D129 & Kamikaze Pilots

[Go Smoke]

*RANT ON*

I was duty instructor at Weston On The Green (D129), Oxford Gliding Club on Sunday.

We had four zone busts that day by GA aircraft.

One or two a day is usual.

The first was a Pitts or Christen Eagle (sorry, not a spotter) heading South to North at approx 1500' QFE. Straight through the centre.

This was as a two seat training glider was commencing a winch launch.

If the Pitts/CE had been 30 seconds later he would have collected 1,500' of multi strand steel cable, a two seat glider and a two ton winch. I'm sure I don't need to elaborate on the possible consequences.

"To the Pitts pilot, if he should happen to read this forum" - we did not manage to get your registration so you can probably breath a big sigh.

The second zone bust was a Jodel. Again heading South to North at about 2,000' QFE.
As he merrily chugged his way over the Northern airfield boundary he would have been oblivious to the nine square parachute canopies blossoming in his wake.
A few seconds later and it wouldn't of only been his day that he ruined but also some other poor unfortunate.

"To the Jodel pilot, if he should happen to read this forum" - I believe the jump aircraft tried to get your registration, not sure if they did or not, but I wouldn't breath too easily for a couple of weeks mate.

I did not see the other two as I was in the air at the time so cannot comment further other than to say:

"You may not value yours or your passengers lives, I may not value your life either but I sure do value mine and the lives of my flying buddies and those under my charge.
I cannot over emphasise how dangerous it is to fly through D129 - please don't.
If you know who you are then maybe you need to have a little sit down in a quiet room and ponder your actions for a moment.
You may then like to have a little chat with your CFI.
Certainly you may like to ground yourself until you've had a little refresher flight with him.
You know it's the responsible thing to do?"

Go Smoke

*RANT OFF*

[turniphead]

Enjoy your rant.

You are most fortunate in being a Civilian Gliding Club operating there. Note 1 on the 1/2 mil makes it clear that it is primarily a mil para drop zone. We all know most mil activity stops on a fri afternoon. Your Oxford club must be the only club to have the full protection of a danger area. You are so lucky. All other Glider sites have no such protection.
Also be reminded that the CAA have taken action in the past against self appointed 'police' pilots for unauthorised formation flying and endangering other aircraft by flying too close in an attempt to obtain registrations. You should know better than go gallivanting around the sky collecting reg letters.

[BEagle]

GoSmoke - Might I suggest that you copy your post to David Cockburn at the CAA? He is always interested in such safety related matters for his flight safety road shows.

tuniphead, D129 is active H24. Whether that's with military parachuting 100% of the time, or military parachuting 20%, gliding 80% doesn't matter. Unless you received DAAIS from Brize Radar stating that it is not active, you must assume that it is.

Illegal formation is indeed very dangerous; however, to get close enough to an infringer to note type of a/c, colour etc may be sufficient if corroborated with the relevant ATC radar tapes to track the offender to point of arrival. The CAA's enforcement branch take a very dim view of Danger Area infringements.

[Go Smoke]

We all know most mil activity stops on a fri afternoon.
Oh well, that's alright then. Getting killed by a negligent pilot is ok on a weekend but a problem on weekdays.

Sheesh, "we all know most mil activity stops on a fri afternoon"

There is dropping at Weston 7 days a week at all hours.

Mil drops aren't just kicking squaddies out the side of a herc (and yes, they do do it on a weekend).
You also get special forces at all hours on any day of the week.
You also have the sport parachute association who drop at any time during daylight hours on any day of the week.

I'd say you're making deadly assumtions turniphead (did you give yourself that name?)- I figure you're only a temporary citizen with a nice healthy attitude like that - problem is who you take with you. Sincerely hope it's not me.

Also be reminded that the CAA have taken action in the past against self appointed 'police' pilots for unauthorised formation flying and endangering other aircraft by flying too close in an attempt to obtain registrations.
Thankfully our flying discipline seems to be more intact than others. The above is why we carry high powered binoculars rather than try and 'chase' aircraft.
This is also what the parachutists do.

Any more sweeping assumptions to make?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'll make a sweeping assumption if I may.

If a DA is published as H24, we should all assume that it is, errrr 24hrs/365days and not presume otherwise unless specifically told it's inactive by somebody in a position to know.

G

[Man-on-the-fence]

Go Smoke

Got any times for the infringements?

[Go Smoke]

Oh, its ok I just found a couple of turniphead quotes from other threads.
navigating can't be all that difficult. Are we allowed GPS?
and
??? 'MOR' what's that?
It all makes much more sense now.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Jeepers you went through the trouble of searching those out?

I would have thought the name was a pretty good giveaway!

:} :} :}

[turniphead]

Sweeping assumptions department..

"I believe the jump aircraft tried to get your registration, not sure if they did or not, but I wouldn't breath too easily for a couple of weeks mate."


"The above is why we carry high powered binoculars rather than try and 'chase' aircraft."

How about some consistency then 'mate'.

I did'nt and dont go or advocate going into an active danger Area.
I simply remind you how much more fortunate you are than other gliding clubs who do not have the protection of 24 hour danger zone around them.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I'm not sure why you are ranting at poor old turniphead like this. I think you have gone over the edge somewhat here and an apology is probably in order.

There are lots of stupid people in aircraft, many of whom wouldn't know where to find a NOTAM or know the difference between a danger area or a restricted zone.

Do you NOTAM when you are going to be active? Have you been to see all the local airfields and clubs to bang home the point that the airfield maybe active all the time? This can work wonders, how about organising a fly-in so that people can realise where you are and learn about some of the problems they can cause.
A far better method than just 'shopping' one person to the CAA.

