Sending REA-messages to CFMU

[jangler909]

1. Is the EOBT time entered in the message meant to be the original, planned departure time of the flight or a new one estimated by the controller, based on the fact that the plane is ready for departure right away?

2. Is sending REA after the original EOBT complete waste of time, as the system has already given a CTOT based on that time?

3. Which of the following fields are mandatory? I've heard someone saying that for example EOBD is not necessary... True?

TITLE REA
ARCID <callsign>
ADEP <departure airport>
ADES <destination airport>
EOBD <date>
EOBT <time>
MINLINEUP <time>

[crjlover]

From an ops point of view:

The EOBT are the original.
lots of time (almost always) our crew ask for a REA after the EOBT. Sometimes it work sometimes it doesn't so I don' t think that it is waste of time.

[prospero]

Ladies and Gentlemen

A REA may be sent between EOBT minus 30 Mins and CTOT of the flight.
When the REA is filed before the EOBT, the flight is considered as having a new EOBT at this filing time and the Minlineup as the revised taxi time.

To keep track of the difference between the filed off block time and the effective one in ETFMS all subsequent ATFCM messages include the field IOBT (IOBT= latest EOBT filed before the REA was sent)

That is straight from the book and I can tell you that it is THE best way to get an improvement if you are within the above mentioned parameters and have only one regulation. More than one reg then give us a call.

If you don't get improved its cos there ain't any room not because we are bloody-minded.
Prospero

L+G
Having re-read the original post I realised that my first answer didn\'t quite address the question. Here goes with a better attempt:

1. Is the EOBT time entered in the message meant to be the original, planned departure time of the flight or a new one estimated by the controller, based on the fact that the plane is ready for departure right away?

It\'s the new one.

2. Is sending REA after the original EOBT complete waste of time, as the system has already given a CTOT based on that time?

No it\'s the best way (See my original reply)

3. Which of the following fields are mandatory? I\'ve heard someone saying that for example EOBD is not necessary... True?

As far as I am aware they are all mandatory. We often have two callsigns in the system with different EOBD\'s due to RPL\'s

I hope that helps if not give the CFMU a call. We really are lovely people ;)

[Adola69]

Scenario, which happened last week.
Aircraft has EOBT AND Flight planned dep time of 0730.
Due to large delays at destination, CTOT comes through of 1215.
To keep the flight plan updated and within tolerance of HCS, the Handling agent / company update the planned ETD to 1200.
Three minutes later an CTOT is issued of 1510 !!!!!

By doing what is required in updating a flight-planned ETD, they attracted a further 2hrs and 55min delay. We checked with TMFMP and they said that if they had left the ETD alone then the original CTOT would have remained unchanged. However if they had done that then the flight plan would have dropped out of HCS!

The two do not appear to be working in harmony?

Comments anyone - confused:uhoh:

[360BakTrak]

A certain operator where I work had a 3 hour delay into Dublin, so as I was sorting out a ready message another strip popped out........and then another! Their Ops thought it would be a good idea to file another 2 flight plans with slight differences in callsign in the hope that one of them wouldn't get a slot! Needless to say the London Supervisor was less than impressed!! :ugh:

[crjlover]

@ Adola69

I think that you should have to talk with your :mad: handling agent.....

[prospero]

Adola69
This is a common misconception. If you are delayed by a CTOT you do not need to update your FPL unless you cannot make the CTOT. In that case you should send a DLA message. When your handling agent updated your EOBT the ETFMS took that as a delay and pushed into the next available slot, in this case at the end of the queue.

I can't remember the requirements for HCS but as far as I am aware if a flight is regulated it is taken care of by the CTOT as above. If not regulated then normal ICAO update rules apply.

Its all in our manual available from all good bookshops and the website.

Best Regards
PRospero;)

[Evil J]

prospero- does that mean then that filing a Rea AFTER the eobt, say in the case of large CTOT delay will have no effect? You will already be trying to bring the CTOT forward as best as possible?

[prospero]

Evil-J
The idea behind an REA is that ATC can tell us exactly when an aircraft is actually ready to taxi and can be airborne in a very short time. It is there to help ATC with sequencing as much as anything.
That is why only the tower can send an REA and they can specify the taxi time.

