Early Gos

[Co ordination unaffected]

Where I work, which may or may not be under the jurisdiction of the largest (which may or may not necessarily be the best) ATC provider in the UK, I feel that my colleagues need to realise a few things about these 'early goes', which contribute more to the bad feeling in the workplace than any other issue.

1. They are perks, not a right
2. They are based entirely on the goodwill of your colleagues, on a 'you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours' basis
3. Supervisors / managers etc. are doing you a favour if they decide to take advantage of your colleagues goodwill and let you go home before the end of your shift.
4. I've run out of goodwill. I'm paid to be there, so I'll be there.
5. If I'm there, no it doesn't mean you can go home.
6. If you don't like it, you can go and get a job in the real world.


:mad: :mad: :mad:

Rant over.

Can we all be, if not nice, then at least professional to one another.

Rant properly over

[bekolblockage]

In a previous life, it was always amusing to witness the biennial whinge to Management asking for their policy on "late marks" or "early goes".

Of course they responded with the only sensible answer:
"Aint no such thing"

If your lucky enough to get 'em -shut up. If you aint -shut up.

[peatair]

Now which "Destination" is this aimed toward?

[surface wind]

Were you at a Union Meeting today by chance?:E

[Co ordination unaffected]

SW - no, just at work, isn't it strange how these things do tend to crop up?

Do my comments differ vastly from those voiced at a certain meeting I wasn't at? - which I wasn't, because otherwise I wouldn't be asking, would I?;)

[niknak]

Aaah.... the early go!

At one time, it was part of the HOW/TOW procedure:

1 -check notams, weather, briefing folder and pigeon hole for mail.

2 - Coordinate early go.

or was it the other way around?

Anyway, a thing of the dim and distant past now.....:(

[throw a dyce]

Bekol,
In your present life Early Go ''cannot'' . Late Break I think. 10 bucks to spot the difference.

:D

[qcode]

What is the problem with early go's. If you are say "out of hours" and you cannot work again before the end of the shift due scratcoh, or the sector is quiet enough and traffic prediction justifies that two controllers are not required. Why not go home. It is a perk for the staff and motivation for them to help when needed.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I can't fault the logic qcode, but I also can't find an argument against the bean counters, who also say, "we are paying you for that time, so you stay". Most places in the world now don't have early go's, and so I think if you are getting the odd one, do like Elmer Fudd said and be "Vewwy vewwy qwiet!!".

If you make too much noise they will say that yes you are out of console time, so for that last hour of shift, you amend documents etc. So as i said be thankful that you are some of the very few ATC'ers in the world that still get that perk.

[Co ordination unaffected]

My main beef is with people who see them as a right, not a privilege / perk, and if they don't get them, they get all humpty, with managers and colleagues alike.

[tubthumper]

I wish to be associated with the comments made by the previous speaker.

[Exel]

Co-ord,

I think many people here will sympathise with your comments, but airing them here is questionable to say the least !!

[bekolblockage]

throw a

Got me there. $10 is in the "why" tin.

As ANSA says, late marks, early go's, late breaks are pretty much a thing of the past in a lot of places with traffic and staffing levels the way they are.
Bean counters can rest easy.

[TheOddOne]

This may or may not happen in other parts of the industry, too. I may or may not have just said 'goodnight' to two of my staff, with my blessing. The fact that my post is a 'singleton' and I have to wait for my relief to come in doesn't mean to say that I cannot reward good effort during the day by allowing people to take their final meal break at the end of their shift, providing it doesn't compromise the operation. Why not, I say! I used to benefit occasionally, so fill yer boots if you can.

Cheers,

The Odd One

[Honey Monster]

When I first started in ATC (back in the mid 60's) I was an Assistant at Heathrow. Our night shift was 12 hours, 20:00 - 08:00.

Unoffically, it was the practice to split the watch into 2 halves. Once the evening's traffic had died down, one half got their heads down from about midnight to about 03:30. The other half worked through until relieved by those who had slept. Once relieved, the half that had worked through went home.

One foggy night, one of them on his motor cycle was killed on the way home.

Many questions were asked by senior management as to why he was not at work. There was talk of witholding some of the benefits due to his family.

Fortunately the supervisor had the presence of mind to sign him off sick in the attendance register once we heard of the accident, so the family received what was due.


Be careful on the way home when you are on an "early go"

Reg

[Barnaby the Bear]

To add my penny's worth, I am of the opinion that you don't make any firm plans outside of work before your official duty is over. Then if you get an early go its a bonus. If not, you can't be dissapointed.
An early go is a privalage not a right.
I don't think anybody would be-grudge the infrequent request for an early go if you are desperate, but don't be p@s*ed off if the answer is no.
:}

[spekesoftly]

I must admit to also questioning the wisdom of discussing EGs on open forum, but as the cat is now well and truly out of the bag, might as well add my two penneth.

In a previous life, the work ethic I encountered never entertained the idea of EGs - you worked your conditioned hours, period.

After joining civil ATC at one of the larger units, imagine my bemused amazement at discovering the existence of an 'EG book' !! It was usually administered by the most junior ATCO on the watch, and EGs were taken on a fair and strict rotation basis.

At another unit, I can recall that EGs even accrued whilst on leave, and you went to the top of the 'list', on return to work!

