NPPL to JAR-FCL

[Nimbus265]

I'd like some advice please regarding the requirements of converting NPPL to JAR-FCL. The information I have found on the internet has left me a little confused, and I've yet to find to 2 flying schools/instructors who can give me the same answer. So you learned folks..can you please advise me...

On the NPPL website the FAQ answer is:


"Question: Can I upgrade to a JAR-FCL PPL?
Answer: Yes, up to 30 hours can be carried over as a credit towards a JAR-FCL PPL, as long as this flying training has been completed by a JAR qualified instructor and all JAR PPL exams have been passed. A further 15 hours minimum of training will be needed, of which 5 can be done in a simulator. Full details are provided in JAR-FCL 1.010(a)."



I obtained my NPPL in August 03 the basis of the cross-crediting allowances from my previous gliding experiences, as well as the additional training required as specified in the syllabus. Fuller details at http://www.nppl.uk.com/X%20Credit%20Doc/NPPL%20XC%20REV%2006.pdf.

My instructor at the time, who was a previous PPL(SLMG) instructor under the old CAP 053 licensing scheme. has advised me that the examinations taken at that time were those for the old CAA PPL(SEP/SLMG) due to the fact that as at Aug 03, no new examinations to support specifically NPPL (SLMG) had been issued. Additionally, this was the advice provided to him by the PFA and CAA at the time. (I understand that there are now 2 application forms for different examinations sat on the NPPL website, and new examination have been issued)


Since that date I have completed differences training for SEP/SSEA plus some 70 hours.



So I have a NPPL (with SSEA/SLMG) + ~70 hours total, have sat the old CAA PPL exams, and lets say a JAR Cl 2 medical. What do I need to do to convert to a JAR-FCL?

1. I accept that I need 15 hours training. There is no mention of a GST/NST at the end of it... What is required?

2. Most of the web-sites mention full details are in JAR-FCL 1.010(a). I have a copy from the internet - and I cannot see any reference to the specific details.

3 Do I need to re-sit the JAR-FCL exams? What was the status of the exams I took? Or do I need to sit those that are not included for NPPL?

4 The advice on the NPPL website (see above) says "30 hours can be carried over as a credit towards a JAR-FCL PPL, as long as this flying training has been completed by a JAR qualified instructor. What 30 hours does this mean? Is this 30 of the 32 (+tests) normally required for NPPL (Normally all done with an instructor) - which I didn't do due to cross-credit arrangements.

4. Do I have to fly 'another' 30 hours with a JAR-FCL instructor? Despite having a valid NPPL + 70 hours. - This seems daft to me - If the exams I took are deemed to be 'invalid' for any reason and I have to do 30 hours (+15 hours which I accept), then I'm affectively starting from scratch again!.

5. Do I need to write to anyone specifically seeking clarification CAA/PFA - and who would be the best person to address the issue.

I know I did my NPPL in the very early days following its introduction, and there were still transitional arragements in place.

Any constructive advice would be very welcome - I find it kinda difficult to accept that Although I can jump in a 150 today and with a valid NPPL to fly the same aircraft with a JAR-FCL I actually may have to start from scratch.

Thanks in anticipation. :ok:

[DRJAD]

I did this route, though without your previous experience prior to NPPL.

I obtained my NPPL, then obtained a JAR medical cert. Class II, making me eligible for the PPL(A).

The examinations (the JAR ones) for the NPPL are identical to those for the JAR-PPL, so, as the passes were all still within the limiting period, that was OK.

The NPPL has a shorter QXC requirement, and a lesser instrument time requirement than the JAR-PPL, so I had to fulfil those requirements with extra Pu/t time, etc., together with ensuring that I had enough SSAT to satisfy the JAR-PPL requirements.

After dealign with those, with the help of my FTO, the JAR-PPL skills test had to be passed. With the experience, post-NPPL, this was no problem, and I gained the JAR-PPL four months after gaining the NPPL.

In other words, it was quite straightforward.

[Nimbus265]

Thanks for your input DRJAD.

The area of concern is over the validity of the exams I took, and the previous experience requirements. I'm happy to do the 15 hours/JAR 2 medical/ and JAR NST/GST... its the other bits that I do not have an answer on!

[DFC]

"Individuals who have
already met the 45 hour experience requirement
will be required to complete discretional flying
training, at a Registered Facility or Approved FTO
One cross-country flight of at least 270km
(150nm), during which full stop landings at two
different aerodromes different from the aerodrome
of departure shall be made, and the PPL(A) Skill
Test with a CAA Authorised TMG Examiner.
Individuals who then wish to obtain the SEP rating
will be required to complete an SEP Class Rating
Skill Test."

