that Luton's runway is long overdue for resurfacing - it should have been completed about six years ago but clearly Luton Borough Council (LBC) decided to leave this costly project until after the Concession had been let!

Bet LLAO wishes it had undertaken a 'Schedule of Delapidation' before signing up and assuming operational resposnsibility. The LBC officials involved must be wetting themselves laughing...

Interestingly...there is talk of hourly runway movement rates for late Spring and Summer 2006 now reaching 40 (current declaration is 32) on occasions - if ongoing negotiations, and the associated runway slots come to fruition.

Still, with the runway closed at night-time, at least the Breachwood Green village idiots will be able to sleep soundly (except for the noise of lorries and drilling...)

:)

Buster the Bear

12th Nov 2005, 18:05

40 in a hour, BLIMEY! What is that sound I hear......is it the TMA creaking?

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/4759/buster4zr.jpg

CAP493

13th Nov 2005, 08:42

I wonder sometimes whether the automated RVR readers have been set for an over cautious reading

The IRVR system at Luton (totally upgraded about 12 months ago) is set to and complies with, the operating criteria and parameters prescribed by the CAA. Routine and ad-hoc calibrations and diagnostics have shown that it continues to operate wholly within those criteria and parameters.

Whilst there's little doubt that on occasions, the readings do appear to be overly pesimistic, this is almost certainly caused by the local topography and due to the fact that the airfield sits on top of a 500 feet high hill creating effectively, a 'micro-climate'.

Following a recent reassessment of Luton's 'low visibility procedures' these are now only invoked at a visibility of 700 metres (it proved impractical to adopt the 'standard' 600 metres owing to the shortened approach lighting on Runway 08 [itself, due to local topography] and the higher minima JAR-OPS therefore, specifies).

What is that sound I hear......is it the TMA creaking?

The northern London TMA already 'creaks' at peak times, not because the guys doing the job aren't up to it or because they're not doing their best, but because the airspace is simply inadequate for the task.

Whilst some improvements were made to the east and northeast of Stansted, the airspace between City/Heathrow and Luton/Stansted has hardly changed in 10 years yet the traffic being generated by City, Luton and Stansted (and also Northolt in response to the Government's policy of 'encourging' civilian corporate aviation there, and the MoD's desire to bring-in much needed revenue) has more than doubled over the same period.

Unfortunately, a few senior 'eyes' were clearly not on the ball and the CAA's ability to respond in a timely fashion to the needs of the industry it regulates is pretty lacklustre anyway with the net result that the airports concerned - and the ATC units/ATCOs involved - are now having to cope with the consequences of a lack of planning and anticipation which has only recently, been acknowledged and so is beginning to be addressed.

40 movements/hour at Luton next year is likely when the traffic 'mix' is approximately 65% to 75% arrivals and this is the probable 2006 scenario - based on initial forecasts - two or three times a day. The problem that will arise is if Luton's departures are simultaneously stopped or significantly delayed because this will very rapidly lead to ground/stand congestion and a 'Full House' situation as the additional stands and extended apronage cannot be constructed without obtaining local authority planning permission and so is not expected to be in place until 2007.

Still, why should airports such as Luton and their associated airspace be treated any differently to the UK's major motorways (have you tried driving on the M4, M25, M27, M42, M62 or M8 during 'rush hour' recently...??)

:hmm: :uhoh: :ouch:

antilla

13th Nov 2005, 10:37

CAP493

Isn't your statement that "the airspace between City/Heathrow and Luton/Stansted has hardly changed in 10 years yet the traffic being generated by City, Luton and Stansted ....... has more than doubled over the same period" rather understated.

Luton's traffic is now FOUR times, and Stansted's is SIX times, what it was. That's somewhat "more than doubled", isn't it?

You then ask "why should airports such as Luton and their associated airspace be treated any differently to the UK's major motorways (have you tried driving on the M4, M25, M27, M42, M62 or M8 during 'rush hour' recently...??)"

Are you serious? Planes stuck in solid nose-to-tail traffic, crawling at snail's pace for miles at a time, or just grinding to a complete standstill? Really? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

You also claim that "a few senior 'eyes' were clearly not on the ball" and that "the CAA's ability to respond in a timely fashion .... is pretty lacklustre anyway".