For god's sake don't start getting into formating on or chasing 'intruders' as I have heard some other airfields have done in the past. Just as utterly idiotic as someone flying over head a glider site that is actively winch launching.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Weston on the Green is permanently active, so no NOTAM required.

Winch gliding sites are marked on the CAA maps and I think it that the same people that don't take that as a message to avoid those spots will be the same that, as you say, can not find a NOTAM.

I am baffled to read that anyone has chased an 'intruder' to get a registration. I agree with you that this is as unclever as the alleged 'offence'

[Go Smoke]

Ok, I'll try again.

We carry high powered hand held binos at the launch point to try and ident zone busters. The parachutists have a huge pair of tripos mounted thingummyjigs which are incerdibly powerful for just the same reason.

I don't re-call saying that we chased or formated on any infringing aircraft - however I can see how you might jump to that assumption.
the jump aircraft was in the descent when the second guy passed underneath him and there was a request to spot his reg if possible. no chasing or formating.
Just highlighting another danger of busting the zone there - the jump aircraft in descent/circuit.

I simply remind you how much more fortunate you are than other gliding clubs who do not have the protection of 24 hour danger zone around them.
Why?? what possible relevance does this have to the topic??

Keep digging that hole 'mate'

say again s l o w l y
I'm lost for words at your post............................

As far as I can make out you seem to be calling turnip head a stupid person in an aircraft who wouldn't know where to find a NOTAM or know the difference between a danger area or restricted zone.
I'm probably wrong but that's what it seems like you're saying.

If you've got a half million to hand, grab it and have a look at D129.
Do you think it needs to be NOTAM'ed or, should it be picked up when you draw you route line right through the middle of it?

[Say again s l o w l y]

A NOTAM may not be required, but if this is a regular problem, then maybe NOTAM'ing could be a sensible precaution.

I've heard a couple of tales of a/c being chased to get reg no's. None recent, but having seen the reaction of some people to zone infringements, it doesn't surprise me one bit.

[Go Smoke]

Ok, so it seems we're all batting from the same wicket when talking about chasing or formating on zone busters - perhaps we can let that one go now.

Maybe proper route planning could avoid this problem.
I would propose that if someone can't be arsed to draw a line on a map then they're even less likely to bother to find out about NOTAM's.
but having seen the reaction of some people to zone infringements, it doesn't surprise me one bit.
When was the last time you had the living crap scared out of you by some wally with his head down following a line on his GPS.
It's not a storm in a tea cup, it's DEADLY serious.
If you are ever passing by then please, please feel free to drop in to WOG, have a cup of tea and watch the operation for half an hour.
I'm sure you will pale at the thought of ever flying through the zone.
Then imagine seeing your friend, partner, son or daughter flying up the wire in a glider as somebody trundles through the overhead oblivious to their position and the potential for disaster.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Having been to WOTG, I agree 100% about it not being a very good place to go blundering through. In fact at the moment we have one of your islanders sitting the main hangar at Cumbernauld, so Weston is not exactly unknown in these parts.

I live in a permanent state of fear caused by students and PPL's trying to kill me! It's usually far worse than just following a line aswell!

Go smoke, I'm not having a go at turniphead one little bit, it is your attitude towards him (if he is a he) that I find offensive.

Normally you'll find that the Binos that parachutists use are not there for spotting zone infringements, but for looking at the parachutists as they are on their way down. A slightly different reason you may find.

My point to you at WOTG is that even though you would have to be pretty daft to go blundering through, what are YOU doing to try and minimise the problem? It's all very well coming on to PPRUNE and whinging about how stupid people can be. But why not be proactive and go out and try and cut down the problems you are experiencing. You may well be doing this already and I'd be surprised if it hadn't been done at some point. Maybe a new push is required?

I can't quite understand why you would be lost at my post. It is fairly self-explanitory. Maybe a course in map reading (or post reading) would be sensible?

[dublinpilot]

Go Smoke,

I understand where you are coming from on this, however I would agree that you are being a little too hard on turniphead even if he did set himself up for it.

Perhaps there is a little more to this though than just your side of the story. I find it hard to believe that someone would just go straight through a danger area, intentionally, without getting the required info. I also find it difficult to believe that people actually use the goto function on their gps without checking where it is taking them. Maybe I'm naive, but I do find it difficult to believe.

So that leaves us with two possibilities.

1) The pilot thought they were somewhere other than where they actually were, or

2) The pilot believed that they had done all that was necessary.

If 1) is correct, then this is a navigation issue, rather than a planning or inconsiderate issue.

So how might a pilot believe that they had done all that was necessary?

Well, I'm unfamiliar with D129, I don't have a chart to hand, and I don't know what the entry for D129 in the AIP is. So this is just pure speculation.

But I take it, your gliding site is not the reason for the danger area? This is purely a guess, based on the fact that Danger area status isn't given to any other glider sites that I know of. So presumably it's due to some other reason. Someone mentioned a military base/airfield.

Now we should not forget that a danger area is just that. Dangerous. It's not restricted nor is it prohibited. A pilot is perfectly entitled to fly through it, but obviously should have obtained the the information on any activity taking place in the danger area before entering it.

It may be possible that the pilot called up the appropriate service (someone mentioned Brize Norton) and was told that the dangerous activity was not taking place at that time; perhaps told that the military base was closed. If that was the case, I would say the pilot was perfectly entitled to fly through the danger area.

