An interesting flight yesterday

[RW-1]

I had a blast yesterday!

I returned to the air now that we have birds at our FBO, and went out to a remote set of strips to work on just flying again, and maneuvers.

What I wanted to share was two mistakes made during that flight, and the lessons from them, as they were the kind that are educational.

First straight in auto I did was perfect, up to just after the flare, unfortunatlely I may have pulled to zealously on collective for this first one, and somehow we ended up at 10 feet with Nr low. really low.

Basically from that location I (and Mike, who was monitoring me) knew all we could do at that point was to allow it to settle, so in effect I have performed my first full down autorotation, I had not even brought in power, as it wouldn't have made any difference, rolled into detent to use collective at the end, however it was more of holding what I had, as pulling wouldn't have made a difference either.

I know it sounds worse than it was, we touched down and didn't even bounce, mike said if I had done that for my CFI ride it would have been a passer :)

I only bring it up as i know over there you guys do it to full touchdown, and we had that discussion, so at least I have joined the club, if not intentionally!

The other was when we finally (I didn't want to go back) had to leave and go back, I thought a max perf takeoff would be a fitting way to depart for home plate.

I got first hand knowledge of rotor droop hehe ...

I was fine, but near the top as I was bringing in the last inch of collective, I must have jerked to collective, and of course it drooped and we got light/horn. no big deal, reduced and rolled on throttle just in case the gov wasn't on it, and continued the takeoff. But it was a nice "lesson" to see, real world so to speak.

Guy, another inst belives I may have had a tight grip on the throttle, which may when I reached near full collective would make my hand rotate a bit, perhaps preventing the gov from adding at that point. we plan on looking at that later, but in any case, the flight was terrific, doing confined area landings, the other gamut of maneuvers, etc.

Being alone at the strip kept the pattern tight too, to get more in, doing circuits at 300ft, except for when setting up for the auto's of course, a very nice time!

Mike also decided we had done enough for it to qualify for my flight portion of my BFR, so now all I need do is 1 hr of ground later next week, so I'm back in currency.

I hope everyone else had a good day.

[Geronimo 33]

Students learning with governors....what is this world coming to? No touchdown autorotations? I can turn my head at the governor thing...but no touchdown autorotations....the very essence of single engine helicopter flying? There is a topic that will generate an intense amount of discussion....why we should not practice touchdown autorotations during ab-initio training?

[Rotorbike]

INSURANCE

[RW-1]

Hi G,

Thanks again for the email :)

Primary reason they won't do it here in the States is insurance and the liability issues.

On the side however I have done flights without the Gov, in fact my very first robbie dual was before the governor's were made for it. I can go either way on that topic.

Cheers!

[StevieTerrier]

I think its generally accepted that if you can perform a satisfactory power recovery at the end of your simulated engine failure, you have a decent chance of getting away with a real one. After all, from that point on its only a hovering / hover taxiing auto or a run-on landing, and you (should) get plenty of practice of those during your training.

Why take the chance of bending a perfectly good aircraft? The risks outweigh the benefits.

[RW-1]

Hi ST!

Rotorheads had discussed this before on the board.

While I agree with you and look at the flare/recovery being similar to a hovering auto or run on landing, and that likely it may be pulled off, I'd also like to say the opponents have a valid point.
In the power recoveries, we add pedal to balance the power coming in, etc. For the full down, it would not be needed, or certainly less that what is applied for a power recovery.

Certainly if all I have done is straight ins / 180's to recovery, the question posed is will I respond by rote in the real thing (full down) and make the those movements?

At that time I couldn't answer that, and still feel I would be making that decision when it happens.

After Thursday though, I have no trepidation in doing them if I had to, of course I would need more dual on it :D

[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: RW-1 ]

[Gaseous]

When I was training for PPL in June this year I spent my last 1.1 hours (Dual!) before the GFT doing full EOLs to the ground. "Climb to 500 ft and do it again" he kept saying. I can't remember how many I did, maybe 10 or more, but I started to quite like it. The fear of the rotor horn diminished to healthy respect. Some landings were damned bumpy. Incidently, the collective was lowered before cutting the throttle as one would expect. In a real emergency with the reverse situation, just how long does one get to lower the lever after the engine cuts assuming you are pulling real power? (in a R22). We didn't try that one.