The above is a quote from LASORS 2005 Section C.

Thus for flying, it says you do training as required (Should not be much!), a solo crosscountry and a Test to get a JAA PPL with TMG rating. Having done that you add the SEP Rating to the licence.

The exams as far as I can see must be done (but ask the CAA).

After all if you have passed the old ones and are up-to date with your flying you should not have a problem with gettiong a pass mark on some multiple choice exams. :)

[Nimbus265]

Thanks for that DFC thats very useful.

I've no real problem sitting the exams again, as you say, I'm in current flying practice, but the ones I sat were the same as those for the old BCAR Class A, so do they need to be resat?


I wonder if the 150nm X-country flights have to be within that period. I've already got a more that few in my log book... I wonder if these will count?

[Pronto]

Rather than ask for advice on a forum, why not simply ask the CAA who will then issue a definitive response as to what they will or will not accept.

That way you'll know what you need to do, not think that you know . . .

[Nimbus265]

Having discussed the matter with the PFA, I have received an e-mail response:

"The allowance of 30 hours for a NPPL (SEP) holder towards a JAR-FCL PPL(A) is based entirely on the fact that this person will have undertaken the same training as an applicant for a full JAR PPL(A), but at a slightly lower level, (32 hours instead of 45) and has been trained by a JAR-FCL Flight Instructor (Aeroplane) and undertaken the full JAR-FCL PPL(A) theoretical knowledge examinations. The additional 15 hours tops up the NPPL(SEP) training to full JAR-FCL standard to include the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test.

Your training for your NPPL was not with a JAR-FCL FI(A) nor did you sit the JAR-FCL PPL(A) theoretical knowledge examinations. So unfortunately you do not qualify for the 30 hour allowance.

The only credit allowed towards a JAR PPL(A) from another category of aircraft in JAR-FCL (SLMG in your case) is: 10% of the total time as PIC not exceeding 10 hours.

The allowance of 30 hours for the NPPL (SEP) is purely because the training has been in line with that for the full JAR-PPL."

It would therefore appear (and I'm just waiting for confirmation from the CAA), that if you use the cross-crediting route from Microlights/gliders/or SEP to obtain an NPPL, it becomes invalid if you want to convert to JAR-FCL PPL(A) at a later stage and you can only claim a maximum of 10 hours towards the JAR FCL PPL(A).


In theory I can have say 400 hours+ on SSEA, with type ratings for the whole range of NPPL priveledges - yet to convert this to a JAR-FCL, because the cross-crediting option was invoked to obtain my NPPL, I have to do another 35 hours instruction, sit all the exams again and do the GST/NST again (I don't mind the last bit).

In other words, with the exception of 10 hours flying - I have to start from scratch... this is absolutley BARKING!!! :\

Anyone wishing to use the cross-crediting route to NPPL - beware if you want to go on to JAR-FCL - You can't without effectively starting again. :mad: :mad: :mad:




http://www.nppl.uk.com/X%20Credit%20Doc/NPPL%20XC%20REV%2006.pdf

[BEagle]

There is so much factually incorrect information on this thread that it's difficult to know where to begin....

Anyway, I shall try...

1. Exams. You will need to pass ALL the JAR-FCL PPL(A) exams.

2. Medical. You will need a JAA Class 2 medical.

3. Training. From LASORS 2005 (This means exactly what it says. Tell the PFA to read it!):

Upgrade to JAR-FCL PPL(A):

The holder of a NPPL with SEP aircraft rating wishing
to obtain a JAR-FCL PPL(A) shall :-

a) Complete at least 45 hours flight time, of which at
least 35 hours must have been as a pilot of SEP
aeroplanes. A maximum of 5 hours may be
completed in an approved FNPT or flight simulator.
This flight time must include :-

1) 20 hours dual instruction of SEP aeroplanes
with a JAR qualified instructor;

That does NOT mean an additional 20 hours, unless, of course, you haven't flown any hours with a JAR-FCL FI(A).

2) 10 hours supervised solo flight time on SEP
aeroplanes which must include 5 hours solo
cross country flight time including one cross
country flight of at least 270 km (150 nm),
during which full stop landings at two different
aerodromes different from the aerodrome of
departure shall be made as per JAR-FCL
1.125.

The 150 nm Q X/C MUST have been flown solo as stated.

b) Pass the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Theoretical Knowledge
Examinations (unless previously passed for the
NPPL (SSEA).

As I've already stated.

c) Hold a valid JAR-FCL Class 1 or 2 medical
certificate.