Then the question arises about the pilot flying through a glider site. This is completely separate to flying through a danger area. I understand from previous posts that the glider site is marked on the VFR chart. Is there a frequency published on the chart for the glider site? If not, perhaps it would be a good idea to suggest to the CAA that one be included. If there is none, does your club mention to the authority charged with giving info on D129, that the site is in use that day, or that a parachute drop is about to take place? If not, and perhaps you do, but if not, it would seem like a good idea.

I don't mean to criticise you. That is not my intention. I'm just saying that, on the assumption that D129 is not there to protect your site, and that you're not the nominated frequency to call up for info on D129, it's a little hard to know what precautions the pilot took before going through D129. To assume it gives you protection is a big assumption.

The issue of flying through a glider site is a separate issue.

dp

[Whirlygig]

Dublinpilot has made some good points there.

If four aircraft infringed your zone when the norm is one or two, wouldn't that make you think that maybe some duff information was given out?

We know that there are some idjits out there and we all have a responsibility to keep an eye for them (just as the idjits have a responsibility to stop being idjits) but most pilots are conscientious and therefore I might start to think that there could be another issue.

Cheers

Whirls

PS - any of you Weston glider guys flying over Newbury Show on Saturday? Just wondering as I was there watching the Silver Wings parachute display team!

[Man-on-the-fence]

Ill ask again.

Any idea what time the infringements occurred?

[Go Smoke]

Sorry, had to actually do some work for once!

Dublinpilot, you are correct - still in rant mode I'm afraid.

turniphead - apologies for any offence caused and for being a little punchy.

D129 is marked as 24H - it genuinely is a 24/7 hazard.

The area is a military drop zone.

Three different types of drop occur there:

sport parachuting - static and accelerated freefall. This occurs during daylight hours seven days a week.

Standard Mil drops - squaddies being kicked out of a Herc. This occurs anytime night or day seven days a week.

Special forces Mil drops - HALO etc occuring anytime day or night, seven days a week.


Sure it's not illegal to fly through D129 but neither is sticking your fingers in a three phase socket!

I do believe somebody was prosecuted for infringing the area a few years ago - I seem to remember a £4,000 fine but not sure what other penalties were applied. I'll try and find out.

We can surmise a great deal about what might or might not have been happening in the cockpit but, will never know DP
It may be possible that the pilot called up the appropriate service (someone mentioned Brize Norton) and was told that the dangerous activity was not taking place at that time; perhaps told that the military base was closed. If that was the case, I would say the pilot was perfectly entitled to fly through the danger area.
I understand where you are coming from on this, however bear in mind it is marked as a 24 hour hazard.

I don't mean to criticise you. That is not my intention. I'm just saying that, on the assumption that D129 is not there to protect your site, and that you're not the nominated frequency to call up for info on D129, it's a little hard to know what precautions the pilot took before going through D129. To assume it gives you protection is a big assumption.
I make no assumption that D129 is there to protect the gliding operation.
This is not just about the gliders it's about the parachutists too.

Difficult as it may be to believe, it happens too frequently to be pure accident.

This is not a beef with power pilots - I fly them as well.
We also, occasionally, get gliders busting the zone too.
It is a beef with airmanship and I was a little shocked too see how close we were to having a nasty accident last w/e.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Whirls,

Not sure what duff info could have been given out.

Wasn\'t me near Newbury on Saturday. I had the NOTAM info.
Turned Basingstoke as 1st TP but tracked back up the western edge of Reading.
Got my trace to prove it! :ok:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Man-on-the-fence,

Not sure what you want the info for - not looking for a witch hunt just hoping that whoever busted D129 might read this and have a little think about it.

pm me if you still feel you want more info.

[Whirlygig]

Go SMoke,

All I was getting at was, as Dublinpilot also suggested, that the pilots concerned may have been told that Weston/D129 was not active.

It's just that with four aircraft flying over, maybe consider something else (I don't know what to suggest) unforeseen could have been a factor as to me it seems too many to be a coincidence.

Cheers

Whirls

[Man-on-the-fence]

Only trying to help.

[dublinpilot]

I've had a chance now to look at the 500k chart, and the AIP.

The AIP entry says:
Activity: Parachute Dropping (Air Force Dept).

No mention of gliders or civilian parachute dropping.

On the chart the restricted area forms an nice concentric circle inside the restricted area, and is referenced to note 1. It's not hidden under anything, and is quite easy to see.

Note one says "Weston on the green is extensively used for military parachute training. [....]". Again no mention of any civilian activity.

I'm assuming the parachute drop you referenced to in your original post were civilian, not military. If it was military this post makes no sense!

So is the following possible?

Pilot: G-xx [....] intending to pass through D129, request Danger Area Activity Information.
Brize Norton ATC: G-xx R129 is active 24/7, however there is currently no military activity.
Pilot: Understand no military activity. Thank you for your help.

It would be very easy for someone looking at the chart, and having had that conversation with ATC to believe that nothing was taking place within the Danger Area.

It's clearly not correct to assume that, but it's very easy to see how it would happen. The pilot needs to make the connection that the D129 entry in the AIP, and note one on the chart, only mentions military parachuting, and nothing about civilian activity and nothing about gilders. Otherwise it would be very easy to assume "no military activity" included the gliding site.

Do you notify your gilding activities, to Brize Norton so they can let people requesting DA activity info know that the gilding site is active? Do you let them know before you do a parachute drop?

If not, then I would suggest that that would be a very helpful place to start.

I would also suggest that asking to CAA to amend the wording on note 1 on the chart to indicate that civilian activity also takes place even when military is not.

