R22 Down in Stanger

[Latent Heat]

Heard yesterday that a R22 went down in Stanger (just north of Durban)

Not sure of the details.... Anyone heard anything?

[LOAC]

R22 (ZS-RBT),piloted by a student on a Nav, crashed near Stanger.
Piper Cherokee 140 (ZS-FOR), piloted by a student crash landed onto a beach abeam La Mercy.
Piper Cub, piloted by the fixed wing Chief Instuctor, veered off the runway at Virginia on landing and ended up in the hedge.

3 accidents in one day for Starlight on Friday 17th.

Are the stars falling for Starlight?

[mauw]

Just heard another R22 crashed near Hazelmere dam today. Apparently heli is a write-off (ZS-RLC / Starlight).Any worrd on the condition of the pilot?

[herindoors]

One of the stars that have fallen from Starlite is Slade no longer CEO.So who is now catching this falling starlite?

[glimmerman_alpha]

One of the stars that have fallen from Starlite is Slade no longer CEO.So who is now catching this falling starlite?

Thats News! Didnt know the man left his company.

Starlite CT is not doing to good either but with the "management" team they have there I am not surprised.

[mauw]

ZS-RLC flew into wires on Tuesday 10 Jan 2006. Pilot is one of several SAPS students training at Starlight.Student was on a solo low-flying exercise.Student is fine, with only a few scratches but R22 a wite-off.It was fresh out of a re-biuld. ZS-RBT which crashed in September was also piloted by SAPS student whilst on a solo navigation exercise.Clutch light came on and student eneterd autorotation but did not flare at the end.

Is there a pattern developing here, and if so what?

Both students recieving instruction at Starlight.
Both aircraft maintained by Starlight.

[I.R.PIRATE]

Or could it be the SAPS trainees?

[iceweed]

Hhhmmmm.....

[Solid Rust Twotter]

There's a thread on another BB about qualified pilots trying to join the SAPS Air Wing. Is it cheaper to train pilots ab initio while paying them a salary or is this just another slap in the face for a certain sector of SA's population?:(

[Bravo44]

Thats News! Didnt know the man left his company.

Starlite CT is not doing to good either but with the "management" team they have there I am not surprised.

Get your facts straight idiot, what do you know? As a student who has trained at Starlite who's dealt personally with the "management team" there, i can vouch that they are doing exceptionally well at the moment and they are clearly on top of things! So obviously your'e someone that thinks you know it all but all you are is a dumbass!!!! :ok:

[4HolerPoler]

This being your first post (under your new name) doesn't lend much credibility to your demand for "getting facts straight" does it Bravo44?

4HP

[AAL]

Let's hazard a guess, - Bravo44 is one of those arrogant new young positive Saffers who can not distinguish between the trees and the roses. Perhaps he is concerned about how these incidents reflect on his own standard of training, and would like to suggest that the number of succesive incidents are merely coincidence.

Bravo44, wake up and smell the roses, you dont have the privelage or experience to call other people names nor to throw stones or point fingers if you live in a glass house. How many machines did you write off while you were training? When you address the "old manne" you have to type in capitals and show some respect.

If there is anything more you need or want to know about the industry, you have found the right place. If nothing to contribute then just observe - you might learn a lot and get a few surprises in the process.

[canthover]

Bravo44 got a little unhinged it would seem, but still has not thrown any light on the CEO stepping down. Anyone have the real answer to this?

[glimmerman_alpha]

Get your facts straight idiot, what do you know? As a student who has trained at Starlite who's dealt personally with the "management team" there, i can vouch that they are doing exceptionally well at the moment and they are clearly on top of things! So obviously your'e someone that thinks you know it all but all you are is a dumbass!!!! :ok:

:p:p :p

Bravo 44,

Firstly, my facts are straight. I have dealt with Starlite CT many times and it always turns into a mess. The Durban bunch are much better to deal with.

Secondly, are you sure you are not one of the "management" members:}

Thirdly, if you wish to talk that way - go find another forum.

