civillians in the raf

[i.have.turetes.badly]

Is this true that civillians can join the raf to do certain jobs??
If so can anyone help with this.

[fatjockslim]

Yup, most people applying to join the RAF are civilians! :D

[Bunker Mentality]

ihtb,

Most people who join the RAF are civilians - until after they've joined, anyway.

Hope this helps

BM

[Rakshasa]

;) I assume he means contractors... In which case your either a BAe 'boffin' or the cleaner. :E

[ZH875]

A lot of people in the RAF are wanting to join the civilians.

[southside]

For goodness sake fellas.

This is surely a bite...please tell me its a wind up.

You can be a cleaner, cook, admin, Ops, Pilot, Loadmaster etc etcf...

[plans123]

I hope this is a wind up - if not, try either the army or McDonalds instead, its sounds like you are just what they're looking for!!!! :}

[KPax]

He may be referring to Aviation Officers (AVO's), basically a way of giving Sqn Ldr Air Traffickers a job until they are 60 on £30,000 per year, with their pension and gratuity still intact. I believe it is a sop to civil air traffic unions who do not wish controllers working in military towers alongside Military personnel to wear civvies. To be more accurate it is open to any ex military controllers, however after recent changes in recruitment it sure appears to benefit Sqn Ldr's and above. Once hired you wear Flt Lt uniform but are a civil servant. Most RAF towers have between 2-3.

[plans123]

Don't forget the SGB1&2's who work in towers. Once again a job designed for ex-snco controllers to boost their pensions.

[Pierre Argh]

Kpax... the requirement for an AvO to be a member of the Reserves is in order to comply with the Air Navigation Order and its regulations pertaining to the provision of Air Traffic Services i.e. that you have to have a CAA License or be a member of the Armed Forces. The wearing of uniform is a much more complex issue, but it has NOTHING to do whatsoever with the Civil Service, Trade Unions or the CAA.

I sense bitterness in yours, and the next post by Plans123 when you both talk about pensions? The fact is drawing a pension is necessary to bring the pay up to something approaching the level drawn by an AvO's regular colleagues. On top of which there's no RPD payments, no free accomodation, cheap food, free dental care etc, etc, etc.

But getting back to the original point of this thread... you cannot join the RAF as an AvO, because AvOs aren't in the RAF... they are Civil Servants employed by the RAF. You could apply for a job vacancy, but to stand a chance (either as an ATCO, Flying Instructor etc) you have to have previously completed the service course... or something very similar?

As for Flight Operations Assts... the situation is slightly different, no prior training required, but you will be expected to take and pass the same course as your, soon to be, military colleagues after selection.

(PS there is no such things as an SGB1/2... the grade disappeared about 6-7yrs ago... they are now known as E1 or E2)

[plans123]

well they were SGB1/2's 3 years ago at EGDX!!!

Call them what you will, anyone willing to do the same job as an SAC and get paid nearly half the wage needs their head examined (well unless its to boost their WO's pension!!)

:D

[Molesworth Hold]

I suppose I'm off to get my head examined then. If I'm doing the same job as an SAC, does that mean I can come to work late, half pi$$ed looking like a bag of $hite? Mind you, it could be worse:

Edited as I'm a sensitive soul. :D

[last third]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa,

Sounds like a lot of pu- -ys are hurting. Is this the Professional pilots rumour network(PPRUNE) or the (PPMPHN), the professional pilots my pu- -sy hurts network.

Commercialisation is going to, has and will continue to happen while the beannies are counting the $$$$. Most of the contractors I have seen are ex mil or currently serving mil on leave without pay/long service leave having a look before they cut the cord.

Some of the best pole men I know are contractors and have paid their dues before turning to QFI'ing in the contractor role.

Lasty.



:{

[dopeonarope]

Last Third....... Why are the beannies counting the $$$$$s?

I have been away from the UK for 4 years now and I didn't realise that the UK had got rid of the Pound and had the Dollar as its currency:}

I guess that as you do not spell commercialisation with a Zee instead of an S then you must be Brit not a N American.