That's REALLY nice - the airports expand dramatically, and everyone else is to blame for not responding quickly enough and providing the airspace they needed. Isn't it just possible that the airports were a teeny bit irresponsible in expanding so quickly before the necessary aerial infrastructure was available?

King Pong

13th Nov 2005, 14:15

The Category 1 downgrade is exactly as happened at Birmingham some years ago during a major runway resurfacing

So why can't you have Cat 3 when the runway is being resurfaced?

CAP493

13th Nov 2005, 14:49

So why can't you have Cat 3 when the runway is being resurfaced?

Because LLAO is undertaking a major runway lighting upgrade at the same time and during part of the runway overnight closure period, the available lighting won't fully comply with Cat. 2/Cat. 3 spec.

:{

... the airports expand dramatically, and everyone else is to blame for not responding quickly enough and providing the airspace they needed. Isn\'t it just possible that the airports were a teeny bit irresponsible in expanding so quickly before the necessary aerial infrastructure was available?

To quote the illustrious Captain Blackadder: \"Have you visited the Planet Earth recently?\"

City, Luton and Stansted airports are all commercial companies that rely on building up their business to survive and to generate profit. There is no such concept as being \"irresponsible\" - the UK is a deregulated business environment which in theory, enables airports and airlines to develop where and when there is demand for their services.

The \'aerial infrastructure\' cannot be put in place before the need rises because the CAA\'s policy and protocol - dictated by Directive from the DfT - specifically requires an airport to demonstrate a current need. This is the reason why the whole system of airspace and procedure planning in the UK is so badly out of alignment with demand.

My comparison with the UK\'s major motorways was not supposed to be taken as being a serious suggestion, but rather, to make the point that road (and rail...) transport planning in the UK is just as poor and just as short-term.

As for \"...planes stuck in solid nose-to-tail traffic, crawling at snail\'s pace for miles at a time, or just grinding to a complete standstill\" (your words not mine ) this is exactly what is happening on occasions and what will happen even more frequently in the short- to medium-term simply because demand is outstripping capacity and the ability of the CAA (as the Regulator) to respond.

;)

King Pong

13th Nov 2005, 15:31

Cap 493 wroteBecause LLAO is undertaking a major runway lighting upgrade at the same time and during part of the runway overnight closure period, the available lighting won't fully comply with Cat. 2/Cat. 3 spec.

Thanks for the info, you are a mind of information but if the runway lighting is already CAT 3 how can it be upgraded or do you mean replaced?

Cahlibahn

13th Nov 2005, 17:17

Looks like the runway works start tomorrow night!

** NEW ** A2427/05 (AGA) Monday, 14 Nov 2005 23:59 to Tuesday, 28 Feb 2006 04:00

Runway 08/26 WIP. Closed Mon-Sat 0001-0400, available for 10 min period between
0150-0220 for scheduled movments. Cl0sed Sun 0001-0545.
Open trenches will exist 3 m from outside edge of runway shoulders 450MM
wide, 800MM deep during the operating windows.
Locations of open trenches shall be broadcast on luton ATIS,
last departure permitted 2345 hours.

LTNman

13th Nov 2005, 17:55

The Minutes of the September 19th meeting of the LLACC have just been released at http://www.llacc.com/ViewFile.asp?ID=106 The minutes includes the following:

A planning application has gone in for a new helicopter hangar and associated facilities for the Chiltern Air Support Unit at a different location at the airport as the existing facilities are conflicting with other airport operations.

A review of the drop off area and bus/coach pick up points will involve substantial works over the coming months and a decision is still awaited on the EU Funding for the Tracked Transit System Terminal Link with Parkway Station.

CAP493

13th Nov 2005, 19:24

...if the runway lighting is already CAT 3 how can it be upgraded or do you mean replaced?

More modern light fittings, and changes to others.

Whilst the actual runway resurfacing takes place the runway centreline and touchdown zone lights will of course, be disabled as these are flush fittings.