Maybe you should go ask the the team at Starlite CT what their plans are for relocating this year....:}

[Bravo44]

This being your first post (under your new name) doesn't lend much credibility to your demand for "getting facts straight" does it Bravo44?

4HP

Im sorry to disappoint you but this wouldn't be my first post 4HolerPoler!!;)

[Jared]

glimmerman_alpha you are in obvious need of some salient facts. Starlite Aviation is regarded highly both abroad and in South Africa, as anyone with any sense knows. Starlite Aviation in Cape Town excels in its chosen line of business and has a positive and friendly air despite facing many and varied challenges. ALL the staff are known and loved by past and present pilots who have flown there, as have I. Remember, glimmerman or woman, it is a coward who pontificates as holding the key to all knowledge, as you do, while hiding behind a pseudonym. As you read this at your pc you should feel ashamed! Jared.

[organ donor]

4HolerPoler,
I think the mere mention of credibility goes out the window on this whole thread, judging from some of the posts by others. I might question why you choose to pick on the one guy who has something good to say about Starlite when MAUW suggests in his post that a clutch light coming on and a flight into wires may have something to do with Starlight maintenance! Does that become a credible statement because he has posted twice previously? Especially as a moderator, may I suggest that you judge the credibility of posts by their content, and not by the date of registration.
And before I am questioned by GA, no, I have no connection with Starlite, but I would be more interested to see this thread being used to discuss why the accidents happened and how to prevent more in the future rather than twisting it into competition bashing.

[herindoors]

The OLD MANNE at starlite is Stretch who has 15000 hrs instruction,Starlite Cape town use ABC for maintenance.No known aircraft or students down in CPT.
Maybe Bravo 44 did smell trees and roses while in Cape Town???

[glimmerman_alpha]

Jared,

I have no problem with Starlite. They are doing well in Durban and they are a respected and qualified bunch. But I know whats happening in CT.

"Remember, glimmerman or woman, it is a coward who pontificates as holding the key to all knowledge, as you do, while hiding behind a pseudonym. As you read this at your pc you should feel ashamed! Jared." This is a RUMOUR network, besides, most of the other people "hiding" on this forum know who I am.

Organ Donor,

All I wanted to know is whether the CEO left. No intention of mudslinging.

"I would be more interested to see this thread being used to discuss why the accidents happened and how to prevent more in the future rather than twisting it into competition bashing." :) Same here

[Jared]

glimmerman_alpha
Your claim that you do not have a problem with Starlite sounds like so much whining in light of your previous initiation of a thread on this network where you incorrectly assert that a Starlite student crossed a runway without clearance.

Once again, you begin your postings on this thread by imparting a blow to Starlite Aviation by the use of the word “either,” now squeal as you unconvincingly perform a u-turn, that it is not Starlite Aviation in Durban that you have a problem with, again claiming the oracle of insider knowledge, but, Starlite in Cape Town who are “relocating.” You are way out of order with your spineless accusations followed by scurrying behind “glimmerman_alpha,” and “RUMOUR Network,” as your defence. Jared.

[mauw]

"MAUW suggests in his post that a clutch light coming on and a flight into wires may have something to do with Starlight maintenance!"

Apologies if this was the impression given Organ Donor. Clearly flying into wires has nothing to do with maintenance, I was actually referring to the 3 accidents in September 2005, all of which were attributed to maintenance, but most specifically to the clutch light problem which had been an outstanding snag for sometime.

The issue is however, outstanding snag or not, why was a solo student not fully prepared on how to analyse, react and even having made the incorrect decision to enter an autorotation, not be able to execute.

"I would be more interested to see this thread being used to discuss why the accidents happened and how to prevent more in the future..."Further more, I fully agree with Organ Donor on this one.

IMHO, the quality of instuction must be questioned. Starlight used to have a reputation for excellent instruction until it's philosphy changed from one of quality to that of money driven quantity,feet through the door,sausage machine type instruction.

How can you have continuity when instructors are rotating on more lucrative far away contracts, leaving the poor students handed down to whomever is left behind.

