Is there a pilot onboard? [Archive]

Yellow Sun

11th Sep 2005, 11:59

Dear Aunt Mabel,

In an emergency could a PPL land an airliner?

This forum is called "Rumours & News",. there is another forum called Questions (http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&forumid=67) ]

If you are a PPL and you have difficulty finding the correct location to post your query then I don't give you much of a chance of landing an airliner.

YS

Non Normal

11th Sep 2005, 12:10

With the right training and if s/he was current on type.

:} :} :} Damn right too! Bahahahaha!!:E :E

emeritus

11th Sep 2005, 12:18

Aunt Mabel.......The only way to answer your question is to hire a simulator and try your LUCK.!

Gingerbread Man

11th Sep 2005, 14:10

This one was done to death on JetBlast. The answer seems to be a simple 'no'. Yes, I will agree that the basic flight controls do the same job in all fixed-wing aircraft (with the possible exception of a harrier), but consider the docile way in which an airliner will respond to your commands and then add to that the fact that the airliner will land faster than Vmax for most training aircraft. This makes the whole process a very delicate balancing act that ATPLs make their living from. Jet engines also have delayed reaction times, and will probably produce unexpected pitching moments if you are flying manually. I don't know personally, but i've heard that autopilot systems are not straight-forward pieces of kit to the uninitiated. Neither are the radios.

All things considered, it's a nice idea and one that i've thought of many times, but probably a bit beyond us PPLs in practice.

Ginger ;)

Send Clowns

11th Sep 2005, 17:14

No, but an autopilot can :}

fly mayday airlines

11th Sep 2005, 17:27

Nothing wrong with the question,who hasen't wondered if they could land an airliner.The problem is the answer. Dear auntie go and hire a simulator at gatwick or luton for £250 for 20 mins and then you can tell us the answer.It's something i plan to do.

Final 3 Greens

11th Sep 2005, 20:01

Did it a few years ago. After about 10 hours, I could land the sim okay.

But....

- no weather
- no stress (you can't die)
- I had a world class instructor

... and it was a sim.

Even then, I wouldn't have liked to try for real, certainly not now.

Keef

11th Sep 2005, 20:14

I tried it once in a sim. The answer to the question is "No, but the crash might be a bit less disastrous than a non-pilot attempting the same thing."

I suspect (with tongue in cheek) that a 12 year old with a few hundred hours of time on MSFS might have a better chance.

Shaggy Sheep Driver

11th Sep 2005, 20:33

It's an aeroplane. You're a pilot. If you're pretty experienced (not a rookie), it should be possible (survivable, at the very least).

SSD

fly mayday airlines

11th Sep 2005, 21:19

On two different occassions two different B737 pilots have told me that if you can land the add on for flight sim PMDG 737NG then you would have no problem landing the real thing however ive also been told that the Airbus are more difficult to land.

QDMQDMQDM

11th Sep 2005, 21:28

Experienced PPL left seat, geeky kid flight-simmer in the right seat 'qualified on type'.

I reckon that combination would have a chance.

QDM

Flik Roll

11th Sep 2005, 23:50

I agree the geeky kid is a must, after all I wouldn't have a clue what half the buttons and switches were for!!

Aunt Mabel

11th Sep 2005, 23:59

http://www.airlinepictures.net/photopost/data/514/3145att01698.jpg

Spacefish

12th Sep 2005, 00:25

The answer is YES, you have a chance. That of course includes proper radio guidance. In a German tv show they have tried it once, letting a completely unexperienced woman and a quite experienced PPL try their luck in a simulator.
While the woman failed miserably, the PPL guy made it.

They didn't say which attempt that way though, kind of pretended it was the first, and of course a real emergency is by far more difficult. There won't be a sim instructor sitting at his radio 24/7 just waiting for the occasional PPL trying to land an airliner and needing guidance. ;)

But in such a real situation it couldn't hurt to try it nevertheless. A little chance is better than certain death of all people on board.
And it's not like you have to land within 5 minutes (usually).

shortandsmelly

12th Sep 2005, 02:27

Is it possible?

Short answer: no, with an 'if'. Long answer: yes, with a 'but'.

(been waiting ages to use that one! :p )

shortstripper

12th Sep 2005, 06:35

Aunt Mabel,

I always liked the bit in Apollo 13 where James Lovell's mother says, "If a fridge could fly, my Jimmy could land it!" (probably misquoted slightly) ........ But then he was a test pilot/astronaut, not a PPL :\

SS

incubus

12th Sep 2005, 08:15

As a geeky PPL with a few hundred hours of MSFS time, I'd say I'd be quietly confident of at least not killing everyone in the process.

