HUET recency.

[bellfest]

I have done a few HUET courses now am I am beginning to wonder whether the 2 year recency requirement isn't a bit over the top. While I wouldn't be stupid enough to say I know it all I think that it maybe should be a bit more relaxed after a few goes. Say, after 3, the requirement is 3 years instead of 2. The course itself is one of the most beneficial things I personally have done but I think that they could extend the valadility after a while. It's not the cheapest exercise either.
I would like to know what others think

[Brilliant Stuff]

I like doing them as often as is required, it is amazing how much one keeps forgetting, also it depends on the course but our last one was a bit rushed.

I wish though we could crack on with STASS.

[bellfest]

I kind of agree with you in a way. You can never have too much of a good thing. That shot of chlorinated water up the snozzer is a bastard though. There could be other ways to remind us of those things forgotten. Maybe a theory course to freshen up instaed of the whole deal.
Forgive my ignorance but what is STASS? Is ia a UK thing?

[Brilliant Stuff]

I guess you are right one could do a refresher in the classroom after 2 years and then go back in the water the following year or some timing like that. I used to use my survival suit which I fly in and stayed 99% dry which cut down on the drag of undressing and all that.

Stass is where you take with you a little Oxygen bottle like James Bond or Pamela Anderson on Baywatch duty which is like a miniature Diving outfit. So you can breath for 5 minutes under water. i have done my HUET once with it 6 years ago because it looked like we were going to get it but nothing came of it though I am told Aberdeen are thinking about it again so we should get it in the next 100 years then.

The two Dauphin's in Plymouth who who supply the Navy ship's with personnel and stuff have STASS because the Navy requires them to have it. So it is perfectly possible to have.

[bellfest]

I spoke to the last instructor who conducted the HUET about the under water breathing apparatus. His organisation don't and in his words "never will" train people to use it. He said it is too complicated and time consuming. Even more so than scuba diving. I am a bit of an ametuer when it comes to underwater and this fella was an ex-navy crewie with a ****load of experience so I took his word for it.
I would feel very comfortable having one of those little numbers on me and the ability to use it.
It would have to be on you yeah? It would be a little more complicated if you had to search around a dark cockpit for it considering it would be most beneficial if you did happen to get disorientated.

[Brilliant Stuff]

I didn't get any training on it all they said: Stick it in your mouth and breath through your mouth and now we are dunking you ready or not. That was it.
But yes it has to be on you otherwise you might not find it.

[Langball]

I believe you are talking about two different pieces of kit here. The basic one is a 're-breather' when you exhale and inhale out of a bag (as exhaled air still has about 80% oxygen content). Fairly basic, not much training required.

The second one is a mini 'aqua-lung', i.e. bottle of compressed air. Our helicopter pilots were issued them (CHC) and hey-presto, they were taken off them again. I believe it was due to product liability, training, legal stuff.

[L'WAAPAM]

Hi Guys,

There was a Lynx crash in Bosnia a few years back. 5 POB. Only one survivor. It crashed into the Adriatic after clipping a blade in the water and sank.

All the crew were HUET and STASS trained. The guy who survived was 1 of 3 passenger's in the back. He was not aircrew but used to drive guys to the HUET every 3 months or so. So as to avoid bordem waiting for the others he asked if he could jump in as well, so ended up doing the HUET VERY regularly!!!!! As you can see he was probably the most recent guy in the Lynx at the time and probably the unit.

The Capt did get out and surfaced, however, he tried to go back down to free the others and became trapped.

Food for thought???

Also STASS (Short Term Air Supply System) is awesome. I could get about 5 mins out of a cylinder ( in a nice warm pool with no stress!!!) would guess about 30 secs in cold water and flapping!!

Cheers

L'

[bellfest]

The aqua-lung is the one I was referring to and that is exactly what the instuctor said, too hard when it comes to liability etc.
It would be handy if you could just buy one to have for your own peace of mind but the authorities won't allow you to have it on your lifejacket without all the proper approvals etc.

Maybe the guy in the Lynx proved the more you do the HUET the better hey?
I guess it all very much depends on the individual as well. I have done the course with blokes that have done it 6 or 7 times before and they are still unbuckling in the roll and quite happy to kick you in the teeth on their way out if you get in their way(Which is normally not a problem as you are still tryng to find your exit when they hit the surface!).
On the the other hand there are first timers who are calm and do it by the book right from the start.
It is all different in the cold deep blue in a real machine of course but it may serve as a good indication none the less.
THat's very unfortunate about the Capt. He didn't have to go back down but he chose to. Was the machine inverted on the surface or was it sinking?

[Brilliant Stuff]

I was talking about the Aqua-lung.

When it happens for real you might react quite differently, but if you keep training the body won't the body be better equipped for the incident even if it is done in a nice warm flat swimming pool?

[bellfest]

It's just extra help isn't it. All the help you can get is a good thing in that situation.
As with the case of the poor fella in Bosnia, particularly if your pax aren't huet trained, there is a bloody good chance that you will be going back down to try and retrieve them. Even if you didn't utilise the aqua lung on your egress it could be very helpful in that situation.

