Leaving CAL

[Wally Gun]

WARNING
When you elect to leave CAL be aware of the following. They have recently changed the uniform return policy as per an ops notice. This notice does not form part of your contract and is being used to make you PAY for your uniform...DO NOT PAY FOR YOUR UNIFORM...in fact do not resign at all...just leave.

[sky330]

You have to pay only if you stay less than a year.

The fact that they created the note says a lot about how fast guys are leaving :-)

Now, I disagree, having make a mistake is one thing, but faces the consequence of YOUR decision to come and resign properly.

"just leave" is for me an unacceptable attitude.
What's next, don't bother doing the check-list after the flight and the paper-work, "just leave the cockpit"....

Send a correct resignation letter and go face your chief of sector to explain your decision.
Add a sentence stating you disagree, with paying your uniform as it is not the habit in the industry and that it was not part of your contract coming in.
If you want, refuses to pay that, but fulfill the rest of your obligation!

My opinon!!

[ishi59]

Hear hear!!

Let them know why you're leaving, or else they'll never change things

[Deske1]

They wont change either.They know the basic reasons for each resignation.However we are not a thief to run without a word,although I wont pay the uniform,as far as I know,this is a highly profitable,state-run,national flag-carrier not a low-cost airline.

[pitotman]

330 pull your head out of your ass man............

I did everything right when I left CAL.........had several meetings with all the chiefs even got told I had a job anytime I wanted to return.........bottom line is the F*cked me out of my last pay and out of my severance and lied to my face.........so spare me your bullsh*t bro.......the only reason you say that is cause your sorry ass is stuck there and you have nowhere else to go cause you are bonded for 15 years and your license is no good anywhere else.........not that anyone would hire your ab-intio ass...........!

I am so sick of all the BS surrounding CAL.........if you want to know how it is I will tell ya!

Plain and simple: if you have no job......go ........if your jobs sucks ass and you need a rating...........go.....if you have a good job flying ANY airplane that you enjoy STAY THE HELL AWAY........! I have made the prediction before and I will say it again.........accident within the next 3 years..........I hope to god I am wrong but from what I saw in my time at CAL it will happen......sadly!
:ugh

[Undecided username]

EVA is in the same boat. Conditions, rules of thumb, and the prediction.

:ugh:

[laxcax23]

Pilotman really I dont understand what you are talking about. Things have vastly improved at CAL. My best friend is a western senior first office working there for the last 2 years. Loves it. In fact it flies in the face of the tone of most comments here from so called CAL pilots. Certianly his version of events differ from what what I read here. At least I know this guy very well, so I know whos opinion I will take as truth. It surely leads my to conclude that the actual reality is that a small number of persons here are presumably hell bent on bad mouthing CAL as much as possible so as to reduce their competition when THEY THEMSLEVES actually go knocking on the door of CAL. I would say to those considering joining CAL as a FO, be VERY careful reading the utter blurb from the so called ''many" on these CAL threads constantly bad mouthing CAL.

[29chev]

laxcax23,
Don't know you or your friend or where you are from but Pitotman is bang on.....yes I understand things have improved at CAL compaired to before I started with them but that only shows how low the standards were before .
And believe me this isn't about a way for us to "reduce their competition" its about the truth and CAL has a long long way to go to be up to basic Western standards....
If its so good ask your "Western friend" why we have new hires quiting before they even finish training, just up and leaving in the middle of the night rather than finishing sim....I'll tell you why they can't believe how they are being treated and are refusing to put up with it.
Come if you must but get ready to go when you can.
Nothing will change here "they don't want it to"

[pitotman]

laxcax23,

Dude if you have not worked at CAL you probably should keep your views to yourself..........read what I said....if you have no job .........go to CAL....... blah blah blah....

I went with the intention of retiring at CAL.........and I lasted less than 2 years! I was furloughed from one of the best airlines in N. Amearica and I came from a regional carrier before that..............CAL is worse than ANY outfit I have ever worked for..........so I will say it again in case your ENGRISH is not so good........GO ONLY IF YOU HAVE NO JOB!