:ok:

King Pong

14th Nov 2005, 19:27

So tonight is the first night of a 9 month programme spread out over the next 12 months that will see Luton’s runway being closed at night. And just when you thought it will all be over in a years time the runway will no doubt be closed again in 2007 as the full length parallel taxiways are dug out and attached to either end of the runway. Not a good time to be operating freight out of Luton?:sad:

OLNEY 1 BRAVO

15th Nov 2005, 08:12

I think some credit needs to be given for the timing of the closures for as far as I can see it is only MNG Cargo with their often erratic timings that are potentially being impacted.

There are not actually that many scheduled cargo services. All of them depart before 24.00 so no problems there.

As for arrivals, well the 04.00 re-opening means that the Emerald Shorts from Kassel is slightly incovenienced, but the DHL 757 normally arrives just before 04.00 and the Atlantic Electra after 04.00 so no problems there.

The DHL flights that used to operate during the early hours of Saturday morning have gone back to Heathrow for the winter so no impact there either.

I'm normally critical of the airport, but I do think some thought has been given here.

Powerjet1

15th Nov 2005, 09:29

Full details of the new Styrian Spirit service starting on 17 Dec is now on LTN's website(pretty quick for them). However, still nothing about BMI's proposed Brussels service ex LTN frm Mar 06. Notice bookings are still being accepted online, but didn't someone say the service would not now be operating. Anyone know anymore.

I already have a ticket in my hands for the service, and have not received anything from BMI, at the moment anyway, to the contrary.

Buster the Bear

15th Nov 2005, 13:41

That ticket might prove to be quite valuable one day if the route never starts!

I wonder how many advance bookings they have taken without even marketing it yet?

It would appear that Luton Relic did indeed get part of his story correct about Air Berlin and Alicante, only the Spanish media said that it was happening from Luton, in reality it was announced today that the route will start from Stansted in direct competition with easyJet.

I think all that warm air has finally got to him!

LTNman

15th Nov 2005, 14:05

I have heard that BMI have yet to confirm the service with the airport

LGS6753

15th Nov 2005, 14:37

From STN the only competitor to ALC is EasyJet, who Air Berlin have been gunning for since EZY opened up at SXF.
If they had started LTN-ALC they would have been up against both EZY and MON, as well as the Ryanair MJV.

So, it's not Air Berlin that's coming, who is it?

Current (Scheduled) destination count is 55 for S06:

Inverness Edinburgh Aberdeen Glasgow Isle of Man
Waterford Knock Shannon Galway Dublin
Jersey Lorient Amsterdam Paris Nice
Nimes Zurich Geneva Basel Grenoble
Bremen Berlin Stockolm/Sk Rome Venice/Tr
Milan/B Cagliari Athens Turin Bratislava
Budapest Klagenfurt Gdansk Warsaw Krakow
Katowice Poznan Barcelona Reus Gerona
Alicante Madrid Palma Mahon Malaga
Gibraltar Murcia Tenerife Faro Lanzarote
Las Palmas Belfast Larnaca Paphos Brussels?

Obvious gaps are:

Guernsey
Lisbon
Bordeaux
Cologne/Dusseldorf
Denmark (Esbjerg or CPH)
Ibiza
Naples
Sicily
Malta
Prague
Baltic States
Sofia

etc.

Wonder how many gaps will be filled?

LTNman

15th Nov 2005, 16:04

Cahlibahn

15th Nov 2005, 18:21

Wouldn't Moscow be an obvious LoCo destination? I flew Wizz to Poznan last week and was impressed with the load factor on both out and return sectors.

Buster the Bear

15th Nov 2005, 21:25

Moscow, not going to happen, airlines are awaiting the 'open skies' policy ahead of Bulgaria and Romania joining the EU, to launch flights.

Until Russia joins the EU, bilateral policy dictates routes and prices to a certain extent.

Sofia and Bucharest are at the extremities of low cost routes, but once the skies are open, my bet is that Wizz will fly to Luton from at least one direct?

Other possible routes from Luton?

Lorient should be the start of more flights to second home owner locations in France

Cork
Sofia
Bucharest
Latvia
Estonia
Almeria
Lisbon
Porto
Malta
Jersey daily
Finland
Newcastle
Derry
Newquay
Munich
Rotterdam
Maastricht
North coast of Spain

The list is endless!

