Pa28-140 - help again, pse

[stiknruda]

I've been asked to deliver a Pa28-140 from a decent size aerodrome into a 600 metre grass strip. One up less than half tanks. I'll have the ability to do a series of T&G's at the big "international" field.

The strip generally has a head wind component!

This flt is to be conducted early Monday morning and I won't get to see the POH until I am close enough to lick William P's creation.

It is with great delight that I can honestly say that I've never flown a single Piper, so a few questions:

Q1 Is this acheivable - I assume so. How wise it is another matter and I'm well aware of that!

Q2 I assume that it is fixed gear/fixed prop - am I correct?

Q3 Anyone hazard a guess at final approach speed?

Q4 Assuming I get the mains (ooh I asume it's got the wee wheel at the wrong end!) on the ground is it acceptable to dump flap immediately?

Q5 Is the flap electrical or manual or are there variants?

Q6 How susceptible are whatever engine it has to carb icing?

Thanks wise folk.


Stik

[Maude Charlee]

Not got a POH handy, but it is more than feasible.

1. 600m grass is plenty to land in, especially at the weights you are talking about.

2. Fixed tricycle gear and fixed prop.

3. From memory, at OAT 70kt final approach speed, reducing to 63kt at threshold. Short field landings I think were around 5 kt lower. Clean stall around 50kt I think.

4. Don't see why dumping flap would be an issue (I do it presently in the C150).

5. Flaps will be 3 position manually operated, with a lever just like a handbrake on the floor between front footwells. Awful design feature.

6. Engine capable of carb icing, but not overly prone to it. Build up tends to be slow and fairly predictable, with a drop of 100 RPM or so by the time it is noticeable.

Easy, if very dull and unexciting, aircraft to fly.

[BEagle]

Q1 Is this acheivable - I assume so. How wise it is another matter and I'm well aware of that!

A1. Landing weight will be about 1760 lb. Zero wind and ISA on decent grass without a slope will require a LDA from 50 ft over the threshold of about 480m. How good you are at landing in the right place at the right speed is down to you though!

Q2 I assume that it is fixed gear/fixed prop - am I correct?

A2. Yes

Q3 Anyone hazard a guess at final approach speed?

A3. Use full flap (45 deg) and an approach speed of 70 mph (or 60 kts).

Q4 Assuming I get the mains (ooh I asume it's got the wee wheel at the wrong end!) on the ground is it acceptable to dump flap immediately?

A4. Yes, the advances in technology in the first half century of aviation were not lost on Piper and the a/c has a large diameter nosewheel rather than the tailskid you'd probably prefer. There is no point in 'dumping flap' immediately after touchdown and the brakes are normally quite effective.

Q5 Is the flap electrical or manual or are there variants?

A5. Manual, using what looks like an old Ford Anglia handbrake lever!

Q6 How susceptible are whatever engine it has to carb icing?

A6. It probably has a 150 bhp Lycoming O-320 normally aspirated engine. Far, far less susceptible to carburettor icing than a Cessna 150, for example, as the carburettor is in a relatively warm part of the engine bay.

Oh - and you're going to love the elevator timmer! It is what looks like an Austin Seven window winder dangling from the roof!

[TheOddOne]

Awful design feature.

Matter of opinion!

Had electric flaps on our Rallye and on the Cessnas I've flown (150, 152, 172, 207)

The 'handbrake' deal is simple and honest. We had a potentially nasty accident with our Rallye with flap over-run with a sticking switch and I've experienced the same with 172s. The electric mechanism has also been known to become undone with the potential for asymmetric flap.

The Piper Cherokee 140 is as Maude Charlee says an easy aircraft to fly but the stall is relatively more pronounced than with the later Warrior wing. It'd be well worth your while doing a few en route, clean, part flap & full flap at idle and 1500 RPM. The a/c tends to be a bit more precise in the flare than the Warrior, which can float on and on...

stknruda,

Someone of your calibre shouldn't have any issues at all. The PA28-140 is cleared for spinning (check your particular a/c first!) unlike the later Warrior so you might be able to have some fun with it, after all. Never tried it myself.

Cheers,
The Odd One

[er340790]

Yes - a piece of piss! Spent a couple of years flying a PA28-140 out of a 550m (on a good day) grass strip in SE Belgium.