You obviously have only ever worked a real airline...........sorry for you bro!

peace

[Deske1]

CAL wont change.Even SOME(FEW) of the middle level management are nice guys,the airline wont change,otherwise only a few number of local pilots would remain.Geeeez,what could be here some years ago!You know,on the last pay day my western friend showd me his salary with the following words:This is the only thing that keeps me here.
The local instructors dont have an idea what their job is.The only standard is to learn the books.
For instance,yesterday I saw an approach,Flap 1 at 28 miles and level flight at 2000 feet from 20 miles till G/S captured.From a pretty high reputed instructor captain.Last week the local cpt told me,that he is going to fly both leg as he considers the TAF 9999 TEMPO 5000 as low visibility.
And even,these are the minor things that makes the life terrible.
I hate to be a device in this loss of face game in every aspect in the life here.People working in the same office and they dont communicate with each other and the sh!ty result always comes to my face.Always.
And I gave up my job,my seniorty number in my home country,I have also planed to retire from here or at least staying here for a long time.
Yeah,good Qs,why are so many leaving?The contract of the new hires is 500 USD less than ours with the promise that they would get 20.000 USD cash after 2 years.So even CAL is happy if a new guy stays here at least two years.The bigest value of CAL is the 8 days home leave,nothing else.
Will leave soon even if the revision of our Market Allowance in this December is positive.Sorry,I am a human,not a servant robot.

[sky330]

Pilotman,

what make you think I am ab-initio ??

Sorry guy, A330/340 captain, with JAA licence and no bond, I leave today if I want...
Why I stay is my business

I agree CAL sucks on a lot of thing, but that not a reason to behave like a thief, ans sur, they won't change because you tell them your reason.

For me it just a question of politness, you seems to have some lesson to take there...

Enjoy your neww life, whatever that is

[laxcax23]

Pilotman you cant expect to drag ur american culture everywhere. We dont all eat macDonalds and watch Beverly Hills 90210. Its time to wake up and realise that other practices are out there that still gaurantee that the debt equit ratio is maintainable and that operating margins are within or indeed exceeding local market forcasts. CAL is a business not a pilot CRM society. The reality is that pilots are just a small piece of the overall operation in CAL

[calsar]

Maybe you need a little counsling as your anger is evident. It is true that CAL does not honor its contracts or agreements and the scheduling sucks but they pay ontime every month and are trying to get better, I do not like a lot of what goes on in CAL especialy when they tell new FO's that a command is on the horizon or that the new enhanced sheduling is for my benifit. Most people know of the problems before or very soon after they arrive and can accept it or leave.The Chinese culture seems to be at the root cause of the problem, blame someone else whilst saving yourself seems to be their answer and as far as honor goes there is nome within most of the Management or local pilots, it is a foreign term to them.
CALSAR

[Wally Gun]

Hey you guys
This is not a chinese v western culture debate.
Fact...CAL have changed a policy regarding uniform return and it is not part of the contract.
Some do not wish to rock the boat...nor do I. Simple fact is they will try it on and all you need to do is pull out your contract and say NO I am not paying.
As for all the operational inuendo...it is accurate.
WAH LAY GUN

[29chev]

laxcax23
AHHHH 90210 went off the air almost 6 years ago .....Dude where do you live?
Anyway not the point ...it's not about culture per say its about being treated as a human.....you say the way CAL operates allows them to make money....well just think how well they would do if they didn't have to replace all their expat pilots every 18 months....good business is good business anywhere in the world....only the abuse and poor working conditions of the locals keep them going( at least that’s what I'm told by the local pilots 700 of whom are suing the company as we speak for racial discrimination as apparently they get paid less than the expats) ....oh ya and the fact that they are owned by the ROC doesn’t hurt either
IMHO
29

[Kaptin M]

The reality is that pilots are just a small piece of the overall operation in CALIn that case, you should REMOVE them :p :p :p

I've seen an airline operate without managers, accountants, refuellers, flight attendants, and ground engineers.