Happy days, that I imagine are now long since gone, at most places. Times change.

[Not Long Now]

Couldn't agree more about people who get upset because they're still at work at the end of a shift. But the fact is, more on afternoons than mornings, that you just don't need as many people towards the end as during the rest of the shift.
This, however, leads to it's own problem, primarily due to bean counters.
If you need, say, 24 ATCOs plugged in working at tea time rush, plus enough more to give them breaks, say 7 more, giving 31 total, but only 10 in total for the last hour of the shift, what is the point of keeping the other 21 sitting around?
The trouble is you cannot just bring people in for the busy periods, although some of the spins are leaning that way. The busy periods are annoying beasts and keep moving depending on weather, days of the week, time of year, events earlier in the day etc..
What a great invention an emergency pop up ATCO kept in the cupboard would be...

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I was once in an environment also where EG's were the norm, and came to be expected by the guys. This changed when there was an incident at another unit, and the peer support guy who was supposed to be at work was well and truly gone. For this reason, along with unexpected peaks in traffic (caused by a million reasons, but most notably an IFER), it makes sense that if you are paid to be at work, then you sit in the rest room and see out your time.

When our "late marks" and "early marks" were stopped, I moaned about it to my partner, and her response as a nurse was astonishment that I was getting upset at being made to actually work my full rostered shift, and I had trouble arguing with her.

Anyway as I said, if you get them, appreciate it very quietly, and if you don't then realise that you have now joined the rest of the world.

[Avman]

In an H24 roster system there are periods when less than the maximum permitted staff are on leave. If not rostered for other duties/training etc., this staff is superflous to requirements. As long as all required positions remain occupied/covered as per the Operational Requirement, I think LCs and EGs should be accepted (by management) as a worthy perk of the job. It makes up for all the stress throughout the rest of the year.

I've noticed at my unit that since management has imposed stricter rules and less flexibility, voluntary co-operation from the staff is almost non-existant. The end result is that it's actually costing them (management) more, and thus they are not achieving their cost effective ambitions!

[eyeinthesky]

We all seem to be arguing around the same point: If we can manage to get a few people away ahead of the end of the shift and still fulfill the contingency/legal requirements, then the financial cost is nil and accrues goodwill for the times you need it. But it is not a RIGHT.

Avman's last paragraph concerns me. If it means that the inability to offer early goes is affecting cooperation within the core shifts, then it's not management who needs to re-examine their attitude!

Those people who constantly refer to their 'rights' and what the 'legal requirements' as a reason not to be flexible had better think twice about where this could head. You stick to the letter of the agreements and management do the same. Result: Everyone stays to the end irrespective of traffic or staff volumes. Give a little during the day and you might get something back in the evening.

Someone who plans an evening's activities when they are rostered to 2200 needs their head examining!

[Avman]

:confused: :confused: I never suggested it to be a right, nor have I personally considered it to be one. I basically said what you said in your first paragraph eyeinthesky.

Modern day managers no longer understand the virtues of a flexible (within reason) approach. The outcome is ultimately not cost efficient.

[qcode]

unfortunately, as earlier stated, the avaition industry is ruled by bean counters (accountants). these so called professionals have no idea about operational work, in fact they cause more problems and probably lose money for the industry. the tide will turn over the next 10 years when they realise that they cannot get the staff because the industry is now so undermined that good people will turn to other better paid professions. due to this decline aviation will not be as safe as it is now. it is a shame that the safest industry in the world is being run by people who do not know how to run it.

[Lon More]

eye in the sky Having worked with Avman for many years I can only agree with his statements re the management. Just before I was medically retired (I fell asleep during a meeting and my yellow peril was yanked) it was considerd normal to work an early shift, attend a meeting - which could last from 1400 to 1800 - and then return for a night duty. Maximum working periods and breaks were deemed not to exist for Supervisors.
The reigns have been tightened so much that the morale of staff there has reached rock-bottom and is now digging into the bedrock. Management has zero creditability and a strike was recently nly narrowly averted, however it remains a distinct possibility.
Please note, this has actually nothing whatsoever to do with EGs, late comes, whatever. Most of the staff are adult enough to realise that these were a perk, granted only when and if possible. In fact as a Supervisor my watch did not keep track of these, it was done, again I stress, when possible , on a basis of who wanted, or needed it, most.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Lon More

Out of interest, who is the Regulator for Limbabwe ... and do they approve such working practices as you report ??

[Avman]

PPRuNe Radar, they are a law onto themselves. They abide by, or ignore, national law at their convenience. Only option is to challenge through the European Court of Justice, a lengthy and very expensive process.

[Hotel Tango]

Same unit as Lon More, the simulator pilots are made to work split shifts 0730-1100 and 1700-2100 at weekends. They're on limited contracts. Nothing about split shifts in their contract. If they complain they're out! Union doing sod all about it!

[eyeinthesky]

I didn't quite understand Avman's comment, that's why I said "If it means.. ".

Now you have elaborated, I see that I had it the wrong way around. Sorry for the apparent besmirching of your thoughts! :O

[Lon More]

PPRune Radar, as the meeting was with Head of Division to advise us of changes to our working system, in the interests of safety and efficiency, attendance was compulsory.