Sending a REA within the parameters stated mentioned in the previous reply is the best way to get an improvement.

The REA will work best if there is only one regulation as that gives the computer the best chance of finding an improvement. It is all done by the computer as opposed to a help desk call where we use our "skill and judgement" (!) to move flights forward or back.
Hope this helps
Prospero

[jangler909]

Here are a few more questions to clarify things. A following message arrived today:

-TITLE SAM
-ARCID <callsign>
-IFPLID AA51782718
-ADEP <xxxx>
-ADES <xxxx>
-EOBD 050928
-EOBT 1115
-CTOT 1124
-REGUL <xxxxxxx>
-TAXITIME 0005
-REGCAUSE GA 87

When the aircraft requested start-up and REA, I sent the following message at exactly 11:11:45(sec):

-TITLE REA
-ARCID <callsign>
-ADEP <xxxx>
-ADES <xxxx>
-EOBD 050928
-EOBT 1112
-MINLINEUP 0003

On the next minute we got an improvement as follows:

-TITLE SRM
-ARCID <callsign>
-IFPLID AA51782718
-ADEP <xxxx>
-ADES <xxxx>
-EOBD 050928
-EOBT 1111
-IOBT 1115
-NEWCTOT 1117
-REGUL <xxxxxxx>
-TAXITIME 0005
-REGCAUSE GA 87

Later I had another case with exactly similar results.

Ok prospero, you said:

"When the REA is filed before the EOBT, the flight is considered as having a new EOBT at this filing time and the Minlineup as the revised taxi time."

It truly seemed as the new EOBT was the filing time of the REA, and NOT the new EOBT time entered by me. Also the taxitime did not get any revision (is 0005 a minimum?) Under these circumstances, why on earth do we have to enter an EOBT and not just simply send a REA with nothing more than ARCID, ADEP and ADES. If she is ready right now, then she is! Also a colleague told he regularly removes the entire EOBD -line and receives SRM:s normally. The need for it seems a bit unclear, because how could anyone assume a flight planned for tomorrow (in case of RPL) would be ready for departure NOW :confused: :D .

My common sense says that the EOBT should be the original and planned EOBT so that the CFMU's state-of-the-art computer would detect the correct flight plan. There could always be the same callsign flying the same route many times a day!

2. Is sending REA after the original EOBT complete waste of time, as the system has already given a CTOT based on that time?No it's the best way (See my original reply)

What difference does it ultimately make? You are already trying to improve the CTOT (or not?). I don't get the point...

[vipero]

"It is not possible to amend (via CHG or DLA) the EOBT to an earlier time than the EOBT given in the flight plan however, if a flight is ready to go off blocks earlier than the current EOBT, then there are two options available:
©¤ The AO may ask the local ATC Unit (TWR) or the FMP to send a Ready (REA) message. In this case, the flight is considered as "ready to depart" from the filing time of the REA message.
©¤ The AO may contact Central Flow Help Desk who have the possibility to input an earlier EOBT into the TACT system (max ¨C30 minutes). Each case is treated on its merits and may be refused if it is considered that "abuse" is involved.".

My question (or better: pray :) : Is there any chance to make ATC staffs aware that when a crew is asking to leave earlier (providing not regulated by a CTOT) by using a REA, they are entitled to do so?
As far as I'm concerned, in Italy, Greece and Spain is very very hard to have such option available, since controllers standard reply is "ask yr ops to amend the eobt or the fpl"...

Cheers

[Caledonian]

Can anyone confirm that as an Ops Man could l put in a REA message from a sita terminal or is it only ATC that can do this, there is an option on the CFMU to send an RFI message but never seems to do too much!

[vipero]

REA can be sent by ATC only. Ops can only send RFI (REA has anyway priority on RFI, then if a fpl shows a REA status, is not accepting any further RFI).

[Exel]

The ability for an OPR to send an REA was specifically removed as the system was being abused.

Airlines were sending REA's and receiving slot improvements when they were in fact NOT READY to taxi. This caused higher delays and a number of slots to go unused.

[huv]

Original question:
3. Which of the following fields are mandatory? I've heard someone saying that for example EOBD is not necessary... True?