He also used to switch off the governor to make me "sweat for a while"

Is this not normal for PPL training?

Incidently I now hire his machine so he knows I stand a chance if it goes quiet.

[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Gaseous ]

[Vfrpilotpb]

Hi Gaseous
In the old R22 (or a Young R22) you have very little time to dump the lever if things go quiet, if the engine seized it would possible do so with a bang, but there could be the problem of a gradual seizure which would also mean a gradual and very quiet run down of actual power and Rotor revs, hence the reason for being fully alert and a quick reaction with your left hand and if the donkey quit's dont worry about rolling the throttle shut, GET THE LEVER DOWN, and please get into the habit of flying higher than 500Ft when I was a student the Cfi would only work autos from a Min of 1500ft, although I agree that you should be able to do it from any alt in practice,( by the way practice this at least every 6 wks or 2 months) for you need to stay sharp on it, Where in Good Ole Lanky do you fly from?
My Regards

[Gaseous]

VFR,

I trained at Blackpool and the autos were done on area Bravo there. The ATC clearance was, as it usually is, "not above 600 feet".Hence 500 ft eols. Also you get more autos per hour if you dont waste time climbing to 1500. Also it all happens pretty quick from 500 and I suppose the FI's reasoning was if you can do it from 500ft then you can do it from more. I do generally fly a tad more than 500. I hope the engine keeps going.

[The Nr Fairy]

Generally, Robinson talk about 1.1 seconds in the cruise to react after an engine failure. After that, blades tend to vlap hands with messy consequences.

Lesson - DON'T take your hand off the collective during critical phases of flight, and for the shortest time possible at other times.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Gaseous,
Snap, did all mine in Bravo and H south, plus pilling sands to recovery!
Cya sometime.

[Gaseous]

Nr Fairy,
Thanks but that wasn't terribly reassuring, so I decided to see what I could find. This was in an aaib report.

In flight at 90 kt, 500 ft agl, the R22 needs 90 HP to maintain airspeed and altitude. If, in the event of an engine failure, the pilot maintains forward cyclic and up collective, the rotor rpm will reduce to an irrecoverable value in 1.1 seconds. In the climb at 60 kt, rate of climb 1,000 fpm, the total power required is 103 HP, the time would reduce to less than 1 second.


Yikes... see what you mean about concentrating.

Maybe the big issue is not contact with the ground at the end of a practice auto, but what happens at the beginning.

[ 06 December 2001: Message edited by: Gaseous ]

[vorticey]

gday rw-1 you said
>I was fine, but near the top as I was bringing in the last inch of collective, I must have jerked to collective, and of course it drooped and we got light/horn. no big deal, reduced and rolled on throttle just in case the gov wasn't on it, and continued the takeoff. But it was a nice "lesson" to see, real world so to speak.

when i practiced we had max power apllied from the ground not as your going over the top, otherwise its not a true max performanceTO. and just one thing on the govener, it must be your grip because even at maximum power youve still got power to spare and rrpm will not go down. try to find a old thread about the tail being chopped off before tackoff due to throttle grip. i think it was under a.r.n. headsets a while back.

[RW-1]

vorticy,

The climbout did start from the ground;

Guv off. Mag check. Gov back on.

Coll increased at a steady pace, we lifted off at 22 inches that day, adjusted attitude slightly to begin forward movement into ETL.
continued bringing in the power ... then I must have brought in the last inch of coll too quickly ...

[t'aint natural]

I don't think any of us would recover from a sudden and complete engine failure in an R22 under normal circumstances, full stop. One second is too short a time. If you were established in a descent you might have a bit of a chance, but otherwise, I think we're kidding ourselves. If and when it happens to me, and I find I've managed to establish an autorotation, I'm going to be a very happy bunny indeed. The touchdown is a matter of little concern. If you're off-airfield the best pilot in the world would probably roll it 50 percent of the time. But even if you just have a stab at the flare you'll probably get away with your life. Worry about that first second. Should we be practising throttle chops instead of touchdown autos?