Maybe YOU can show us how to operate an airline without PILOTS :p :p :p :p :p :p :p

[Medwin]

Good one Kaptain M.

[laxcax23]

The reality is pilots are expendible and in abundant supply. Have you seen CALs profit margin regarding the Last year end ? Dont get me wrong, I am a pilot myself based in asia, but why dont we just face up to the reality that we are little more than glorified taxi drivers. Its not a hard job, though tiring I will admit. Its obviously working in their favour to let people go after 12, 18 or 24 months and replace them again, otherwise why would they continue this practice if it was a loss maker?? Explain that one KM

[pitotman]

LAXCAX23

Dude you’re the exact reason out industry is in the sh*tter..........do us all a favor take your bus driver attitude and go drive a bus........I am professional airline pilot who graduated Valedictorian of a Aviation University......I attained top grades and love my job and I am damn good at it..........!


Other dudes remarks about me being angry..........not at all! I disliked what I saw and I fulfilled my obligation and I left. Have to admit having 9k stolen from me now that I am out the door is disappointing but I walked away with my life....so they can keep it for all I care! I just hope none of my friends or colleagues are on the next hull loss that CAL WILL HAVE...........

Peace
Pitotman

PS SKY330 I was told that no expats are on the 330 fleet.........so how are you an expat? Or are you 340......?

[sky330]

to pilotman:

True, no expat on A330, one rumor is it this a test case.

In six months, middle management will go to the top and say : Look, no expat on A330 and you don't have more problem than on the other sectors, so we don't need the expats!
We have the same safety performance without them.

Safety performance being deduced by the number of FOCA occurence, of course, :{

One of their chief-pilot was telling me : KAL is getting rid of all expat (don't know if it's true by the way), CAL should do the same, the guy was really glooming at the idea :yuk:

Like I said on another tread, don't go there as an f/o, think really twice before going there as a captain!

[Kaptin M]

The reality is pilots are expendible and in abundant supplySo are diamonds, but many of them have flaws, and not all have the same cut and polish as others.
otherwise why would they continue this practice if it was a loss maker??You say you're a pilot working in Asia??
Then you should understand the thinking.
They'd rather have it done THEIR way, and lose a million , than to admit they were wrong, and save the coin.
Profit margins can be (and are) adjusted any way the company accountants are told to.

One of their chief-pilot was telling me : KAL is getting rid of all expatOnly a few years ago, I recall hearing that KAL were INSTRUCTED by their insurer that they HAD to have a percentage of round eyes (either on the flight deck, or in the total composition), because of their incredibly bad accident record.
CAL should do the same...and replace them with whom?
Taxi drivers?! :}

[Deske1]

KAL? I ve found these on the Rishworth:



B747-400 Captains - Korean Airlines

Reference: 736

Duration: 5 year term, renewable

Start: As soon as possible!

Type: B747-400 Captains

Experience: 500+ PIC hours on type 3000+ hours total PIC time Under the age of 57 at date of joining Flown on type within last 2 years

Qualifications: As above

Benefits: Great terms and conditions: commuting contract, bonus payments, insurance, per diems, overtime & salary

Comments: Please register online and contact Nalisha Elia at [email protected]




I do really wish that only once a chief from CAL would say the same to my face.As soon as they give me a No Objection Letter,the next day CAL can replace me with a local.

No incident on the Airbus fleet?
Departure from Kilo in ANC........
Not to mention the weekly scheduled hard landings(1.6,1.8 Gs) on the 744.
I am really interested how the annual revision of the Market Allowance will end......that will say a lot!
As far as there are only CAL 20 cadets in Australia,we will see.
Yes,the similarity with KAL is quite good,they are the only airlines in the world who can compete for the worst airmanship award.

