Aus Expats - would you go home (with poll) [Archive]

ferris

3rd Sep 2005, 07:40

Barra, as stated on another thread, AsA have been hanging out the no vacancy sign.
The responses that several controllers have received recently has been luke-warm, to say the least.
The speculation as to why AsA is telling those applying that there are no vacancies has varied from:
- AsA is waiting for the new IR laws to kick in so that they can 'adjust' the terms of hire
- there are genuinely no places available (seems strange with all the TIBA going on)
- AsA is addicted to the policy of undermanning and filling the holes with OT to produce an overall cheaper labour bill (works fine as long as the staff play ball)
- they do not want to re-hire the individuals involved

Take your pick.

Either way, there are people trying to come back who are being told there are no jobs available, regardless of the T&C.

Fox3snapshot

3rd Sep 2005, 07:45

Good to see you still kicking around mate!

Nowra Tower were advertising the other day, great spot for a bit of fishing and sailing, and the Ex Servo's do a good steak...:p

Drop a PM with your latest LOC.

Regards
The Fox
:ok:

Tweety

3rd Sep 2005, 14:16

Foxxy

Nowra tower sounds pleasant, where did you see that advertised if I may ask?

Please PM me

TTFN

Tweety

Fox3snapshot

3rd Sep 2005, 15:59

You need to check regularly at this link...

Defence Jobs (http://www.defence.gov.au/dcr/)

They have the Defence Civilian Jobs listed, will be assigned to 44 Wing when you browse through....

I am waiting for Darwin though....home sweet home!

Can't handle the cold after 8 years in the desert! :uhoh:

Good luck. :ok:

Barra Tuesday

3rd Sep 2005, 17:41

G'day all.
Ferris I realise that AsA have hung out the 'no vacancy' sign - the idea of the thread is just to gauge if any of us would head home under the right conditions. I enquired and have had the same reponse that I am sure the rest of you guys have had. Seems ludicrous that with a few of us out here and willing (???) to come home under the right conditions - pay and recognition of previous experience, being foremost; that AsA continually denies that they have a problem.
Jerricho - what did you think of our new contract??
Fox3 - I am still here just south of the Arctic............ mmmmm Darwin - toss you for it (BTW thought you were a Katherine boy!!)
Better still they could hire us both - Mrs Barra and the fingerlings are heading home for a holiday in a few weeks while I am stuck here working.
Hoody should you read this; why not investigate what HR are telling people like us. If ML is that short why not PM us with an offer we can't refuse!!!

The Euronator

3rd Sep 2005, 20:17

Jerricho,

I wouldn't go back either for fear of retaliation from when I trained Plazbot.:p

No Further Requirements

3rd Sep 2005, 23:48

Hi all,

As far as Defence Civilian jobs go, just about everywhere has them now. Darwin is an interesting case though. Heard the following rumours:

1. There are a few contract civvie spots there, but I believe that 44WG in their tactical wisdom don't want to renew most of them. They want it to be all service folks there.

2. The sim supervisor there is a permenant civvie job. Rumour has it that it will become vacant in the near future.

3. There are two pay scales. One is the line controller and it pays ( I think) in the $50,000 range. The other is Executive Level 1, which are the supervisor and training officer types and this pays in the high $70,000 I think. Overtime and penalties are also payed where applicable.

Hope this is of some help.

NFR.

Edited for spelling :yuk:

tobzalp

4th Sep 2005, 01:06

Your time will come you pair. Mark my words.:mad: :cool:

DirtyPierre

4th Sep 2005, 09:27

Jerricho & Eurantor,

Come to Byron Group, and get me as your Instructor!

Insert evil laugh track here

AirNoServicesAustralia

4th Sep 2005, 11:47

If the years of service over here, were recognised in the increment you returned on, I would consider it, but it would have to be mighty attractive to lure me back. Right now though, the beer is cold here, and weather is beautiful one day and perfect the next, so at the moment thanks but no thanks.

Also don't think I could put up with the continuous Certified Agreement negotiation crap again. Also having heard who some of the managers are these days, scares me.

But if they are badly understaffed I would have thought they would look on Aussie Expat ATC's as a blessing rather than a burden, and lure them back, so as to gain from their skills they have learned all over the world.

Pushin_Tin

4th Sep 2005, 18:51

"Training Solutions" pitch on it is that with the TAAATS catchup training, it's just as cheap to do an abinitio.....go figure!

I guess with TAAATS doing such a good job, monkeys can monitor the alarms. A couple of decades of Oz and international experience count for zip ;-)

AirNoServicesAustralia

5th Sep 2005, 02:51

I don't know about the rest of the guys around the world, but most have previously worked with TAAATS, so the bridging course required to catchup, would be extremely short, surely no more than a couple of weeks. In contrast to this requirement, you are employing ATC'ers who have been exposed to traffic levels far in excess of anything you would see in Australia, and exposure to situations (eg. constant U.S aircraft carrier ops, and fighter/refueller ops.) that guys would never get in Oz. This must be a huge asset for ASA into the future.

Instead of this option, they go the ab-initio route, and spend a year and a half (and around 300 to 400 thosand dollars) training someone, who even if they check out will take years (if ever) to gain similar knowledge and experience to the expats.

Seems like a no-brainer.

DirtyPierre

5th Sep 2005, 07:39

ANSA,

Agreed. Seems rather churlish that Airservices acts this way to the ATCs they should be welcoming back with open arms.

Tweety

5th Sep 2005, 10:33

airnoservices

I agree with you totally, it is a no brainer. I know guys who have spent time in ME and/or Canada, Europe and elsewhere and have experience way beyond that of most Oz ATC's and that is probably a frightening thought for the less than able management types.

However, as in the serco thread, the ASA management are really no different to the Serco lot are they. All they are worried about is the size of their bonuses, and usually it is the staff that carry the can for this. remember ASA's catchcry "AFFORDABLE SAFETY" hire them young because they are cheaper (easier to make budget and get bigger bonus) and less likely to cause problems to management, and when they get older and wiser find a way to p.ss them off.

They all must have gone through the same X-ray machine, makes you wonder doesn't.

reality is that neither will ever get it until there is a big midair and then the sh.t will really hit the fan, remember CG disaster....one has never seen radar installed so fast and staff procured out of nowhere.

till next time

RustyNail

5th Sep 2005, 14:12

Barra Tuesday,

Gidday mate,

Thought you were coming to the sands to form a PK fan club.

:ok:

tennis

19th Sep 2005, 05:16

I'm sure BT would love to catch-up with PK! LOL!!!

I don't understand the psych of ASA controllers. If you don't want to work on your rostered day off - then DON'T. It's quite simple. If you do then I am guessing they are the one's not complaining.

The problem appears to be that there is more than enough controllers willing to work constant extra hours, have little in the way of a social life, give half of their earnings to the government and keep ASA management operating with a bare bones roster in some cases, which is a time bomb that will go off eventually where two airplanes will come together because of controller fatigue after working so many extra shifts he/she doesn't know what day it is!

Oh yeah, and I bet somewhere in the contract it says it is the responsibility of the controller to identify and acknowledge when they are not fit for duty!

Maybe the union is too weak to handle the might of ASA upper management!!!

TwoDogs

19th Sep 2005, 14:26

If memory serves me correctly the attitude towards rehiring those who chose to leave the fold for greener (or especially sandier) pastures has been the same since the early 70's. Very few have been welcomed back with open arms.

bekolblockage

19th Sep 2005, 15:26

TwoDogs

Yeh, They've never been comfortable with the concept of something existing beyond the World of Aviation According to ASA (or its many previous guises).

Barra Tuesday

20th Sep 2005, 04:24

This little fishy is not heading home any time soon (to work at least!!) Happy where I am and life just keeps getting rosier. Just started this thread to see who was out there and what they thought of what was happening in the world of Aus ATC. It seems unanimous - AsA has lost the plot when it comes to staffing!!!

Tweety

20th Sep 2005, 11:31

Barra

I totally agree with you, and as having worked for ASA for 20 + years (yes and trying to get back - with no luck) and keeping in contact with those still there, they are actually worse than what they were, and they have become more anal than what they were.

There is no future with ASA or Serco/ Navcanada/ATNS or any other ATS provider for that matter, and the sooner more people realised this the better.

Yes the union is way out of its league here and ASA has got the better of them. I see this from the gradual eating away of conditions at each EBA.

IT will come back to bite ASA on the arse, as one day there will be a major incident/mid air and then we will see some major heads roll, a senate inquiry, the loss of a minister or two, CEO's some directors (incl Kevin Gale - what a bloody joke he is.... he has incident after incident when he was at Coffs landing acft over the top of other acft on the runway waiting to takeoff.. so they cancel his licence and put him on the board of directors... if only the board knew they would demand his resignation) this shows how laughable the whole ASA organisation has become, an accident waiting to happen.

