Pay rise

[sadgit]

Come on then, who's impressed with (the UK's largest contract police pilot supplier) super, best you have ever had pay rise? :{ But they are letting us have an extra flying suit! :mad:

[TeeS]

Go on, give us a clue sadgit!

TeeS

[sadgit]

Its the worst sin in management, raising everyones hopes (then waiting until the summer is over and there are less jobs about) then dashing them :(

First rule of management: Don't p**s the troops off; especially when you are short of them to start with.

[Bertie Thruster]

More clues please, sadgit! BT

[What Limits]

Sadgit,

This is probably best discussed in an Airline Specific Forum, I have made an enquiry about setting this up - watch this space.

Bertie and TeeS - you work for the other two main competitors in this sector of the market. Worked it out yet?

[sadgit]

what limits,

Thats fine, I'm sure the other companies in the market will get to find out very quickly anyway, its too small a world. As long as management have access to it, because they are obviously out of touch with what is going on in the real world and have decided to gamble the company with this one.

[Letsby Avenue]

Well I can only hope that it's around the 48K mark - like the rest of the directly employed...:cool:

[sadgit]

Not even close :(

[Bertie Thruster]

Letsby, could u do me a favour (and save me a FOI request to the Home Office) and let me know your salary scales?

[sadgit]

BT: while you are at it compare military pay scales, North Sea even instructing/occasional charter salaries and you can see that contracted pilotage for Police Aviation in the UK, is bottom of the heap.

[FloaterNorthWest]

Believe it was 5%, although a lot more was promised.

Sadgit you also get ANR.

I think I know who you are but give me a critic clue. I think you know who I am.

FNW

[Bertie Thruster]

sadgit, it might have made you feel a bit better having a little moan on PPRUNE, but sadly, sadgit, you are only telling folks who already know how you feel!

The people who you really need to tell are those who have ultimately funded your paltry police pilot pay; Mr+Mrs Taxpayer. Only they can make a difference now.

Specifically the Mr+Mrs Taxpayer trying to sleep under the noise of that clattering dangerous machine driven by the dissaffected, distracted pirates working for the cutthroat, penny pinching Police Authority in their area.

Especially when the Taxpayers find out that in their neighbouring Police area, the Police helicopters are flown by happy, safe, well paid (so obviously better) pilots, obviously far less likely to wake them up at 2am or, God forbid, crash on them.

Don't blame the management; its just a business. The cheapest contracts (chosen by the police, driven by the taxpayer) are already in place.There is no more money for you in those contracts, apart from massaging out paltry annual increases.

Sensible police authorities( with discerning taxpayers, who sleep well at night!) have chosen to pay a more reasonable rate for their Police pilots, based on the relative pay rates and responsibilities of other government employees.

It's a safety issue. Tender for cutthroat contracts: get pirates.

Pay peanuts: get monkeys.

The "industry standard" is being set by the directly employing Police Authorties. Do your local taxpayers deserve anything less than standard, sadgit?

If some Police authorities want to continue with contract pilots (a reasonable decision on specialist management grounds) then extra public funds should be made available to standardise police pilot pay across the land.

In the public arena Flight Safety should not be a subject for negotiation.

Mr+Mrs Taxpayer need to know. "Equal pay for our Police Pilots!!"

Perhaps it's time to start choking on those peanuts.

[jayteeto]

Everyone can work out who I am quite easily so I am not hiding behind a false name and I know the management will read this. Please be careful because your contract with the company states that you must not discuss how much you are paid publicly. I am a realist and understand commercial pressures, but why build us up, raise our hopes, then do this? I am really really sad..... :(

[Bertie Thruster]

It's time the Home Office issued guidelines on police pilot salary levels. It's a matter of public safety.

[SASless]

Question....

Just why would a contract bar one from discussing your pay....it is a personal issue more than a business matter and I doubt it is propriatary information. If so...then how does one obtain a mortgage by telling your friendly banker...."ah...sorry Mate....cannot divulge my salary...the boss would not be happy if I did."

Sounds like the boss should be embarrassed if he does not want you to discuss your pay with anyone!:uhoh:

[jayteeto]

I was reminded of this requirement last year, it was not a ban on discussing with bank etc. It was a requirement not to discuss with other pilots.....

[Bertie Thruster]

One might be on a contract but on the side of the helicopter it says "POLICE" The uniform is the same as the police observers. And the flying is done to a set of Home Office rules.

The only thing different for a contract police pilot is the paltry pay.

On safety issues alone this is a matter for public debate.

[TeeS]

Hi What Limits

Got it in the end, first guess was wrong - shows what I know! I was actually chasing hints towards the rate but I think that has been answered now.

I tried a few times to contact the administration about an airline specific forum for us but no joy. Can you let me know if you have any success.

Cheers

TeeS

[FloaterNorthWest]

Bertie Thruster,

Direct employ isn't the only answer to happy pilots.

You are true about contract pilots, my company (the one in question) is paid twice what the pilots receive then take the overheads out e.g floaters, admin, etc. They then take out 10% for the shareholders or in our case prop up the non-profit, slightly harass, less profitable arms.

Smaller organisations run by pilots, like SpecAir at West Yorkshire, offer a very attractive alternative. A very reasonable tender can be made to the bobbies and due to little or no overheads the money can be split more evenly between the pilots, better pension provision can be made and loss of licence and other benefits can be provided. SpecAir all seemed happy when I flew with them last.