[fender]

I was reading this thread and just had to reply. I worked for CAL on 340 fleet. I had some interesting moments babysitting some very junior Captains and some senior ones as well. Of course there were some good local pilots there as well. The real problem is..as always, the ingrained cultural attitudes there. I had more than once tried to explain with some subtlety that culture doesn't play a roll in the cockpit.
I got fed up with many aspects of the job, including my safety and just uped and left and I would do it again. I was never asked to pay any bond money back, probably because they realised they were the shafters not the shaftees.
If it was a company with even the mildest of moral obligations to the expats, I would have perhaps told them I was leaving but how do you approach a smiling assassin..I wasnt about to lose a sh*t load of money to prove i'm a good guy. All it would have proved is i'm another sucker done over by an airline. I, like many others were led to believe we had a career with CAL but having been one of the early batch of round eyes to go there, we came ,we saw, we left... and the endorsement is not worth a pinch of crud as is the Taiwan license.
Sure, if your a newby wanting an endorsement and get up some experience, just go and do it if you get the opportunity but one word of warning... I wouldn't sign over a bank guarantee no way no how... AIN't worth it... Good luck.

[laxcax23]

Pitotman, explain to me how you had 9K stolen from you ?? Didnt you sign on the dotted line?? Dont blame others for your actions ok? Begin to take responsibility for yourself.

Sky330, the fact that you probably threw thousands at a University course does not make you the professional you claim to be necessarily. Im not saying you are not a professional, but it takes a lot more than that. It means putting in the hard yards, late nights, devotion etc

Kaptin M...oh my goodness...are you really suggesting that professional accountants and CFAs are involved in creative accouting at such high levels? Havent you heard of code of ethics within professional bodies, International Accounting Standards, external audits. Are you really so nieve to suggest this?

[fender]

Lax...You are correct. We pilots are just a small piece of the pie and we like to think we are an important part of the operation but times have changed. Pilots are the poor sods who cant keep up with the times and changes. I'm not talking about operational changes, but award conditions, including days off,leave,wages..etc..I still have my professional pride but we can and are being replaced more often now. Aircraft ARE easier to fly and more reliable than ever before. Gone are the days of the one job career. CAL are not devastated that you leave after 12 - 18 months. I think it suits their needs better that you leave rather than you hanging around pestering them about an upgrade. It really has become a case of look after ones self as best you can. I have been one to despise this concept and have beeen shafted more than once. I will try to look after me first from now on and in the process, if I can look after others its a bonus. THE GOOD OL' DAYS ARE OVER... and i'm sad about it too.

[Kaptin M]

we can and are being replaced more often now.With what are we being "replaced"?
Only other pilots can replace pilots, and to do this requires a least 2-3 months of training, even if one is already typed, with much of that time spent on the ground.
Having a turnover, also allows the new recruits to negotiate themselves a BETTER contract than their predecessors.
There are PLENTY of jobs available now, and not near enough experienced/qualified pilots to provide the numbers needed to suitably fill them.
I have friends who are currently looking at the different conditions being offered to lure new pilots - the conditions are being changed, upward, quite regularly now, as airlines realise they don't have access to the numbers of pilots they had been led to believe there were available.

The very fact that pilots are VOLUNTARILY walking away from jobs, is an indication of their confidence in quickly finding a new employer.

Aircraft ARE easier to fly and more reliable than ever before.[/"Easier to fly"? In what way? In fact, there is much MORE skill needed to fly today's aeroplane, than was needed 20 or 30 years ago.
New avionics have been incorporated that required detailed knowledge for programming and operating.

We pilots are just a small piece of the pie I never see any of the office staff at their desks on week-ends, public holidays, and often even during a normal working day, but the airline continues to operate normally - doing what airlines are MEANT to to, fly aircraft, and transport people/freight.
Would the same still happen if pilots all took week-ends, public hols, and random other times off?
The "small piece of the pie" fender refers to is the outer crust - without it the rest of the pie will simply ooze all over the place.
(Now back to your HR desk fender and do what your employer pays you to do, instead of fooling around on the Internet! It's lucky that you guys aren't paid for the ACTUAL time you are working productively.)

