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Zeke
30th Sep 2005, 08:04
Whilst looking for data to support news of an event in WMKK of a Malaysian 777 having to do a air turn back due to loss of thrust control when going from takeoff to climb thrust I came across the following from the FAA.

"An FAA review of the test data from the 3000-cycle tests for the three original engine types installed on the Model 777 series airplanes has shown that most of the early in-service 777 engine failure modes could have been discovered had Boeing and the engine manufacturers conducted a more thorough teardown inspection and analysis of the 3000-cycle test engine and propulsion system hardware. Part conditions noted in the teardown inspection reports for the three baseline 777 engine types did later occur in service, and they resulted in engine in-flight shutdowns or airplane diversions."

and

" Data provided to the Aviation Rulemaking Advisory Committee (ARAC) ETOPS Working Group confirm that the in-flight shutdown rate during the takeoff flight phase is on the order of 6 to 16 times the fleet average in-flight shutdown rate and during the climb phase is 2.5 to 4.5 times the fleet average.

Which fleet average ?

"For in-flight shutdowns where improper maintenance is a main causal factor, the 1000-cycle airplane demonstration test provides multiple opportunities for these types of failures to occur. However, the maintenance procedure validation program required by paragraph (d)(2) is intended to minimize the probability of these occurrences. The airplane demonstration test airplane provides opportunities to demonstrate those maintenance tasks associated with the normal operation of the airplane. The FAA considers that these demonstrations can be accomplished in fewer than 1000 cycles."

My colleagues swore black and blue that they are practicing turn back after loss of thrust on a 777 after takeoff following an loss of thrust on both engines after takeoff. I am unable to find any information relating to this event on the internet in English.

I am aware of other uncommanded and commanded engine shutdowns with the 777, some by USA flagged aircraft, some within the FAA FIR, other events occurring outside the FAA FIR.

I lack confidence in the publicly available data collated by the FAA on events occurring outside the USA, or in non-US flagged aircraft. The database seems to lack events which have occurred with a number of other carriers including BA, EK, and CX.

I have always thought such events are not reportable to, or investigated by the FAA if occurring outside the FAA airspace or FAA registered aircraft, how has the FAA come up with its in-flight shutdown rate ?

The search I did on the NSTB site returned 15 results involving 777s, none of the in-flight fires were on the database.

I know CX, SQ, EK, BA have had engine problems with the 777, just doesn’t seem to be any publicly accessible records of them and others.

Even the well documented problem the 777 demonstrator had in South Africa when visiting South African Airlines is not on the list.

The Australian ATSB has three 777 engine related events on their database, these don’t appear on the American NTSB site.

25-Aug-04 Melbourne, Aero. Vic. Unknown 777-21HER, 9VSYB.
18-Nov-01 Tindal NT Boeing Co 777-212ER, 9V-SRE.
30-Jan-01 Melbourne, Aero. Vic. Boeing Co 777, A6-EMM.

I don’t have much confidence in the data on that site. Below is a number of other incidents which don’t seem to not appear in the NTSB list.

OCCUPANTS: PAX: - CREW: -
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
In the early stages of its takeoff run on runway 03L a fire in #2 broke out prompting the pilots to abort the takeoff. The aircraft taxied off the runway where the airport fire brigade extinguished the flames quickly.

DATE: 19.10.2004 LOCAL TIME: 04:07 LOCATION: Cold Bay-Intl AP (PACD) / AK COUNTRY: USA
AIRLINE: Continental AL TYPE: Boeing 777-200 REGISTRATION: - C/N: - AGE: -
OPERATION: ISP FLIGHT No.: CO 6 FROM: Tokyo-NRT TO: New York-EWR VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX: 241 CREW: 15
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
The 777 made a safe precautionary landing at Cold Bay following an engine problem while in cruise flight.

