Are FAA qualified PPL only allowed to fly US reg a/c?

[fly mayday airlines]

Are FAA qualified Pilots only allowed to fly US registered aircraft in the UK and if so why? It seems pretty strange can someone please explain.:confused:

[Chilli Monster]

No - they're not.

They can fly 'G' reg aircraft VFR only, both in the UK and, because the CAA automatically validates an FAA licence without any paperwork, anywhere else in the world.

[Easy226]

Out of interest, is this the same as with a CPL?

Many Thanks

Dan

[Chilli Monster]

Providing the FAA Commercial (I take it that's what you are referring to) has class rating privileges for the type of aircraft being flown then yes - but not for hire or reward, private only.

To explain further. I have an FAA Commercial/instrument but it's multi engined only. If I want to fly singles then it has to be using my UK licence - not my US one.

[Keef]

Hey CM, how did you get to be Multi only? I thought you had the full set of FAA CPL/IR? So you fly in the UK on CAA PPL/IMC?

[Chilli Monster]

I've got an FAA Private single engine issued on the basis of my UK licence, so I've got to keep my UK licence in date for that, and while I'm at it I keep the IMC current too.

When I did the Commercial I did all my time in a twin - so my Commercial is multi only, never did my Commercial single engine.

I've got instrument privileges on both :)

[fly mayday airlines]

So is it seems then that if i had a FAA PPL i can rent club aircraft and fly them in the UK . Would i be able to fly them at night as well?
If i had a FAA PPL could i add the UK IMC or would i have to get the FAA IR to fly in IMC conditions?

[BEagle]

"So is it seems then that if i had a FAA PPL i can rent club aircraft and fly them in the UK."

Assuming you pass the Club check-out, then yes.

"Would i be able to fly them at night as well?"

No.

"If i had a FAA PPL could i add the UK IMC...."

No.

"...or would i have to get the FAA IR to fly in IMC conditions?"

Only in a N-reg aeroplane which you co-own. You wouldn't be able to hire a N-reg in the UK. Rules for private or group-owned non-commercial air transport N-reg aircraft may well change soon which could prevent this.

You would only be able to exercise ICAO FAA PPL privileges on a G-reg a/c under Day VFR conditions within UK airspace.

[IO540]

Beagle

You wouldn't be able to hire a N-reg in the UK

Do you have a reference for the above?

It's Aerial Work (i.e. what one actually does in/with the aircraft) that needs Secy of State permission, and that permission is available only for training, and even then only under limited circumstances as detailed on the DfT website.

[BEagle]

I could well be wrong - but I suspect that the N-reg loophole for long term UK-based non-commercial aircraft will soon be closed, so this is probably a moot point. Particularly if current work to bring the JAR-FCL IR closer to the ICAO requirements and make it more generally achievable bear fruit.

[fly mayday airlines]

Thanks Beagle, you popped my head out of the cloud with your answers.
Why is it that FAA PPL's cant fly IFR in a UK reg aircraft,are the IFR instruments different?

[Keef]

It's a can of worms, best left with the lid on.

I can fly IFR anywhere in the civilised world if the aeroplane has the magic letter N on the side, but only in Class D and below in the UK if it doesn't.

The reason is legal and bureaucratic, but there is fierce support for that reason in many quarters.

[Flyin'Dutch']

To the question:

"Would i be able to fly them at night as well?"

Beagle wrote:
No

An FAA license does not require an add on Night Rating*.

So it is my understanding that with this license one can fly at night as well.

Anyone know different?

(* excluding license given out in Alaska I believe)

[BEagle]

All night flying in the UK is IFR.

Unless your licence includes a Rating which includes IFR privileges, you may not fly under IFR irrespective of whether it is day or night.

This whole FAA and N-reg thing is a load of trouble. The DfT are obviously taking a hard look at it; why, for example, is there any reason why a long term UK-based private aircraft should not be required to be registered and regulated under CAA requirements.

If you import a car into the UK, you have to meet construction and use regulations, SVA etc AND have it re-registered. So why should UK-based aeroplanes be any different?

The N-reg situation in the UK is seen as a way of being able to use a cheaper-to-acquire IR lawfully. But if the somewhat OTT JAR-FCL IR requirements are simplified down to ICAO minimum requirements, that perceived N-reg advantage would disappear.

[IO540]

fly mayday airlines

The main reason is protectionism. The flying schools in various countries lobby hard to protect their business. This is why you can't use an FAA IR in a G-reg plane (well you can use it in Class G in the UK but that's not terribly useful; you could do an ILS into say Biggin but not say Bournemouth) but in an N-reg you get worldwide IFR privileges because of the ICAO treaty and nobody can do anything about that because it would kill the airline transport system.

Keef

I think you meant "only in Class G". The FAA IR does not give you IFR privileges in Class D in a G-reg. You may have been referring to the UK PPL with an IMC Rating, which gives you IFR up to and including Class D, UK only (and which incidentally is valid for any reg plane whose state of registry agrees).