Only problem I found with the 140 versus the 150/160 Warriors and 180 Cherokee was that with full fuel it's basically a 2-seater. Also if you cut power too soon on base / final it can drop like a stone on full flap. Otherwise a nice old machine with no real vices.

(On short-field take off - it helped to bring in the required 2 stages of flap just before rotation.)

[tacpot]

Make sure you take the opportunity to do the T&G's at the big field! As a low wing a/c, it may float on a bit more than you are used to. I just converted onto the Warrior , and it floats along very nicely...

good luck

tp

[Freebird17]

Familiarise yourself with the trimmer BEagle has referred to. It has featured in at least one accident.

[FlyingForFun]

I've only ever flown one PA28-140. One thing which might catch you is that the ASI on the one I flew was in MPH. Lots of people here are quoting you speeds in kts. Make sure you use the right numbers!

As for the trimmer, a hint from my old instructor was to always try to leave it positioned side-to-side, pointing towards the left. That way, when you start winding it, it moves in the correct sense. (If you leave it pointing to the right, it will move in the oposite sense, and if you leave it pointing fore-aft, all bets are off!)

FFF
--------------

[stiknruda]

Thank you everyone.

Stik

[foxmoth]

with reference to the trim, if you have been used to an Auster you will find it appears a similar setup, only the Auster is much more sensitive and works in the opposite sense, interesting when converting someone Auster to Piper - even more interesting going the other way due to the increased sensitivity (Auster needs about 1/2" movement to the Pipers 2-3 turns:oh: )

[Saab Dastard]

Elevator trimmer: some Cherokees were modded to have an electric trimmer on the LH yoke - it is a Godsend, but make sure you identify the circuit breaker if it is fitted!

Retracting flaps: I was taught on a Warrior (v. similar) to drop only 3rd stage of flap (drag flap) after landing in case of having to touch and go.

You might want to check whether you should start it with mags on Both or either L or R (I can't remember which). I've flown a 180 where it shouldn't be started on both - not sure if it applies to a 140.

HTH

SD

[Final 3 Greens]

I learned on 1967 vintage -140s, so maybe I can add my tuppence. If it is a one mag start, it will be the left mag.

You should not have any trouble getting in, so long as you touch down accurately.

The -140 tends to sit down when you cut the power, so make sure you get the yoke well back to protect the nosewheel... but as a tail dragger pilot, I'm sure that you would anyway.

Before you fly, you might wish to try the yoke full back and note that (a) it comes back a long way and you MAY need to pull it back this far and (b) towards the end of the travel, the yoke moves up, towards your chest .. feels a bit wierd if you're not used to it.

If it is an old -140, it might have plunger engine controls, like a Cessna, but no vernier adjustments - the mixture plunger is tiny and it has been known for new pilots to type to mistake it for the carb heat :\

These (and other posters) minor points apart, the Cherokee is a very docile mount.

[J.A.F.O.]

If you want to get the feel of the Cherokee beforehand, may I suggest that you sit in your hall and look at the outside world through your letter-box. Don't worry if you can't see the nose of an aircraft through the letter-box, I've never seen the Cherokee's nose.

It should help, the only major difference being that you'll be sat near a door.

[BigEndBob]

Lovely machine, often thought it handled better than the warrior.
With practise can bring it in short final on stall warner, gives very short landing, especially 4 up, but need to watch high rate of descent. Ground roll about 100m.

[BEagle]

I certainly prefer the Cherokee 140C's handling to the Warrior II. It always feels to me that the Warrior's wing is almost too efficient as it seems to have poorer gust response and is more inclined to float in the landing flare at light weights even after flying the POH approach speed - which is higher than it needs to be, to my mind!

The PA28-140 also has better visibility from the cockpit than the Warrior, although the cockpit width is slightly less. But nice when solo. In fact, once you get used to it, the roof-mounted trimmer is actually easier to use than fumbling between the seats for the trim wheel in a Warrior.

Stalling is a complete non-event in either variants. In fact that's a slight problem as it leads some students to think that all aircraft have such benign stalling behaviour. A trip in a T-67 soon disabuses them of that thought though!

Faults with the PA28-140? Dismal fuel gauges and the lack of a 'both' position on the fuel selector, low geared pitch trim, awkward rudder trim - and just a single entrance door. Otherwise it's a simple, reliable workhorse with no real vices.