I come to the flight deck with the advantages of knowing the principles of flying an aircraft, the idea of approach speeds and roundouts and a knowledge that the autopilot would be doing most of the actual flying. Depending on the airfield/kit, landing the aircraft would be a case of twiddling dials, smoothing the landing and stopping the thing from running off the end of the runway :)

Of course, this would require a pilot on the ground talking to me and providing the experience and knowledge on type. Without that link, anyone would be floundering.

Final 3 Greens

12th Sep 2005, 09:03

What you will discover is that sims (and airliners) are much more sensitive to Pitch and Power.

Couple this to higher inertia and you will "porpoise" very nicely the first few times and over correct like crazy.

The best analogy I can think of is steering a canal barge as opposed to a rowing boat.

You will also discover that flight management system automatics have a few traps for the unwary ;)

tonyhalsall

12th Sep 2005, 12:14

Poor Aunt Mabel,

Plucks up courage to ask a question and gets spit roasted in return.

I agree with SSD, if you are a pilot you ought to be able to make a survivable landing, it might be a case of familiarising yourself with the equipment in front of you and playing around a little before you got to finals - not to mention a great deal of RT support.

On a related vein I thought you all may be interested in a comment made to me by a Captain who regularly flies an Airbus and informed me that the auto flight system is used to such an extent these days that their Instrument Ratings are becoming technically invalid - but, over-riding the auto flight system to fly manually can land you in very hot water indeed.

Who'd want to 'fly' like that for a living??

Tony

Final 3 Greens

12th Sep 2005, 13:04

Tony agree with SSD, if you are a pilot you ought to be able to make a survivable landing, it might be a case of familiarising yourself with the equipment in front of you and playing around a little before you got to finals - not to mention a great deal of RT support. I would be intrigued to know on what basis of fact or opinion you make this assertion.

Say again s l o w l y

12th Sep 2005, 13:18

A 737 is not exactly a difficult aircraft to fly, but the pitch-power couple, followed by the sheer inertia of the thing means it takes a bit of practice.

First time for an inexperienced PPL, I don't think so somehow, but I'm sure they'd be able with guidance to get the autoland working and get it down safely.

Afterall, if I can manage it......!

dublinpilot

12th Sep 2005, 14:01

I suppose you'd really need to define "land" too.

I mean, do you mean pull off a reasonable landing, with no damage to aircraft and no injuries to passengers?

Or do you simply mean that the aircraft is repairable, and none of the passengers received serious injuries?

I would imagine that the second one would be a lot more achievable than the first one.

tonyhalsall

12th Sep 2005, 14:40

F 3 G

Aunt Mabel asked a hypothetical question and I gave my answer as a personal opinion based on principles of aerodynamics and why (and how) ALL aeroplanes fly (and glide).
If I killed myself doing it you could/would claim to be correct in your outrage that I should even suggest being able to achieve such a thing. But come on, lighten up, it was not a serious post and my reply was based on possible theory, not practice.
I still don't understand the outrage at Aunt mabels original post?
Tony

PS - As the post has become serious, I trust no one objects to me reminding you just how accurately airliners can be flown with just a tiny amount of flight training as was demonstrated on September 11th 4 years ago. I accept that landing was not on the agenda, but there was a degree of accuracy required to achieve their tragic result.

\'Land\' ????

I thought every landing was a good one if you walked away from the aircraft?

OK - you may get carried away from this one, but it would still \'land\'

Tony

Final 3 Greens

12th Sep 2005, 14:51

Tony

My post was not well worded, I was genuinely interested and wondered whether you were influenced by your bus friend

vancouv

12th Sep 2005, 16:25

I'm a PPL, and I've been in an A320 sim, and although I might have a better chance than a complete rookie, I think the chances of getting it down and stopping are remote.

The A320 didn't respond much like my PA28, and as for approach speeds, flap limiting speeds, airbrakes etc. - I wouldn't know where to start.

Maybe if the Captain was physically disabled but could answer my questions.....

Cat.S

12th Sep 2005, 17:08

Had some time in a commercial 737-200 sim and didn't find it too bad to land. If anything, I thought it was a bit more sensitive in pitch on the flare than the Warrior I'm used to, but I'll put that down to the trimming. It was also a thod in simulated poor weather, with turbulence and a nasty crosswind factored in, but still managed to get it down in one piece. The IMC training was a big help in getting lined up on the runway, but you certainly need to have read up on the speeds, throttle settings etc beforehand. Saying that, it's one thing flying a sim with an instructor next to you and something entirely different doing it for real with numerous terrified passengers (and yourself) on board!

ChrisVJ

13th Sep 2005, 03:15

Tried it on one of those 'fairground' simulators at Disney Quest. Failed miserably three times in a row. Still there was the slight problem that the pitch control was reversed so itworked more like a shoot em up computer game. Push to lower THE PICTURE. Why would anyone do that?

I sure would not like to takeoff with the controls reversed!