Beagle

This one has been done to death elsewhere, but the car argument really doesn't hold water. Cars need to re-reg otherwise the driver could drive through speed cameras, park illegally, etc, with impunity. C&U is applicable EU-wide so this is irrelevant. Whereas with aviation, cross-border enforcement is strict (as any Brit pilot busting one of the French TRAs has discovered) and each national CAA is obliged to pursue/prosecute foreign airspace infringements reported by another ICAO state.

I don't mean this to you personally of course, but the car comparison is traditionally used when presenting the aviation argument to people who know nothing about aviation and who respond to emotional nonsense.

The #1 reason people operate under foreign regs, particularly N, is that the Euro IR has been shafted to suit would-be airline pilots; principally, young unemployed men with no money and plenty of time, desperately hoping for a First Officer job on a starting pay of about £20k (£18k if e.g. night cargo). Most private pilots who fly IFR are aircraft owners (one practically has to be an owner to get an aircraft suitable for IFR, and with the level of access), do 100+ hours/year, so have to be high earners so have a business or similar, not in their 20s so have a family, etc, and can't blow away a couple of years of their life on the JAA IR ground school.

The #2 reason for N reg is certification of various components and occassionally whole airframes.

Contrary to what most people think, there is little or no saving on maintenance.

If JAA, now EASA, stop allowing each delegate from each member state to grind an axe on behalf of his domestic cartels, and sorted out the IR, or accepted the FAA IR for CAS, and accepted FAA certification, most foreign reg planes would revert to national regs.

BTW, the CAA is now finished. They just pass bits of paper across, and do the occassional enforcement. EASA is doing certification, and will soon be doing FCL.

[BEagle]

I was referring to personal vehicle imports from the US, not the EU!

To facilitate the DfT’s obvious desire to end anything other than temporary acceptance of UK-based non-CAT aircraft with N-registrations, EASA need to do 2 things:

1. Require the introduction of an ICAO-level IR rather than an IR used principally as a final handling test for airline wannabes.

2. Simplify approval of aircraft and any associated modifications.

[slim_slag]

Why is it that FAA PPL's cant fly IFR in a UK reg aircraft,are the IFR instruments different?

Believe it or not, yes!

If you import a car into the UK, you have to meet construction and use regulations, SVA etc AND have it re-registered. So why should UK-based aeroplanes be any different?

They shouldn't. But to use another car analogy: A 1949 treaty lets me drive a UK registered car using a US issued driving licence in day, night, rain or fog. If it was that simple I'd be able to fly a UK registered plane on a US issued IR pilots licence at night, in fog and in rain. Using logic to explain the situation doesn't work.

[Julian]

Beagle

Only in a N-reg aeroplane which you co-own. You wouldn't be able to hire a N-reg in the UK. Rules for private or group-owned non-commercial air transport N-reg aircraft may well change soon which could prevent this.

Since when has this been the case? I know at least one club that hires out N reg aircraft. Would be very interested to know your source for this.


"If i had a FAA PPL could i add the UK IMC...."

No but worth stating that if you have a JAA PPL and you take the FAA IR you can then add the IMC to your JAA licence for just the £64 CAA fee. You dont have to sit any exams or take a flight test.

Julian.

[BEagle]

As I said, I may well be wrong on this.

Even so, N-reg hire is not generally very common.

I don't think that the original questioner intends to obtain a JAA licence; rather the query was about FAA PPL privileges in the UK.

[Flyin'Dutch']

BEagle,

Although all flying at night comes under IFR flying one does not require an IR for it.

Outside CAS one can fly IFR without an IR/IMC and inside CAS one flies, at night, on a SVFR Clearance.

[rustle]

FD we have had this before on here, and IIRC it is the FAA's own rules which preclude FAA-PPLs (without an IR) flying at night in the UK due to the IFR requirement at night here. If I can find one of the many threads where this was discussed I'll post the link ;)

SVFR would be okay, but you won't get far before you're into F or G and therefore required to be under IFR. Maybe a few circuits at an airfield inside D or higher ;)

[IO540]

FWIW I have it in writing from the CAA that as far as they are concerned the IMCR is valid in any reg plane, and I have it in writing from the FAA that the IMCR is considered "equivalent to the FAA IR".

The latter just means that the IMCR is valid in an N-reg, within its own ANO limitations i.e. UK only, Class D and below, just like it would be in a G.

So night flight in an N-reg is OK with an IMCR (and a UK PPL of course, with the NQ). Though I agree not with an FAA PPL alone*.

The above is marginally relevant but useful to someone who has put the plane on N, has a UK PPL+IMCR, but has not yet got the FAA IR.

* Don't have time to wade through the ANO right now, but a good question is whether the right to fly IFR in VMC (unique to the UK) is granted to a CAA PPL, or is a general VFR (PPL) right within UK airspace. If the latter, then an FAA PPL could fly a G-reg at night, VMC.

Beagle - The US import car isn't relevant either because cars don't travel cross-country like planes routinely do. One could make a case for comparing planes with the TV Licence.

If I wanted to continually evade speed camera tickets, I would just change the (foreign reg) car every few months. Just like one will always be able to do with an aircraft, come to think of it; just gets expensive. Under ICAO, they can't stop visitation. The whole proposal is barmy.