[Vfrpilotpb]

TN,
I have troubled myself long and hard about how quickley I could react on a full engine out at take of just before transistional lift into true flight, and have found that I tend to get going as fast as poss as quick as poss to transistion, and despite asking questions of very experienced pilots they all say the same," a lot down to very rapid reaction, and a tad of luck" , but no one will allow any sort of practice for this scenario( they say too risky) so I feel that your comments are about bang on!

[thjakits]

Hi guys,

a little note to the R-22:

If you do it(autorotation) right you will have at least 2-3 seconds before the collective has to be down (asuming you are doing around 75-85 kts, level... when the s**t hits the fan)

The detail on the whole thing is exactly the 90 something horses the R-22 needs to keep its rotor going. It will have no sinkrate initially so there is no trading of altitude for power, all you can do is haul back a little (or a little lot if you are slow...) on the cyclic and trade some speed for power!! That´s what keeps the rotor rpm up (actually you do that too pronounced and you will get high rotor rpm!)

Certainly you need some speed to do that, however you always can recover speed by lowering the nose some 15-20 degrees and you should be back at 60 kts in less than 200ft.

Now, you should not get caught engine out at less then 30 kts and 200ft, most likely it will hurt.

(This did not grow on my gray cells, but is rather essential info from the Robinson Safety Course and normally gets demoed by the Course Instructor) However it is verified and works just fine (I always have to try things out....!).

I see quite a few students (even hightime heavy iron drivers) that make the mistake to slam the collective down and then PUSH THE NOSE DOWN TO "KEEP UP THE SPEED" - then they wonder why the rotor rpm goes low....

try it little by little:

a) close the throttle
b) start a little flair (something like in a moderate quickstop)
c) simultaneously lower the collective - do not slam
d) stabilize autorotation: rpm right at 100%,speed at 60-65 kts
e) once established do not move the collective any more until ready to flair, no need to move it.
Small rpm changes are mostly due to speedchanges, as soon as you stop going faster and slower the rpm will stabilize again. Chasing the rpm only wreckes your nerves - so do not jerk the collective up and down - smooth movements, please....
Remember that you also can control some rpm by changing your speed: accelerate - lose some rpm, slow down - gain rpm....( 180´s can teach you a lesson there: Everyone remebers the talk how rpm comes up in the turn - centrifugal force,g-loads, vectors, gremlins, Santa Claus......blablabla it all boils down to speed control, keep your 60 kts through the turn and the rpm will move less than 4%.......tested.....!)

Fullstop touchdown autos in a R-22 will only happen okay with less then 1/3 fuel, light occupants and at least 15-18 kts of headwinds...tested.....!

Flying without governor: Just watch your rpm until you have 18" on the manifoldp. - then the correlator works fine, just glance at the rpm indicator a bit more often and ...relax and enjoy!!

Fly safe,
3top :cool:

[t'aint natural]

3top:

Try a throttle chop in the climb at max power and 60 knots. I've done this with a trusted high-time colleague, and believe me you'll be very impressed at how rapidly RRPM decay. It's like pulling the rotor brake on. Even when you're expecting it and you're wound up like a coiled spring to react, you're unlikely to stop the drop before 90 percent. If you're not wound up like a coiled spring in the climb, it's goodnight nurse.

[baranfin]

Im not sure if your already doing this but one of the little things that help me when I get chopped is the yaw. When I feel that nose swing the collective comes down and I establish a glide. That would especially help in the full power climb, with all that torque. We should also probably be most alert during our climb out anyways, thats when we would be in the most trouble if anything went wrong. As for the flare and final touchdown, I would be very happy if I just survived. Just a thought.

P.S. I only have about 70hrs so I am not claiming to be the final authority on this. Never even done a full down yet.

[thjakits]

hi t´natural,

max power, 60kts, with 2people is interesting, roll into some bank 30-45 deg that will give you some loading of the rotor and you still can pull a little trade speed for rpm, but you are right rpm probably will get close to 90% everytime....tested. But remember 90% is just the bottom of the green. I even teach students how to fly with 90% and without governor, no big deal, just have to be vigilant (No showing off here this is in accord with the factory training manual). This is to show that the R-22 will not quit flying at 90%, hell it even will climb there quit nicely. The problem is to stay focused on the machine.
Compare it to any other helicopter: The decent rate of a Robinson (either one...)in an auto tends to be rather less then any other helicopter!!