Powerjet1

16th Nov 2005, 10:19

Monarch Sch have released their S06 flights from LTN & LGW today. Surprisingly, no GIB flights ex LTN. Don't know if this is dropped or just not in the system yet.

A note at the end of their press release mentions 'more flights to come'.

GOLF-INDIA BRAVO

16th Nov 2005, 10:42

With all these new routes coming on line
who needs BA

From what I have been told Air Southwest
provide a very good product which appears to be speaking for it`s self.
With FlyBe yet to announce their extra services for 2006 Manchester now has a
very impresive domestic network with only
the northeast of England missing

G-I-B

Powerjet1

16th Nov 2005, 17:44

G I B

Re your last post; was this really meant for this thread ? or did you post in error, i.e. should have been for the Manchester thread. Does not seem relevant to Luton.

Mr @ Spotty M

16th Nov 2005, 18:17

Powerjet1
I was also wondering about the Gib flights, they might be on the way out?
Man has gone to only 4 flights a week for summer 2006, from daily this summer.

andyafc

16th Nov 2005, 19:14

Could see wizz adding wroclaw soon, and also ryanair maybe adding a few new routes? Newcastle would be a welcomed addition from any1 but could see flybe maybe introducing it

nickmanl

16th Nov 2005, 21:36

A couple of months ago Luton - Newcastle appeared on FlyBe's destination map then vanished.

Debonair used to operate the route, I'm not too sure how great it performed though.

LTNman

17th Nov 2005, 05:28

Debonair used to operate the route, I'm not too sure how great it performed though.

Not very well!. Mate of mine used the service and the 146 was nearly empty.

Powerjet1

17th Nov 2005, 05:32

Debonair did operate the LTN-NCL route, but only for about 2 months as loads were poor. True, Flybe were considering the route earlier this year but decided they could make more money elsewhere. Easy probably could make a go of it, like they did to LPL 3/4 years ago, but know there are more profitable routes to be had.

Wroclaw-Luton, by Wizz, is under consideration, and if all goes well, we could see the route start late April/early May.

Powerjet1

17th Nov 2005, 11:07

Mr@Spotty M

I
Received an email this morning from MON stating that GIB ex LTN has not been dropped. It will be available for booking in three weeks.

This route has been daily in the summer and might come in at a reduced schedule for S06. If that happens, we might see the gap filled by a new destination/s which have been rumoured in the past. Can't see MON actually basing another aircraft at LTN but route expansion by 'W's is possible.

OLNEY 1 BRAVO

17th Nov 2005, 11:14

I seem to recall that the Debonair Luton - Newcastle timings were far from practical to allow either a day trip to London or Newcastle.

Further to my recent post on cargo during the runway closures, it looks as if MNG Cargo have decamped to Gatwick. Whether they will get night slots there during the summer is however another matter.

LTNman

17th Nov 2005, 15:27

I see that the first TV series on Luton Airport, which was shown on ITV London and Sky Travel via freeview and satellite, was so popular that a second series is now being filmed.

No doubt fascinating highlights will include the resurfacing of the runway and delays to passengers due to fog when the airport goes CAT 1 for 6 months. Other enthralling highlights could include the painting of hangar 89 in a nice shade of orange and the changing of the road layout in the central area.

Who needs Coronation Street when we have this captivating series?
:confused:

vintage ATCO

17th Nov 2005, 21:52

No doubt fascinating highlights will include the resurfacing of the runway and delays to passengers due to fog when the airport goes CAT 1 for 6 months.

What would you suggest, LTNman, to prevent the airport going Cat 1 when the runway is necessarily re-surfaced, being such an expert?

CAP493

17th Nov 2005, 22:34

...and delays to passengers due to fog when the airport goes CAT 1 for 6 months.

FYI, the reversion to Cat 1 will not last for the full period of runway overnight resurfacing work because the lighting installation will hopefully be complete in around 4 months.

Whilst it is undoubtedly a situation that LLAO would wish to avoid, there is no alternative.