Therefore I can only guess you must have a N American keyboard that has no Pound sign (I can't find one on my keyboard therefore I must be at work not home!)

The Army and Navy would all say that the RAF are civllians anyway! Not true, not true.

Hoist to crew winching over and OUT:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

If you have the qualifications to do the civil service job, AvO being just one of them, but you have not previously held the Queen's commission, then you have to undergo selection and training at Cranditz.

This applies to doctors, nurses, dentists and who ever. If they don't cut the mustard then they do not get a commission. No commission, even as a reservist, means no job.

Ergo civilians my apply but thereafter they get commissioned and are no longer plain civilians.

[Ops and Mops]

No commission, even as a reservist

Why do you say that PN? My current Reserve Commission is exactly the same as my Regular Commission bar the name of the service on the scroll. Would you make the same distinction with those commissioned via the WO Commissioning scheme? :rolleyes: :suspect:

[Pierre Argh]

no longer plain civilians
What Milk Chocolate Civilians then?

Under the International Laws of Armed Conflict (embodied in the UK under the Geneva Conventions Act) there's actually no half-way house... You can be either civilian or service.

An AvO's TCoS are undoubtedly on a civilian basis, true they hold a Reserve Commission (in the RAFR Civilian Component, to be precise) and can be subject to Air Force Law, but their terms of employment are iaw Civil Service Regulations.

(Plans123 Ref. your SGB comment, a lot of places still use the old archaric job title... doesn't mean they're right to do it, the correct title is E1 or E2. If your information is 3yrs out-of-date is it wise to post it?)

Final thought... "Inside every Serviceman and woman there's a civilian waiting to get out"

[Pontius Navigator]

Ops and Mops, you mis-read, or I did not make myself clear.

You held a commission therefore getting a reserve commission was a shoo in. Fast track warrant officer conversions do not have to do the full blown IOT but they do have to do OASC to ensure that they will be suitable and responsible as officers.

I stand by what I said, if a doctor, nurse, or civil servant does not cut the mustard then they do not get the uniform. Met class J reserves just might be an exception, I am not sure.

[Ops and Mops]

Hi PN,

I think I misconstrued the tone of your statement as having contempt for those commissioned into the reserves. :confused:

As far as I know, the guys on the MMU are commissioned into the RAFR after also attending OASC and must undertake a 6 month Reserve Officers Initial Training Course (ROIT) within 1 year of commissioning.

"6 months?" i hear you cry! Indeed 6 months as all the objectives of the full IOT course are undertaken on a distance learning basis at Squadron level under the guidance of an appointed Mentor. The course culminates in a 2 week residential phase that includes 5 days Field Leadership, a Field Leadership Camp and a Graduation Ceremony/Lunch at College Hall. All aspects of the course are assessed at OACTU (formerly DIOT) during this phase by the Short Courses/SERE staff. OACTU are at pains to stress that the ROIT course is no longer (was it ever?) an "Knife, Fork and Spoon attendance course", but that Officers can be, and have been chopped or re-coursed at any stage during the 6 month course.

This process, including OASC, is exactly the same for Officers of the R Aux AF and AvO's without previous commissioned experience. I have heard though of one AvO that, on account of previous service, was allowed to undertake the WO Commissioning Course in lieu of ROIT.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ops and Mops, I is one.

Your summary is a more complete one that I simply paraphrased.

The service is keen to ensure that anyone that has a commission and wears the uniform is a fit and true person.

We used to have an MHU sqn ldr int who did a month's frontline duty at ISK each year. I suspect he may have been a teacher. Anyway he was there so often that he was accepted as just another Int O. The only problem was his rank. He was abit more senior that the regular staff although that was no problem.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Not strictly true Pontius...

Conversation I overheard between Sqn boss and Flt Cdr from Ex P!sstaker a few years ago...
"What do you mean he's failed!? You can't fail him, he's only going to be a doctor!"
Think he is a Sqn Ldr now.

[FJJP]

I think the Met Class J is to allow them to be posted around and also to deploy to war zones where other civilians would not be allowed - a sort of reserve status and terms of service.

But I may be wrong....