All for now.

TTFN

Uncommon Sense

22nd Sep 2005, 00:44

Nice Spray Tweety - but Gale has not been on the board for some time.

Where is it that you work?

Tweety

22nd Sep 2005, 13:14

U/S

There we go then. As you can see I have been out of Oz for a while.

:ok: :ok: Thank goodness they got rid of Gale the man (if you can call him that) was a bloody joke!

Who then is the latest ASA puppet on the board?

I am working way west of your location at this point, but the defence jobs look interesting at this point.

:cool: :cool:

TTFN

DirtyPierre

22nd Sep 2005, 21:35

I can smell the sour grapes.

Funny, there seem to be a few controllers in Brissie and Melbourne who have worked overseas. That is, gone and come back. Why is it that they've managed to do this?

Barra, after reading of the troubles others have with the ME, Serco, NATS, NavCanada, it seems I'd rather stay in Oz. The surf is certainly better, right Tobzalp.

I enjoy my job, I have good working conditions, and yes, the current certified agreement negotiations are difficult. But as a union, civilair has a common resolve. We are taking this fight to management, and I think something good will come of it.

Tweety, you haven't been around for a while, so maybe things have changed just a little since you left. In fact, they may have gotten better since you left.

Ciao

AirNoServicesAustralia

22nd Sep 2005, 23:42

I for one hope the guys in Oz get a good deal in the next certified agreement. Everyone leaves, or doesn't leave for different reasons. If you are happy doing what you are doing DP, good for you. I think what the guys here are getting at is, that if ASA is so short, then they should pay the returning Expat Aussies, commensurate to their experience, including that experience they have gained overseas.

At the moment, when you come back they don't seem to want to know what you have been doing overseas. They don't want to maybe gain from what we have learnt, and be better for the skills we can bring into the organisation. This isn't about a "mine's bigger than yours" argument, but the fact is, that a lot of us, have been working some very busy traffic around the world, and as such have picked up skills, that I personally would never have got sitting on the sectors I was on in Melbourne.

So as I said no sour grapes, just a bit perplexed that there is a source of controllers out there, that for the right offer, ie. the right re-entry increment, and the right sectors (I mean what sense does it make to send a guy who has just spent a couple of years vectoring his arse off into Dubai, to Brisbane Oceanic?????), would return and help ease the shortage in Oz, for a lot less money than it will cost to train guys from scratch.

PPRuNe Radar

23rd Sep 2005, 00:21

AirNoServicesAustralia

23rd Sep 2005, 01:50

Ok well PPruneRadar, we will have to agree to disagree.

Fact 1. ASA is short of staff. So short they are closing sectors on a regular basis.

Fact 2. The training of Ab-Initios costs in the vicinity of $300,000 Australian, and at the end of that they are lucky to get half of the trainees rated. And forgetting the cost, the number of trainees is not enough to cover the shortfall that already exists, coupled with the retirements that are impending.

Fact 3. The expats aren't begging for a job back. ATC'ers are more in demand in expat ATC job markets now than ever before. So what is being said is that it makes good business sense to recognise the experience these guys have, and pay them accordingly. If they don't want to do that, fine, they continue to run short, and we continue to live and work O/S.

You call us mercenaries. We have gone and worked overseas for a million different reasons, and not always money. I made more money in Australia, even when taking into account tax, but I wanted to get out because the ATC was more interesting here than it was back home. Due to that I have gained skills I wouldn't have in Australia. When the expats return they bring with them that experience, and those skills, and the benifactor is the ATC company.

My personal opinion is that if ATC wasn't such a closed market the world over and companies actually encouraged controllers to work on term transfers in other countries, ATC would be the better for it. Most other industries benefit from the cross pollination of ideas and techniques but it seems that ATC'ers always feel that their way and the way their country does it is the best.

Anyway I guess you aren't going to agree, since you work in a country that doesn't even recognise a controllers license from another country, so I better "**** off".

Fa

Barra Tuesday

23rd Sep 2005, 01:54

I didn't intend this post to go the way that it is - I reiterate what I said earlier in that the intent was to see who was out there and who would go home for the right package - whatever the right package might be for that individual. Other countries do it (pay experienced controllers well) so why not AsA?? PPrune Radar you really need to get out more :p

bekolblockage

23rd Sep 2005, 02:33

Great forum, where the moderator tells you to "**** off".

Barra Tuesday

23rd Sep 2005, 06:38

True; but I must admit I have never been told to **** Off before; been told lots of times to Faaark Orfff though. Obviously Pprune Radar isn't an Aussie.

DirtyPierre

23rd Sep 2005, 08:04

ASA is short of staff. So short they are closing sectors on a regular basis.
Not regularly, but often enough to be a concern.

end of that they are lucky to get half of the trainees rated.
Currently, pass rate is about 80% rated.

companies actually encouraged controllers to work on term transfers in other countries, ATC would be the better for it.
Most definitely agree!

I mean what sense does it make to send a guy who has just spent a couple of years vectoring his arse off into Dubai, to Brisbane Oceanic?????),
Cause that's where they need the controllers. We don't need arrivals controllers, we need Tops and Oceanic controllers. Besides any fool can vector, but how about juggle 30 aircraft procedurally during the monsoon season with 120nm weather diversions at 2am in the morning??

ferris

23rd Sep 2005, 08:22

DP, ANSA is an ex-'big board' boy.

The mod is entitled to an opinion, butLoyalty and seniority still has a price I hope. WTF? When has the 'company' ever shown any loyalty in return? Seniority? Don't know about NATS or Eurocontrol, but when was the last rise-thru-the-ranks Senior Manager at AsA? They are all "contract mercenaries" too (often with american accents).but expecting to come back on the same salary and seniority as others of their generation who stuck with it ?? **** off. Is it still 1955 where you are? Sticking with it? Maybe you'll just have to accept that sometimes those with a bit of get-up-and-go, get up and go.
Perhaps if the international "market" for ATC labour was a bit more open, controllers in oz might see a decent payrise? AsA wouldn't be attempting to stifle wages growth, would they? That would be anti-competitive, and fly in the face of their 'business' philosphies. ;) Especially as demand for controllers world-wide rises.

DirtyPierre

23rd Sep 2005, 08:49

DP, ANSA is an ex-'big board' boy.
Well no big boards anymore in Oz. It's all TAAATS, and that's a whole new ball game.

And for those that worked the Perth sectors before they transitioned to Brissie. Kimberley sector handles significantly more traffic than pre-TAAATS. Carpentaria is a sh!t fight at 3 am in the morning.

PPRuNe Radar

23rd Sep 2005, 09:42

Sometimes you have to throw a big pebble in the pool to catch the fish :ok: :}

I don't have any objection with people being paid the market rate, but why should they step right back in to career progression and seniority as though they had never even left ??

piniped

23rd Sep 2005, 09:47

I tend to agree with PPrune Radar on this issue.

As one with an interest in the state of play, I remember how p!ssed off I was that guys that had made use of the training that AsA had provided, bu66ered off overseas then came back ahead of us all that had stayed behind.

There are several guys that did recently go back, one was from UAE, you should all know him and he was given Oceanic I think.

Now he had also done radar in Oz before leaving and all the UAE redar stuff too, but he wasn\'t unrealistic enough to moan about where he was put. I mean, the company are under no obligation to reemply you.
If they have a shortage on TOPS or Ocean and you want a job, the choice is pretty clear.

Are you sure that you are not teenagers? Seem to want the cake and to eat it to!
Adults learn that you can\'t always get what you want immediatley, remember that there is always a Team Leaders (or whatever they are called these days) job going and that WILL take into account you overseas experience. All you have to do is wait til you are entitled to apply.

For those that think I am a management troll...think again, I did the old Perth sectors, then TOPS, then other spots, now in the sandpit.

I just don\'t have the "they owe me a living" ideology.

ps you guys aren\'t the same crowd that insisted that the company pays your tertiary fees are you?
If you are that would explain a lot:suspect:

ferris

23rd Sep 2005, 10:41

Well no big boards anymore in Oz. It's all TAAATS, and that's a whole new ball game Gee, thanks for that. ANSA worked TAAATS, as well. You don't think anyone else in the world has TAAATS-like equipment?

