Use of Radio Navaids

[2close]

I'm hoping you may be able to help me here.

At airports outside CAS with no Approach Control, merely an A/G service, what is the score with using airport based NDBs, etc. for IMC Approach procedure training purposes, e.g. Holding, unofficial NDB approachs, etc. ?

Iwas told by one controller that it is a big No-No and that these NDBs must only be used for en-route navigation purposes but am looking for hard confirmation, preferably a reference, if possible.

Could log book entries showing such usage affect an application for an IMC Rating?

I'd appreciate any assistance.

Cheers,

2close

[renard]

Speaking as a pilot, if the A/G operator gives you permission to fly in his zone and you give position reports, I can't see what is wrong with using an airfield beacon.

What you should never do is use one of the "un-official" approach procedures in IMC conditions.

So far an IMC application is concerned, I did all of my NDB holding training around the radio transmitter for KFI am in Los Angeles and never had any queries about it from the CAA.

[keithl]

I'm willing to have a go at answering this one, 2close, but need a bit more info. You say your airport has no Approach control, only A/G. Just confirm no Tower controller either? So, presumably there can be no official approach procedure from the NDB. Also, are we talking UK here, or somewhere else?

Pending the answers to these questions, let me just say that if you are practicing these IMC procedures, who is doing the lookout? Because you don't have even Procedural separation if you're not on an official procedure or hold. You are still VFR.

[30W]

2Close,

All formal IFR approach procedures in the UK have to be approved by the CAA. This ensures the necessary ICAO criteria regrading terrain and obstacle clearance are ensured. Operating minima are agreed, and navaid power supply/maintainance and NOTAM issues are complied with.

If it is an APPROVED procedure, then it and it's applicable let down chart will be within the AIP. If it is not then quite simply there is NO approval for the approach you intend, and you are fully responsible for your actions......

Points of interest I would make however:-

1. If your training flight was conducted at all times in VMC, and you had normal unimpaired visual conditions (ie no IMC screens all over the windows etc), then certainly it wouldn't be unsafe to use for training purposes.

2. Anything other than the above would be highly unwise, unsafe, and very poor training. How could a student be expected to respect and follow PROPER procdures and protocol if training methods don't.

3. Ensure that the A/G facility of the place you are using are happy. You are going to use their ATZ, so keep them fully in the picture and ensure they are happy with what you want to do.

Good luck.....

30W

[Spitoon]

At the moment it is not illegal to use any old NDB for let down in any circumstances. There was a time when the AIP had a warning that said "Not to be used for instrument approaches" for many beacons although that doesn't seem to happen any more.

I guess that if you are VFR and comply with all of the visual flight rules, including keeping a look out, then it's OK.

If you're IFR and you comply with all of the instrument flight rules, including the minimum height rule, then it's OK.

Bear in mind that the A/G person cannot give permission for anything and, if I recall correctly, you probably need to get the permission of the person in charge of the airport to fly in the ATZ. So I guess if you do that it's OK.

But is it sensible.......? I'd be very wary about flying around an uncontrolled airport without keeping a very good look out and if you're flying on instruments that's not easy.

But all this looks like it's going to change soon anyway. The CAA is planning to introduce more rules (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/DAP_BM_Partial_IAP_RIA.pdf) - just take a look at the first paragraph of the new ANO article in Annex A.

[2close]

Many thanks for the replies. They've been of great help.

One more question.

Reg 40 of Rules of the Air states:

(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the commander of an aircraft shall not make use of any radio navigation aid without complying with such restrictions and appropriate procedures as may be notified in relation to that aid unless authorised by an air traffic control unit.

Maybe this is what my original information referred to.

Where could I find out restrictions and appropriate procedures for specific UK NDBs?

Cheers, again.

2close

[NorthSouth]

2close:Where could I find out restrictions and appropriate procedures for specific UK NDBs?The AIP - ENR 4.1 has the details of en route NDBs (not very many these days) and the ones at licensed aerodromes are in the relevant part of the AD section of the AIP. You should also check NOTAMs for any temp unserviceabilities etc.

As regards the rest of this thread, there are plenty reputable training schools in the UK using unofficial IAPs on a regular basis for training purposes. I don't see a problem with it as long as (a) you're speaking to the relevant people, (b) you're either maintaining VMC or you don't descend below MSA in IMC and (c) if you have screens up or foggles on you have a safety pilot as required by the Rules of the Air.

NS