[fender]

Ahhh Kap. Apart from that last crapy sentence you had to put in, I agree with you. We work real hard, we work long and we are our own worst enemy... Aircraft are easy to fly.... I was leaning more on the reliability side of aircraft of today and EFIS makes for a hell of alot more situational awareness than what we call steam driven stuff..This lends itself to companies taking a RISK and employing ,"more junior,less experienced pilots for less money." For gods sakes, I saw it in VB and Jetstar..
There are heaps of jobs around and thats why I just up and left CAL. I can go to India tomorrow and get 4 jobs with good pay..Really good pay.. I am lucky that I can do that.. But how can I put sh*t on some young dude/es starting their career who just gets offered a job flying an airline for less money. Its bloody human nature. I dont like it one bit but I repeat,...you get shafted enough times you have no choice but to join the wolf pack or walk away and "sit behind a desk..blab blab."
All said and done though, If you got a 100% loyal non corrupt union I'll be the first to join..

[pitotman]

laxcax23,

You should replace LAX with “SUX" and replace the 23 with "4aliving" Then your name would better reflect your personality or lack of it for a more accurate screen name

You could be: SUXCAX4ALIVING
:yuk:

You say" Pitotman, explain to me how you had 9K stolen from you?? Didn’t you sign on the dotted line??

Since you have no idea about my contract I will keep it short like your Johnson......... I fulfilled my contract! Period full stop!

CAL screwed me out of 30 % my last months pay and my severance pays and by doing so BROKE ROC law and my contract........!

You say "Don’t blame others for your actions ok? Begin to take responsibility for yourself"

My action was leaving before I died! I took full responsibility and now I am alive and much happier for leaving. Just like the 45 other expats this year and 1 local guy who finally had the BALLS to do it!


You say” Sky330, the fact that you probably threw thousands at a University course does not make you the professional you claim to be necessarily. I’m not saying you are not a professional, but it takes a lot more than that.”

See now you are totally out of whack! See most professional pilots go to university to study aviation, get a degree and spend the rest of our lives striving to be the best in our profession.

In Taiwan they pull anyone out of the office they see fit at CAL including the guy who cleans up the cigarette butts in flight operations and then they PAY his schooling for some second rate aussie flight school or German to spoon feed the cigarette butt guy/girl and hope to turn them into a professional pilot..........when all they are is an missile waiting to happen!

You say “It means putting in the hard yards, late nights, devotion etc”

Let me know what your girlfriend’s phone number is and I will be sure to put a few HARD YARDS, LATE NIGHTS, and devotion into her……..next time I am in Taipei!

:ok:

You say “Kaptin M...oh my goodness...are you really suggesting that professional accountants and CFAs are involved in creative accounting at such high levels? Haven’t you heard of code of ethics within professional bodies, International Accounting Standards, external audits? Are you really so naive to suggest this?"

Are you really so fricken naive that you believe that this does not go on every day in the business community around the world........ever here of ENRON JACKASS...............knuff said!
Ever meet a MARRIED TAIWNESE broad at the bar.........”ethics”.........knuff said

Dude stick to whatever office job you do at CAL and stay the hell off a pilot’s forum. CAL is by far the worst operation I have ever had the displeasure of working for….that is why I left. I understand your desire to try and protect your job at CAL and in some weird way I admire it! But you are not a pilot nor will you ever be one……..even if you get selected to go to Australia and train to be a future missile driver. So stop wasting company resources and find out which airline has gone bankrupt this week! Get on to their HR department and promise them a career at CAL on the 747-400 and don’t forget to tell them that they will all be Captains in 3 years!

Man I make myself laugh.....
:O

[laxcax23]

Quote from KAPM !...."I never see any of the office staff at their desks on week-ends, public holidays, and often even during a normal working day"

Well I ask you KAPM, how many office staff do you know who get 8 days off per month and paid to fly business or first class each time by their company sa they fly half way around the world back home. Indeed it seems anyone who disagrees with KAPM is just an armchair pilot. A convenient way to dismiss facts when they are presented.

