Outing a Walt!

[Stax]

Masters of the airspace. As much as I enjoy picking at your foibles (flying suits when not flying etc) I actually need some help. I think I have a Walt at work who claims to be a qualified twin engined PPL holder. He is an SAC, non technical, colour blind, lives in a dream world and is only 19 years old. I am no expert but even I know there is a minimum amount of hours required to qualify and upgrade, he claims to have got his PPL thru' flying scholarship with the ATC, this is believable, I know people who have done this but there is something about him, for a start he didn't know about PPrune!. Is there a register of qualified, PPL holders I can scan for his details as I have decided to forgo sensitivity training and out him publicly!

[Training Risky]

Just ask to see his licence?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

tbh, if he was claiming to have a normal ppl, no dramas. But a twin rating? Don't have a clue how much that costs, but you'd have to be pretty keen to pay for that off your own back, 'cause theres no way you'd get a flying scholarship to cover that!

It's a possibility he might have gotten both an RAF & an (i think its called...) air league jobber, which will put you in the right bracket for a free (ish) ppl..... but single engine....

As for not having heard of proone :) shame on him........ hope you've re-educated him!

[Washington_Irving]

Further to the other repies:

Was 14 or so years since I first went to OASC, but if this guy is colourblind I believe he should've been in a taxi and on his way to Grantham train station as soon as the medical was over. Then again, this was back in the days of the 30hr course and before they cut the hours and started handing them out to any ATC/CCF Cpl with 5 GCSEs.

You could ask him if you can pay for a seat or 'buy him an expensive cup of tea' in exchange for a ride. Most PPLs would bite your hand off at the prospect of discounted flying.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Ok, lets do some sums..... assuming little bloggs here gets his lucky mits on 40 hrs worth of flying due to scholarships (20hrs per scol is pretty standard)..... He'd probably do those when he was 17 or so, done by the time he's turned 18 certainly. Joins the raf on turning 18/leaving school? so you're talking probably 12>18 months worth of time to do the twin.

another 5 hrs to complete his ppl perhaps? the cost of the licence.... how much is a licence fee these days? for some reason im thinking 175 quid, but not sure why!

So, thats less than a grand down the drain, call it 700 quid. How long does it take to get a twin rating anyone? And how much does it cost to hire a twin + instructor per hour?

It's not looking entirely unfeasible, but why would you do a twin rating?!

As an aside, the RAF flying schol of old is gone now. You can only get one as a "promising member" of the spaceys of either description, not just walk in off the street and apply (as I did quite a few moons ago!) Shame really.... but it all costs money! As an aside, I was told once that the old 6th form scholarships only used to actually recruit 45% of the people that got them, hence the changes made a couple of years ago!

[rivetjoint]

If he's such an amazing person, got all the scholarships, did really well in the ATC, why did he settle for a ground trade and not WSOp or WSO? If he was God's gift to flying and the RAF had invested so much in him already surely someone somewhere would've at least suggested he went to OASC?

[Pontius Navigator]

rivetjoint,

Oddly there are people out there that do NOT want a direct entry commission.

My opening question to one very smart airwoman (as was then) was how many A-levels have you got?

4

Why don't you apply for a commission?

"I think all people who are going to give orders should experience being commanded first" or words to that effect. i believe that is the Norwegian route to a commission.

For our SAC he may not have the critical GCSE required.

[brickhistory]

I understand the meaning of the term, "Outing a Walt," but not the origin.

Help please?!

[An Teallach]

Walt = Walter Mitty, a character in a novel by James Thurber.

Basically Walt lives in a variety of dreamworlds well outside his drab actual existence.

Hence, Walt has come to mean, in military circles, those who pretend to have service which they do not have. Usually, uber-walts pretend to have served with the SAS, SBS, 14 Company etc. It is an international phenomenon and some even boast decorations etc, purchased from car boot sales.

[brickhistory]

(With a smack to my forehead...)