Performance? Well, one of mine will do 117 knots (yes, knots not mph!) straight and level at 1500 ft with the standard engine and prop - you have to be careful to keep the RPM below the redline though! About 2250 RPM gives a more frugal 90 knots. And that's a 1974-model with around 23000 hours on it.....

[stiknruda]

And that's a 1974-model with around 23000 hours on it.....

Crikey BEags, that is almost more than the entire VC10 fleet!

Stik

[BEagle]

Perhaps not - but considerably more serviceable!

It also had 137 MHz FM-immune VHF and GPS long before the VC10 fleet did!

[Arclite01]

Stik

flew one in the states last year.

When are you going ?

Arc

[BeechNut]

I had the pleasure of owning a '76 PA28-140E for 4 years (I now own and fly two Beeches; a C23 Sundowner and a 77 Skipper; the Sundowner is for sale).

First of all to correct some misinformation: not all Cherokees had the roof-mounted trim. My late-model Cruiser had the trim wheel between the seats, just like a Cessna.

The flap system is a joy to use. My Skipper has electric flaps and I hate them. Takes forever to go down or up and you'd better practice flapless landings, you never know...plus the indicator is lazy making it impossible to accurately gauge when you have the right amount of flap applied; therefore I use either no flap or full flap on the Skipper (only 2 knots difference in stall speed between each configuration). Manual flaps on the Cherokee: you can feel which notch you're in, and flaps are available (or removable) instantly, it's simple, relatively maintenance-free. Crude, but damned effective.

Speeds: book approach speeds are 85 mph no flaps, 82 mph first notch, 79 mph second notch, 76 mph full flap. Carry too much speed and it will float. Too little and that little 150 hp Lycoming will have trouble keeping you out of the backside of the power curve. Not a great glide ratio either. Like others have said, haul WAAYYY back on the stick on landing. Keep in mind that this bird, with only the front seats occupied, tends towards the very front of the CofG envelope. Put two people and full fuel on board, and you will actually be forward of the CofG envelope. It's flyable in that configuration but caveat emptor: it's illegal and voids your insurance. Best to have that proverbial case of oil in the luggage compartment (which is not overly large...if there is one, many Cherokees do not have ANY luggage bin).

One thing to keep in mind, the tail is a stabilator, not a conventional stabilizer and elevator. Doesn't make much difference but on a slow landing, forward CofG, I have managed to stall the tail before the wings resulting in a very inelegant, and potentially dangerous, three-point landing.

I find book speeds worked best for approach and landing. However if you have one with the STC for Hoerner-style wingtips (mind did), you can shave a mph or two off the book speeds for some really impressive short-field landings. But beware the tail issue mentioned above.

At MGTOW it's not a hot-rod on takeoff and climbout. Mine fairly had to be coaxed in the air, as it had a cruise prop. Once in the air, decent cruise speeds are possible in spite of the aircraft's reputation. I could make 128 mph on 8.5 gal/hr. Pushed, it'll even break 130 mph. My Sundowner with 30 extra HP does no better, maybe even slightly worse.

For those who say it's "spinnable", beware: if yours is a model with a built-in ventilation blower in the tail (or worse, air con), it is definitely NOT spinnable, the CofG is too tail-heavy and it risks flat-spinning. I have heard a horror story of a flat spin with the rear seats occupied, had to push the door out against the slipstream to add enough yaw to break the spin. Urban legend or not I do not know, but it's enough to make one take notice. Hard to spin to the left. Easier to the right, if memory serves. Tends to spiral dive rather than spin. In any case, I can't say this too loudly: CHECK PLACARD BEFORE YOU SPIN, to ensure yours is indeed "spinnable".

I kind of miss mine, fairly cheap to own and operate, very reliable if not very entertaining bird to fly. The Sundowner is much nicer to fly but the 10.5 gallons per hour is getting very tedious with 100LL at $1.40/liter, hence the recently acquired Skipper (slow though! 90 knots on a good day).

Mike

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

I suppose that by now you will have the answer to your parable, as it were.
If you are ever tempted to execute a stall turn in the jolly old 140, do make sure that you close the ashtray first and bung your beer cans out the side flap.
It can get real messy in there when the machine goes inverted. But, big plus, you can get a sawn off twelve bore barrel through the aforementioned flap, which can lead to good fun in Africa, or most other places for that matter.
Short field take offs can be performance augmented by the sharp selection of second flap accompanied by rapid nose rotation.
Reminds me of the chappie in Rhodesia who converted his B 36 to drop hand grenades.:uhoh:

[Final 3 Greens]

You didnt need to drop grenades from a B36.