[Thomas coupling]

We use it for our searches coastal and over very large lakes!
Train in it every 3 yrs with the HUET course in Fleetwood.
God send! Makes life a lot calmer under water in the dark..gives you that extra reserve to draw on to identify any snagging hazards as you try to egress...prevents you from panicking.

2 mins full in warm water and max 30 secs cold panicking.

Strapped into a pouch on our mae west.

I know of 3 persons whose lives were saved by STASS.

Wouldnt fly over water (prolonged) without it now I suppose.

[bellfest]

I would not be surprised if it becomes a mandatory requirement like life jackets one day in the not too distant future for some authorities. This wouldn't be such a bad thing for the crews out there.
One of the operators in the southern half of Aust. had the initiative to purchase the aqua-lung and have it stowed in their switliks and CASA ( Civil Aviation Safety Authority) discovered this and made them remove them all due to having no approval to do so.
That was a fair while ago and I believe they are still battling through mountains of paperwork to get it approved.
You would think that they would support such an initiative and get it approved as soon as possible in the name of safety considering that is there sole purpose.
Anything that gives you extra time under water has got to be worth its weight in gold. I guess there is no-one around that wishes they had one!

[BigMike]

This could be the go as well:
http://www.spareair.com/product/models.htm#model170

A little bit simpler than the Aqua-lung bottle, with you not having to fumble around for the regulator. Either one would be better than nothing though, should you get tangled or have to go back under to free the pax.

BM

[gadgetguru]

I used to act as a safety/rescue diver for a HUET training team in Sydney (I think they were based out of Woolongong).

The majority of the clients that I experienced were news crews; Journo's, cameramen, sound guys etc. & with the pilots in there for good measure.

Every time at least one person (the pilots included but less frequent) would get complacent about it & lose the plot when something out of their comfort zone occured, usually a nosefull of water when they weren't really expecting it.

At which point all training would go out the window, literally, discarding everything that they had just been taught & had practised several times & this was 'just another drill' most were always mumbling "how many of these do we have to do?"

In short I don't believe that you can ever have enough practise at this.

Regardless of how many drills were made by the same individuals, in exactly the same sequence, and all in a controlled environment, (& with the knowledge that there was a safety diver present with a emergency 'pony' bottle underwater & at the ready) particularly when an additional variable was thrown at them, like tipping forward instead of sideways etc.

These incidents were usually well into the training so they had had plenty of practise, but before we had really started throwing any curly problems at them, like not telling them which way the fuselage was going to roll or which door was going to malfunction/jam.

Even for those who don't make a habit of flying over water regularly, heve never ventured offshore or over any other significant body of water, I'd suggest that if the opportunity comes up to attend some HUET training jump at the opportunity, even if you have no requirement for renewal, I guarantee it will change the way you look at a body of water when next you fly over the top of one.(read fly around the bloody thing, or at least with enough height to auto to either side in case of power failure)

& for those of you who fly without a helmet, you are drastically raising the odds against yourself, especially when you consider about bouncing yourself around a cockpit at the point of contact with the water, which then turns into a watery tomb.

I have heard several stories of pilots in HUET training that still freak out, having had the misfortune of experiencing the real thing without prior training , & pretty much run over anything or anyone in their way to get out, fellow pilots included.

If the army taught me one thing, it was "as you train, so shall you fight"
No point pretending to do anything, because when the real thing occurs it will be nothing like the nice clean (& warm) 10' swimming pool you trained in, but that exposure & knowledge will probably get you home to loved ones.


after all it only takes a couple of inches of water to drown in...

for those of you pursuing the personal bottles, i commend you, but make sure it's located appropriately on your personal kit & on a extending lanyard so you don't need to hunt for it& won't lose it, for those of you who are not divers, might I recommend that you get some dive theory up, even go & do a recreational dive course if you like, because that first 10 meters is the most lethal, if the aircraft impacts & sinks quickly (for any reason) & you exit the aircraft at depth (within even 5 meters) & you are relying on the bottle, only use it to get yourself out, once you are out of the aircraft & headed for the surface, I'd recommend to anyone to remove the bottle & blow bubbles continuously to the surface.

The last thing you want to do is survive a water impact, only to self inflict a pressure related injury like a barotrauma or the bends.
(& before anyone ridicules it I've seen well trained divers get the bends from diving in & ascending too fast from a mere 4.2 meters.

Fly safe.

[L'WAAPAM]

The Lynx (as I know) was inverted and sinking when the Capt went back down. He got snagged on something and dragged down. Very sad.

GG

Here, Here

I do not think any amount of training for this type of thing is enough. The more the better.

L'

[Thomas coupling]

excellent input gadgetguru. Thanks for that.

[bellfest]

That was a great deal of useful information in one post. You are the gadgetguru!
I would never have thought that you could be effected by ascending from that depth.
After reading all the info in this thread I have now decided that I will be doing all the HUET courses I can. Better too much than not enough yeah.
I have performed quite well in all my HUET courses and never been in a situation of panic but it is a bit arragont to not see that the only reason I haven't is because nothing has gone wrong for me.
Though you wish it to go smoothly a snagged life jacket or shoe would probably do you the world of good in a controlled situation like that.
The helmet issue is very true, it should be used whenever possible. Tourist flying is probably the only thing where you can't use one. Well you can but you will have every second Joe asking you why they don't have one or why you need one.