There does seem to be some very big chips on shoulders, here. I, for one, certainly don't think that I'm "owed" anything by AsA.but he wasn\'t unrealistic enough to moan about where he was put I don't think anyone is moaning about where they are put. Just that AsA are telling anyone looking for a job that there are no vacancies.
Furthermore, I think ANSA's point was that once AsA does re-hire someone, it's really a "bum-on-seat" mentality if you don't tap that persons experience. They'll put ab-initio's on radar sectors, and send the experienced radar guy to TOPS. So, whilst they are certainly entitled to hire people and put them where they are short, it's not like they only hire 1 guy a year. Efficient use of resources? Not exactly an AsA strong point.bu66ered off overseas then came back ahead of us all that had stayed behind How exactly does a returnee "come back ahead" of you?
DPCarpentaria is a sh!t fight at 3 am in the morning How did we get to ATC "my dick's bigger than yours"? By telling you where ANSA had come from, I was hoping you would see that maybe some of us have been around a bit, and maybe even worked the traffic you think is so hard, before embarking on our great adventures. Maybe, if you had ventured out a bit, you might see things differently?
PP Radar
step right back in to career progression and seniority as though they had never even left Once again, perhaps those things exist where you are. 'Modern management' doesn't recognise them. In fact, in AsA, a CV full of projects and diversity goes a lot further than 20 years of loyal service on the same console. An army of bitter old controllers will testify to that. The old rule of inverse proportion, ATC ability, and ladders.

Slagging those who left doesn't help. AsA not utilising a ready source of labour is a means of making people think twice about leaving, and hence keeping a lid on your salary. See it for what it is. If people were able to come and go more freely, more would go. If there were genuinely no jobs, fair enough. Doesn't seem to gel with what you and others are saying on other threads.

Tweety

23rd Sep 2005, 13:08

Barra

you did well to start this thread, congrtulations.

As for DP well sorry son, no sour grapes! However, yes I would consider coming back to ASA under the right conditions, but at the moment the conditions aren't right.

there are some Scandanavian contries that actually encourage their controllers to go O/S for experience and welcome them back with open arms and pockets and usually stick them back at the level they were at or above as happened in a couple of cases I know of. Why , because they knew they couldn't ever get that type of experience in their own country and this was a much cheaper way of getting that and having happier more highly trained staff who would most likely stay put. And guess what that is exactly what has happened.

I agree with Ferris's last post and in fact most of his rhetoric.

I know a controller who spent 18 years with ASA who has worked all the old sydney sectors incl the old busy Sy Arr N & S Bn arr S CG app, UAE area, one of The busuiest Toronto sectors (if not oneof the busiest in North America) incl approach and working during the 9/11 terrorist attack, and with all that experience still cant get a job back with ASA, and this has happened to numerous controllers with similiar stories time and time again over the last few years. This experience should not only be recognised but also encouraged (as per the scandanavian experience) by ASA, but until there is a major frontal labotomy done on the ASA upper and mid management, then a CV full of projects and other BS with only a little controlling will fit the bill for them. When will they learn.

There is currently a shortage of area controllers (in fact controllers in general) worldwide and even more so of controllers with a full book of ratings - a rarity these days, du e to streaming. And yes this does have ASA worried and why Ferris is correct in saying that is why they do not encourage the rehire of returning controllers for fear that most will flee and a way of keeping a lid on wages... you must remember the word [B]" BONUS" this is all the managers think about...stuff the troops.

DP despite what you think, conditions have been eroded quite substantially over the last 10 years, so I take it you have only been there a dog watch and only in Brisbane, if not let me knowif the contrary.

Finally to the moderator PPrune radar, I don't take kindly being told to "**** off" by anyone especially the moderator who is supposed to keep a lid on this sort of thing, top effort on you. Dont get stroppy at the likes of us who have given the expat thing a go because maybe you lacked the balls to take a shot at it yourself. so to you on behalf of the rest of the forum, I say "**** off". If you're happy with your lot and not prepared to take that chance great, but dont begrudge us the right or the chance and go and come back and possibly be recognised for the gaining of experience in ATC skills and the life experience gained.

TTFN

DirtyPierre

23rd Sep 2005, 13:28

Mt. Isa, Williamtown, Sydney, Archerfield, Brisbane (SAR, Fraser, Tops, Byron). 22+ years and still loving it and working in Oz.

Brent is back on Ocean and he's quite happy. But then again, he's that sort of guy.

BTW, in recent meetingswith ATC in Brisbane, Greg Russell, our new CEO, asked for short and medium term solutions for ATC staffing. I mentioned an experienced ATC recruitment program as a solution. Not sure how much of a response it will get.

divingduck

23rd Sep 2005, 14:52

Hey Tweety...

Perhaps some of AsA managers remember his now legendary parting shots about their management capabilities??:E

That may have something to do with the lack of response to his application.:(

Tweety

23rd Sep 2005, 14:59

DP

I acknowledge your time around the traps, and yes plenty of experience there and a similiar vintage to me. i am pleased you are happy there and I also agree with you that the work is enjoyable.

I am pleased to hear you have made mention of this to the new CEO, and hopefully :ugh::ugh: he may do the management clean up that is required, unless they get to him first. Keep up the good work there.

Only time will tell if this happens, but it may pay for some of those trying to get back get the union to lobby this guy as well directly contacting him directly and find out the why's, whats and wherefors.

Duck, I find that rather unfare and to say "legendary" .... not from what I have heard. In fact the current BN manager received quite a pat on the back from me, as he actually handled certain matters rather well.

TTFN

DirtyPierre

23rd Sep 2005, 23:14

Tweety,

If you're talking about Roger, well he got very sick recently (mystery illness) and is no longer the BN Centre manager. He's now doing something else. Currently Steve Shaw is filling the chair while the position has been advertised. It was also advertised externally.

AirNoServicesAustralia

24th Sep 2005, 00:29

Gotta say, this isn't my highest priority, and the cigars are on me!!!:ok:

I didn't belittle procedural control, old "big board" style, or TAAATS, have the utmost respect for that type of ATC. My point was that a guy having worked the sequencing in and out of Dubai, would surely be better utilised on at the very least a busy arrivals sector, or even better Approach. Yes you fill the jobs that are needed, but from all reports Approach is short, and is getting shorter, so why not use that experience there.

Anyway not wanting this to be a slinging match, but be constructive. Hopefully common sense will prevail one day. Cheers all.

PPRuNe Radar

24th Sep 2005, 01:18

Some English lessons needed for some methinks. Figures of speech and verbs :ok: Plus our humour and culture is pretty different too.

The '**** Off' was aimed at the concept as opposed to individuals. Which is kind of why my post didn't target any individual nor an individuals post. If it was an imperative verb I'd have been using, then it would have identified who I was aiming the order to '**** off' at. For example, I might have used '**** off Tweety' :D Instead, in much the same way as when the Government says they are putting the tax up on beers, UK citizens will say '**** right off', then I say the same to the idea which was mooted by others on the thread. It doesn't make my opinion right or wrong, just that I can have an opposite one if I so choose and be robust about it if it's a highly held opinion of mine. As can others (regardless of whether they agree or oppose my view) if they choose to play the ball and not the man. Perhaps Jerricho came across that type of phrase during his 'sentence' in the UK ? Particularly if he was involved in any union pay negotiations !!

My stereotype of Aussies is shattered now though, there's some fluffy sensitive ones out there too it seems :ok:

Anyhow, the debate has raised lots of issues and food for thought, with opinions and experiences from a broad spectrum, which is the whole idea of a Forum like this. Perhaps a poll would give an idea of the level of support for the various options being talked about ........

so to you on behalf of the rest of the forum, I say "**** off".

Thanks Tweety, did you take a vote on that .. or was it just a gut feeling that you were a natural spokesman for all the rest ?? Take a chill pill.

PPrune Radar you really need to get out more

You're right Barra .. been spending wayyyy too much time watching Test cricket

:E

Barra Tuesday

24th Sep 2005, 02:02

Damn that blasted cricket (at least you didn't bring up the rugby!!!):{ :{ Definitely not fluffy and sensitive; just forgot to use those smily things to convey the intent of what I was saying!!!

