Renewable fuel for Airplanes

[philip2004uk]

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn4813
This is good is it not?

[Yak97]

So how many acres (hectares, whatever) would it take to produce enough bio-fuel to get a 747 across the pond then?

Perhaps it could be grown an the green bits between the runways??

[philip2004uk]

I take it no-ones bothered about pollution wheras i am.

[A-FLOOR]

I remember reading somewhere it takes way over 100% of all the world's arable land to produce enough of the stuff to completely replace crude oil as a fuel.

When you think about it's just different form of solar power (combustion vs. photosynthesis)

[philip2004uk]

Do you think it'll work.

[A-FLOOR]

Oh it'll work alright... just not as a global replacement.

[philip2004uk]

well hopefully aviation will stay as i love flying light aircraft.:O

[A-FLOOR]

Of course aviation will stay... we didn't invent it for nothing! :}

One thing to consider when you talk about light aviation and bio-fuels is the return of the diesel engine. Get yourself a brand-new DA-42, DA-40 or C-172 with TDI engines and tweak the fuel system so it can run on the stuff. Way easier than modifying an existing petrol engine with spark plugs and what not :ok:

[philip2004uk]

Great thanks, now i just need to get my PPL hehehe

[ETOPS773]

Also remember that Fuel Cell GA Aircraft are viable - NASA report here:

Just a case of the technology maturing NASA Report here! (http://www-psao.grc.nasa.gov/Library/Abstracts/berton17.html)

Bio fuel can also be made from chip shop oil left overs (I tried it)

[A-FLOOR]

A colleague of mine test-flew a Reims C-172 running on gas (the LPG one).

It had the rear seats removed and a nice cyllindrical LPG tank similar to the one in an gas-powered car was installed in their place.

The only problem was they had to physically remove the tank from the plane and take it to the nearest LPG petrol station for a fillup... which in a nutshell is the biggest problem facing any replacement fuel. Getting airports to build the infrastructure and stock the stuff.

[philip2004uk]

Thanks guys, oh yeah then this would also mean cars will be like this now i can think about going to america and buying a real car and not worry about the fuel.(i know i have to wait for it to become available offcourse but hey in a few years then)

[16 blades]

Most existing turboprop engines can already run on petroleum diesel in extremis - there is not a great deal of difference, in terms of weight, volatility, and energy content, between AVTUR / JET A-1 and diesel. AVTUR is just much, much more refined, having most of the heavier, waxier fractions removed from it to keep an acceptable freezing point for aviation use. I'm not sure whether this would apply to turbofan engines, but I don't see why it couldn't in principle - obviously some engine modifications would be needed, but if it works in one kind of gas turbine, why not another?

I'm not yet convinced about the viability of biodiesel - there is an awful lot of waste in it's production, and it is a much less efficiently-burning fuel than modern petroleum diesel. Overall I'd have to say it's supposed environmental benefits are questionable.

And who the hell wants their car smelling like a chippy?

16B

[G-CPTN]

30 years ago I was involved in testing multi-fuel engines for the MOD for vehicular use. These were 'standard' truck diesel engines that had modified injection pump settings to run on AVTUR. After considerable successful testing, the MOD decided that diesel was easier to find in quantity in global backwaters than AVTUR, so their vehicles reverted to 'pure' diesel.

[J.A.F.O.]

16 blades

I wouldn't mind my aircraft smelling like a Chippy, though.

[LowNSlow]

My brother did a lot of research into alternative fuels and patented running diesel engines on algae which he demonstrated on Tomorrows World (remember that). When doing his stuff he calculated that to supply Britain's electrical needs alone (forget fuel for vehicles etc) from Rape Seed oil we would have to have an area 1.5 times the size of the UK planted with Rape Seed. Not really a practical solution methinks.

[4SPOOLED]

best source of energy will be water....

but as an interim i would be investing money in extraction of frozen methane from the sea floor.....under pressure it freezes and there is literally enough stock for everyone of the gas in a solid/frozen state all over the floor of the worlds oceans.

Dont know the logistics of running a turbine on it though

[LowNSlow]

4SPOOLED and I thought crude oil, petroleum, LPG and LNG had storage problems. High pressure frozen methane would be a load of laughs.

PS What happens to the sea when all the methane is extracted from it?

[Yorks.ppl]

PS What happens to the sea when all the methane is extracted from it?

Its level would obligingly drop, which would counteract rising sea levels caused by current global warming. How neat.

I knew I didn't need to worry.

[Nerik]

Hydrogen is tomorrow's fuel.

[A-FLOOR]

Of course... but I have a feeling we need something to make it through the night ;)

[4SPOOLED]

Hydrogen would be a good source, in AUS we have buses in the public transport system running on the stuff now, and there is plenty of water to extract it from.....

There was also a water powered car getting around over here which made the news a while back, after making front page of the paper, the story quickly disapeared, and the owner went from working class suberbia to a nice house in the million dollar row.....never sold a single unit..

Got to love the cartels hey!!

[barit1]

Hydrogen is tomorrow's fuel.

But H2 is a synthetic fuel - You don't just drill for it. If you could suck the C out of CH4, you'd be a multi-billionaire.

Fantastic BTUs/Lb. with H2 but storage is a big issue.

35+ years ago I worked on a CODAG ship - diesels for cruise, big gas turbine for dash. Everything ran on JP-5 (similar to Jet-A). The concept had a lot of problems, but fuel wasn't one of them.

[Send Clowns]

To make hydrogen from water requires more energy than burning the hydrogen produces. It causes more environmental damage overall than burning fossil fuel, unless the process is powered by renewabe electricity. It is not a solution until fusion power becomes viable.

[Algy]

Yes, serious doubts about hydrogen. And not just me:


http://www.bizbuzzmedia.com/blogs/flight_international/archive/2005/09/02/359.aspx

[ETOPS773]

The doubts about a hydrogen economy are valid - for now.

The ITER and nuclear fusion research / test is on the way and if its developed to become self sustaining (produces more energy than makes it work) then a hydrogen economy is viable.

Alot has happened in the last 100 years and I think 2nd / 3rd generation ITER technology will be with us before end of the century. All very clever and promising stuff on the horizon folks..