Best for the job?

[Thomas coupling]

What light (maybe medium) 'twin' is the best all rounder for the job of Police/EMS for the next 10 years and why?

[SASless]

Apache....totes only two people...has all weather day/night capability...can do surviellence and whack jobs as needed. Add an external hook and short haulling of Armed Police onto roof tops becomes a snap.

[catseye]

I suggest you split the question into two as the roles are significantly different. Best for EMS and Best for police should get a better result or at least reduce the extent of compromises.


The Eye

[metric]

I guess this will sound dull, but what possible value can be dervied from such a simple question? I recall my school play-ground where individuals expressed the virtues of what they thought was the best 'what ever'.

The best solution can only be determined if you know what the task requirements are, and if you ask me, and you did'nt, most of the problems associated with helicopter procurement are usually linked to very sketchy requirements tied-in to significant prejudice for a given marque, or type. So I'd be delighted to offer some best-fits if the proposer of the question can spare some time to work out what he/she would want the helicopter to do now, in five and then perhaps in 10 years.

There are other forums where box size/best colour scheme/favourite name are often discussed but why don't we show how profressional we all are by thinking about questions before asking.

[SilsoeSid]

There are other forums where box size/best colour scheme/favourite name are often discussed but why don't we show how profressional we all are by thinking about questions before asking. We could also show how professional we are by spell checking before we post.

I could have overlooked this, but the word 'professional' is at the top of every single page on this site.

SS http://bestsmileys.com/lol/14.gif metric

[Whirlygig]

Metric,

A quiet word if I may ....

I think you'll find Thomas does know the task requirements of both HEMS and police only too well!

It's a perfectly valid question and hopefully will open up some debate and discussion.

Silsoe, you're a bit hard on metric; they were only typos after all and that is something of which are all guilty from time to time?!

Cheers

Whirls

Thomas, just for you.... you'd be disappointed otherwise.... I think they should be pink!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

At what operating altitudes? Over what sort of surface? For routine landing on what terrain?

With how many crew?

Covering what sized area?

With what operating budget?

For day-only ops or H24?

To purchase or rent?

With what political requirements for locally sourced content? ANd how local?

How many refuelling opportunities in the operating area?


I don't know the answer by the way, I'm just illustrating why it's such a complex question.

G

[Letsby Avenue]

ec145 - Plenty of cabin space:D

[TeeS]

Come on TC, you know you only have to look out of the window to answer that one. Even if it is a 'classic'!;)

TeeS

[metric]

Risking a word or two here. The unglamorous subject of helicopter maintenance may be a major issue particularly when considering light and medium helicopters and then helicopters of different vintages.

As an example, the EC135 has shown commendable availability to UK police operators. This availability has been possible to a large extent to the simplification of inspection requirements for what, even now. is a very modern helicopter.

Larger helicopters, derived from more mature designs, may indeed offer significant operational benefits and I would include the EC145 here, but it would be wise to be certain that the maintenance regime is one that will allow operations based on say EC135, to continue without major changes.

The EC145 has to date been deployed largely in groups of 3 plus helicopters where airframe rotation is part of the game.

I am not suggesting at all that the EC145 is not an excellent aircraft which might meet many of the tasks that a UK police force may need now or in the future. I am saying that there are some 'interesting' issues that need to be understood.

Happy flying.

[Thomas coupling]

Thank you Metric for your sympathetic ear. If I didn't know any better I'd say you know more than you let on.
Takes all sorts I suppose and at the end of the day.......you are, after all........an engineer :E

Whirly.....if ever I need a tail gunner, I'll know who to call:ok:

I'll rephrase the question making it even simpler for the engineers to contribute:

Please name ALL the light and medium twins in the world?
Eliminate ALL those that are NOT supported in the UK.
Eliminate ALL those more than 10 years old.

[MightyGem]

Apache....totes only two people
Unfortunately SASless, that is the problem. They will insist that I
take two policemen with me.

[PANews]

TC

This might get complex!

If you go down the road of 'Please name ALL the light and medium twins in the world' that list is not too long.....

We may be able to ignore those .... NOT supported in the UK.

However ... find three or more customers and 'they' will soon find support!

'Eliminate ALL those more than 10 years old.'