AirNoServicesAustralia

24th Sep 2005, 03:52

While watching the cricket PPRuneRadar, did you happen to find time to flick over to the football (soccer) and see some game that occured against Northern Ireland??? I heard there was a bit of an upset:hmm:

PPRuNe Radar

24th Sep 2005, 05:25

Indeed I did ... and being a Celt, the result pleased me greatly :ok:

WhatWasThat

24th Sep 2005, 06:44

I for one would welcome the return of experienced Aus ATCs from OS. With the baby boomers starting to retire we need all the experience we can get.
I dont see why we need be punitive or snotty about them coming back on an increment commensurate with their experience either.
Even if it were possible to train a journeyman for less (and it isnt) there is still a world of difference between a new chum with 5 minutes experience and someone with 5, 10 or 15 yrs behind them.
One point of order though - forget about Approach ANSA, BIGHT group for you, BAROSSA at best but the approach jobs have a fairly long waiting list and the line starts somewhere behind me.:D:p

AirNoServicesAustralia

24th Sep 2005, 09:08

WhatWasThat, therein lies the reason I will be here for another 3 years at least. That and the beer is cold and the weather is great here. Not to mention the job is great fun. Maybe by the time 3 years comes round, the staff shortage will be a crisis, but we'll have to wait and see. By then though, thanks to Mr Howards Industrial Relations "reforms"(:yuk: ), the only package on offer may be a 50 hour week, in return for a bowl of rice, and regular whippings to improve morale.

divingduck

24th Sep 2005, 18:46

Ferris...

loyalty goes both ways old son, I mean I managed to put together 17 years with AsA (and all it's previous incarnations) before going o/s...how many did you do before going o/s and making use of that very expensive training?

That current HATCO (or whatever he is called now) Jason H if it is still him, was an up through the ranks kind of guy, I seem to remember him being an Aussie too, or is that not a high enough for you?

(unless it's a different guy, he started as a Flight Data in Adelaide)

"Hoody" in Melbourne is also an up through the ranks guy.

but lets not let facts get in the way of a good rant.

ps back in my dim distant past several guys went o/s for 2 or 3 years leave without pay and came back to their old slots..that happened to be above most of the rest of us given their time in job.

ferris

24th Sep 2005, 21:03

Duck.....
Loyalty; fantastic about that 17 years- and it counts for......? Whats your point? That you were loyal? Right up until the day you left....
Loyalty is definately a 2 way street, which is why AsA receive the exact amount of loyalty they display to their staff. If the traffic numbers drop, how long do you think it would be before IVR was on the table? They have been champing at the bit to get rid of DTI for ages, and for what? The controller's benefit? I'm tipping it's in order to reduce controller jobs. That's just the tip of the 'loyalty' iceberg.

I think the 2 guys you mention would be the first to tell you that they are not senior management. There is not a single (ex-)controller in senior management, that is why they have the 'executive committee' to advise them on matters ATC. Fact.

ps. The rest of your rant just doesn't make sense. Is the thought of an approaching ramadan getting to you?

Fox3snapshot

24th Sep 2005, 21:39

Riiiiiight, one thing I have got out of these exchanges is that.....ASA might not be a happy option :uhoh: oooooooo-kay then, so what are we left with :confused:

I was thinking of selling Tuppaware or perhaps Amway....does anyone have the number for that....I might need it :ugh:

The Euronator

25th Sep 2005, 13:15

Diving Duck,

Check you PM's

AirNoServicesAustralia

25th Sep 2005, 16:00

Come on DD, you seriously consider HATCO senior management???? Prior to Jason they had Adrian Dumass in the job. The man that said we didn't need to worry about procedural tolerances when deciding how wide the E corridor to Mildura had to be, because " the aircraft is where they say they are". Hmmm.

But on loyalty DD, I did 7 years and left not out of a lack of loyalty, but a lack of opportunities. The same old brown noses got the project jobs, and the rest of us were left to rot on quiet to medium traffic level area sectors for the rest of our natural life. You could only hope that after about 15 years service you get a pissant promotion to team leader where you ... well what do you do??!!

Deep down though I know I will go back to Australia some day, and I would like to keep doing the job I love, but instead of being penalised as a "splitter", I would hope I may be rewarded for the added knowledge and experience I have got, by getting off my arse and trying to improve myself as a controller. But also deep down I know that the jealousy from the same guys that have told me "yeh..I'd like to go overseas to work but... but.... but...." will prevail, and the guys coming back will be disadvantaged.

divingduck

25th Sep 2005, 16:44

ANSA

Well I have to admit that HATCO would be considered a senior guy to me...but what do I know?

Adrian, never heard of him, so I can't judge on his competence or otherwise, but I was on course with Jason and he is pretty switched on...for an SA/NT guy
:}
As a "splitter" or Leaver as I would like to be known, you are always going to get the sh!t jobs to begin with, but remember, that is only at the beginning of your time back home.

As the seal said (piniped to you illiterates) you will be stood in great stead when you return the first TL slot that comes up. I mean, who on earth that has stayed behind is going to roll you? You have the same ratings that they have now (considering you are back and fully rated, or not as the case may be), they have probably spent their entire careers in one group. You have your old rating and experience which WILL count, as well as you o/s time. The guys that stayed behind really stand no chance.

This has been borne out time and time again in the past. I see no reason that it will not continue to be the same.
If, however you have ferris's and others attitudes that the AsA simply MUST emply you in the spot of your choosing, you are not on the same planet as the rest of us.

ferris old son, Ramadan worries me not a jot, and after all this will be number 8 for me here. I seem to be able to manage, thanks for your concern:rolleyes:

I did notice (as did probably everyone else) that you din't answer the question of how much time you had done in OZ to garner your bitter attitude?
I guess it wasn't very long, so my question to you is who the hell are you to speak about loyalty? You obviously have no concept of it's real meaning. And who screwed you that you are so bitter?
did they not promote you as quickly as you thought proper? After a half a dogwatch, they were probably within their rights?

I do however take exception to your calling my rant a rant that made no sense?

I'll give you a tip from a somewhat more experienced viewpoint, take it or leave it I really couldn't care less...

ATC's dislike management

:oh: :oh:

You can quote me on that too. I haven't ever been to a place, heard of, or spoken to anyone that doesn't think they could do a better job as boss.
It goes with the badge.
You can either think about that or be the bitter little person that you really don't wish to become.

Take several chill pills and call me in 3 or 4 days:}

AirNoServicesAustralia

25th Sep 2005, 17:32

No I have no problem with Jason (apart from not being the most exciting batsman to watch :E ). He always was straight with me, and did what he said he would, which is a rare commodity amongst ASA managers. But, HATCO wouldn't be classed as an executive position, and to be honest I don't know whether the Centre manager would be considered senior or junior to HATCO. Anyway beside the point really.

As far as being employed in the spot of your choosing, that is not what I would expect. What I was saying was that if you have just spent 5 years working 500 movements a day on a sector the size of one in Australia that handles 100 a day, surely, rather than sending you to that Oz sector, it would be better resource management to send you to a busier radar sector, and yes that may in fact be an approach sector.

I know that guys in Australia will say "there is a line for approach and it starts behind me", but really shouldn't selection for approach be done on merit. That is experience, and ability, in effect, selecting those people most likely to suceed in their training on approach. I don't expect to be put into positions more senior than my colleagues from my era, but I would think it makes sense to best utilise the skills I have gained from my experience in a busier overseas centre.

And as far as getting a TL job when you get back, due to being better qualified due to your O/S experience, it didn't happen last I heard. A few years back one of my colleagues in UAE, went back from Bahrain, and patiently waited for the first TL job to come up, and even though he hard far more experience, and aced everything else in the process, was told that he didn't get the job, because they had heard bad reports of him from a couple of his colleagues in the group. One of these colleagues was the guy who did get the job. Some groups in Melbourne have and always will be a mates club, and that group involved in Sydney arrivals from the West, is the worst of the lot. For that reason, I guess you can call me sceptical of how much benefit my O/S experience will give me, in any future I have with ASA.

Jerricho

25th Sep 2005, 17:50

but the approach jobs have a fairly long waiting list and the line starts somewhere behind me

Lets pretend that some form of experienced controller program was implemented by AirServices. If there is the shortage of bums on seats, if somebody was an approach controller elsewhere why not utilise that skill? To echo ANSA, I'm not talking about people striding in with any sort of seniority or thinking they are saving the world, simply the use of experience and knowledge to provide a service a person is licenced to provide.

ferris

25th Sep 2005, 19:15

lame duck
Your rabbitting on about "loyalty" is making an idiot of you.

Perhaps you can't read, but where did I ever claim that
- I was 'loyal to' AsA?
- AsA owed me a job?
- AsA owed me a job of my choosing?
- I deserved a promotion that I didn't get?

Perhaps you are just making things up to fit your 'bitterness' argument?
I decline to answer your question about my AsA service as it would, undoubtedly, compromise anonymity of myself and others who are currently the subject of identity tracking over here.
Furthermore, it is totally irrelevant . Your 17 years service might be viewed as lacking loyalty the moment you resign. Can't you see that? You seem to have a figure in your head that satifies a 'loyalty' badge. AsA seem to have one too, as they have a bonding system now. Best you let them know your thoughts on what is actually 'loyal', because it appears they don't have it right. A dogwatch....please.:rolleyes:

Once again, the point I am trying to make is that 'loyalty' is no longer a concept in operation in business in the western world. AsA clearly demonstrates that they have none for their staff, and expect none in return. The 'training bond' they employ is an economic function.