Again no criticism is intended in this post. I just hope to show you how it is possible for these things to happen. I have to say, that there but for the grace of God go I. If I contacted Brize Norton and had the above conversation with them, I could see how I would make the same mistake. Clearly it would be my fault, but none the less, a very very easy mistake to make.

If you are having 1 or 2 incidents a day, then surely it suggests that there is something more wrong than people not looking at the chart?

Anyway, I hope you find my suggestions useful.

dp

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I understand where you are coming from on this, however bear in mind it is marked as a 24 hour hazard.But, if it's an H24 danger area with a DAAIS and you call the DAAIS and they tell you it's inactive then for the purposes of your flight the danger area no longer exists and there's no earthly reason not to fly straight through the middle of it. That is precisely what the DAAIS is there for.

As others have pointed out, flying straight through the middle of a gliding site marked on the map is pretty daft, but that's not related to any "infringement" of the danger area.

Is there, I wonder, any mileage in getting the DAAIS to say to punters "the danger area is inactive, but that only means there's no military parachuting going on just right now, you are aware that there's a gliding site in the same place aren't you"?

[High Wing Drifter]

Just out of interest, has anybody here used a DACS?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Pilot: G-xx [....] intending to pass through D129, request Danger Area Activity Information.
Brize Norton ATC: G-xx R129 is active 24/7, however there is currently no military activity.
Pilot: Understand no military activity. Thank you for your help.

I would be very surprised if any ATC unit providing DAAIS used such ambiguous phraseology.

For an H24 Danger Area there will be a formal agreement as to how the DAAIS unit is advised about the status of the Danger Area. This will also provide authorisation for the DAAIS unit to advise when there is no activity and so allow pilots to transit the airspace.

The type of phraseology used will be along the lines of 'Danger Area 129 is not active' although some military units also like to use the term 'Danger Area 129 is cold'. In either case, it only signifies that the notified Danger Area activity is not taking place, it makes no statement about any other aerial activity which might be found in the confines of the airspace.

[Flyin'Dutch']

WOTG is clearly marked on the chart and very easy to distinguish from the air.

The notion that those who go through it somehow make a conscious decision about the risks/activity gives too much credit to what happens in reality. IMHO it is just ignorance in action.

It is marked as H24 and that is what it means.

Only a fool would fly through it.

In the same vein as that only fools fly over winch sites below 2000odd feet.

[Rallye Driver]

That corner of Oxfordshire is a potentially scary piece of airspace. Not only have you got gliders and para dropping at Weston but intense gliding activity at Bicester as well.

I remember coming back once from Gloucester with a friend of mine. We wanted to have a look at Upper Heyford. Being aware of the danger area and also of Bicester, we kept as close to the edge of the Weston zone as we could to give Bicester a wide berth and were at 3500 feet. Despite two of us keeping a sharp lookout we were suddenly surrounded by about ten gliders above, below and to the sides.

Not somewhere I'm going to return to in a hurry, especially on a nice clear day!

Weston is clearly marked as a gliding site on the chart, and is very likely to be operational in that role at weekends. There's no excuse really.

RD

[dublinpilot]

In either case, it only signifies that the notified Danger Area activity is not taking place, it makes no statement about any other aerial activity which might be found in the confines of the airspace.

That is my point. If you ask for a DAAIS and are told the dangerous activity isn't taking place, then it's a relative easy assumption that nothing is happening there.

For those that have a chart but aren't familiar with this area, have a look at it. See if your first reaction, (without reading the AIP or note 1) would be that the danger area is to protect the gilding & parachute drop site. Then imagine you are told that the Danger Area is Cold/inactive or whatever phraseology was used. How would you feel about crossing it then?

In my opinion, having seen it on the chart, but never been in the area before, it's crying out for someone to make that mistake. If Go Smoke is having an average or 2 aircraft fly though a day, then it would tend to suggest that this is a mistake that is regularly being made.

I suspect that this more to do with the problem, than lost or dangerous pilots.

Go-smoke, out of curiosity are the busts as common, when military activity is taking place??

dp

[Go Smoke]

There is pretty much always parachute dropping at Weston.

The sport parachute club is actually military as well.

As far as I am aware, Brize never direct anybody through the zone.

As far as the gliding operation goes - we activate with the Brize controllers at the start of each flying day.

The one or two infringement tend to be on the weekends when aviation activity is busier.

At the end of the day it's a very clearly marked danger zone active 24/7 and unless you're lost (and obviously situationally unaware) it's plain daft to fly through it.

I find it very difficult to believe that Brize Norton would clear anybody to fly through the zone knowing that there is a Dornier kicking out great tranches of free fall parachutists. A helicopter also dropping jumpers and winch launching to 2,000' with gliders local soaring.

[Nimbus265]

Go Smoke,

I have some sympathy with you as I being an instructor at another gliding club that operates from within a Danger Area. Despite there being a DAAIS to support the area (and repeating tape annoncements when the DAAIS service is closed) and the area being notified as 24h in the AIP, we often get infrigments into the immediate circuit area, and our site lies significantly inside the Danger Area border.


The AIP states quite clearly that only the most likely dangers to be encountered are notified, (not all of them) and the DAAIS service provider may not be fully aware of the other activities.

The AIP also states that :

The purpose of the DAAIS is to enable pilots to obtain, via a Nominated Service Unit (NSU), an airborne update of the
activity status of a participating Danger Area whose position is relevant to the flight of the aircraft. Such an update will assist pilots in deciding whether it would be prudent, on flight safety grounds, to penetrate the area. It is strongly emphasized that information obtained from an NSU is only pertinent to the ACTIVITY STATUS of a Danger Area and is not a clearance to cross that Danger Area, whether or not it is active.