[Gufo]

how many office staff do you know who get 8 days off per month

Everyone.. They're off on Saturdays and Sundays, aren't they? It's 4 weeks a month; 4*2=8.
And they're pretty sure to sleep in their bed each damned night of the year and have dinner with their families.
I deeply respect everyone's job, really. But no one with a job on the ground, where you can have a break and slam a coffee, should never ever compare the psychological effects of his job with ours. They stand on two different grounds, simply.

Take care :ok:

[pitotman]

SUXCAX4ALIVING, formerly known as: laxcax23

The more you write on here the more ignorant you become. You are as transparent as anyone I have ever met! I feel sorry for you.......I truly do. Maybe its just better for China to take back Taiwan now......that way your silly posts can be monitored by BIGBROTHER and I would not have to waist my time rebutting everything you lie about on here!!!


Quote from SUXCAX4ALIVING ( "Well I ask you KAPM, how many office staff do you know who get 8 days off per month and paid to fly business or first class each time by their company as they fly half way around the world back home. Indeed it seems anyone who disagrees with KAPM is just an armchair pilot. A convenient way to dismiss facts when they are presented.

FACT: CAL had one of the WORST SAFETY RECORDS IN THE
WORLD....NOT TO MENTION MANDARIN!

FACT: WITHOUT EXPAT PILOTS THIS COMPANY WOULD NOT BE
ALLOWED TO FLY OVER CANDIAN OR CONTINENTAL US
AIRSPACE NEVER MIND LAND IN OUR AIRPORTS.

FACT: WITHOUT ECM (EXTRA CREW MEMBER IN FULL UNIFORM IN
BUISNESS CLASS FOR THOSE THAT DUE NOT KNOW)
EXPATS WOULD NOT WORK HERE AND THAT WOULD PUT
YOUR SORRY ASS OUT OF A DESK JOB.....SO YOU SHOULD
THANK EVERY EXPAT PILOT EVERYDAY YOU SEE THEM

FACT: YOU ARE NOT A PILOT

FACT: YOU NEED TO GET BACK TO YOUR DESK AND DO WHAT
YOUR SORRY ASS GOVERNMENT RUN AIRLINE PAYS YOU TO
DO AND LET THE BIG BOYS FLY AIRPLANES AND DISCUSS IT
WHILE YOU DREAM OF FLYING

FACT: CAL BUISNESS CLASS SUCKS AND I AM GLAD TO SAY I
WILL NEVER FLY IT AGAIN.

FACT: CAL 1ST CLASS IS NICE..........BUT NOT IF YOU DIE IN THE
AIRPLANE........!

FACT: AFTER BECOMING A ALL NATIONAL AIRLINE IN 2015 THE
ACCIDENT RATE WILL SORE ONCE MORE........SAD BUT
TRUE!

I am sure you are asleep at your desk now as it is lunch time in Taipei and everyone sleeps at their desks! But when you wake up please rebutt anything that I have said and I welcome your arguments! Because I know I will win everyone.........

Pitotman

[29chev]

pitotman
Even after your departure you make life fun for me in Taipei....you missed a great fleet meeting today....LOL

We were rolling on the floor in the crew center reading your last two posts .
29

[IBTheseus]

Sorry to disapoint, however there is at least 1 expat Capt on the A330, and another shortly to check out, although the check out has not been without 'local' challenges.

And yes, only head to CAL if you have absolutely nothing else and stay only as long as you absolutely must.

8 days home leave per month is great...the rest is not so great.

[laxcax23]

Ah Pitotman you are letting yourself down now really with utterly silly comments, baseless as well. You know nothing aboutme is the real truth, just like I know nothing about you but yes I can deduce you are certainly an immature loudmouth lol. Come on, you have dug your own grave with this audience pitotman. Your arguments are flawed to the core. You have no "facts" as you purport to have. When your ready to debate real issues let me know. Its scary if someone like you really has a degree by the way :p

[BlueEagle]

Well we seem to have long since gone totally off thread and entered the personal abuse arena!

Thread now closed.