Don´t try this if you are not really on top of the machine, but if you are solo, speed down the runway and when you get to 90 kts you start to pull up very gently and hold back until you get to 55kts all while you smoothly pull to max power - you will be going up at somewhere over 2000 ft/min for a short while.....tested..., just don´t ask what would happen if the engine quit and you are in a 55kt climb at 2000+ft/min. All that inertia going up will take for ever to just start to go down....not tested (and no intentions to..)!!

baranfin:

Don´t worry to much about the full touch down. If you keep on going for the commercial or fly regular with your privat ticket you will get to the point where you grab a good instructor and get some fulltouchd.
It will, most of the time, be like a fast running landing, just don´t pull back on touching or you leapfrog....
If you get into the auto and establish it you will survive if you keep your speed all the way down. You will do something when you get down: Adrenalin permiting you run it on and roll it or stall it at 10 feet or bend the gear straight out, whatever, remember in a real one all that counts that you and your pax walk. JUST get into the auto and you will go down anywhere from 1300-1800 ft/min....you don´t get into the auto you probably going to brake the soundbarrier - considering how aerodynamic the R-22 is!! (Altitude permitting.....)

In training it is actually a lot harder. You do not want to bend anything (although it happens..), you want to fly the machine again and again so there is a lot more stress not to scratch the baby.....
As I said, enjoy flying and sooner or later you get to do fulltouchdowns.

Fly safe,

3top :cool:

[thjakits]

another one to t´natural:

don´t worry to much about the R-22. Big iron would lose rpm just a very little bit slower than the R-22 if you are in max power climb at 60 if you do not do the right thing immediately......tested...

3top :cool:

[paulgibson]

Is it not in the syllabus that touchdown auto's are conducted in the US?

Coming to think of it I dont know that it is here either but the good schools seem to all do them without any problems....

just a query

[baranfin]

I know touchdowns are not required on for the Private check ride in the US, but at our school the chief flight instructor will demo a couple for students towards the end of their training. This is also probably for ins. reasons, for instance, only 2 ships are allowed to do hovering autos and only 1 is approved for fulldowns.

[ 13 December 2001: Message edited by: baranfin ]

[t'aint natural]

3top: I'm not so sure about the big iron. I've done full-down autos in a 206 from 300 feet, out of a 500 fpm rate of climb at 30 knots, and zero-zeroed every time. Try that in a 22 and you'd make a small smoking hole. I love blade inertia.

[paulgibson]

barafin
the school i trained with would not let you go solo without having done many successful touchdown auto's. unless the ROD got excessive or the student really botched it up, all auto's were down to the ground so it interesting that not all schools do likewise.

[Heli-Ice]

Hello people.

Well I trained, and now I'm flying in Iceland and here we do full touch down auto's throughout our training. The chief flight instructor, at where I trained, insists that we do them before going solo and before taking the flight tests for any kind of pilot licenses.

Here we use the H300C for training and it is very forgiving. It has some more blade inertia than the R22 not to mention the shock absorbers, they add flexibility to yourlandings.

It came to my surprise when I found out that many other schools out in the big world never teach full touch down auto's.

However I think StevieTerrier has a lot to say in his post.

I personally like the following: "Why take the chance of bending a perfectly good aircraft? The risks outweigh the benefits."

Insurance is a BIG factor when it comes to this matter but if you are going to become a professional helicopter pilot why shouldn't you have had sufficient training in these kind of emergencies?

I have a little message for you who are still in training, don't do any of the serious stuff when you're flying solo, enjoy the freedom that the helicopter brings you. Your CFI will give enough hard time later. ;)

Stay on top of things.

[thjakits]

Hi T´Natural:

You are right about the inertia of a 206 and we all know that is just about impossible to zero-zero a R-22 without a lot of wind.
I will try the 500 climb 30 kt chop, but I will start to try it at 600ft, just to see.....