DATE: 24.08.2004 LOCAL TIME: 01:45 LOCATION: Melbourne-Intl AQP / Victoria / YMML COUNTRY: Australia
AIRLINE: Singapore AL TYPE: Boeing 777-312 REGISTRATION: 9V-SYB C/N: 28516 AGE: 5 y + 8 m
OPERATION: ISP FLIGHT No.: - FROM: Melbourne TO: Singapore VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX: 278 CREW: 21
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
The aircraft safely returned to Melbourne following a surge in #1 engine shortly after takeoff.

DATE: 11.08.2004 LOCAL TIME: - LOCATION: Houston-Bush Intercontinental AP/ TX/ KIAH COUNTRY: USA
AIRLINE: British AW TYPE: Boeing 777-200 REGISTRATION: - C/N: - AGE: -
OPERATION: ISP FLIGHT No.: - FROM: Houston-IAH TO: London-LGW VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX: 130 CREW: -
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
Shortly after takeoff the aircraft safely returned to land at Houston after the pilots received indication of a fire in engine #1. Fire was put out by personnel on the ground. Passengers were evacuated via chutes on the tarmac.

DATE: 11.03.2005 LOCAL TIME: 22:55 LOCATION: Buenos Aires-Ezeiza Intl (SAEZ) COUNTRY: Argentina
AIRLINE: American AL TYPE: Boeing 777-223ER REGISTRATION: N790AN C/N: 30251 AGE: 4 y + 9 m
OPERATION: ISP FLIGHT No.: AA 908 FROM: Buenos Aires-EZE TO: Miami VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX: 195 CREW: 14
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: x CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
The aircraft aborted its takeoff run at a speed of 110 knots when a fire broke out in engine #2. All passengers were evacuated via emergency slides on the runway. The airport remained closed for 5 hours.

DATE: 23.11.2003 LOCAL TIME: 04:46 LOCATION: over the Atlantic Ocean COUNTRY: -
AIRLINE: Air France TYPE: Boeing 777-228ER REGISTRATION: F-GSPE C/N: 29006 AGE: 4 y + 10 m
OPERATION: ISP FLIGHT No.: - FROM: - TO: Paris-CDG VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX: - CREW: -
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor/substantial
Hours after takeoff, the aircraft suffered a failure of one of its GE90 engine whilst over the Atlantic Ocean. The aircraft made a safe emergency landing at Fortaleza/Brasil.

DATE: 02.11.2003 LOCAL TIME: evening LOCATION: Prestwick-Intl AP / Scotland COUNTRY: UK
AIRLINE: United Airlines TYPE: Boeing 777-200 REGISTRATION: - C/N: - AGE: -
OPERATION: ISP FLIGHT No.: - FROM: Frankfurt TO: Washington-IAD VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX/CREW: 276
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
Flying en-route over the Hebridean island of Tiree, the pilots issued a mayday call after they smelled a burning odor and smoke in the cockpit. The aircraft safely landed at Prestwick upon that time the fire was under control.

DATE: 02.06.2005 LOCAL TIME: 16:55 LOCATION: Bucharest-Intl AP (LROP) COUNTRY: Romania
AIRLINE: Air India TYPE: Boeing 777-222ER REGISTRATION: VT-AIK C/N: 28714 AGE: 6 y + 2 m
OPERATION: ISP FLIGHT No.: AI 131 FROM: Mumbai TO: New York VIA: London-LHR
OCCUPANTS: PAX: - CREW: -
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
The aircraft made an emergency landing at Bucharest after a short circuit caused a fire on board.

DATE: 14.02.2003 LOCAL TIME: evening/night LOCATION: Kota Kinabalu-Int´l AP COUNTRY: Malaysia
AIRLINE: Malaysia Airlines TYPE: Boeing 777- REGISTRATION: - C/N: - AGE: -
OPERATION: DSP FLIGHT No.: MH 085 FROM: Kota Kinabalu TO: Kuala Lumpur-Sepang VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX: - CREW: -
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
The aircraft was forced to return to Kota Kinabalu following failure of engine #1 about 20 minutes after departure.