6 turning, 4 burning and 100 megatons in the bay.....

only joking ;)

[Wunper]

Stik

One thing I found that could transform the handling "pleasure" of a Warrior was to keep a can of Teflon / PTFE spray in my headset bag for the yoke shafts. If they get dry they will tend to bind and judder in operation which I found irritating in the extreme.

W

[stiknruda]

First thing yesterday morning, 18 minutes logged in a Pa28 (oh joy of joys!) All totally uneventful including two T&Gs at a BIG international airport.

I wasn't even late for registration when I got to school!

Stik

[tmmorris]

Agree on the Teflon - nothing ruins your landing more than pulling back, nothing happening, then whoosh! the yoke unsticks and the nose shoots up.

Beware the last stage of flaps, too, on the Hershey-bar style wings (i.e. not the Warriors): rightly are they known as drag flaps. I remember an instructor turning white when I selected full flap on final to Le2k in a Cherokee 180 - he said afterwards that he'd had bad experiences with students before doing that, not realising the airspeed was decaying rapidly, and he'd been expecting to have to swim for it... Fortunately I'd flown that ac plenty of times and knew that a handful of power is required if you want full flap. These days I wouldn't bother with somewhere as big as Le2k, but in those days I flew by the book more.

Tim

[Send Clowns]

Good aren't they, Stik? I let one lead when I was in a Warrior for a formation take off, both 2 up with 40 gallons, assuming I would have to watch the power not to overtake; we couldn't even keep up! Much nicer handling too with that wing.

I can land a 140 reliably in the first 300m at Bournemouth, to taxi off at Echo. BEagle is correct in his list of the faults. I would add that I have had carb icing at cruise power. Visibility was about 4000m and it cleared easily with carb heat. The flap is certainly not a fault, the PA-28s and the T67 have the best flaps I have used.

[stiknruda]

Good aren't they, Stik?

S Clowns - Well, you did close that sentence with a question mark, so I'm probably going to burst your balloons.

Good is not a word that I'd have immediately chosen::rolleyes:

ugly, unremarkable, pedestrian, benign, docile, underpowered, were the words that certainly did spring to mind during our very brief acquaintance!:E :E

However - it safely and without drama did what it said it would do and that can't be a bad thing!

Stik

[Send Clowns]

Hahaha

Well it depends on the comparrison. From fixed-wing I have flown it is not close to the Bulldog, Firefly, Grob 115D, Chipmunk, Yak-52, Arrow, Seminole or Duchess, but they are all out of its class. Of those it competes with I have flown, the C-150/152/172, the Warrior, Archer and the Robins only the Robin HR200 handles better and only the Archer and Robin DR400/180 have better performance with 2 POB. Considering this costs as little to operate (including financing purchase) as the HR200/120 or a good 152, this is not bad!

[MichaelJP59]

I suppose in car terms the PA28-140 would be something like a 1960s Austin 1100.

A bit old, a bit slow, but does the job.

(Unless your name is Basil Fawlty, remember the car-beating episode?)

[Sgt.Peppeh]

I believe it must be a thrill to go fly a little bird you`ve never seen before...no matter what, I believe it is wise to know a bit about it before then...What I`ll do for you is give you these off mt ol`e head..

Take-off safety speed....64 knots
Best Angle of Climb........63 knots
B.Rate of Cl.................. 79 "
Threshhold Speeds..powered Appch. 63K
(landing flap)
Glide.............................(flap app) 70

Flapless apch.....................................70

VNE......................160
Max Structural Cruise....................126
Max flap ext. ...................103
Basic Stall.........50
BS with flaps...49
Max demo`d crosswind.........17

Happy Thrill

The Sarge

:ok:

[stiknruda]

Flipping heck Sarge, your Pprune name is perfect - you live in the past!

The only flight I ever hope to do in a Pa28 happened yesterday (unless I have to fly it back:{ :{ )

Useful numbers for many others, no doubt, though!

Stik

[BEagle]

Workman, tools, bad, blames, his, a.......

Rearrange into a well-known phrase or saying!

:p