In our school we teach fulltouch at the end of the commercial course.
thouse of you who know the R-22 know that it takes quite a while to master the fulltouchautos. No need to bend the baby before the student gets it to a good power recovery EVERYTIME!
However to the end of the privat course we demo a couple fulltouches.

For the solo we care mostly that the student will go into an auto at all if neccessary....
Once in there he safed his bacon half the way already!!

3top :) :)

[t'aint natural]

3top: I'm not sure you should try the 30kt auto, even from 600 feet, and especially at 500 fpm rate of climb, in the R22. If there are no further posts here, I'll know you've tried it.
The 90 per cent gives a good margin for error, but what troubles me most is the rate at which the needles were heading south when they crossed the line. I had an old instructor, now dead of natural causes, who had 17,000 hours' rotary going back to 1948, who once took the Nr down to 83 per cent in the cruise in an R22 and commented helpfully that he "didn't think it was ready to quit yet". I didn't fly with him again after that.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Hi good morning TN,

Last year I flew with a mega hi time ex RAF, CFI who flew me in a R22 down to 84% to show me that you would have to be mentally asleep to miss the warnings, to say that I enjoyed that, would be a tad wrong, but it does prove something, dont it?
PeterB :eek:

[t'aint natural]

Peter: I dunno, I don't think it's very bright to deliberately erode the margins to such a degree. Maybe we're wrong in even posting this here... some hot dog might try to get it even lower.

[thjakits]

Hi guys,
Still alive, did not try it yet, but I will:

If you deliberately try it you should be prepared - anyway I am not dumb enough to do the real thing at once. I will split the needles and keep the engine rpm near, once it works and I can get it all the way into a stable auto I will let you know....

To the postings: I hope there are no real dumb people reading PPRUNE. Besides nobody is asking or forcing anyone to do things.

To the low rpm cruise stories: It seems to be a high timer problem. I had an examiner!!! do a checkride in a R-44 demonstrating 75% !!!! rpm-cruise. The gentleman was sternly advised to never do any low rpm checks at all anymore.

These stupid things come from people who probably have thousands of hours in Bells and got to fly helicopters rather by luck and/or influence and luckily survived long enough to get hightime. Ask them something rather specific about helicopter theory or aerodynamics and you might get excuses, because they never knew in the first place. I do not want to bash hightimers in general, there a lots of hightimers around that know their stuff including the theory, but there are black sheep in every profession.

The low rpm-stuff comes most likely after attending a Robinson factory safety course. Of course they will try to eliminate the myth, that a Robbie will fall out of the sky once you hear the low rpm warning and that it takes only 1/1000 sec to get there (Well, most higher time R-drivers know that this is not true anyway...).
Part of the demonstration is a flight at 90% rpm and you stay there for about 5 min and do gentle maneuvers: climbs, turns ,descents.
This is to show, that there is no hurry to get back up to 102%.

At a different time with low fuel levels, over a hard surface, little to no wind, the safety course instructor will hover a R-44 at 75% or a R-22 at 80% about a foot high. However, this is to demonstrate the HIGH EFFICIECY AND CONTROL RESERVES OF THE TAILROTOR. (There are no quarterly tailwind restrictions on either Robinson, as for example on a Bell 206).
Generally I am very glad they demonstrate these things, as they are very confidence inspiring. However they had to abandon to demo low g recovery as some overconfident instructors would start to kill themselves and their students. I consider myself lucky to still have received a demo long after they generally quit that. However I DO NOT SHOW students low g recoverys nor low rpm hovers. What we do is 90% cruise and low rpm recovery from there. The low g recovery gets practised much like retreading bladestall - you go thru the moves without actually going to the point (retreading bs or low g)(Actually I believe we were told at the safety course that the R-22 was impossible to get into reatreating blade stall ( The factory test pilot for the R-22 should know it..)for it lacks the power to get to the necessary speed - and thing runs 102 kts tops!!