Of course, Walt = Walter Mitty!

Thanks for the enlightenment. Had not heard this euphemism for a fake on this side of the big water.

Brick

[An Teallach]

Don't worry, Brick! You can always rely on us Brits to keep you right on American literature.;)

[brickhistory]

quote:

You can always rely on us Brits to keep you right on American literature.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But I meant......
But I knew who.....


Aw, sh1t, you got me on that one...mind you, that's like clubbing baby seals, but still effective......

[Ballast]

Based on the experience of my cadets he would have been lucky to get anything like the hours for a ppl through the scholarship. I seem to recall it is now funded to the point where an average stude would expect to solo (around 13 hours???).

After that you are funding the rest yourself. I do understand that the training market is a bit short of candidates at the moment so one of my cadets "made the school an offer" of around £3000 to complete his ppl.

He then went for twin rating during university holidays but by now it was serious money.

He was pretty switched on to achieve this so your candidate looks suspicious to me

[jimgriff]

WALT has now been added to the The RAF Anassaurus
The RAF Anassaurus (http://www.ejectorseats.co.uk/rafanasaurus.html)

Keep them comimg!!:ok:

[An Teallach]

Jimgriff

I should have added that the term tends also to be applied to that strange breed, the military re-enactor.

[Another St Ivian]

With regards to PPL Scholarships, it's worth keeping in mind that GAPAN still offer a full 45 hours + assorted fees scholarship. Doesn't really help much with chasing this Mitty type, but definitely worth mentioning. They rather kindly gave me the 'Cranwell Scholarship', a few years ago.

ASI

[VP8]

Could it be Staxers is a bit green himself of this guys achievments!!:E

He might have a few bob on the family side!! Isn't that what that guy With Alpha doing and he's only 19 and running his own airline:uhoh:

VEPS

[Rakshasa]

I'm reminded of the old Walt thread on Arrse... drat where'd I put that link...


Oh and yeah, I agree with PN's female SAC. (Says the BSc armed Flight Sgt.)

[wishtobflying]

Search for a Walt Star! (http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=15503.html)

[Flap62]

If this fella's not lying about his military achievements, why not just let him live in his sad little world (assuming he tells porkies). Why the need to prick his bubble?

[An Teallach]

Why the need to prick his bubble?
Jeez, Flap62

I'm glad you didn't use that terminology on the Gay Pride? (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?&threadid=189060) thread! :}

[5 Forward 6 Back]

"I think all people who are going to give orders should experience being commanded first"

But surely as a Fg Off she'd be ordered by enough senior officers to gain experience of it....?

Seems a bit of a bizarre route to a commission if that's the end result. If you have no interest in the job, fine, but why invent your own route there if you do?

[Rakshasa]

True but Jr Off isn't quite the same as being... to use an americanism, enlisted.

Mind you, I'll admit, if I'd been more up for driving I'd probably have gone the DE route myself.

[allan907]

Further to the post by Pontious...when I was OC PSF at Honington (many, many, many moons ago) I had 2 SACs in the General Office. Both had degrees! Tried to persuade one to go for a commission; the other was a complete nerd and I suspect would have been happiest habitating a hole in the ground somewhere.

[Daedal_oz]

Masters of the airspace. As much as I enjoy picking at your foibles (flying suits when not flying etc) I actually need some help.

Test his technical knowledge: just ask him what the relationship between the thronomister and sphetzner valve is.:\

[stellair]

Ask him which engine is the critical engine on his twin, if he says the starboard engine he's talking **** as props rotate clockwise when viewed from behind on western aircraft types. If he says neither engine, ask him why as aircraft with counter rotating props have no critical engine. If he correctly answers the port engine probe him further by asking him why the left engine is critical and what happens if it fails at lower speeds such as just after take off, maybe then ask him explain asymetric blade effect. If he stumbles on any of this chances are he's blagging as all multi piston/turboprop pilots will know this subject back to front, our lives depend upon it in the event of a low speed engine failure! :ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

"the other was a complete nerd and I suspect would have been happiest habitating a hole in the ground somewhere."