[mauw]

Referring to Guns post on First Black female copper,chopper pilot, Congrats to the young lady.I too had the pleasure of meeting her when I was in Durbs in October 2005. A smart and articulate individual who had resolved to overlook the politically incorrect attitude of some Saffers at the training school and the non-commital attitude of management at the training school to resolve these issues. No wonder she is not able to talk about the challenges.

Clearly there is no problem with the selection of the students.

Intersesting that the article appeared in the newspaper just one day after the last accident........co-incidence? Or a marketing division at Starlight working overtime?

[herindoors]

Believe The CEO of Starlite resigned his position,to enable him to consentrate on his very lucrative Puma business (Pakistan & Sudan ) The new man in the HOT seat is Barry Duff

[glimmerman_alpha]

glimmerman_alpha

Once again, you begin your postings on this thread by imparting a blow to Starlite Aviation by the use of the word “either,” now squeal as you unconvincingly perform a u-turn, that it is not Starlite Aviation in Durban that you have a problem with, again claiming the oracle of insider knowledge, but, Starlite in Cape Town who are “relocating.” You are way out of order with your spineless accusations followed by scurrying behind “glimmerman_alpha,” and “RUMOUR Network,” as your defence. Jared.

I stand by my point where I do have a issue with Starlite CT.I know facts when I see it on black and white. If you think its spineless accusations go ahead and cry me a river. Its freedom of speech.Obviously you dont have a problem with them so good for you.Can you get off your pedestal now?

"Your claim that you do not have a problem with Starlite sounds like so much whining in light of your previous initiation of a thread on this network where you incorrectly assert that a Starlite student crossed a runway without clearance."

I relayed info which was given to me by a pilot who was in the in the circuit at the time.It was then stated by another PPruner on the thread that it was a Base 4 student. problem solved.

Can we get back to the original topic of the accident and cause.

Good luck to the new CEO.....

[LOAC]

I have been following this thread with great interest.

Once a credible company, now weakend by greed and infalibility.

Thomas doing justice to his slippery nature, slipping the surly bonds of responsibility and handing them over to the fall guy, who doesnt deserve to have been left with the mop to clean up.

And what a mess he has to make good in the eyes of the local aviation community.

[organ donor]

MAUW,
Apology accepted, and I agree with most of what you have to say. Although I don’t know the details of the accident, I agree that a solo student should be able to manage a clutch light illumination in a somewhat better way than this guy did. While I believe that if an instructor fails to teach even the basic stuff like what to do if a light comes on he should be beaten repeatedly over the head I also know that students are capable of the most bizarre actions in given situations. This accident could be due to bad instructing just as much as it could be due to a panicked student. Perhaps this will serve as a reminder to instructors to make sure everything is taught correctly.
As far as his not being able to execute an autorotative landing it seems to be policy in SA (and please correct me if I am wrong) not to train students to perform full EOL’s, so it comes as no surprise that he dinged it. (it was, presumably, his first one after all). A flare recovery is a very different thing to an engine off.

[mauw]

To flare or not to flare.....is this the question? A flare is mandatory, not optional whether practice autos or full EOL's are being executed. I remember having this and the flare height drilled into me as a student.And i quote from the Robinson manual:
Practice autos-Power recovery: "At about 40 feet AGL, begin cyclic fare to reduce rate of descent and forward speed"
Practice autos-with ground contact: "perform in same manner.....Therefore a well timed cyclic flare is required....."
Frank Robinson himself recomends EOL's only for demonstration purposes, which is why they are demonstrated by the instructor and not practiced by the student, so I don't think that this is a SA thing at all.
Further more it states in the Robinson Safety Notice SN-28 that "if a clutch light illuminates in flight for longer than usual, pull the circuit breaker and make a normal power on landing.Be prepared to enter autorotation should failure of the drive system occur."
Ronison SN-16 deliberates the fact that POWER LINES ARE DEADLY.
And so the question remains, do they even read their POH's and what are these students being taught?