What I find difficlut to understand is that you either bust a Danger Area deliberately, and in which case you make a concious judgment to fly through this as part of you flight planning, or you bust it by making a mistake in navigation or through poor planing:

I can't conceive of too many occasions when I would make a concious decision to fly though a danger area without first establishing the level of danger present, and that would involve everything from establishing the By-Laws for the Danger Area, contacting the DAAIS or DACS, contacting the primary user of the Danger area etc... etc... etc..

I can't see too many people going through this hassel to try to ascertain the exact nature of the danger for a notified 24H, when it would be soo much easier to fly around it (Especially somewhere like D129)

Any 24H notified area, by definition is a danger 24/7- so why the NEED to fly though it?

This leaves me with the conclusion that these infringements occur as a result of either poor planning, or poor navigation, and the blame for this must lie firmly with the pilot.

[turniphead]

Now that the rant has died down we are seeing a little common sense prevail.

1. It is agreed that D129 is H24 and we all understand that that means keep out H24
2.By what law/regulation/common practice or code of conduct is oxford gliding club allowed to operate in D129.
Go Smoke would not get his toys out of boxes and set up a nice Sunday Gliding session knowing full well he was about to be in a mock battle zone.
3.Do the military (and Go Smoke has elaborated in some detail the type and extent of mil.activities) ring him up and ask him to put away his gliders as a herc with 80 paras on board will thunder through in 5 mins time...or 5 hours time or...not today chaps so carry on gliding.
4. Go Smoke surely does not carry out normal glider operations of launches and circuits and recoveries in a the middle of a 'hot' zone.

So what please is the communication channel that permits him to operate in this luxurious environment where he can look for overflying (and I don't mean only through the winch zone) up to FL85 (London TMA above that)any aircraft and report him for D129 infringement.

If he can operate a glider club without fear of military activity why can't we have equal access to this airspace on those occassions

[Nimbus265]

Err... because he can??????

He probably has an airfield license from the CAA, the same as the one my club has, which tells him he can!

He probably has close liasion with the military traffic through radio/ telephone or personal contact... they may operate a joint control...who knows?

It doesn't 'just happen'.... unlike Danger Area infringements!

Fly around D129... you know it makes sense!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Presumably if D129 wasn't there, an active glider launch site would be shown on the chart and/or NOTAMed and we'd still all be doing our best to avoid it. It would appear to me that they leave D129 H24 simply to avoid issuing any extra paperwork - technically incorrect, but it works so why not?

G

[MichaelJP59]

This is a related question, Rallye Driver wrote:

Despite two of us keeping a sharp lookout we were suddenly surrounded by about ten gliders above, below and to the sides.

This sort of configuration is something that most power pilots would avoid - are gliders much more manoeuverable than powered aeroplanes, and is the visibility much better?

Or is it just that the "gaggle" of gliders are all used to flying with each other so are comfortable with that level of proximity?

[Nimbus265]

That’s an interesting question, JP59

The average roll rate for a 15m glider is about 4-4.5 seconds from 45 degrees left to 45 degrees right at about 50kts.

The average thermalling speed is about 50kts, and most competent glider pilots thermal with somewhere between 30 and 45 degrees angle of bank.

As regards to manoeuvrability and proximity in thermals, gliders established in a thermal will generally all be ascending in the same parcel of rising air, and therefore vertical separation would remain reasonably constant assuming that they are all climbing at the same rate and same efficiency. In practice there are slight variations and some pilots can climb faster than others while maintaining horizontal separation.

Horizontal separation is slightly different and requires an understanding of the convergace/divergace speeds and what to do if one or the other speeds up or slows down.

An overarching principle of constant lookout, situational awareness and airmanship ensures safe flying in a thermal, and gliders are sufficiently agile/ manoeuvrable at these speeds to ensure separation is relatively easily maintained.

There are well defined principles for joining, flying in and leaving a thermal to ensure that everybody can (in most cases) anticipate another gliders actions.

What really screws this up, if somebody, be it a glider or powered aircraft, does not adhere to these principles.

It takes significant concentration to fly in a tightly formed gaggle, especially in a competition where there could be upwards of 30 gliders in the same thermal. The levels of concentration tend to be focused on maintaining safe levels of separation... perhaps in this situation there is less focus on the PA-28 cruising in towards the gaggle at 90kts from the southeast!! :eek:

Does this help?

[MichaelJP59]

Does this help?

Thanks, anything that helps non-glider pilots like me understand the performance envelope and likely flight patterns is certainly useful.

[yakker]

Whenever I have been speaking to Brize, and they think you are routing anywhere near WOTG, they make sure you are aware of Weston, and expect you to tell them you are routing clear of the zone. So in my experience Brize are acutely aware of the problem at Weston, and make sure you also know, but of course you need to be speaking to Brize in the first place.

I went to an evening session at Sibson, and aircraft bumbling through the drop zone is not uncommon. Some guilty parties have been tracked, and when spoken to, were totally unaware of the zone bust.

The video they have of a Chipmunk flying through, and the parachutist with a helmet camera filming how close he was to a collision is frightening.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Given the slow advance of the Flexible Use of Airspace concept in Europe, whereby Danger Areas are being curtailed to only being active when they are actually hosting 'dangerous' activities, it might come to pass that D129 H24 status is removed in time. This will of course involve the Danger Area authority having to do some donkey work and issue NOTAMs, but it works for 99% of the other Danger Areas in the country, some of which arguably see a lot more actual dangerous activity.