Sounds like the perfect candidate for the post of OC Admin to me:E

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Onan the Clumsy]

as aircraft with counter rotating props have no critical engine. apart from the P38 of course where both engines are critical :8



or


Q) Which is the critical engine

A) The female one of course :ugh:





regarding the term Walt, in the States, I have heard it quoted that you need to meet four, count them, four hundred people who say they were Special Forces before you find one who actually was


...and when you do meet him, don't make the mistake that I did and ask him if Special forces is anything like Special Ed :}



:ouch:

:{

[TOPBUNKER]

"Ask him which engine is the critical engine on his twin, if he says the starboard engine he's talking **** as props rotate clockwise when viewed from behind on western aircraft types. If he says neither engine, ask him why as aircraft with counter rotating props have no critical engine. If he correctly answers the port engine probe him further by asking him why the left engine is critical and what happens if it fails at lower speeds such as just after take off, maybe then ask him explain asymetric blade effect. If he stumbles on any of this chances are he's blagging as all multi piston/turboprop pilots will know this subject back to front, our lives depend upon it in the event of a low speed engine failure! "


... What complete bolleaux.

A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

It is perfectly possible for an aircraft to be certified for a left-hand engine to be 'critical' for aileron control (for instance) and the right-hand engine to be ' critical' for rudder control... and vice versa. The engines' "criticality" varying with airspeed and configuration.

For engine also read propellor.

[allan907]

And the purpose of ABIWs irrational, prejudiced, inaccurate and pointless nasty little post which serves neither to enlighten nor to advance the discussion on this thread is.....?????

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

As you seldom fail to post without pointing out your past rank/appt it was aimed at getting a rise out of you sir..............seems to have worked nicely don't you think:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Jobza Guddun]

Quote:

Walt = Walter Mitty, a character in a novel by James Thurber.

Thanks for clarifying that. I thought it might have meant What A Lying Tw@t.

Cheers Jobza

[John Eacott]

Stellair,

Flown a Seneca recently? Opposite rotation engines, which one would you choose ;) :p

[allan907]

ABIW Point taken. However, I think your post says more about you and the particular chip on your shoulder than it says about me. I really enjoyed my 30 years as a 'blunty'; got on extremely well with a goodly percentage of the sharp end; and am now a pilot myself. Funny old world isn't it??

[Dan Winterland]

Sounds like this Walt is not in a position of responsibility, and the level of his'bullsh!t' is fairly low grade. From my experience, Walts who are in a position of responsibility are a potential risk. Here's some of the cases I've known.

A pilot who was a complete bullsh!tter. He was unaware of his limitations bth in his general life and in the air. He crashed an aircraft.

A pilot in a UK charter company who had a fairly impressive logbook from his days in the RAF. Only that when he went for a command in the company and his logbook was put under more scrutiny, it turned out he was actually an Air Trafficker, his logbook was pure fabrication and he didn't have anything like the hours he said he had.

An OC Accounts (a true Walt and master bullsh!tter) who was giving me grief over a paperwork irregularity in an imprest. He was soon after fond to have helped himself to a hundred thousand US dollars from the staion safe.

In my experience, Walts are a liability. A bit of 'experience ellaboration' isn't a crime, but it can lead to other things.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Dear Sir,

After my 31 years of loyal service I have often found that my "Baldrick" sense of humour, sometimes confused with sarcasm and cynacism, has on numerous occasions proved far too effective for those it was aimed at:rolleyes:

A standard "Royal" counter of "should have done better at school" or the "chip" thing just serves to prove that all the education in the world does not provide some "clever" folks with the ability to out banter us commoners:E

Now in keeping with this thread abour WALTS........."I really enjoyed my 30 years as a 'blunty'; got on extremely well with a goodly percentage of the sharp end; and am now a pilot myself."