Even more confusing to those trying to follow your line of 'reasoning', omitting your continued attempts at making this personal, is your logic.As the seal said (piniped to you illiterates) you will be stood in great stead when you return the first TL slot that comes up. I mean, who on earth that has stayed behind is going to roll you? Maybe someone who was "loyal", and didn't leave?
Which way do you want it? Is it better to have 'been loyal', or is it better to have international experience? You bang on and on about how much better it is to have had the variety- belittling the people who were loyal. Then I'll give you a tip from a somewhat more experienced viewpoint That's pretty funny coming from someone who claims to have 25 years in the same job . Experienced at what, exactly? I'll wager I've had 5 totally different jobs to every one you've had. How does your 'variety' argument look upon your 'experience'?

By all means, continue your excellent arguments. When you decide whether loyalty is better than experience, or even what loyalty is, or how it can actually be translated into anything tangible, let us know. I'm laughing on a mouthful of 'chill pills'.The guys that stayed behind really stand no chance. LMAO.:rolleyes:

TrafficTraffic

25th Sep 2005, 20:28

When I left - I was under no illusion what my chances were - and what the deal would be when (and If) I came back.

AsA are under no obligation to offer me a job - nor do I expect to be offered any 'special' deal with regards to position or promotion - I knew that when I left.

Controlling in Aus is totally different to controlling here in Eu, some things I have learnt will help me if I come back - and some will hinder, I know how hard I worked in Aus and here isnt better or worse - just different, the grass isnt greener just a different color.

DP love you.......like a lost brother

Tweety ....wish you were a lost brother

DD good luck.

PPrune Radar - see how good I have been - can I lose my 'Pardoned tag now' :uhoh:

PPRuNe Radar

25th Sep 2005, 23:48

Yeah go on TT ... what would you like as a reward ?? :ok:

DirtyPierre

26th Sep 2005, 02:19

DP love you.......like a lost brother Miss you too mate, but pretty sure I'm coming over for the Rugby World Cup 2007. Must catch up and have an ale or two, or three, or....

DD, agree wholeheartedly with you. You have'nt sent any piccys of the ME lately. Sean will make the Foley-Lewis clan 3 for 3 soon.

wyverns

27th Sep 2005, 07:20

I've been following the conversation with some interest - especially seeing I was mentioned a couple of times :O

I'd add a couple of points in reply to comments:

ANSA
(I mean what sense does it make to send a guy who has just spent a couple of years vectoring his arse off into Dubai, to Brisbane Oceanic?????)

Oceanic is hog heaven - about the only place in the room where I get to do everything that an en-route controller can do. More than enough sequencing and holding (although not as many in a row usually as DXB, and with a bit more room to move:p )

Pinniped
There are several guys that did recently go back, one was from UAE, you should all know him and he was given Oceanic I think.

Now he had also done radar in Oz before leaving and all the UAE redar stuff too, but he wasn\'t unrealistic enough to moan about where he was put. I mean, the company are under no obligation to reemply you.
If they have a shortage on TOPS or Ocean and you want a job, the choice is pretty clear.

Actually, you're pretty close - I was also offered Macquarie, but that was too close to Plazbot :cool: actually, even the same aisle is too close......

Tweety

I know a controller who spent 18 years with ASA who has worked all the old sydney sectors incl the old busy Sy Arr N & S Bn arr S CG app, UAE area, one of The busuiest Toronto sectors (if not oneof the busiest in North America) incl approach and working during the 9/11 terrorist attack, and with all that experience still cant get a job back with ASA

autobiographical? Perhaps you should show them the carpet?

Having done the returning thing, perhaps I could make the following points:

for me, timing is everything - I know that won't be much comfort to Ferris or ANSA or any others looking, but that's the way it worked for me. I just kept in touch and waited for the reasons to change from "there's no jobs here" to "come and see us when you get back"

the training I did on my return was not lengthy - I did have to sit through TAAAAAAATS days 1-9 again :sad: :sad: , but there wasn't much more to it than that

DD - say hello to the English for us

Hi to all in UAE - remember me to the dwarf......

regards

Wyvern :ok:

tobzalp

27th Sep 2005, 14:22

Aisle 3 is the place to be Yo.

DirtyPierre

27th Sep 2005, 14:27

tobzalp, I saw you when I walked in just 1&1/2 hours ago for the doggo. Are you still up at home sitting in front of the computer?

GO TO BED!

tobzalp

27th Sep 2005, 14:45

Yeah. Looking to stir up the masses on various web sites. I threw you a gang sign as you walked through my turf. The bigger question is WHAT DO YOU HAVE BETWEEN THOSE!!

Back on topic, Airservices is offering many project type gigs to ex controllers if you are keen people. I know first hand (well technically second) of a person offered 3 just this week.

celeritas

27th Sep 2005, 15:18

Hey Tob, would this be the same ex-controller who was home visiting just very recently and went to visit one of the Centers to catch up with a few of the ex work mates. Word has it that the Center Manager wanted to speak to this person while he was there about coming back (because they were so short) but couldn't get away from a meeting to do so!!

tobzalp

27th Sep 2005, 15:19

No. This ex controller wishes to stay just that and was approached by AsA with no actual interest shown.

Tweety

28th Sep 2005, 12:45

Traffic

Good to see you are about still. Thought you had fallen off the planet.

I am your lost brother, really, ah yes I remember those days, still haven't forgotten the old times. I do miss those days my friend.

drop me a PM and touch base mate!

To Wyverns

No not autobiographical, just fact provided by the colleague concerned. Although this is the second time someone has mentioned carpets (not sure why), so I will have to ask some more enquiring questions as to why this is so!!

It would seem that I may not have the whole story, but then who can you really believe on this or any other website, controllers are known for spreading a lot of incorrect goss to further their own ends!

TTFN

divingduck

28th Sep 2005, 20:44

Gee I seemed to hit the “bitter little person” pretty well didn’t I?
I haven’t rabbited on about loyalty, after all, I left probably before you joined after your 5 extraordinary jobs.
BTW I had worked in this industry in Oz in 2 jobs…in 6 different places, not that that matters one way or the other.
Ohhh I forgot, I used to have a paper round and work on a farm and was a clerk too…BFD!
But then pulling pints and working as a “bouncer” really assists in the field of ATC I guess?
Try listening to your rants yourself…you seem to play the man as soon as someone has the temerity to disagree with your point of view. Perhaps a clue to a past career, or perhaps why you have had 5 different ones?
As if anyone would actually care who you are?
My mentioning of the time I served in OZ, was purely to show that I had actually “done my time” and was not one of those that does half a dogwatch (which was the snipe anyway, it doesn’t seem that you had done a full one) starts bitching and moaning and then goes somewhere else to do the same thing.
As TT said, when we all left Oz back in the dim dark past, we were told that we would never be reemployed by AsA again…we left with that in mind, and still went.
Do you see any of us making any mention of how busy we are, how much experience we have and that IF, we ever go back to Oz, we should be able to cherry pick where we go?
Clearly not.
Actually AsA would be showing a bit of loyalty to their staff by putting returnees into the sh!t jobs in TOPS and Ocean etc, what I want to know is why do you think the training bond is a bad idea?
If you work for an airline and they pay for your training/endorsement, you are usually bonded to them until such time as they determine you have paid their investment back.
Anyway enough of this BLP. Perhaps he can go onto a 6th career and leave the rest of us alone?
TT thanks for the good wishes, had a beer with the “skippy” in the unit. Charlie says to say hi. Had a good time for a couple of days, moule Provencale and blonde German beer, under the poplars, next to the Notre Dame…ahh, then back here L
Tweety, edit your post…don’t say “I” unless you want people to know who you are!!!

DP…haven’t caught any fish worth mentioning for bl00dy ages, so no decent photos!! Now that I’m back I’ll give the tuna a bit of a tickle up. Someone nailed a 150kg black marlin here the other day….that would look good on the wall!
But I do have a new digital camera and housing for underwater work, so I’lll play with that too.
Euronator…
They won’t wear Oz as a point of hire( still we can see what we can see)…but first class train tickets through Turkey can’t be cheap!!
Fox3..you know you don’t want to be in Oz…admit it, you are only 4 hours from Cyclones Disco in MCT.

Wyverns...how the hell are you old mate?
Be nice or I'll post the photos of you halfway up a jebel for all to see how unfit you are!

AirNoServicesAustralia

29th Sep 2005, 01:02

Ok a couple of things DD. Unlike you when I left, I was told by the Centre manager at the time, and the then FIR manager (now HATCO), that if I ever want to come back, to circumvent HR, and go straight to them and I would be welcomed back. I guess I was loyal enough.