Stansted was Cat 1 during runway resurfacing, as was Birmingham and of course, Gatwick doesn't even manage Cat 1 on 26R/08L (the 'Northern' runway) albeit, none have been Cat 1 for four or more months.

Then there's Southampton (uncategorised and only x 1 ILS), City (uncategorised), Aberdeen (Cat 1) etc., etc.

If LTNman, you have any constructive suggestions as to how a runway that's 10 years overdue for resurfacing, can retain Cat 3 throughout a period of such major works, no doubt LLAO would pay well for the benefit of your expert opinion...

:hmm: :uhoh: :{

LTNman

18th Nov 2005, 06:21

I wasn’t criticising the airport for going CAT1, as you say the work needs to be carried out, I was just stating a fact. :confused:

Can someone answer a question? As I understand it, the problem is that the CAT 3 lighting that is set into the tarmac will be switched off for the duration, as it will be changed out. I assume that the work will start at one end of the runway and progress slowly down the runway. Initially during the first few weeks and for the last few weeks when the work is at the end of the runway could not the lighting be isolated allowing the majority of the centre line lighting to remain working so allowing CAT 3 approaches from the opposite end. Can CAT 3 approaches be made on a reduced runway length?

I appreciate the lighting changes colour towards the end of the runway so maybe I have answered my own question as to why the answer is no

Powerjet1

18th Nov 2005, 08:33

MON have now got GIB back on sale for S06, with a daily service. This seems to give MON Sch 39 weekly departures from LTN from May with hopefully more to come in the next few weeks.

Buster the Bear

18th Nov 2005, 21:01

I am not very good with numbers, so are 39 weekly departures (so far), more, less or the same as Summer 05 powerjet1?

I nearly choked on my fish and honey tonight. BBC Look East, had a lady complaining about loud night movements and she moved into Breachwood Green 25 years ago. She has now decided to complain.

I guess that the wonders of modern medicine have amazingly brought back her hearing, for the numbers of actual passenger/cargo flight for summer 05, must have been quite low compared to 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990.........etc?

Then my fur bristled, they had an interview with a Lilly MP, who wanted night noise comparity with the London BAA airports, so does his comparity extend to cross London airport subsidies?

How did this story make the lead report on prime time BBC local networked news? Heathrow has a night jet ban, but the times of this argument included the traffic generated for re-opening period from 05:00 until 06:00! If the organisers of this media blitz had cared to think, removing the 05:00 arrivals from the figures, so terminating the night time period at 05:00, would have made Luton look really LOUD from 23:00 to 05:00 compared to Heathrow.

Old woman got awoken by a plane at night then cannot sleep. "I have lived here for 25 years" she said!

Are Ryanair doing crew training on a ghost B737-200?

What is this 'old gal' going to make of the night closure!

LADACAN have probably popped off to the pub to celebrate a huge victory. Unfortunately their amazing trick to get onto TV worked, however the substance of their argument was farcical!

Never mind, they have an old and fading MP to back them.

I still cannot believe that this non news story made the lead on the BBC! Shame on you for not doing your home work Look East!

Powerjet1

18th Nov 2005, 21:13

Buster

S05 saw 34 weekly departures by MON Sch, so an increase of about 15% for S06, although this is expected to rise in the next few weeks when two more new destinations are expected to be announced. No idea of freq, though def not daily.

Buster the Bear

18th Nov 2005, 21:34

Tenerife daily (2 on Friday) surprised me!

Powerjet1

19th Nov 2005, 06:10

Me too. Started this month and continuing into the summer. Despite the extra three weekly AGP flights being put on hold, MON still have 37 deps this winter, about 25% up on last year.

AGP will see nearly 50 weekly sch flights out of LTN next summer spread around the various airlines. Hope they get enough pax to fill them.

CAP493

19th Nov 2005, 07:40

...they had an interview with a Lilly MP, who wanted night noise comparity with the London BAA airports

Correction, you should have said "...who wanted night noise comparity with the London BAA airports because he figures this will bring in several hundred more votes for him at the next election".

As to residents that have been living locally for a quarter-of-a-century, they obviously are suffering from advancing age because presumably, they cannot remember the semi-continuous night-time movements at Luton in the early 1980s involving non-hushkitted aircraft such as the BAC1-11 and B737-200. Now THAT'S NOISY!!!