PILOT.......Oh really, pull the other one Mr Mitty:rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[allan907]

ABIW The world is far too nasty a place for intelligent human beings, both of whom were/are part of one of the best teams in the world to conduct a pointless spat (no, it’s not banter) in a public medium. We both chose our career paths from (probably) the very same beginnings. Each of those paths has as much validity as the other. The key word is, was, and hopefully ever will be, TEAMWORK.

Although now living in a country a long way away I nevertheless salute the work that you are currently doing, particularly in support of what appears to be an increasingly fraught scenario in the middle east. I am also sympathetic with the stresses and strains of the modern day RAF which perhaps exacerbate some of the ‘blunty vs sharp end’ and ‘officer vs airmen’ – or even ‘movers vs loadies’ arguments that I read about on Pprune. It’s a shame. The team is about doing the one job that, hopefully, you love – misguided prejudice should not cloud the issue.

As I said previously, I enjoyed my time in the RAF and lived every minute of it. Nevertheless, I did not regret leaving when I did and I consider that the days of the 100,000+ RAF were, perhaps, some of the better years. I was proud at what I achieved, as you should also be proud of what you have achieved. I desperately would have liked to have been aircrew when I was in; you made it. Fortunately, I am now in a position where I can fly and my work for the company enables me to fly in some fairly challenging circumstances. I hope that you are as fortunate when you finally leave the RAF.

[Stax]

Gents

Thanks for your input (although contra and counter rotating propellers was getting a tad heavy!) My Walt has hoisted himself by his own petard and has crashed and burned! Unfortunatley I really can't go into details as involves an offence. The reason I don't like Walt's in the service is that gradually their lies start to blend into their own slant on reality and they can, and do, cause morale problems within the flight or section.

VP8, I can assure you there is no greenery involved in this thread, I am quite content to be bussed around by those magnificent men in green growbags. I did at one time a qualify as a provisional Glider pilot at 631 GS at Sealand when I was a small space cadet, it was fun but it didn't grip me. However I didn't turn it into a Gold C/soaring certificate/marathon round the world glider record holder story. I much prefer to get pi55ed and 5hag!

[PPRuNeUser0172]

I know, put him in a big tub of water and If he can walk on it, he is clearly a pilot, if he sinks then he is a witch and should be burnt.

Totally agree on your point about bullsh!t baffling brain and people confusing fact and fiction though. Nice to know that it all came out in the wash......

Regards;)

[6Z3]

Actually if he S(t)inks he's a submariner, in which case there's a good chance he'll combust spontaneously.

[Washington_Irving]

Sorry for going off thread for a moments, but:

Ballast wrote:
"Based on the experience of my cadets he would have been lucky to get anything like the hours for a ppl through the scholarship. I seem to recall it is now funded to the point where an average stude would expect to solo (around 13 hours???)."

13 hours to solo? Is that right? If so, what kind of boys and girls are they accepting for Flying Scholarships these days? In my day, you had your ab initio solo on hour 7. If you weren't quite up to speed you had the 30min 'progress check' with the chief instructor and if you weren't up to spec by the end of that, you packed your bags.

Talk about a waste of money. Why not just cut the number of scholarhsips in half and put the money in providing a more comprehensive course for the ones that are retained? Actually, I know the answer, the PC brigade don't want the little 'uns to feel demoralised. Failure to solo on a course can be referred to as 'deferred success'.

Here's a point of information boys and girls that you'll have to get get used to: Not everyone gets to be an astronaut when they grow up.

Rant over.