Secondly, the whole training bond idea is an absolute joke, because noone will employ you overseas with less than 5 years experience anyway.

Finally, I'll say again, I am not wanting to "cherry pick", the good jobs, and I for one am not calling TOPS or Oceanic, "**** Jobs", as I have worked the old big board full procedural, and it is a hell of a job. I was just saying that having done full on radar sequencing in a very tight, confined airspace for all this time, I would have thought the best use of those skills would be to be placed on a busy arrivals group, or (shock, horror!) maybe even TMA.

Bottom line (so I can finish this argument up and let you get back to fishing stories, cos we are all glued to the screen with fascination), and getting back to the original question, what it would take me to go back is,

1. A level of pay consistent with my level of experience as an ATC'er.
2. A posting that recognises and uses my abilities and experience as an ATC'er.

Nothing more, nothing less.

ferris

29th Sep 2005, 06:23

DDTry listening to your rants yourself…you seem to play the man as soon as someone has the temerity to disagree with your point of view Pot to kettle, pot to kettle....
I'm yet to see where you have done anything other than make personal attacks. Not much else in your posts. You make a lot of stuff up, but don't address what's put to you.
There are people who do care very much who the various people posting are. They are big into shooting the messenger rather than hearing the message. You should know that. Or is all that FIGJAM clouding your vision?
By all means, continue with your faulty logic and mud slinging. Making yourself very popular with the "sh!t jobs" comments.Do you see any of us making any mention of how busy we are, how much experience we have and that IF, we ever go back to Oz, we should be able to cherry pick where we go? Yes, I do. Is that the royal "WE "? eg.As the seal said (piniped to you illiterates) you will be stood in great stead when you return the first TL slot that comes up. I mean, who on earth that has stayed behind is going to roll you? So yes, YOU are saying that. I , once again, have said no such thing. You keep trying to say that I have, when the only person saying it is yourself.
Read the thread thru and see who started the mud-slinging. Might be 'mirror time' for you.what I want to know is why do you think the training bond is a bad idea? If the job was attractive, the T&Cs good, workplace harmonious etc, why would you need a bond? Obviously there is something wrong if people can't wait to fly the coop. Organisations that employ bonds know they are offering something sub-standard and have to use artificial means to retain staff. Flies in the face of the 'free-market' philosophies expounded by those who made AsA a 'business'. If they really believe their own rhetoric, why would they artificially stifle the 'free-market' of labour? Those (left) in the M.E. are about to receive big payrises due to those market forces, as the shortage bites. As read in the ME forum about the EK bond, airline employers of choice (such as CX) don't bond their pilots. So yes, whilst some employers use bonds, look at who they are. Likewise, you don't see many guys bailing out of Eurocontrol at their first opportunity. AUH ACC now has a 2-year bond for new-joiners, and they aren't training you up from anywhere. Says a lot really.

Quokka

30th Sep 2005, 09:15

Good things come to those who wait...

No-one has mentioned the TCU Consolidation Project; Adelaide, Perth and Sydney WILL be moved to Melbourne regardless of how fluid the timing of each event may be, and the Approach controllers required will have to come from somewhere...

But worth keeping in mind what a Manager whispered in my ear... Sydney do not want to train interstate controllers for the move... they want Ab-initio Approach trainees (possibly read as ex-RAAF controllers, although those are my thoughts only).

Good luck to those seeking to return to Oz... best wishes for those happy in paradise... wherever your paradise may be... :ok:

Jerricho

30th Oct 2006, 13:26

Wow.

Who dug up this old thread and voted?

cat man do

30th Oct 2006, 16:09

ferris, your igonrance knows no bounds. Your knowledge of business is intensly poor. Firstly, the fact that you have so much 'experience' outside ATC does not bode well for you....."jack of all trades, master of none", experience is also gained by being good at what you do. The mere fact that you consider modern business principals, aka free market philosophies as being equal to both parties is ridiculous. Do you honestly mean to tell us all that companies really care that much for their employees before they consider their own profit margins, get real. Bonds are there to protect a company's interests whether they are training or relocation costs. The concept of 'free market' is that employees are free to move, any company not providing some sort of protection of this is foolish. Sure, we can all try and grasp the 'tree hugging' philosophy of THE COMPANY LOVES ME THEREFORE WILL GIVE ME A WARM FUZZY FEELING WHEN I WALK THROUGH THE DOORS feeling but in the end the company is looking after it's own interst and will use whatever method proves to be the cheaper alternative based on a cost to company formula.

One day you may actually stay with something long enough to grasp these small basics, in the mean time Good Luck.

Cat out
:zzz:

RAC/OPS

1st Nov 2006, 09:15

WhatWasThat, check yr PM's!!

Hempy

2nd Nov 2006, 07:56

Sadly .. I probably agree with ASA :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Someone leaves my company (for better or worse), they go off to foreign or national pastures and spend some years earning much more than me and better benefits (potentially). Then for whatever reason they come back and expect the company which employ us both to pay us the same salary ... yeah right.

Loyalty and seniority still has a price I hope. Mercenaries who go off in search of wilder dreams and pay get no less respect for doing so, but expecting to come back on the same salary and seniority as others of their generation who stuck with it ?? **** off. ;)

Not to mention the fact that ASA have (in most cases recently) spent 3 to 4 hundred grand to train someone who then decides that the golden $ is too much of a lure and says "thanks for training me up, I'll be off now". And then have the gall to say "I'm a much better controller for leaving, now I want to come back to the best country in the world, but only if I get more money than the people with the same amount of service". Talk about having your cake and eating it too

ferris

2nd Nov 2006, 11:53

Actually, Cat, I reckon it might be you who doesn't have much clue. It's good that you demonstrate your contempt for the idea that human capital might be important. Gives the 'prospectives' an idea of what to expect when they get there- management from the dark ages.
Do a google search for 'human capital' and see what drops out. Might drag you into the 80's!!
While you are there, try a definition of 'free market'. Is it really that wild an idea that it might apply equally to employers, as employees? Read what Scott Voight is saying about people not showing up for courses etc., and think about what you are spouting. When you have a bit of a read about what happens in well-run companies (clearly you've never worked at one), you might find out that a main driver of satisfaction is not $$, it's feeling valued and respected, being able to contribute- shocking, pinko "'tree hugging' philosophy", but there you go. Much easier for talentless fish in small ponds- like yourself- to expound the virtues of bonds, isn't it?

ps Are you in the habit of replying to posts a year after they are written?:D

Hempy- who is asking for "more money"? Do you really think service more important/valuable than experience?

AirNoServicesAustralia

3rd Nov 2006, 01:48

Hempy you really think the training finishes at the end of the supposed $300,000 course they give you? The training as an Air Traffic Controller should never stop, and is an ongoing constant process. By leaving Australia and going to a much busier, intense part of the world ATC wise, the individuals are accelerating that training process. From a personal point of view, in Australia I would never be issuing NOTAMS, grounding unairworthy aircraft, filing incident reports, and sequencing a trail of 20 or 30 aircraft with no help from a FLOW or any FLOW tools(ie. deciding the sequence myself and achieving it myself) all in one shift. There are valid arguments to say we shouldn't be doing that here either, but the fact remains we are, and so as a result of that, we are more experienced than our fellow controllers of the same years experience who stayed back in Australia.

If you look at this from AirServices point of view, yes they have spent money initially training us up, and in return we have given at least 5 years service before leaving. But what they are getting back by reemploying us on a salary that recognises our experience and ability, is not only a controller that has that original training and 5 years experience, but also a lot of qualifications and training that they didn't have to pay for. They get a controller who has been on an incident investigation course, a Centre Supervisor course, a Crtical Incident Stress Management course, and someone who has backed those courses up with extensive practical experience in each of those areas. I would say from Airservices point of view, they should be rubbing there hands together at the prospect of getting a freebie such as this.

As Ferris said we are not necessarily expecting more money, but we are expecting to be paid a salary that recognises our knowledge and experience. If that is hard for the guys who stayed in Oz to swallow, well stiff.

jumpuFOKKERjump

3rd Nov 2006, 03:05

I missed this thread the first time round and have just spent a pleasurable 30 min absorbing the whole thing. It was worth it for the "****-off" from the moderator alone:}

said the ****-offer:
"I don't have any objection with people being paid the market rate, but why should they step right back in to career progression and seniority as though they had never even left ??"