If that did happen then I think it would be kind of hard to justify the area being notified as active purely because civil gliding and/or parachuting is taking place when the rest of the country has no such protection.

Regardless of the Danger Area activity however, airmanship dictates you should give notified gliding and paradrop sites a wide berth :ok: so there should always be a common sense balance applied between the needs of all airspace users and the availability of unrestricted airspace.

[Go Smoke]

1. It is agreed that D129 is H24 and we all understand that that means keep out H24
2.By what law/regulation/common practice or code of conduct is oxford gliding club allowed to operate in D129.
Go Smoke would not get his toys out of boxes and set up a nice Sunday Gliding session knowing full well he was about to be in a mock battle zone.
3.Do the military (and Go Smoke has elaborated in some detail the type and extent of mil.activities) ring him up and ask him to put away his gliders as a herc with 80 paras on board will thunder through in 5 mins time...or 5 hours time or...not today chaps so carry on gliding.
4. Go Smoke surely does not carry out normal glider operations of launches and circuits and recoveries in a the middle of a 'hot' zone.

When we are operating so are the RAFSPA (RAF Sport Parachuting Association)
We operate together on the airfield. We have a very clear and pre arranged set up for each and every day with very clearly defined areas apportioned to each activity with buffer zones.
We are in constant radio contact with the jump aircraft and the DZ controller. We do not launch when they are 2 mins to live drop, in free fall or under canopy.
Assuming none of the above are happening we call for launch and assuming a 'clear launch' is given then we do so.

If the Squaddies or Special Forces wish to drop then we all have to pack up whilst they do so.

There is no down time or quiet period - the jump aircraft are up and down all day like the proverbial women of the nights draws.
If they're not actually dropping then we will be launching.
If neither RAFSPA or us are operating it's because they are mil dropping.

We speak to the jump aircraft, brize zone, DZ controller. If they are mil dropping they inform us and we all vacate the field whilst they do so. Any and all of the above hapens SEVEN DAYS A WEEK 24 HOURS A DAY.

p.s. They are not toys - please acept my offer to come gliding with us sometime (you maybe pleasantly suprised)
pm me if you wish to do this.

So what please is the communication channel that permits him to operate in this luxurious environment where he can look for overflying (and I don't mean only through the winch zone) up to FL85 (London TMA above that)any aircraft and report him for D129 infringement.

We don't operate in a luxurious environment - it is a very hazardous place to be for anybody and, believe me, it restricts our activities severly on many occasions.
You try being stuck on the floor as hour after hour of military meat bombing goes on and the sky is looking like a 750k day. Almost physically painful!
Please bear in mind that on any day that is soarable most gliders will be taking off and then flying cross country so will be away from the airfield for anything other than take off and landing.
The training fleet stay local - usual circuits,landings, take offs.

If he can operate a glider club without fear of military activity why can't we have equal access to this airspace on those occassions
Like I said above, when we are operating so are RAFSPA.

Come and visit, it will help you understand the operation.

[dublinpilot]

We speak to the jump aircraft, brize zone, DZ controller.

Go smoke,

That answers a great deal of what I was interested in. If Brize is aware that you are gliding on that particular day, and I called them up for a DAAIS, and they told me that no military activity was taking place, but failed to mention your gilding (that had been notified to them), I'd be rather put out. They would be technically correct, but it would be rather poor form on their behalf.

I still think that asking the CAA to amend the wording on note one on the 500k chart so that is indicated that gilding/parachuting took place even when the "Danger Activity" was not taking place, would be helpful to your cause.

dp

[Miserlou]

I have operated the jump aircraft at Weston and was most impressed by the operation on all sides, gliders, RAFSPA, military and the brize controllers. And what a model this could be if the military opened all of their playgrounds at the weekends.
It is to be remembered that this is RAF Weston on the Green!

So if some lazy, negligent, stupid, ignorant (tick as applicable) pilot wants to go trolleying through the Danger Area, then be prepared to lose the airspace.

It is nothing but poor airmanship to be busting through an area like Weston.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

So if some lazy, negligent, stupid, ignorant (tick as applicable) pilot wants to go trolleying through the Danger Area Sorry, but this is bollocks. There's nothing lazy or ignorant about looking up the danger area in the AIP, finding out that it has a DAAIS, calling up the DAAIS, being told that the DA in inactive, then flying through it. That is perfectly normal practice and is what the DAAIS is there for.

There might, as several people have suggested, be something ignorant about failing to realise that the co-located danger area and gliding site have nothing to do with each other, so that an inactive danger area does not necessarily actually imply an inactive gliding site.

But that's different. If there were no co-located gliding site to cause confusion it would be perfectly in order to fly right through the middle of the danger area after being told by the correct authority that it was inactive.

[Send Clowns]

Gertrude

I cannot see any ATSU telling you you were allowed through Weston without reminding you that it is a damned stupid thing to do at below 2,500 ft aal, as there might be civilian gliding. My housemate is a former gliding instructor, from a certain school near a popular GA airport. They had a lot of problems of idiots blundering over their launching area, legally but with no regard at all for good airmanship!

Go Smoke

Yeahyeahyeahyeahyeahyeahyeahyeah! would love to go gliding!

[Miserlou]

Please Gertrude,

!. Lazy. Pilot couldn't be bothered to allow a safe margin around the area or couldn't be bothered to check route.