[pitchlink]

T-C check your PMs. Thanks.

[hemac]

As part of my sport diving kit I have a Bouyancy Compensation Device, which is basically an inflatable waste coat that plugs into my main cylinder. Built into the BCD is a small (pony) cylinder and regulator valve. If my main cylinder runs out, it shouldn't, I can use the air in the pony cyclinder for both bouyancy and life support.
Would it not be possible to develop something like this, but not so bulky, for heli crews flying over water?

H.

[victor two]

Just for your interest, they have just finished the process of commissioning the HUET trainer for the new Australian Defence Force Tiger choppers. Based in Darwin, NT, the module itself is two cockpit mockups, one front seat and one back seat made of stainless steel. The cockpits are actually joined nose to nose so crew can look at each other, unlike the real machine and the roll actuator is basically just a big air tank on the botton of the cockpit structure that will flip the whole rig over once it sinks into the water. The Pilot station has a stick and collective built into it and both stations have a seat mounted in the module complete with all straps and harness etc. I saw the inital demonstration dunks. The rig is suspended on an outdoor crane and gets lowered into a crystal clear, warm swimming pool at a nice slow pace in a perfectly level attitude and then slowly rolls over as it gets deeper. Crew then unhook the straps and swim out. It does not have any opening doors or window perspex installed, just the frames to represent where the doors and glass would be. I have to say, it did not look too challenging. Nice slow dunks and rolls, no jammed exits or obstructions, warm clear water.............. I guess that it's to the specs that the Army required and I certainly hope that it prepares the pilots for a real water escape but most chopper landings on water would be something more turbulent and chaotic I would imagine.

[Ascend Charlie]

I recall seeing a US Navy film from the 50s showing "Dilbert Dunker", a side-by-side cockpit frame with seats. It sat atop a set of rails, about 10' above the edge of the pool. On "go" it slid down the rails and hit the water headfirst with quite an impact, and then rolled over the nose to inverted.

I suppose in those days there was no Occupational Health and Safety Act, and as a result it was fairly realistic.

I hope the Tiger sim gets some doors (jammable) and seat belts (jammable) and they wear blackout goggles for the night ops and murky water.

[bellfest]

As AC has pointed out I don't think that anyone would get away with slamming a dunker into the water these days. I magine the laesuits involved in a crook back or similair.
It sounds like they could notch up the under water part though.
Any training is good training I guess.

hemac,

Some type of breathing device incorporated into the life jacket would be sensational. Some of the bottles I have looked at are up to 32cmx5cm. That's a pretty bulky device to have strapped outside your life jacket that could end up being what snags you.

This may sound like a stupid question(because it may be a stupid question!) but is there any means by storing the oxygen in a high press. hose say, 120cmx2-2.5cm and coiling it within a jacket as to not add any extra protrusions?


Bigchopper,
What happened mate? You got booted off.
Weee bet rrrrude!
From my experience it is the lazy people that look forward to days off.
Have you ever had your kilt snared while trying to egress?
Have you ever considered playing amazing grace on the bag pipes on the way down and then using that as a breathing device to escape?

[cl12pv2s]

Hello,

I am a keen tech diver as well as pilot, so have a couple of cents to chip in. I think GadgetGuru's post is excellent.

I fully agree that continued recurrency training is the only way to keep your skills sharp. After a year, your knowledge of a subject may still be fresh, but your physical skill and ability may well have eroded.

ABSOLUTELY IMPORTANT: I also would like to go further to stress the importance of breathing out as you ascend. ONLY IF USING A STASS or UNDERWATER BREATHING APARATUS.

In addition, I would like to suggest, that anyone using a 'Spare air' or pony-type bottle (for emergency egress or recreational diving) really consider the limitations of this system and get proper training, before adding them to your emergency equipment. Test on it, and train with it or IT WILL KILL YOU! No point in having something, and then when you really need it, you find you can't turn it on or it runs out!

Some simple maths...It holds 85 litres at 200 bar so its is 0.42 litres in size. Assume a 10 m/min ascent rate (to allow for delay in egress and equipment / clothing drag)

Assuming our 40 lpm panic breath rate (and I've seen higher).
10m bail requres 80 l so OK (Just)
20m bail requires 120 l so you're dead
30m bail requires 160 l so you're very dead

Even assuming a 20l breath rate (and many people use more than this at rest)
10m bail requres 40 l so OK
20m bail requires 60 l so you're OK
30m bail requires 80 l so you're OK (just)

As you can see from this, it could be easy to run out very quickly unless you are pretty focused, fit and well practiced. It is definitely not a system to use to return to depth and attempt a rescue of others.

I personally have not been that keen on them because the capacity of these systems is usually too small for they type of diving I am doing. However for Helicopter emergency egress I fully support their use (with proper training). As they say 'owt is better than nowt'. Any little thing can help.

The most important thing is to 'STOP, ASSESS, ACT'.

cl12pv2s

http://www.spareair.com/product/images_prod/300pkyel.jpg