IF THERE ARE ANY LOW TIME R-22 OR R-44 PILOTS READING THIS:


IF YOU EVER GET IN THE SITUATION THAT ANYBODY - EXAMINER, INSTRUCTOR, HIGHTIMER OR JUST A PLAIN EVERYDAY GUY - IS IN COMMAND OF A ROBINSON WITH YOU ON THE SIDE OR THE BACKSEAT, SHOWING OFF (THAT´S WHAT IT IS...)LOW RPM-STUFF, TELL THEM TO QUIT IMMEDIATELY, IF YOU CAN SWITCH THE GOVERNOR BACK ON AND MAKE THEM IN NO UNCLEAR TERMS UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ACT EXTREMLY STUPID AND DANGEROUS AND THAT YOU DO NOT CARE TO SEE ANYMORE, BUT WISH TO GO STRAIGHT BACK TO BASE RIGHT AWAY.

PLEASE TO THE REST OF THE HELICOPTER COMMUNITY THE FAVOR AND REPORT THESE IDIOTS TO THE RESPECTIVE OWNERS OF THE HELICOPTERS. (I do not want to report these guys to authorities because everyone deserves a second chance, besides there are no laws that say you can not fly with low rpm...)
THESE "SPECIALISTS" SHOULD GET A GOOD HEADWASH FROM WHOEVER CAN - FLIGHTSCHOOL, FELLOWINSTRUCTORS OR EXPERIENCED PILOTS.
THESE ARE THE GUYS WHO LACK COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDING OF THE TERM ROTORSTALL (Ask them and they most likely try to explain reatreating bladestall - and not general mainrotor stall - there is no recovery from that!!!!!!). THEY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE ABOUT TO KILL AND GET KILLED!!

Fly safe,
3TOP

PS.: I just had to state it bold. I thought it was a once in a lifetime experience, allthough I was not in the R-44 at the time when this examiner demoed low rpm flying, but I still had cold showers running down my back when the students told me.....
Unfortunately therE seem to be more of these "specialists" out there....
3top

[RW-1]

Hi all,

Back from my trip, I can see some great discussion goin on on this one! :D

TN,

I'm in the same opinion, not too much time, however if you are caught off guard there are options mentioned, the slight aft ccylic as in a flare will add RPM back, may not reverse the trend, etc ...

I think the thing I commit myself to is that if there is any question or feeling of something not right with the aircraft, my left hand descends instinctively as I make an assessment. If nothing wrong, can't hurt too much.

I wholeheartedly agree with those who say the Auto itself is determined by the entry, especially in the robbie. If you get a decent entry established, then you are halfway there. Doesn't matter (in real life) if you smack the bird where it isn't recoverable, point is so you are ... JMO.

I also wouldn't fly with anyone wanting to do low RPM experiments, they pay the test poilot enought to do that for us, I'll take the limits set already, only forgoing it for the low RPM recovery demo for the checkride. Why tempt fate eh?

Nr = Life (in my book). :)

[thjakits]

Hi RW-1,

I see you speak the language.
All this low rpm stuff is really stupid. However it is good that people know, that a Robinson is not going to fall out of the sky just when you hear the low-rpm horn.
Remember to practise low rpm-autos from time to time (if you are low time preferable with a good instructor..)as you need it to strech a glide - POH 75 kts and 90%rpm also min descent will be at 90%.......

However in regular flying there is no place for these brain dead games as seen on this thread!

Fly safe but don´t forget the fun!

3TOP and R-Driver :cool:

[RW-1]

3Top,

Speaking it is easy, it's following it when you are upstairs that can be hard ...

I know what you mean by not panicking when low RPM goes off though, when I was learning straight in autos, every time in the flare if I heard/saw it, I actually had to unlearn my conditioned reflex to lower collective, as at the flare stage or just before, I finally hammered it into my brain i could use aft cyclic at that point to bring it up ("you're about to flare anyway, use it!" Says CFI .... :) )

But if I had to say there was one thing on my mind when I fly, it is that I'm responsive enough when something happens (you know what I mean, not lollygagging outside and ignoring those likely warning signs of impending bad news ...) to get myself into that halfway decent auto entry when I need to do it.

And I'll bring up low RPM auto's for glide stretching up to my CFI this weekend, not like I don't have enough on my plate already hehe ....