True, according to CFMU 10 release notes
http://www.mxp-users.com/cfmu_release_notes_10v2.pdf
page 32.

[chiglet]

prospero,
The CTOT has no effect on the HCS "P" time [Proposed departure time]. That has to be done manually [at Manch, dunno about elsewhere]
The SSR drops after 90 mins, and I think that it's 4 hour for the Flight Plan to fall out
watp,iktch

[prospero]

Bloody hell Chiglet it only took you a year to answer my query. Talk about delay, you should work here...
Prospero
PS If you think hard you may remember me, I sat next to you for a few years in Manch tower....

[chiglet]

'sNot me. It's that huv character. HE resurected this thread :ok:
How ya doin' mate?
watp,iktch

[eyeinthesky]

Apart from the technicalities of the flow system, am I the only one who thinks that, faced with:

-EOBT 1115
-CTOT 1124
-REGUL <xxxxxxx>
-TAXITIME 0005

filing a ready message is a waste of time and ties up the system unnecessarily? What with taxi times and slot tolerances, that's an on-time departure!

[ATCO2]

Hi there,

ATC and Pilots have some problems with CTOT everywhere I think. REA is sent only when you have a CTOT given by CFMU. REA is not applicable for earlier dep what some pilots want. Normaly, FPL is available to ATC 30 min prior EOBT and if TWR or APP ask ACC for a clearance, it will be given without any problem. It means, you guys-pilots, if you want to depart earlier than EOBT, be polite and ask ATC for sturt up and taxi within 30 min of your EOBT. REA is sent to TWR and AO and sometimes is very late. Normaly, when there is any CTOT available earlier than you have, it will be given to you as an improvement or proposal for a new CTOT. It is on you to accept. Sometimes, CTOT is revised and is given even worse than previous one, why, due to some new regulations established or the previous one is more restricted. We know that you are in a hurry sometimes and we do our best to help you pilots. When you have a CTOT given, you have to depert within tolerance -5/+10 min of your CTOT. Sometimes we do for example +12, it is on our responsibility, just to help you not to ask for the new one if you are late by 2 min.

I wish you a nice flight with no CTOTs.

[Barnaby the Bear]

Not quite. A FPL can be activated 15mins prior or after EOBT. If a pilot requests to depart prior to this it will have to be re filed for the earlier time. If later then a Delay message is sent.
If a CTOT is given, and the pilot reports ready before the slot tollerance (5 ins prior, 10 mins after CTOT), then a ready message may be sent.
If it looks like you will be out of slot tollerance, a call to flow, can 'sometimes' buy an extra couple of mins.

[nodelay]

Interesting thread. Prospero, thanks for sharing your knowledge. I have some Q's:

1. If a/c has CTOT, does it automatically improve towards the EOBT + taxi time if REA is not filed?

2. AO's are supposed to send DLA if Fpl is > than EOBT + 15 (ie out of date); are they able to contact Brussells directly to ask for favourable treatment and if so is their situation given any more priority over other operators that haven't contacted Brussells?

3. Do ALL AIRPORTS adhere strictly to CTOT -5/+10. C'mon, be honest ;) ?

4. LACC FMP. Do you mind Airports ringing up and asking for an extra 5 or does it really cause you a lot more hassle when you may already be busy??

Sorry for 'piggybacking' on the this thread - just seemed a good place to ask the question(s).

[Gonzo]

1) No, only if the AO has filed an RFI.

3) No, in our MATS pt.2 we have various rules which allow us to depart a/c after the +10 in various circumstances.

[flowman]

Prospero must be having a lie down so I'll chip in while he is away.

Apart from the technicalities of the flow system, am I the only one who thinks that, faced with:
-EOBT 1115
-CTOT 1124
-REGUL <xxxxxxx>
-TAXITIME 0005
filing a ready message is a waste of time and ties up the system unnecessarily? What with taxi times and slot tolerances, that's an on-time departure!