M14P

13th Sep 2005, 09:38

I've been watching this one with interest.
I am probably a little more qualified than most on the subject given that in addition to my light aircraft flying I also spend a fair amount of time with 'members of the public' in airline simulators.

I'm afraid to report (as has already been mentioned) that the likely answer is an emphatic 'No!'. The issue is not skill related but simply put, given the likely environment/condition that we are talking about any one tiny feature of the the aircraft systems might stump the would-be pilot.

The Helios crash highlighted this a little since it would appear that the student pilot/cabin crew made repeated distress calls but on a frequency that no-one could hear.

Additionally, reversion modes of auto pilots/autothrust might well cause high levels of workload that simply could not be overcome by a person without experience. I can think of at least two scenarios with the A320, one with the 777 and 747 where a relatively 'normal' AP/ATHR behaviour would flummox an untrained observer.

Basic flying skill is an issue, too. This is not because the airliners are difficult to fly but because they are differnent. The biggest issue I see is a shallowing of the approach below 200' leading to essentially a flypast/stall or an over flare (leading to a similarly unpleasant arrival).

You might not like it but the sad truth is airliners do not fly themselves, nor are they terribly easy to operate. I would, however, wholeheartedly recommend a visit to a simulator to see for yourself.

Tonyh - your Airbus mate is overstating things a little, I'm afraid. The instrument rating (no longer a separate test and therefore invalid on light types) is as much a cerebral and spatial excercise as it is physical.

regards

m

tom24

13th Sep 2005, 11:08

At the time I had 100 hours PPL.

Somebody gave me the chance to play in an A320 sim.

First attempt I landed it no problem on 26L at Gatwick. Second time with a 20 know crosswind - OK it wasn't smooth, but I didn't crash the thing! Third attempt was into Funchal - result as attempt no.2 into LGW! Fourth attempt was taking-off and rocketing under some bridge in Lisbon at 500kts!

OK it was only pitch, bank and throttle, but its not that difficult and I do appreciate the fact that in the real World its a slightly different ball game, but if you have the aptitude I shouldn’t see why, with a bit of help from ATC/pilots over the radio for arming spoilers etc, the average PPL couldn't save everybody on board?

Final 3 Greens

13th Sep 2005, 11:10

M14relatively 'normal' AP/ATHR behaviour would flummox an untrained observer. I got "trapped" by using VS mode (cant remember the actual name), without considering the ability of autothrust to deliver the appropriate power - result high altitude upset - not nice ;) (even in a sim)

Dimensional

13th Sep 2005, 14:32

What would be the chances, though, of your "average" PPL, provided they managed to get a VHF-COM box working on the right frequency, of someone working their way through setting the aircraft up for a 'Cat IIIb'-style autoland?

For example, if our budding hero managed to wrestle the aircraft away from imminent peril, got a radio working and lo, there's a captain of the same type available on 121.5 ... would they stand a chance at programming the FMS in such a way that the aircraft could fly itself to a reasonable (read: survivable) landing? Rather than letting John. Q. Frustrated-PPL loose with however many tons of screaming metal...

Bear in mind I've no real knowledge of AFCS-type stuff, especially when fitted to heavy metal...

-D

Aunt Mabel

13th Sep 2005, 20:48

Think I'll get myself on to a sim just in case. I fancy myself in the role of budding hero! I've only got 10 hours in my log book and am about to solo a C152 so suppose I shouldn't walk before I can crawl:)

Deano777

13th Sep 2005, 21:15

I flew a BA 777 simulator at Cranebank a few yrs ago, I did several approaches, I greased nearly all of them (probably luck) the instructor couldn't really believe it, I tried a landing at JFK (not sure which rwy etc) following the "running rabbits" in the curve and landed wonderfully well as well, I'd like to think that if I was on a plane to or from holiday and the pilots were incapacitated that I'd be able to land the plane, I'd certainly stick up my hand without hesitation, it's got to be better than a cabin full of people shrugging their shoulders with a quizzed look on their faces

holyflyer

14th Sep 2005, 09:14

Some years ago, before I got my PPL, I had an hour in the 747-400 simulator at Cranebank. It was what convinced me to do the PPL.

We had a lengthy brief prior to going on board and firing the sim up. The Instructor then set me up on a 15 mile curved approach to one of the runways at JFK. He talked me through it but his hands remained clear of the controls at all times. His only proviso was that if it looked unsafe he would take control (it taking a considerable time to reboot the sim if I "crashed" it). Coming out of the curved approach onto the glideslope near the outer marker he asked me how it looked - I said "it looks about right". He said "looks good to me - go for it." Amazingly I greased it on and brought it to a full stop, much to the amazement of the instructor. We taxied the big beasty round straight into a rolling take-off, followed by circuits and bumps. The instructor did clean things up for me after each take-off, but then on downwind he talked me through the landing set up. Each time greased on, though the final landing to stop was a floater landing long but stopped well short of the end. The Instructor then did a 10 minute guided tour of the New York skyline at 500' - impressive, followed by a short-field landing. By the end of the hour I was a complete wet rag, dripping in sweat and the high level of concentration beginning to tell. In the debrief the instructor did ask me whether I had ever given thought to becoming a pilot - well the rest is history as they say.