You would have to admit that seniority counts for nothing here. Another angle, I have noticed a few faces reappearing from the sandpit, then dissappearing again. Maybe they were bored. Perhaps ASA is not willing to spend the extra time/money training an exexpat on TMA for them to just take the rating back to the sandpit on completion? I think it is reasonable for ASA to park exexpats in positions of convenience for a sufficient time to discover if they have really returned, or are just wanting a paid holiday, paid professional development or will be dissatisfied with their lot and, erm, ****-off.

ANSA says:
"but we are expecting to be paid a salary that recognises our knowledge and experience"

Judging by the last CA, the ATC here have no such qualms and continue the race for the bottom. Please keep up your high standards which will maximise my income. I understand those expats that do return do so at a negotiated rate. Not the bottom of the scale, not the top. Think of all the fun of waiting for increments again.

"I'm a much better controller for leaving"

Practically a "wise man from the east...":8

Got a good laugh out of Cat Poo, lay off the catnip pal:zzz:

Hempy

3rd Nov 2006, 03:28

jumpuFOKKERjump

3rd Nov 2006, 05:54

...sequencing a trail of 20 or 30 aircraft with no help from a FLOW or any FLOW tools(ie. deciding the sequence myself and achieving it myself) all in one shift. Help? Is the flow there to help me? What a concept:}

I wouldn't push the aggressive loner thing, we are into group hugs at the end of the shift these days...

AirNoServicesAustralia

3rd Nov 2006, 06:21

Hempy, if I was able to make a decision of where I live based purely on ATC and enjoyment of work, I would never leave here. Some may say ATC has evolved in Australia whereas ATC here is still like the old days where you plug in and push the metal around till you get em in a straight line and fling em to approach. May be old fashioned but for me its a hell of a lot more fun.

Ability and experience are not the same thing, you are right Hempy, but if you are constantly working high levels of traffic safely, then surely that person would be able to be sent to a similarly busy sector back in Australia and slot in without too many problems. Speaking with guys who have returned recently, their time over here has helped them out immensely, and traffic levels have been the least of their problems. Learning to say "QANTAS-THIRTYTWO-TWENTY" or whatever it is you guys say these days has been a problem though, and sweating over the fact that you will be suspended for SHOCK HORROR! being late with some coordination is another thing to get used to after being in a place where if coordination is late, you apologise and if no problem came of it, it is logged and you keep working.

Just one last thing for JFOKKERJ, I know of one expat that went back and then left again. You may know of more but it hasn't been a lot thats for sure. The guy in question that I know of, was yes, firstly frustrated at the restraints placed on him in regards to handling high traffic loads all in the name of "protecting the roster", but also frustrated at the Team Leader position in his group being given to someone else with less experience and qualifications, because the person deciding on the job was told by the succesful candidate that our ex-expat was not a team player and not good for the job. Thats right, the ex-expats competitor for the job, not surprisingly doesn't give the ex-expat a glowing reference for the team leader job, so our ex-expat misses out. Hempy you would know first hand all about how that particular group works. It is not a lack of loyalty or just wanting a paid holiday back home that makes ex-expats leave, it is the frustration that the reasons we left in the first place are still there or worse than ever, and thats not a money issue, but a massive mismanagement, a lack of job satisfaction, and a lack of career developement issue.

leftseatview

3rd Nov 2006, 06:51

Hi AirNoServicesAustrailia,

Any idea what happened to your "Indair Airindia RT" thread in the Middle East forum?

i ask because i had posted a response.

Wonder if the moderator yanked of the thread fearing public unrest!

Talk to you again at DXB:)

leftseatview

3rd Nov 2006, 07:25

a bit like dialing the wrong frequency i guess!

AirNoServicesAustrailia,
i did find your response,thanks for doing your bit to try and prevent that thread from becoming an excuse for a racial slinging match.

Now back to the correct forum for further stuff on this topic!

The Euronator

3rd Nov 2006, 07:41

Hempy,
Not to mention the fact that ASA have (in most cases recently) spent 3 to 4 hundred grand to train someone who then decides that the golden $ is too much of a lure and says "thanks for training me up, I'll be off now". And then have the gall to say "I'm a much better controller for leaving, now I want to come back to the best country in the world, but only if I get more money than the people with the same amount of service". Talk about having your cake and eating it too

As the voting above suggests, no-one has suggested that they return and "earn more money than the people with the same amount of service".
One thing should not be forgotten though, that is , many individuals left from the Top of FPC and some have been offered Top of journeyman. Sorry, but in my book that is a demotion. There are many cases in ASA where people would like to leave, but due to personal circumstances are unwilling or unable to leave. Some people have seen people leave and come back and have realised their opportunity to do something has just vanished and therefore the " Sour Grapes " issue rears it's ugly head.

You know what you should be arguing for in the next EBA, the setup of an Exchange Program

For me, I made the decision to leave , I took all the risk of not checking out , I took the risk of never being able to return, and it is the best thing I have ever done. Whether I elect to return is debatable, as I see the same issues still abundant in ASA as when I joined in the late 80's. Some issues will always remain eg. the anally retentive way that certain grades of incidents are handled, the fear that management put into controllers with regards to having incidents etc., I am glad I am not there and fingers crossed will never be there again.

AirNoServicesAustralia

3rd Nov 2006, 07:57

As you have been at pains to explain, you are working traffic levels now that you would never see in Australia. If this is the case, why would Airservices need to pay you more to control traffic in Aus
Without this becoming a "mine is bigger than yours" argument, I find it funny that you say "if" this is the case. Mate, UAE centre handles over 36,000 movements a month, with a maximum of 18 controllers working in a 24 hour period (3 shifts, 6 controllers per shift (sometimes down to 5 if shortstaffed as we are often)). Those 6 controllers man 4 permanent sectors and one holding sector that gets opened for peak periods when holding is required. The Centre supervisor is also one of those 6 (or maybe 5). To put that number of aircraft into perspective, that is the same number of movements, Melbourne airport, Adelaide airport, Canberra airport and Perth airport have combined per month. All done daily by 3 shifts of (if we are lucky) 6 controllers. Cheers.
And I never said Airservices should pay me more, I said they should pay me what I am worth, in relation to my experience and training. Being a 10 year controller, 4 of those in a high density arrivals departure radar environment, I should be paid what a 10 year controller in a high density arrivals/departures environment in Australia is paid. If you don't think that is fair then we will have to agree to disagree.

And just to clarify this is not to belittle the job Aussie controllers do, or the difficulty of their job, as they have challenges we don't have to face, eg. limited radar coverage, a very labor intensive ATC system taking focus time away from the radar screen, and as Euronator said, a way of grading the seriousness of incidents like nowhere else in the world, where a controller can never have a reduction but be suspended over and over again due to coordination errors.

My point is and always has been that the experience I have gained overseas is of value to Airservices and as such they should pay me as my experience warrants.

And to second Euronators comments about an exchange program. I think Australian ATC would benefit greatly from such a program as it would open a lot of eyes to different ways of "skinning the cat", as well as exposing ATC'ers to a lot of things they will rarely if ever see in Australia.

DirtyPierre

5th Nov 2006, 05:11

Hi ANSA,

It's interesting to reread this thread after some time has passed. I agree with you about coming back a better controller, and what you should be paid.

The only issue is that AsA is run by career managers who try to run a safety service organisation like any other business. Unfortunately, safety is expensive. Sure, not nearly as expensive as an accident, but its hard to prove on a ledger for an accountant, so they won't believe you. This narrow, blinkered view is also evident in their treatment of Oz controllers returning to Oz.

Because of this mentality and their lack of CDF, we're unlikely to see a change in the current policy.

AirNoServicesAustralia

5th Nov 2006, 17:38

Hey DP, from what I have heard from other expats returning, and their dealings with managers, for the most part (there is an exception), it hasn't been the managers that were the problem in all this. They have been very keen to employ the experienced guys from overseas, and pay them accordingly, because they then know they will have in a few months time a validated, extremely valuable person on the roster, rather than hoping an ab-initio checks out and then wait at least 3 years or so, for that journeyman to be really worthwile on the roster.

What seems to be the real stumbling block in all this is the attitudes of the controllers who have stayed in Oz. There is a huge amount of sour grapes or jealousy, or anger (I don't know which emotion it is), amongst alot of the controllers towards the returning ex-expats, and so if the managers offer for example a 10 year controller, what a 10 year controller is getting paid in Oz there would be mutiny amongst some of the troops. Yes we could be seen as having been disloyal by jumping ship, but on the flip side we could be looked upon favourably (as we would be in a lot of other industries) as having taken it upon ourselves to stretch ourselves professionally and gain skills we would not have if we'd stayed in Australia.