As I've already stated.

d) Pass the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test as detailed in
Section C1.4.

Yes, you will have to pass the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test.

Clear enough now?

[DFC]

BEagle,

Would it not be easier based on the LASORS quote I gave above for this pilot to first obtain a JAR PPL with TMG rating and one holding a JAR-PPL, add a SEP rating to it?

That is what it seemed that LASORS recomended?

Regards,

DFC

[Nimbus265]

OK I'm mising something here...


I have used x-credits and I sat my NPPL theory exams in September 2002, 1 month after the NPPL was introduced. My license was one of the first issued by the CAA.

What you have stated are the current requirements for the current NPPL conversion for the standard route.



1. At that time there were no JAR PPL Exams only the legacy CAA PPL Exams wich were used during the transition to the NPPL syllabus, which I sat and passed. There were no NPPL examinations available at that time. This poses a question... how do I prove whether my examinations were the JAR-FCL exams this long after sitting them? only the results are sent to the CAA not the papers?


2. The cross credit route required a minimum of 10 hours to NPPL + the exams + NST/GST. Consequently I have not carried out 20 hours with a JAR-FCL FI. I flew 18 hours including 2 NST's and 2 GSTs (see later in the post) with a CAA PPL(A)/TMG examiner - not a JAR FCL PPL(A) as it is now known. The exams were perfectly valid, and verified by the CAA at the time. They must have been otherwise they wouldn't have issued me with a license.

3. The current requirements in LASORS 2005 say nothing about transitional arrangements which were in force at the time. So I did NOT fly 20 hours with a JAR-FCL PPL(A) instructor. Infact if you use cross credits - you do not have to fly anything like 20 hours.

4. Both my training and examination was carried out by CAA PPL (Class A /TMG)examiners as there were no transitional arrangements in force for examiners at that time (Both of whom have had since their rating converted to a NPPL - not JAR-PPL(A) with TMG rating). This poses another question: How do I show whether logged training time was or wasn't carried by an JAR-FCL instructor? I've only my log book to support this?

5. I've since flown countless XCountry flights solo (I do have 70 hours with an NPPL) - I don't mind doing another skills test.


Let me explain how difficult it was in the very early stages to get a NPPL. I took 2 GST's and 2 NST's...why? because the order in which they were taken was not defined in the original paperwork issued by the CAA, and in the time between me taking the tests and submitting the paperwork, they changed their minds, and I had to do them again in the reverse order!


But I hold a perfectly valid NPPL with all the same priviledges as every other NPPL - it's just the route I obtained it is different from that which you will get main stream at a flying school today.

If they are such inaccuracies in what the PFA say (who manage the NPPL (SSEA) scheme please explain why I have had 5 pm's on the subject ( 2 from flight training schools) all with different views to yours, you must surely understand my confusion.

If you use cross credits (currently only 10 hours to NPPL from gliders for instance, which you can do if I suppose you are good enough)) it doesn't meet the requirements in LASORS for converting to a to a JAR-FCL at a later stage. You can then clock up hundreds of hours with a valid NPPL, but as you didn't fly 20 dual with an JAR-FCL FI, you have to do them again. The
supervised solo flight, obviously mean as authorised by a JAR-FCL at the time, despite perhaps having had dozens of post NPPL solo cross country flights which would otherwise of met the criteria.

I am awaiting a response from the Flight Crew Licensing Section of the CAA.

I hoped that in posting to this forum, I may find somebody who has been in a similar situtaionie got the NPPL very early on before all the transitional arrangements were finalised via the cross credit route, who has managed to convert to a JAR PPL. I'm not stupid,am I am fully aware of the current requirements - its just that as specified in LASORS it would appear that (ignoring the medical etc, I have to do around 35 hours again, which is what the PFA are also telling me. Any genuine advice appreciated!

[BEagle]

DFC - Ah, I see what you mean! Best approach would thus seem to be:

1. Confirm that the conversion requirements for NPPL with SLMG Rating to JAR-FCL PPL with TMG Rating are the same as for legacy UK PPL(LMG) licences. Suggest you contact the BGA for clarification/confirmation as a first avenue of approach.

2. If they are, then obtain a JAR-FCL PPL with TMG Rating as stated in LASORS F5.3.

3. Then add a SEP Class Rating to the JAR-FCL PPL as stated in LASORS F1.2.

However, if the conversion requirements are not agreed to, then yes, a further 20 hours dual with a JAR-FCL qualified FI will be required. This is a JAA, not CAA ruling. Also the solo Q X-C must be precisely as stated - solo and supervised by a JAR-FCL FI. The rest of the10 hours solo qualifying time must also, it seems, have been supervised by a JAR-FCL FI. All this must be completed in SEP Class aeroplanes, culminating in a PPL Skill Test flown with a UK/FE(PPL).