[Talking Radalt]

If you weren't quite up to speed you had the 30min 'progress check' with the chief instructor and if you weren't up to spec by the end of that, you packed your bags
ahhhh but you're forgetting this is the 1990s Air Force now (new but still not entirely current)...
If a stude fails at anything the first person to be interviewed by the Boss is their instructor, whilst failing stude gets counselling on how the system let them down and it wasn't their fault. "There-there, mummy's ickle soldier, don't listen to the nasty man" :*

[allan907]

Thanks for all those who took the time and trouble to PM me after my last post. Your support is appreciated:D

[tmmorris]

13 hours to first solo seems about average in the civvie world these days. I wonder if flying schools are scared of being sued so leave first solo until they are quadruply sure the student is ready? After all with 45hrs required for the JAR PPL (32 for the NPPL) there are still plenty of hours to play with for nav &c.

Tim

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

TR,

Excuse me borrowing part of your post:ok:

""There-there 907, mummy's ickle soldier, don't listen to the nasty man":rolleyes:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[BlueEagle]

In the days of the Chipmunk if you hadn't gone solo by 10 hours you had a mandatory change of instructor and went on 'Review',
that meant you had five hours to prove yourself and if you didn't, you were OUT.

The average fell between eight and twelve hours. As the SFI, (RAF Wing Commander), said, when he welcomed us, "The best pilots usually are the last to go solo".:}

[PPRuNeUser0211]

i do believe it is quite normal for a stude to go solo @ 13 or so hrs these days.... very little flex in the system to allow a civil company to let them go earlier than that

[NDB]

Is does sound a bit iffy!!

After OASC, I got 15 hrs Air League, 20 hrs ATC flying scholarship and the ACPNS (on the nav course my instructor had a caa inst rating, so all the hours counted!!) all I did was 5 hours on a 150 and finished my ppl at 17, all for less than 200 pictures of lizzy!

But the twin stuff..... How are they planning on keeping the rating going?

[Miles Offthe-Target]

I'm former RAF aircrew but have taught the civillian PPL syllabus.

13 hours is actually quite good, in my experience some students are safe at 6 or 7 hours (RAF Flying Scholarship etc), but most civillians (selected by ability to pay, rather than ability to fly of course), take up to 15 or even 20 hours.

That said, those late solo-ers often do better later in the course as they have mastered devillshly complex concepts such as Power Attitude and Trim more fully, and now have the capacity to look out of the window and nav.

Sorry, long way from bogus multi engine ratings aren't we.

Oh by the way the critical engine with counter rotating props is dependent upon cross wind....but I think you knew that.

Cheers,

MoT

[Washington_Irving]

All sensible comments, especially the bit about the risk of litigation courtesy of Mr & Mrs Bloggs who have just received word that Bloggs Jnr has just redecorated a field with the remains of a C152 or Katana.

Still, you would have thought that they'd make greater use of OASC to sort the wheat from the chaff to bring the average time to solo down.

Just for comparison's sake, is there anyone out there who can tell me how long they allow for teaching a spacey how to drive a Vigilant around the circuit?

[ACW599]

>Just for comparison's sake, is there anyone out there who can tell me how long they allow for teaching a spacey how to drive a Vigilant around the circuit?<

The Gliding Scholarship allows 8hr. Most seem to go in somewhere between 6 and 8 if they can manage reasonably regular attendance.

[ImageGear]

Reviewing a few of the hoops that OASC have studes jump through on their way to a front seat, I wonder whether, given the degree of flying experience unofficially expected, that the assessment of coordination and mental ability could be done in a full motion simulator.

Most prospective jockeys will have already prepped through various means to arrive at a point where they should be able to deal with the exercise after a short intro.

Would this not give a better perpective of ability than the "stick and ring" approach.

Is the grassroots approach to Ab Initio training still the preferred entry point? I think not!

Comments ?

[boswell bear]

Vigilant students should be ready for solo at 8 hours according to the instructor manual some go earlier but not many.

[Frosty Hoar]

Stax' profile

(So far)26 years man and boy in the RAF. Worked with Fast Jet, Slow Jet, Prop and Rotary in various places around the globe.

Dont forget to add "OUTER OF WALTS" to your resume,insert it infront of worked with fast jet if I were you.... :}