DATE: 02.08.2003 LOCAL TIME: 13:00 LOCATION: Frankfurt-Int´l AP COUNTRY: Germany
AIRLINE: Delta Air Lines TYPE: Boeing 777-200 REGISTRATION: - C/N: - AGE: -
OPERATION: ISP FLIGHT No.: - FROM: - TO: Frankfurt VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX: 0 CREW: 0
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
The aircraft suffered hydraulic problem and made safe emergency landing at FRA.

DATE: 07.07.2005 LOCAL TIME: - LOCATION: Shannon-Intl AP (EINN) COUNTRY: Ireland
AIRLINE: (United AL ?) TYPE: Boeing 777 REGISTRATION: - C/N: - AGE: -
OPERATION: ISP FLIGHT No.: - FROM: London-LHR TO: New York VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX: 190 CREW: x
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
The aircraft made a safe emergency landing at Shannon after the pilots noticed smoke after an electrical fault.

DATE: 13.01.2003 LOCAL TIME: - LOCATION: Terceira-Int´l AP / Acores COUNTRY: Portugal
AIRLINE: British Airways TYPE: Boeing 777-200 REGISTRATION: - C/N: - AGE: -
OPERATION: ISP FLIGHT No.: - FROM: Antigua TO: London-LGW(?) VIA: -
OCCUPANTS PAX: x CREW: x
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
The aircraft made a safe emergency landing at the Acores Islands after it suffered an engine failure en-route.

DATE: 07.01.2004 LOCAL TIME: 03:30 LOCATION: Midway-Sand Island AP / HI COUNTRY: USA
AIRLINE: Continental Airlines TYPE: Boeing 777-200 REGISTRATION: - C/N: - AGE: -
OPERATION: ISP FLIGHT No.: CO 006 FROM: Tokyo-NRT TO: Houston-IAH VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX: 279 CREW: 15
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
The pilots were forced to make an emergency landing at Midway after a low oil pressure in one of its engines.

I understand that as a result of this incident Singapore Airlines is also including in its current 777 simulator profile a reconstruction of this event with a practice turnback after loss of thrust control.

I am interested to learn from bi-linguist (English and non-English speakers) of events that may have occurred with the 777, and reported in the local language. I am particularly interested in an 777 event involving a Malaysian 777 at KL (WMKK) within the last 12 months which resulted in a turn back to KL.

Would be keen to hear from SQ 777 pilots if they could confrim this is part of the current 777 simulator profile.

I am also interested how the FAA came up with the statistics for for the 777..... “the in-flight shutdown rate during the takeoff flight phase is on the order of 6 to 16 times the fleet average in-flight shutdown rate and during the climb phase is 2.5 to 4.5 times the fleet."

Any help would be appreciated.

Zeke
3rd Oct 2005, 04:34
DATE: 28.09.2005 LOCAL TIME: morning LOCATION: Tokyo-Haneda Intl AP (RJTT) COUNTRY: Japan
AIRLINE: All Nippon AW TYPE: Boeing 777-300 REGISTRATION: - C/N: - AGE: -
OPERATION: DSP FLIGHT No.: NH 243 FROM: Tokyo-HND TO: Fukuoka VIA: -
OCCUPANTS: PAX/Crew: 369
FATALITIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
INJURIES: PAX: 0 CREW: 0 OTHER: 0
DAMAGE TO AIRCRAFT: minor
The aircraft returned to a safe landing at Haneda following an inflight loss of oil in its left engine #1.

UNCTUOUS
4th Oct 2005, 13:31
Have a look at:
this link (http://www.iasa-intl.com/folders/belfast/777/777engfails-1.htm)

It may contain useful information.

It's due to be updated again also

OVERTALK
4th Oct 2005, 13:36
You might try joining this 777 forum and they should be able to provide answers (or just read back through their threads

http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/triple7/