Why therefore, would at that time, any sane person choose to move to Breachwood Green...???

As for LADACAN - it would be nice to say "the facts speak for themselves" but regrettably, most of LADACAN's 'facts' are inaccurate and subjective rumour and tittle-tattle expressed by self-appointed 'experts'.

:rolleyes:

ebenezer

19th Nov 2005, 07:59

Looks like part of LLAO's interim development plan will be to provide taxiways all the way to the (existing) runway ends.

If correct (and if planning permission is granted) this will have three operational benefits:

1. Departing crew will be able to apply a lower factoring percentage in respect of the published take-off runs because the aircraft will actually line-up at the start of each run (the best scenario is a line-up into the beginning of the take-off run [e.g. MAN Runway 24L via Taxiway Sierra & LGW Runway 08R via Taxiway Juliet] because there's no factoring required). This should slightly improve payload/range potential.

2. ATC at Luton will in theory, be able to depart aircraft at one-minute intervals, subject to vortex-wake and departure (route) separations (this is currently, only permitted from Runway 08 but the opportunities are relatively few). This should mean aircraft holding at the holding points for less time which is more efficient.

3. Luton Radar at West Drayton will be able to position landing aircraft at 3 miles apart (subejct to vortex wake separation), because the aircraft will all be able to clear the runway by rolling to either end after landing, instead of having to backtrack if they miss the existing taxiway turn-offs.

The overall effect should be to increase slightly, the declared hourly movement rate from the current 32 an hour but more importantly, it will enable LTN to run continuously at 32 movements an hour without any major difficulties.

Tentative date for completion (subject to planning permission) is Autumn, 2007.

:ok:

OLNEY 1 BRAVO

22nd Nov 2005, 08:17

Now before anyone shouts at me, I know that when work in progress is scheduled resulting in runway closures, the start of the closure period needs to be applied fairly rigourously otherwise completion of the work will not be achieved on schedule.

Nevertheless I found it difficult to comprehend the thinking behind a conversation I heard last night between a Ryanair aircraft and Luton Air Traffic. I must add at this juncture that Air Traffic made it quite clear that they were acting at the behest of "the airport authority" and that it was not them trying to be unreasonable.

So .. picture the scene. It's 23.55 and a Ryanair 737 is about 30 miles from touchdown and working approach. Luton is in LVP's with a touchdown RVR of 225m. Approach tell the aircraft that if it is not on the ground by 24.00 it will be given instructions to go around. The aircraft is also told that as Luton is in LVP's it must have a minimum of a 10 mile final - fair enough.

The aircraft says that in view of the extended finals it may not land until 00.01 to which it is told once more that it will be told to go around if it can't make 24.00 .. even if it is on short finals.

In the end, there was not a problem as the contractors appeared not to be ready to take possession on the stroke of 00.01 and the aircraft was therefore allowed to land.

Now given that the 24.00 closure is down to the airport's work programme and not due to noise restrictions, is allowing an aircraft 1 or 2 minutes leeway going to cause the work programme to slip that much ... I think not.

Is this attitude with absolutely no flexibility also going to endear Luton to airlines that the airport wish to attract .. particularly Ryanair where the airport wants to see more aircraft based.

Finally, and most importantly, is it appropriate for such situations to be allowed to occur when weather conditions are on minimums thus placing additional stress on crews? to me it seems totally unreasonable.

busters brother

22nd Nov 2005, 09:57

I am late with the start of this thread due to computer problems. Surely some of the new development plans go back to the Snow report of the late sixties, when a new runway and terminal were to be built to the south of the the existing runway and a rail link from Chilten Green station (near East Hyde). Surely thats progress. Also at the same time a north/south runway was proposed, if I am not mistaken this would have gone over Ltn Mans house, what he be saying then.
With respect to the runway repairs they are long overdew. The last time I was on the runway (about a year ago) it looked like a patch-work quilt. When they change the runway lighting I hope they do something with the centre line lighting cables so they do not keep coming out. Does anybody knows if
the relic ( Lagan 47) is doing the R/T work for the contractors.
My brother, Buster the Bear mentioned a few threads ago that the handling agents were going to do there own marshalling that would be a great shame to see the Rovers go, but a night-mare it will be for the Air Traffic Controllers, it was bad enough when airport lost Apron Control.
If Luton is to move forward it has to have a proper Airfield Operations Section and to bring back the information desk.
.