[Pontius Navigator]

Yeah, I forgot, God can be chopped.

We had one Doc many years ago, can't remember his name, but he was in post at Waddo before he got to Cranditz but he had been through OASC.

OTOH if your Doc was not chopped it just reinforces the opinion - not real officers :).

[Ops and Mops]

More info on "Sponsored Reserves" (basically the old J Class) can be found here (http://www.mod.uk/business/ppp/reserves.htm)

This details the difference in terms of service between RAFR (Civilian Component) and "operational" RAFR.

[Pierre Argh]

Ops & Mops

I think, but am not certain of my facts, that SR and RAFR(CC) are similar concepts, but different in practice. i.e. a Forecaster can work for the MO holding a SR commitment, so whilst working at RAF Fiddling in the Bog is a civil servant (and therefore entitled to wear the forecaster's uniform... tanktop)... and only dons uniform when sent into an operational theatre with the MMU.

Whereas the RAFR(CC) is a Civil Servant who wears uniform to do his daily job because he needs to be a "member of the armed forces" to do so (e.g. ATCO or Flying Instructor), but is unlikely to be sent into theatre unless specifically recalled under RFA96?

(grateful for anyone to correct me if wrong)

[Descend to What Height?!?]

Ops and Mops, Pierre Argh and PN et al.
Correct.
Most members of the MMU are "part time" sponsored reserves.

They have day jobs as weather forecasters, observers and engineers in the Met Office, and are called up into active service to go off on operations and exercises. They have a minimum commitment each year, have to be fully CCS, medical, fitness and IRT current, as in theory they are held at R2. Most part timers do between 2 months and 9 months a year deployed. There are also a few full time sponsored reserve members, who work at HQ, and are in uniform 24/7, meaning they are liable for the same duties as regulars, including duty officer etc. Some full time members are deployed on opperations over 10 months each year to meet the Units commitments to MoD.



Selection for Officers is via Met Office interviews, then the full OASC process. They then do a RAuxAF 2 weeks recruits course befor ROIT. ISS and JOCC then follow later in career. There are moves to get them onto SERE. Other ranks are enlisted as AC's. After recruit training they then follow the standard RAuxAF pattern for promotion, attending the J/I/AMLC along side the regulars to get promoted to Cpl, Sgt etc.


Several years ago, all members were recruited from experience Met Office staff. Now the Met Office has shrunk and gone on to become more of a dot com, that route has all but gone. Most members are now recruited direct from civi street. From their initial Met Office interview to first deployment as a junior forecaster takes over 2 years. This includes military and professional training. Loss/chop rate is well over 50%.

Gone are the days when if the Met Office liked you, the RAF had to acept them. Now everyone has to meet the standard.

For a very small unit, that has opperational commitments resulting in part timers deploying on Ops (NOT Ex's) on avarage 3 months every year, plus Ex, plus training, the valuse HM Armed Forces is getting is high. Reflecting in the Units very high medal count.

[Shagster]

I apologise for "piggybacking " on this thread, but the knowledge I'm looking for appears to be here!

Can anyone tell me where I can find information on the RAFR (CC)? I find the TORs for AVO's to be quite ambiguous.

:confused:

[Descend to What Height?!?]

Shagster
see your PMs

DTWH

[monkeybumhead]

Let's just face it, if the to$$ers in power have their way and things carry on as they are there will be no RAF to employ civvies.

[Tourist]

Have to admit, the other two services have always considered everyone in the crabs to be civilians!:E :E :E

[Pontius Navigator]

At a pongo briefing today the head briefer graciously refered to Tommy Atkins, Jack Tar and Gentlemen Aircrew.

Nice to know a Scots DG recognises other gentlemen.









Gets tin hat and jumps for cover.

[Pierre Argh]

Well some time back, I believe, they removed the "Officer and Gentleman" requirement... allegedly replacing it with "Officer OR Gentleman" so, Pontious from that you can draw your own conclusions?

[Pontius Navigator]

Yup, aircrew are gentlemen and would rather be that than the other . . .

[Pierre Argh]

PN... What about female aircrew then?