That is the ticklish one.... strike the BK117C2 [aka EC145] and the A109 ... But I guess you did not mean that.

Even the 135 and the 900 are on the line..... both are well over 10 now.

So the contenders are I expect the western worlds offerings ... the 109, 135, 145 and 900 plus potentially the 429? The latter being a wholly unknown quantity.

Or did you have others in your frame?

[Spelling checked, not an engineer!]

[metric]

I give up....the arrival of UAVs cannot come to soon!

Regards all!

[What Limits]

Lets move on.

Lets get away from the political limitations of having one word painted on the side.

Lets give better value to the taxpayer.

Lets write POLICE HEMS FIRE RESCUE instead

Lets do winching, fast roping, picking up people, load lifting, bambi buckets, civil contingency.

Lets try doing away with C of G problems

Lets try CAT A OEI at MTOW

Lets move into the 5 tonne class.

Lets try EC155, AB 135 et al.

Lets try taking cover!

[BigMike]

Hard to beat this:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/145.jpg


How much money do you have to spend? Thats the real question...

BM

[PANews]

Hard to beat?

In what way?

Nice colour, nice shape, lots of bits attached.... fast .... cheap to buy [or not!] .... economical to operate ... [or not!] ....

Define the mission THEN choose the donkey. You may need a Bell 210.

The EC145 may look like an EC135 but it is NOT... everything above the ceiling is pure BK... so why did you not buy one last time around?

The same caution may well apply.

[N Arslow]

PANews - do they still fly Robis in the US?

[PANews]

This looks like a 'loaded' question....

nil desperandum....

Yes they still use Robinsons in the US... not so many R22 these day now the R44 is discovered....

But of course you need to look at the 44 with some care .... fly it a couple of years and Frank will snatch it back for 5 months for a rebuild.... Toledo PD just had that .... create a demand for air support and then 'lose' the machine for nearly half a year! They actually do it quicker for the police but it seems an awful long time to lose your machine from the front line.

A certain modern light twin can disappear for 7 weeks on an annual where another might only take 4 days [on a good day] for the same treatment.

Even if you plan it, leasing in for seven weeks costs a great deal more than 4 days..... and a budget is a budget.

All to be considered.

[BigMike]

"In what way?" Well the original question was "best allrounder" for Police/EMS. The 145 has:
Large flat floor and good sized cabin
Good power
Not too big for confined areas
Modern avionics
Clam-shell doors for patient loading
Tail rotor well above gl
Quite fast...and yeah, it does look good!

Down side... costs a LOT!

"why didnt you buy one last time"
Sorry, what did I buy?

[Thomas coupling]

He was targetting me Big Mike.

Beautiful looking machine.....

however,

not particularly impressed with its VTOL performance or payload to be honest, hence the original question.

[Demands change Bryn!]

Money: not an issue for the right machine.

Wish list now down to:

EC145
Bell 429
Agusta 109G

[PANews]

EC145
Bell 429
Agusta 109G

Strange bedfellows TC.... and one with no track record.

I know we are talking lift capability here in lumping them together but they are as different as chalk and cheese despite what the saleman might claim. One has a very large [if a little low] cabin but the others are smaller.... which is required? Large or small?

This then comes back to the outline specification... what do you want it to do?


Yes I was targeting you, because you started the thread, but the question was far wider in application. Lots of people, a generic question but one that each must face.... why did you reject it last time, was it just the money, was the final choice a compromise because the 117 was beyond the funds? Has the mission changed? Is it prettier now? Then back to ... what is the mission?

There is a new Spectre to address. Plans to cut the number of police forces that might see you linking with neighbours to the North, east or South [NOT west!] in the time before you make this decision....

Sorry Big Mike I have not identified you! Another time maybe!

[BigMike]

For those who don't know the specs for the 429:

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a3/Micksphotos/429specs.jpg

[HELOFAN]

I think that is a great looking helicopter!

Maybe look at what is being used around the world.

I think that anything with lots of rockets and a gattling gun would be my choice.

Ads a whole new meaning to ..Stop !! This is the Police !!

I would love to see some gunships done up in a police color scheme.

Its got to give the crims something to think about.

Sorry what was the question again?