King Pong

23rd Nov 2005, 02:48

Now given that the 24.00 closure is down to the airport's work programme and not due to noise restrictions, is allowing an aircraft 1 or 2 minutes leeway going to cause the work programme to slip that much ... I think not.

Is this attitude with absolutely no flexibility also going to endear Luton to airlines that the airport wish to attract .. particularly Ryanair where the airport wants to see more aircraft based.

Maybe someone at Luton has received the Ryanair treatment at check-in and got to the front of the queue at a minute past closing time.

Anyway this time next year the airport will be Cat 1. If the repairs where being done this year nothing would have got in for much of the evening and looking out of the window now nor the following morning. Oh there will be some fun and games next year!

Does anybody knows if the relic ( Lagan 47) is doing the R/T work for the contractors

I hear he has woman troubles in Spain and might be returning to the UK as he needs some vortex wake separation

Powerjet1

23rd Nov 2005, 06:23

Noticed in the FT re report on easy's profit yesterday, that expansion was slowing from 21% last year, to 15% in the current year.

Three aircraft to be based at the new Malpensa base, with an additional single based aircraft at LTN, LGW, DTM, BSL, SXF, & GVA during the current financial year, with growth being more concentrated in europe than the uk.

nickmanl

23rd Nov 2005, 12:46

Does anyone know anything more about the proposed Tara airlines? Are they still around or have they fallen away?

airportman

23rd Nov 2005, 13:19

yet again rumour without substance.

The airport allowed the Ryanair to land in line with talks with base operators which had taken place months before the works commenced. An aircraft on finals would always be allowed to land.

It was nothing to do with contractors no being ready.

Buster the Bear

23rd Nov 2005, 15:11

airportman, having consulted with a' man in the know', OLNEY 1 BRAVO VERY accurately describes the events.

It looks like a possible change of course since Mr RAC arrived in easyLand? Good news though! We will see if it happens unlike the promise made by the outgoing boss!

OLNEY 1 BRAVO

23rd Nov 2005, 16:13

Thank you Buster for that stout defence!

airportman - what I reported was not a rumour ... I heard it with my own ears. Despite the late hour I can assure you I was not dreaming!!

Interestingly, a little more flexibility was shown to the same flight last night with no pressure put on the crew to land as soon as possible.

Buster the Bear

23rd Nov 2005, 21:09

I am a poor orphaned brown bear, who purports to be my brother?

BMI's web site still says the Brussels route starts March 27th.

LTNman

24th Nov 2005, 04:44

It might say that but BMI are still not committed to the service yet although a decision is imminent.

On the positive side easyjet are to base another aircraft at Luton next year bringing their total to I think 16 and it is looking likely that Styrian Spirit will stay at Luton next summer.

I see that the arrivals area is nearly finished. A new café, which has been under construction for weeks is going to be opened for waiting meeters and greeters before Christmas and the waiting area is about to get a little bigger:ok:

CAP493

24th Nov 2005, 06:24

It's worth pointing out that runway closures/openings for any reason incl. maintenance work, de-icing, snow clearance and emergency repairs are nothing whatsoever to do with ATC i.e. NATS but (as at any BAA airport) entirely a matter for LLAO. The LLAO Duty Airport Manager is the responsible authority and if any delay to a runway closure is requested by an operator it's most definitely not within ATC's "gift" to approve or decline that request which would merely be relayed to LLAO.

That said, LLAO is usually as flexible as it can be and normally, +/- 5 minutes isn't a major problem.

As regards the 'extended final' for an aircraft landing in LVP i.e. undertaking a Cat 3 approach, this is a safety requirement for ATC to ensure that the aircraft flies a stable approach and any responsible airline/flight crew would not IMHO wish to fly anything less than an 8 to 10 mile final if carrying out an autoland in LVPs (assuming that the airline's Ops Manual would allow this anyway...).

:8