In the real world with crew incapacitated I personally would rather have a PPL have a go at the landing than no one at all. I think it probably raises chances of survivability to about 50/50.

The real difficiency of the sim-experience is that the instructor sets things up for you - usually a take-off or landing. It might be an interesting scenario to take over a sim on auto-pilot in the cruise and try to bring it to land with instructions only.

LowNSlow

14th Sep 2005, 09:45

I have convincingly crashed MS's version of the 737 many times. There again I've managed to land the Combat Flight sim Lanc OK. Must be a taildragger thing.. ;)

Send Clowns

14th Sep 2005, 10:55

I would qualify my "no" with something that will also explain it. I would say unless there was a very large, flat area (such as East Anglia!), and the pilot was a good student, there being only one chance, in communication with the outside world. An IR would help.

The reason I say this is that to land on a runway you must hit it in the first bit. This is a trick of firstly setting up a very stable approach, with precise speed / power / descent angle (hence the helpful IR, you do this for an easy ILS on any type). This is adjusted as required on the approach, and then ends with throttles closed and the nose raised slightly - usually about 2 degrees. This is not like a light aircraft!

If the speed is too high or the throttles closed too late then the aircraft will float. If the nose is pitched up too much the aircraft will float or even baloon. These cases will have the aircraft land very long. If the aircraft comes below glideslope it can be difficult to recover, especially with high engine wind-up times. If the speed is low impact is high, although that might not be a disaster.

Keeping the centreline is also very difficult, as the aircraft is not even as responsive as a C-172 (a lazy lump of an aircraft to handle if ever I flew one).

GonTek

14th Sep 2005, 20:54

i have read the comments on this thread with great interest.
I too have a ppl with few hours compared to some, and flew the sim near Leeds and landed no problem from a straight in and ILS approaches. It is pretty obvious from the comments that many contributors are proffesional pilots and I do not envy you in any way as I am fully aware of the training you have gone through and can only take my hat off to you all.

Ladies and gentlemen,ponder this question.

Would any airport let you attempt to land a 70 odd ton potential fireball ?....

Deano777

14th Sep 2005, 23:54

Yes

Because it's better you tried to land at an airport rather than run out of fuel at altitude, alternatively they could always direct you over the water and shoot you down :E :\ :\

Tarnished

15th Sep 2005, 01:42

Great thread, and great question Gontek, must remember to come back tomorrow when I'm at work to throw in my two pennies worth!

But as a taster, 2500 hrs fighter time got to have a go in the ETPS 1-11 as a precursor to tp training. Couldn't believe the effects of inertia. Now't happened. You get the roundout a bit early and your off to the races and off the side of the runway.

All these sim experiences are all well and good but, when there is real terra firma approaching and real Dunlops about to impact it is a very very different story to flying Mr Gate's imagination into the pixel-dense environment,

More tomorrow.

Tarnished

RobboJon

15th Sep 2005, 13:16

Names and places changed to protect the guilty.

With around 100 hours on my PPL (with IMC) and a gliding silver C and - importantly some rotary wing time (where over-control kills you quickest) - I had the opportunity to sit right seat on an empty repositining flight in a bizjet in the Falcon 900/Gulfstream GV category. Just followed the flight director and took it down to 200' on the approach. Left seat said I had it set up nicely and could easily have landed it. Best fun you can have with your clothes on!

This a/c had a small fraction of the inertia of a 100 seat+ airliner, the flight plan was fully loaded into the fmc and I was not under any pressure, plus I had an instructor in the left seat doing all the work of configuring the a/c and talking to the ground.

My guess is that if everything was nicely set up and peace and calmness prevailed and the ppl had luck on his/her side and never deviated by more than a few feet from the ideal profile, then it might be a survivable touchdown - even if the roll-out killed all on board. How many of those factors are going to be in your favour when you have to step up to land a 737 with an incapacitated crew. You've already run out of luck before you sit down!

Interesting point about landing at the airfield. I wonder if you might be informed by ATC that the highest chance of survival would come from ditching just offshore - on the same principal that we are told that the safest thing to do following SEP engine failure at night is to head for the dark bits - your chance of survival virtually nil but at least you don't embarrass the CAA by killing people on the ground!

Good luck Aunty Mabel - but I hope you will understand I don't want anyone I know to be in the back when you get your shot at glory!