The trouble with direct employ, in my opinion, is that you are tied into Government pay scales and have a limited degree of movement.

Forces seem relucant to commit to direct employment as they are frightened of long term illness and seem happier to leave the problem with the contractor. The pilot market is fairly tight at the moment so even the contractor is finding it difficult to cover shifts at short notice.

I was involved with the discussions with our management over this pay review and I am, like everyone else, very disappointed and saddened by the result.

I think things will come to a head in the Police market very shortly.

FNW

[OHWDOHNTORKSOFT]

Jayteeto,

It doesn't say anything in my letter about not talking to other pilots about the deal. You're right about previous correspondance though. In the past it has said specifically NOT to discuss with others. I sometimes think they must take us for monkies, because that's what they seem to want to pay for. This new deal hasn't solved anything, infact it has probably only served to highlight the divisions more. Mind you with my new, I presume it will be new, flying suit and my nice shiny ANR helmet, I won't hopefully have to claim on that LOL and Private Healthcare Insurance I haven't got for hearing loss :{

[Bertie Thruster]

FloaterNW good points in your post.

However I wasn't simply suggesting direct employment as the answer but just that those units have helped define an "industry average" that many contract units now fall way below.

Contract employment does offer flexibility but the pilots pay needs some separation from the tendering process.

Unless of course the public are happy with cheap rate pilots flying police helicopters over their homes and cities.

[sadgit]

BT: agree with your comments 100%, except I think the great unwashed don't care a hoot about the salary of the pilot keeping them awake at night.

My main moan is not so much how much we have got, but how the company has gone about it. Various figures had been banded about during the summer, by management, all much, much higher than the final figure. Many people thought they meant it (including me, but I'm young and naive), but come the end of the charter season (less jobs about) and its a big let down. I just think it is very poor management treat people this way.

But come the spring, people will remember :ok:

[Bertie Thruster]

sadgit, check your PM's

BT

[Letsby Avenue]

The problem with pilotage providers is that the profit margin is very thin. UEOs nowadays drive a very hard bargain as they have to get value for money as well...

It's obvious where the profit is however - maintenance; which is why the engineers are now on as much if not more than the contracted out pilotage.:(

There are many ways and means of overcoming fixed pay points when directly employed but it does require a forward looking UEO who values his very experienced pool of pilots and wants to keep them - believe it or not but in this day and age we are quite hard to find!:D

Get together and lobby your UEO, make a business case and let him sell it - Direct employment isn't without its problems but it is the only way to go...

[jayteeto]

Sadgit has summed it up, its the way things were done. Sadness now turning to anger :mad:

[Thomas coupling]

It mystifies me why the change to direct employment hasn't caught on.
Some of the problem is the UEO himself - if he doesn't understand (or want the hassle) the advantages of direct employment then nothing happens.
Some UEO's don't get a look in because their procurement office/accountants override him anyway!

The service providers aren't going to rock the boat as long as the status quo continues. They are making a modicum of profit and they are comfortable with that. Why try to take the lead and try to advise the police that it would make sense to up the salaries of the pilots (hence put in a higher bid during the next renewal date) only to be undercut by some cutthroat competition?
There will always be someone out there who thinks they can do it cheaper.
They will always win as long as incoming pilots accept lower and lower salaries. And once the military pool dries up (hasn't it already) they will take civviy self improvers with unknown backgrounds (nothing wrong with that - provided they are well trained) who will accept peanuts just to get a foothold. You've only got to read other threads to learn there are pilots out there who will sell their granny for a job!

Direct employment doesn't have any problems . I think you are confusing this type of employment which protects the employee from bad practice, poor conditions and no protection......with contract work conditions!!!
Remember - the maximum working week/overtime/sickness benefit etc is a RIGHT, not a problem:rolleyes:

Our unit has been DE for 12 years. On 2 occasions there has been serious illness (cancer and RTA) each averaging 10-12 months off sick - on both occasions, the insurance paid for relief pilotage. No-one batted an eyelid, least of all the police/insurer. Our premiums are still as competitive as ever today.

The beauty of direct employ is LOYALTY. In return for being looked after by the employer on all fronts, you commit yourself to achieving the best for that unit.
You go that extra mile for flexible shift times.
You watch every penny being spent on service provision.
You advise the force on bad practice without any come back from that provider (threats to wind your neck in).
You advise on the best equipment.
You take a personal pride in your a/c and its operation because you are one of the team.

Etc Etc.

And finally - DE IS cheaper than contract, make no mistake about it. I've seen the figures and I've done the maths, time and time again. There is not much in it and it depends on various factors (FDP's / No. of pilots / perks etc).

It is up to each pilot to make their mark:

Educate your UEO - work to rule with your contractors.

No-ONE els is interested. Not the public, not the Home Office, not the CAA. :bored:

[semirigid rotor]

Letsby Av. Yes maintenance is profitable, from selling spares, not for the engineers. The pay for engineers is so poor (at the company we are talking about) most of the fixed wing licensed guys have walked. Now they are bringing in outside engineers to sign off aircraft! And the company still does not see a problem :(

As for the profit margin on contract pilotage, there is something seriously wrong with the company if it cannot make a reasonable profit, given that we all know how much the company charges. Perhaps too many overheads?

TC: This is killing me; ......I agree with you :O (as I normally do not)

[jayteeto]

Just spoken to FloaterNorthWest and he has resigned today. The boys here are really sad but understand his reasons. Good luck in your new career move!!
PS. What are you going to change your Prune name to now??