2. Negligent. Didn't notice the symbols on the chart or spot the gliders on the field. (And it's not a little, hard to find place but a big three runway triangle.)

3. Stupid. Knew it was there and busted straight through anyway.

4. Ignorant. Didn't know it was there for whatever reason. Or didn't know of the intensity of the various activities.

You will find that any excuse you can come up with will fit into one of those categories.

The correct authority would never not advise a transitting pilot of the intense activity. Not knowing (ignorance) that there are several activities in progress does not stop you looking out the window. The field does make a good waypoint but having found it and seeing there are gliders unpacked, it would be a good idea to avoid overflying it. That's just daft.

Let's face it, Weston is not the biggest danger area in the world and isn't difficult to avoid.

The work invovled in finding out whether it is active or not is much greater than that of just not flying through it.

[dublinpilot]

Miserlou,

Go Smoke told us that there are an average of 2 aircraft a day that fly through this danger area.

Now we can either accept that this will continue for ever and ever, because pilots will always be lazy, ignorant, stupid and negligent and people involved at WOG can come on here and have their rant and feel better, or alternatively they can try to understand why it is happening and do something to reduce the chances of it happening again.

Some of us have attempted to give reasons for why it might happen. Should you choose to ignore that, you can continue with your own rant, but WOG will continue to have it's 2 aircraft a day fly though.

Not much achieved there then.:sad:

It would be so much better if something could be learnt from this instead.

dp

[GroundBound]

Dublin

So nice to see a well reasoned and politley explained argument.

:ok: :ok:

GB

[Miserlou]

There seems to be plenty of ifs and buts from people who obviously don't know Weston and Brize. On the other hand, the people who DO have experience of the area are being ignored or put down.

It would seem that laziness, negligence, stupidity or ignorance are acceptable traits in a pilot; I disagree.

AOPA, mentioned in last month's Pilot magazine, appear also to be of the same mind in respect of airspace infringements (a similar case to this debate).
Airmanship Neglected.

GoSmoke's rant is perfectly valid because people appear not to be aware of what is happening outside of the aircraft. As I said Weston is not a hard to find place.

DP, Gertruse, Groundbound,
If you can come up with something constructive, please do so; I haven't seen anything thus far. Please don't accept poor airmanship as an acceptable excuse.

[dublinpilot]

Miserlou wrote:
DP, Gertruse, Groundbound,
If you can come up with something constructive, please do so; I haven't seen anything thus far. Please don't accept poor airmanship as an acceptable excuse.

Dublinpilot previously wrote:
I still think that asking the CAA to amend the wording on note one on the 500k chart so that is indicated that gilding/parachuting took place even when the "Danger Activity" was not taking place, would be helpful to your cause.

[Go Smoke]

I have to agree with Miserlou on this.
It's about decent airmanship at the end of the day.
Sure, we all make mistakes - usually we realise them and learn from them - however, I'm not at all sure that the pilots in question probably even realised their potentially fatal error.

Now we can either accept that this will continue for ever and ever, because pilots will always be lazy, ignorant, stupid and negligent and people involved at WOG can come on here and have their rant and feel better, or alternatively they can try to understand why it is happening and do something to reduce the chances of it happening again.

The gist of a lot of the comments seems to be along the lines of "So what are you going to do about it then Go Smoke"

Well, I'm not all together sure that I should be personally doing anything about it - though it's always good to be proactive.

One aspect that people don't seem to like is the reporting of infringing aircrafts registration numbers.
Why?
If the pilot has, for whatever reason, navigated his aircraft into a dangerous situation, jeopardising his and others lives, then surely it can only help if he is informed of such and has a chance to perhaps realise his mistake and to learn from it.

Now, I could potentially visit/contact every flying club in the country and talk about D129, but I have a life, family, job and flying to get on with.
All the information that a safe and responsible pilot needs to recognise, understand and avoid D129 is contained on his aeronautical chart.
Surely this is enough?

Local clubs all pretty much seem to be aware of D129 and the dangers it poses so I'm not sure a local crusade will do much.

Whichever way I look at this it just comes back to a basic issue of good airmanship.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Keeping your brain active should stop people from flying into places they shouldn't be, but if this is a significant problem, then the sensible thing would be to find the root cause of why it is happening and then address this. Not to just whinge about how crap everyone else is. I think Dublinpilot has made some very valid points.

You mention you have a life so can't be bothered to do anything about it since you have better things to do. So if someone blunders into a stick or launching glider, you'll have done everything possible will you? How much effort does it take to start a dialogue with the CAA or send a letter to ALL clubs. Maybe Brize could track every infraction and then a 'chat' could take place with the offending muppet. The key is to find out who's doing it and why it's happening, when you've done that and people continue to be idiots, then you can whinge to your hearts content.

If the info contained on the chart was enough, then you wouldn't have this problem would you?

There is nothing wrong with getting reg. no's (if done safely from a distance) and maybe reporting them, but remember without corroberating evidence there is little the CAA can do. I for one would feel very uncomfortable about prosecutions going ahead on the say so of one person. It certainly wouldn't stand up in a court of law.

[Miserlou]

DP,
That suggestion IS relevant but only as far as Weston is concerned and only on paper. The explanation I received for this is that where a gliding site or para centre may or may not be operating, they may still be overflown with varying degrees of risk. The operations at Weston are such that the risk is higher and therefore the danger area has been established to further discourage intrusion. To be made aware of the type of traffic one is likely to encounter is the only relevant reason for the other (lesser) symbols to be displayed. Not having the chart at hand I cannot be sure but, if memory serves, I believe there is a parachute symbol just to the east of the area, misplaced to allow for written information. Awaiting correction or confirmation of that.