[organ donor]

We misunderstand each other. I presumed that the student did flare at the end of that auto and just screwed up the landing part. Did he lose his life? Surely poling it in without flaring would have that effect. My argument is power recovery at the flare is different from an EOL - different pedal inputs, decrease in tail rotor authority etc, not whether to flare or not.
Robinson safety notices are vital reads for students, they do after all, come out as a result of accidents. When I learnt to fly I can’t recall having to do a “solo low flying exercise”. Sounds like asking for trouble to me.

[LOAC]

Heard from the mouth of a student.....

We are forced to fly with unserviceable machines, because maintenance cannot keep up and they do not have enough machines available....

Instructors change all the time and none are teaching the same standard/procedures...

Myburgh, the CFI, is never available or interested whenever we want to discuss any problems.....

The senior instructors, which are supposed to instruct us, are always away to fly Pumas somewhere making lots of money....

and so it went on and on and on!!!!

Gentleman, from the above, decide for yourself!!!!

[mauw]

What a sad,sad day.

7 Accidents in 2 years at one company, and now finally a fatal one.

How many more lives must be lost before action is taken.

Condolences to all.

[LOAC]

Hopefully the "Warloc's" from CAA will now stop thinking of them as the model school and start taking action, enough is enough!!! One life lost is ONE too many!!!

[CoJam]

Been watching this thread last week and now a fatal accident from the mentioned training school.

Once the emotions have settled I'm sure there will be rather hefty investigations at the school.:ugh:

Sad Sad Sad Day

[Voel]

Does anybody keep track how many R22's went down (incl Namibia) since Jan 2005?

[Ossewa]

After reading all the posts, there is just one thing I would like to add... "Bravo 44, 4HP is the Moderator you D**s!!"

[Gunship]

After reading all the posts, there is just one thing I would like to add... "Bravo 44, 4HP is the Moderator you D**s!!"


:p:p:p:p Good one Ossewaaaa :p:p

Myburgh, the CFI, is never available or interested whenever we want to discuss any problems.....

Sad to hear this. I know Koos as a very professional pilot with loads and loads of experience and always an ear to listen to your problem.

I should know he was my flight commander and still a very good friend. I find it very strange that he would not listen to you guys LOAC (when he is available of course) ?

[LOAC]

That was the old Air Force Myburgh, now it is a money driven/greed issue...... that dictates everything

[Gunship]

That was the old Air Force Myburgh, now it is a money driven/greed issue...... that dictates everything


mhhh ok - I pressume you now what you are talking about LOAC. :rolleyes:

[Top Cover]

LOAC, I am afraid I cant see ANY relationship between, the "money driven Myburgh" and the "slippery Thomas" in causing these accidents. Do you know the exact details of the "7" accidents? You obviously have inside gen. Please share!

[B200Drvr]

LOAC, It is easy to mention names and slander people on here when you are anon. Slade Thomas and Starlite have also done a lot of good for South African helicopter aviation. This is a rumour network not a mudslinging event. Even if you have issues with the aforementioned, it is an un-professional character flaw to bring out your dirty laundry on an Anon. forum. as well as blaming him for "handing over to a fall guy" WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING??
Do you think somebody would take a position like that against his will?
Grow up. If you have issues with the likes of Mr Thomas and his company, deal with them yourself and with him. Let CAA be the one that says he does this or that wrong after official investigations. SA aviation has to many people that slag each other off because they feel hard done by, and not enough people who support each other.

[HedgePig]

I have to agree with you B200dvr.

LOAC, your attitude is anti-social and counter-productive. To imply men like Thomas and others would deliberately have a hand in a students death is libellous.

The day you build a CAA accredited organisation with 40+ aircraft and GAINFULLY employ people, I invite you to pick up a stone. If aviation were left with similar views, we would still be sucking our thumbs.

Or, until you're prepared to come out from under your pseudonym, wind your neck in and back off on name-calling. It belongs in kindergarten.

HP.

[4HolerPoler]

Thanks HP - couldn't have said it better myself.

4HP