Anyway this whole discussion is pretty irellevant because there is one big thing I have learned while working here in the Middle East, and that is the Market decides what you are worth. If as a lot of people are saying, Air Services are heading for a staffing crisis (as most other countries are going through right now) in the ATC field, then experienced, ready to go controllers will become more and more valuable to them, and we will be able to play a bit harder to get. If on the other hand they find themselves flush with staff, then we will have to get on our hands and knees and grovel to get our job back at whatever rate is on offer. I personally think, from their track record in the past (ie. Voluntary redundancy....staff shortage....VR...staff shortage.....VR....staff shortage etc.) there will come a point when the crunch will come and we will become very very valuable to them. We will see.

Brocky

5th Nov 2006, 19:34

What's the point of having your cake if you can't eat it?

Jealousy, envy and anything else associated to that type of emotion is an ugly thing.

Yes! People should be paid what they are worth whether they have been with the company 20 minutes or 20 years based on their experience. Who cares what the othet person next to you is earning? If you have been with ASA for 20 years and are getting paid accordingly and I step into the seat next you with 20 years experience and get paid the same but have only been with the company for 6 months and fully rated - WHO CARES?!!!

If that gets peoples noses out of joint then it is nothing more than immaturity. I just don't get that sort of mentality.

And if ASA don't want to pay the bucks then they don't get the experience unless one wants to accept the unbalanced pay as a trade-off for the Australian lifestyle.

I'ts evident ASA are hurting but they will never admit it.

You get what you pay for! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

DirtyPierre

6th Nov 2006, 22:35

ANSA,

Jealousy, no way...except if you're goose in Europe and can get to the RWC2007.

Yes, AsA are heading for a staffing crisis. In the next 6 - 12 months it will become critical.

tobzalp

7th Nov 2006, 02:36

There is a huge amount of sour grapes or jealousy, or anger (I don't know which emotion it is), amongst alot of the controllers towards the returning ex-expats
You are kidding right? This is most likely the most rediculous thing I have seen you put on this site. I can assure you, that there is absolutely no feeling of the kind towards people returning form OS. Interestingly, many of the guys who did pack up and leave (not all of course) were not the most popular amongst their work mates to start with. I would expect that any reports you may have heard have been more of 'Oh crap, not him again'.

The Euronator

7th Nov 2006, 07:34

Tobzalp
Interestingly, many of the guys who did pack up and leave (not all of course) were not the most popular amongst their work mates to start with.

I hope that wasn't reference to me ? I still curse the days I had to train you :}

tobzalp

7th Nov 2006, 07:50

Hah. I am an idiot trainee again as we speak. I think it is pretty obvious who fits into what pidgeon hole. I think I was initially unfair with my 'many' comment above. I amend it to 'some' after reflection. Most of the guys are good blokes. Except Eurogoose that is:ok:

DirtyPierre

7th Nov 2006, 08:23

Hey tobzalp (respect),

how's it going using the 3nm standard. You'll get good at talking to PJE operators as well.

Back to the topic, which has caused some amount of discussion within Aisle 3 at BN. Wyverns reckons that he and the others he knows who have returned from os did not receive any negative feedback, emotion, reaction from the guys who remained behind.

Chips and shoulders perhaps ANSA?

RAC/OPS

7th Nov 2006, 08:41

Well I'm wiling to give it a go! Have submitted my application on line but apart from the (automatic?) response heard nothing so far. Someone said it might be a good idea to approach the centre/towers manager directly. Anyone care to pm me with some email addresses please? Then, assuming I get a job I can let all the others know what really happens to returnees. bit like the 4400! :)

AirNoServicesAustralia

7th Nov 2006, 09:59

I guess I am basing my comment on speaking to one of those guys that went back and then left again. I don't think he was particularly unpopular but he said that anytime he mentioned "in the Middle East we do it this way", as in maybe we could try skinning the cat a different way, rather than in a condascending way, the guys in his group got their backs up. And the day he was asked to split sectors cos he had 4 aircraft on frequency, and "if we don't split em we will lose staff off the roster", to which he sacreligeously replied "well maybe we could afford to lose some staff off the roster", that was it for him. So yes whilst you Tobzalp may not personally feel any jealousy or sour grapes towards returning expats, I don't think you can speak for every colleague in your centre, or the one to the Sth.

The Euronator

7th Nov 2006, 18:19

Dirty Pierre,

Individual Tickets for RWC2007 come on sale 9th November. Might just have to saunter over to Cardiff & down to Marseille for the day...Why, because I can :} :}

Unfortunately I will be back in Aus when the cricket WC is on in Jamaica & Barbados, because that was definitely on the cards...Oh well 2 WC in 2 years is not bad. Managed to see 4 games at the Football World Cup including England v Portugal 1/4 Final ( Poor Poms ).

Brocky

8th Nov 2006, 05:36

This is developing into an interesting discussion because when I visited Brissy Centre recently this year it wasn't a happy place and the managers (office, centre isle and main desk) indicated it was only getting and will continue to get worse until a radical change was made higher up. Upper management attitude towards staff, how the job is done etc is just so anally retentive, it's indicative of a severely authoritarian style and lacks just plain common sense towards developing simple, honest and open relationships with staff on the floor. :ugh:

Discontent breeds discontent until someone gets hurt. :{

Baileys

15th Jun 2010, 08:15

Good to see things how have improved so much in 4 years....

Plazbot

15th Jun 2010, 08:40

HAhaha. Oh the sands of time. Have a look at DP's comments re: Greg Russell on one of the first pages.

The latest hilarity I heard was that Airservices is calling in hand writing experts to find out who wrote a caption on a picture calling one of the team leaders a monkey! I **** you not!

As for comments about returning, I left with the firm idea in my head that Airservces would not take me back. That may not be the actual case, but all my planning and contingencis are based around never going back. Not saying I will never go back as I am on record on this web site for saying I would never go to the sand either. A few little changes in the employment conditions here and there changed that very quickly.

ferris

15th Jun 2010, 12:16

A fascinating amount of water under the bridge.

Never say never, plaz ;)

thesunnysideup

28th Aug 2010, 13:19

oh yes the monkey story is indeed true. Apparently someonealmost got stood down when innocently bringing in banana lollies on ad a few days later.

peuce

29th Aug 2010, 07:55

If they can afford to stand down Controllers for that ... there mustn't be a shortage anymore!

thesunnysideup

29th Aug 2010, 11:12

Almost got stood down. so there is almost no shortage, right?

peuce

30th Aug 2010, 01:08

Oops! ... I almost read it correctly! :O

MrSandman

11th Sep 2010, 11:24

What I just noticed is that there are 137 people who have voted in this poll. While some may be non OZ ex pat ATCs, that sure is quite the workforce loss to AsA.

AirNoServicesAustralia

13th Sep 2010, 13:25

I would say that 137 is a fair reflection of the numbers who have left over the years. If you count, Ireland, Germany (both operational and training), Eurocontrol, Canada, Hong Kong, Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, UAE Centre, Dubai, Muscat and probably a few more I have missed, each at at least $300,000 a pop in training costs, the drain from ASA has been pretty substantial. The funny thing is you'll find most Aussie Expats would never leave such a beautiful country if they were given a fair go by their employer.

Not the case though hence the mass exodus continues, and most stay away for an extended period.

suffering aussie

15th Oct 2010, 00:22

:E An interesting line to follow but for those of you lucky bastards that got out just sit tight a little longer. Management are now saying we are suddenly not short the 120 staff we were a month ago.However AsA has been under investigation for the last year and the independant but not yet public blasting of AsA management, staff handling etc etc etc will soon be exposed publicly for the truth. Management movement has already started but the next few months should undo the rest of them. Showing the ATC world for the truly lying and incompetent 'beings' that they are...all the way up the line. My hope is that with the lashing comes a higher level of understanding of how much damage these current managers are doing to the company. Their refusal to take back experienced controllers was also looked at with disbelief, our failure rate from the college (sorry 'accademy') currently sitting at around 50%. They have even put a trainee out in the field who never passed the college! (he took only a short time till he tried to put two together but was saved by another controller).
We have been quiet to long, the tide is about to turn...

Plazbot

15th Oct 2010, 11:35

No it's not. :rolleyes:

For every yes man in a seat there are three in waiting. Your suffering will continue unless YOU take steps to change it.

edit

Sorry to doom and gloom there but I have been hearing about the turning tide and how 'we'll get them next time' for decades now. Time and time again, it is the STAFF that hijack themselves. If you are a Civil Air member, go and read the discussion about working additional duties after 10 days that includes sick/grey shifts. Are you kidding me? If ever there was a scenario that would be deemed unreasonable it would be this yet people are falling over themselves to do it.

Now working 6 on 4 of, never been called in on a standby shift (TOUCH WOOD) nor have I been asked to do an overtime EVER. Go back to work operational ATC in OZ? OMGLOL!