So it seems that, as nimbus265 hasn't done much flying with a JAR-FCL qualified FI, the best course would be to open the JAR-FCL PPL witha TMG Rating, then add a SEP Class Rating.

But I'm confused with much of what nimbus265 has written:

JAA exams have been around since 2000 at least. The exams required for the NPPL SLMG Rating can be either the old CAA SLMG exams, or the JAR-FCL PPL(A) exams. This is because many of the SLMG training providers do not have CAA authorisation to hold the JAR-FCL examination papers. Presumably he sat the old CAA SLMG exams? This is still true today.

Differences training to add the SSEA Class Rating (or 'SEP' as it was then) to the NPPL must be conducted by a FI qualified to give instruction on 'SEP Class' aeroplanes. By 2002, that meant a JAR-FCL qualified FI(A). NOT a 'PFA coach' or a CRI(A), but a JAR-FCL FI(A). If the Differences Training wasn't so conducted, then the application should not have been accepted by NPLG.

[Nimbus265]

BEagle, DFC,

Thanks for your input.. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that converting the NPPL(SLMG) to a JAR-PPL(A) with TMG then adding SEP/SSEA is the path of least resistance. I can of course still continue to fly SSEA on my NPPL at the same time.

Apart from the medical and I assume the examinations, then does anybody know what the hours requirements are? I'm content with a Xcountry/skills tests etc.

LASORS 2005 states that ]"Any previous flying experience gained in TMG aircraft (i.e. Vigilant) may be counted towards the
45 hour minima required for the grant of a JAR-FCL PPL(A) with TMG rating, however the specific requirements under JAR-FCL (25 hours dual instruction and 10 hours supervised solo-flight time) must be completed. Individuals who have already met the 45 hour experience requirement will be required to complete discretional flying training, at a Registered Facility or Approved FTO One cross-country flight of at least 270km (150nm), during which full stop landings at two different aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made, and the PPL(A) Skill Test with a CAA Authorised TMG Examiner.

The PFA answer to this was

You cannot have a TMG rating on an NPPL, only SLMG, Microlight or SSEA, and therefore the same problem exists re the 10% PIC not exceeding 10 hours, so sadly, I don’t think the LASORS text will help you.

Though as I have over 45 hours 'experience' on a T61F (which is classed as a TMG (or is it an SLMG)) I'd kinda hoped this would satisfy the experience bit,

Which basically boils down to fact that I'm still confused. :ugh:

[BEagle]

Again, from LASORS:

Conversion of the UK PPL(A) SLMG to the JAR-FCL PPL(A) with TMG class rating is possible subject to the following criteria:

a. complete a minimum of 75 hours as pilot of aircraft that meet the JAR-FCL definition of TMG and hold a current Certificate of Test or Experience for such aircraft;

b. hold a JAR-FCL Class 2 medical certificate;

c. demonstrate to the satisfaction of the UK CAA that a knowledge of the relevant parts of JAA requirements has been acquired (may be satisfied by signing a declaration contained in application form);

d. appropriate licence issue fee.

You need to establish from the BGA that this conversion also holds true for NPPL with SLMG Rating because that effectively replaced the UK PPL(A) SLMG.

The Slingsby T61F is classified both as a TMG and as a SLMG. You can see the full list of classification in LASORS Section F Appendix D.

[englishal]

Hmmm.....Maybe there is a path of even less resistance.

What I would do is go to America, who will recognise all of your hours, regardless of class of aircraft. Make sure you meet the requirements for FAA PPL, i.e. 3 hours night, 3 hours in last 60 days with FAA CFI, X/C etc....and then sit the FAA PPL. Bearing in mind that all the time you currently have will count towards the requirements.

How many hours do you have? You can then convert the FAA ticket to JAA fairly simply.

Just a suggestion ;)

[BEagle]

I wouldn't bother with going the FAA route, Nimbus265 - I can't see it being cheaper for you - plus you would still need to take the JAR-FCL PPL(A) exams and the JAR-FCL PPL(A) Skill Test rather than the simpler SEP Class Rating Skill Test.

I have checked with certain people and we're now just waiting for a reply from the CAA. I will let you know as soon as I get a reply.

Also, although the old NPPL cross-credit document stated that SEP differences training had to be carried out by a SEP FI, we think that's wrong - it should be an 'authorised instructor' which would then include CRIs as the differences training refers to people who are adding a rating, not taking ab-initio training.