[ 19 December 2001: Message edited by: RW-1 ]</p>

[thjakits]

Hello again,

RW-1: Just got back from doing a couple of full touchdowns to the water with a float R-44! Great fun and really soft (if you do it right...). 1/2 fuel and a sealed airfilterbox and someone who knows the way...

But the point is: in this case my student was a lowtime CFII (allthough he is very good for his hours). To check him on emergencies, I chopped the throttle and he nearly brock my back - he slammed the collective down so fast and hard!! Good reaction but fairly hard on the helo. We got to do it a couple of times more and now he is actually pulling back a little and the collective goes hardly all the way down at all anymore (and the way it goes it goes quickly but smooth - no slam) as the rpm hardly goes below 100% (remember the R-44 runs on 102% I think....). We were doing 85 kts at the chops so with a little backpressure it will settle into 65kts by the time the sinkrate is established. I know it is good to know, that ones reaction is correct, but on the Robbies you will have to wait (nearly..) for ever that something happens that might urge one to lower collective for "in case".
At the same time we tried a chop at 60kts and 500 fpm climb. Backpressure has to be substantial and speed will go down to about 35 kts until a decent descent is established, that permits to get some speed back. At this point we lowered the rpm to about 95% in a noselow attidude to gain speed (collective at the bottom). We never got all the way to 65 kts but still did a soft fulltouchdown to the water. We chopped at about 300 ft above the water, however we where fairly light, so once we where established in the auto there was not a lot of inertia to bring to a halt.

Once you have some 200-300 hrs I encourage you to get back to a good instructor and do some more advanced emergency and "offroad" training, it is fun! ...and expands your limits (...on a Robinson you will have a hard time to ever find its limit, mostly the pilot will chicken out first - not counting idiots who will go "straight of the cliff in a turn, because there are no physics for them...)

Fly safe,
3TOP <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[RW-1]

Gee 200-3000 seem like a light year away at the moment. But I do have that intention. Don't want to plateau at all, there is always something interesting one can find to learn, or relearn another way of doing something you thought you were great at. :)

I liked it when in learning straight in's, when I found my cyclic attitude to get my 65 indicated. I still do it by rote hehe, down coll, right pedal, a bit of aft cyclic and split the needles :) my largest hurdle was holding it afterwards, you know, if you move slightly, you end up running around to follow one needle or another, I may have broken that habit...

How did you find the touchdowns on the water itself? with a little forward speed or just down? I know you would have to be slow in bringing up the power afterwards as you wouldn't want to sit-n-spin hehe ....

Likely in the near future, if I get involved with boatpix, I may be trying the 22 with floats, should be a blast....

[thjakits]

Hi RW-1!

Once you lose the fear of autos it will become fun! Once you have the rpm needle moving slow do not chase it it will not be fast enough to follow.If you got it stable and you change the speed, rpm will move again, but try not to chase it with collective, just don´t move the collective at all. When speed is stabilized again, so will rpm.......


Water touchdowns, just like the manual says:

with a little forward speed (my gues is below translational as I do have some speed but no more indication) and little nose high attidude. Once I was confindent the chap on the other seat will do it right, I looked outside and checked TR-clearance to the water and attidude at touch: The part of the floats that rise aft will be pretty much level with the water. Touch is extremly soft (if you do it right I guess), softer than on land.
Do not trry to hold the nose too high, I was surprised at the attidude as it did not feel so steep looking out the cockpit - make it like the initial attidude at a smooth slow quickstop.

Have fun!

3TOP

<img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[RW-1]

Don't get me wrong, I do think they are fun! My thing is that up to now I have been flying infrequetly, so it's just that first one after a while that gets me hehe ....

I'm enjoying learning the 180's, and getting my CAL's down lately. That's a trip, I keep thinking "Hmmm and the tail is how far back?" :)

[thjakits]

Bad news RW-1!

You never get used to autos or flying helos!
I am flying them for a living - luckily - but if I don´t fly for a while (even less than a week....) and I need some time to "connect" again, same with autos!!

But thats helos!!

Have fun at last!

3TOP :) <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> :)

[RW-1]

[quote] You never get used to autos or flying helos! <hr></blockquote>

Aw shucks ... I guess I'll just have to find a way to fly all the time! :)