Not true. If your EOBT is 1115 and you are ready to go at 1045 the a REA message is definitely not a waste of time. Don't forget it can be sent up to 30 minutes before EOBT.

nodelay, to answer some of your questions.
1. Yes, unless you have put your flight in SIP wanted status all flights are assumed ready for improvement. They will only receive improvements of minimum 15 minutes though and subject to parameters such as taxi time.
REA status means you will receive even 5 minute improvements right down to an assumed 5 minute taxi time or whatever the TWR have specified in the REA message.
2. You are supposed to send a delay message, if you then receive a big delay you can call us for assistance. However, it is now normal practice for AOs to call the help desk to ask for an extension. If a slot is available it will normally be given to you. After a hundred such calls some may cry ENOUGH! and ask you to send a delay - we do have other things to do and the help desk was established to help people who have a genuine problem that requires specialist advice. To answer your question, the response you will receive is at the individuals discretion.
3. No
I hope this helps.
flowman

[dunadan06]

If a CTOT is given, and the pilot reports ready before the slot tollerance (5 ins prior, 10 mins after CTOT), then a ready message may be sent.
Slot tollerance is for ATC needs only ;) , the pilot is supposed to be ready as close as possible to CTOT
If it looks like you will be out of slot tollerance, a call to flow, can 'sometimes' buy an extra couple of mins.
If you give ATC a call to get an extra couple of mins, please make sure your handling agent does NOT sent a DLA message as well (at least wait for the ATC's answer ;) )
Same thing if you will be ready for T/O at CTOT+5. Please, pretty please, give us a call BEFORE sending the DLA message.

... that is, if you don't want a 3h delay ;) :ugh:

[Barnaby the Bear]

Wise words. :ok:

[chiglet]

Also remember that the slot is for an aeroplane at the holding point NOT on stand. "Ground xxx123 for start" "xxx123, you've missed your slot of 1025" "But it's only 1015...." "Correct, but you are no3 to start and there are 10 at the holding point" :ugh: :ugh: It happens every day:{
watp,iktch

[Ops and Mops]

Chiglet

Your point is one of my biggest bug bears when Airline and Ground Handling agents are aware of CTOT's and don't pass them onto crews. Also when crews that have been made aware of their CTOT by ATC, still think they can make their slot by requesting push and start at or after the CTOT time.

Crews/Ops/Dispatchers:

The -5/+10 is a tactical tool for use by ATCO's when aircraft are caught in a queue at the hold or are ahead of aircraft with similar CTOT's. Please do NOT get ar$ey on the RT when we tell you we cannot get you started and airborne in time. ATCOs and ATSAs have other things to be doing than begging to FMP and using our ace cards when we really need them for guys AT THE HOLD!

My advice to crews is always to check in with Ground (or Delivery) no later than 10 mins before your CTOT or EOBT if it looks like you are running late. The controller can then tell you your latest CTOT (if any) and if there is a chance of you getting away or not in the current traffic situation. If the answer is not favourable, at least you can then have comapny send a DLA or re-negotiate a new CTOT, and as soon as you are fully ready a REA can be sent. I find that this very often triggers a slot improvement fairly quickly rather than getting into the relams of Missed Slots being dealt with after CTOT.

Finally with regard to EOBT tolerance for HCS, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do try and get company to update your EOBT if it is outside -/+15 mins. This is primarily for FMP forecast purposes and helps to avoid ATC Sector overloads. Although ATC are able to send a DLA, it is not our responsibility to do so (we are not really supposed to amend flight plans not originated by us), and is normally done out of the goodness of our hearts if:

a) We are not busy AND you have tried and failed to get any joy out of company.

b) The new EOBT is only a few minutes out (NOT 30 mins or more!!)

c) We don't get our heads bitten off if a CTOT is then issued based on the new EOBT.

Again, my top tip is to get onto company as soon as you know you are going to be early or late on your EOBT and keep the plan fresh. Nothing worse than having to do the same thing with the doors closed, tug attached and ready to go. Remeber to go early on your EOBT -15, the plan has to be refiled in toto.

Some companies are better at this than others, but the only way they will all get the message is if crews keep the pressure on them from first contact on "Company" inbound, to perhaps a quick check as boarding is completing before the "Before Start" checks!

[chiglet]

Ops,
Had a phone call 'tother day "Has ABC123 got airbourne yet? 'cos hi pushed 20 mins ago"
Me "No"
Co "Why not"
Me "'Cos we are an International Airport" :E
Co "What do you mean?"
Me "He's no 12 in the queue" :ouch:
watp,iktch