Though my comments are of a more general nature, I find it difficult to believe that any pilot who has gone to the trouble of trying to ascertain whether there are actually any military ops in progress, wouldn't also talk to Brize Norton and be advised of the other activity.

That said, it is still the responsibility of the pilot to avoid things which aren't, or aren't properly, marked on a chart. There is such general disregard for other gliding and para sites around the country that I am firmly of the opinion, as AOPA says,"...pilots have missed out on the basics of good airmanship...".

Getting a registration is a good start to getting at the offenders. Whilst a single witness will not stand in the courts, it should provoke a letter which may just be the wake-up call which said offender needs. At least one can make contact informally.

[Go Smoke]

Keeping your brain active should stop people from flying into places they shouldn't be, but if this is a significant problem, then the sensible thing would be to find the root cause of why it is happening and then address this. Not to just whinge about how crap everyone else is. I think Dublinpilot has made some very valid points.
Erm.......you seem to be speaking in a very emotive fashion.
Firstly, I'm not whinging. Secondly, I'm not saying how crap everyone else is.
You mention you have a life so can't be bothered to do anything about it since you have better things to do. So if someone blunders into a stick or launching glider, you'll have done everything possible will you? How much effort does it take to start a dialogue with the CAA or send a letter to ALL clubs.
So, by default, if a negligent, stupid, lazy or indifferent pilot blunders into the zone and causes an accident then that would be my fault?
Maybe Brize could track every infraction and then a 'chat' could take place with the offending muppet. The key is to find out who's doing it and why it's happening, when you've done that and people continue to be idiots, then you can whinge to your hearts content.
See point one above, I'm not whinging.
I am pointing out what I consider to be a handful of pilots who seem to be displaying a jaw droppingly cavalier attitude towards D129.
If the info contained on the chart was enough, then you wouldn't have this problem would you?
Wouldn't we?
The information displayed on the chart all seems fairly unambiguous to me.
I would proffer an alternative view. With some pilots perhaps over relying on a gps system there may be an increased danger of complacency towards the fundamentals of map reading and as a consequence an increased risk of infringements.
There is nothing wrong with getting reg. no's (if done safely from a distance) and maybe reporting them, but remember without corroberating evidence there is little the CAA can do.
Thank you - it seems this is no longer considered beyond the pale.
I for one would feel very uncomfortable about prosecutions going ahead on the say so of one person. It certainly wouldn't stand up in a court of law.
It's very unlikely that a prosecution would go ahead if it wouldn't stand up in a court of law. Therefore, if a prosecution were to go ahead, this would assume sufficient information would it not?

[Say again s l o w l y]

It wouldn't be one persons fault, but as we all know, accidents rarely have a single cause. Rather they are a combination of factors.

In the case of Weston, if I had heard that someone had flown through the middle of a glider launch and had walloped into someone else, then I would be thinking "what an idiot, putting themselves and others at danger." BUT if I later heard that this was a problem that had been happening on a regular basis, but this was the first accident that had happened, then it would seem sensible to start questioning other factors ontop of the stupidity of one individual.

As someone far smarter than I said once "safety is no accident" and we ALL have a responsibility to try and minimise any potential problems.

So in a way, if an accident does occur because of an issue you've highlighted, but done nothing about, then yes you do have to take some responsibility.

One last thing, the vast majority of airborne GPS recievers don't just take you along a line with no thought to what's around. All that I've used (pretty much all of the available makes) tell you what airspace and whether there are restricted areas or danger areas around you, so in theory, if you are following the GPS only and not looking out of the window, it should show you and usually tell you when you are close to somewhere like D129, so I don't think your problem lies with over reliance on GPS, rather the opposite in fact.
If you use a something like a colour moving map display, then you would be amazed by the amount of information available to you, including the location of danger areas.

One point about whinging. if you are grumping on about someone's actions, but not prepared to do anything about it, then you are whinging. If however you intend to try and resolve the situation somehow, then you are passing on information and not being a whinge bag!

[Go Smoke]

One last thing, the vast majority of airborne GPS recievers don't just take you along a line with no thought to what's around. All that I've used (pretty much all of the available makes) tell you what airspace and whether there are restricted areas or danger areas around you, so in theory, if you are following the GPS only and not looking out of the window, it should show you and usually tell you when you are close to somewhere like D129, so I don't think your problem lies with over reliance on GPS, rather the opposite in fact.
If you use a something like a colour moving map display, then you would be amazed by the amount of information available to you, including the location of danger areas.
I do use a colour moving map display when flying and am very familiar with current gps systems.
It's all too easy to ignore the 'airspace ahead' warnings, and don't forget these are dependant on the parameters you have set, but also, if the pilot is relying solely on gps when he programmes his waypoints/flight rather than also plotting his route on a chart he is allot less likely to pick up any possible conflict between route and restricted zones. Potentially any particular conflict may only become apparent when en-route and possibly (dependant on settings) when only a few miles out from the problem area.
Now, if the pilot is having a bit of a chin wag, gazing into the middle distance, etc, etc he may be less likely to pick up this conflict.

One point about whinging. if you are grumping on about someone's actions, but not prepared to do anything about it, then you are whinging. If however you intend to try and resolve the situation somehow, then you are passing on information and not being a whinge bag!
Well, with 1,500 topic views it could well be argued that a significant amount of pilots might now be a little more conscious of D129 than they were before. The intention of the thread was to bring about a discussion on D129 and by doing so maybe nudge a few awareness’s.