Training fixes

[Romeo Romeo]

I never really thought about this before one of the instructors down at the airfield mentioned it in a newsletter. The chaps and chapesses who come up with the RT phrasiology have played a bit of a blinder on this one. Next time you're 'temporarily uncertain of your position', pop it onto Virgin 121.5 and ask the nice people in London Centre (or Scottish Centre if you're really lost :D) for a 'Training Fix' and they'll tell you where you are.

Everyone else will think you're doing a bit of training and there's no need to admit you're lost!

[DubTrub]

Why just not admit you're lost, if you are?

I do several "training fixes" in awkward places, but I am sure to tell them my position, just in case they think I'm trying to pull a fast one, which could impinge upon someone's real PAN or MAYDAY call. Remember, the training is for both parties.

[Whirlybird]

Why don't you want to admit you're lost? There's no shame in it; we all get lost sometime or another. And you'd feel a bit stupid if they couldn't give you your 'training fix' as there was a real emergency going on, and THEN you had to admit that you were lost. :(

[Romeo Romeo]

I think there are degrees of 'lostness', ranging from 'I knew where I was a couple of minutes ago' to 'I haven't got a clue'! I think it's useful to get in touch with someone in the early stages of lostness rater than carrying on and hoping it'll all work itself out. Anything that encourages people to ask earlier has to be a good thing - even if it's just for confirmation.

Just as a matter of interest, how many people here have been a bit lost, and how many of those have admitted it on air to D+D? I've never got in touch with D+D but I wouldn't say I've never been a little bit uncertain where I was? Has anyone here admitted to being lost to D+D?

Now, I'd get in touch and admit it! However in my early flying days, I think this advice would have come in very useful. It's only now that I am more experienced have I got the confidence to ask for assistance if I need it.

[IO540]

Why not do the really smart thing, and spend a few hours' flying money on a decent GPS.

[Romeo Romeo]

I couldn't agree more! There's nothing that improved my enjoyment of flying more than my Garmin Pilot III. However, for that PPL student on a qualifying cross-country, a 'Training Fix' can be quite a useful trick to have in the bag.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Horse****.

Don't you dare go onto 121.5 asking for a training fix if you are in fact lost. Its dishonest and deceitful. It blocks the frequency for genuine emergencies and it makes hundreds of airliners withing 200nm turn down their monitoring of the 121.5 freq.

If I were your examiner or instructor I'd fail you as a result of your deceit AND let me tell you that I used to call London Centre on the telephone whilst my students were on short final after QXCountry of solo navex. They will tell you in the blink of an eye if your students aircraft has either used 121.5 OR is suspected of having been in airspace it shouldn't have.

Just don't do it.

I'd have all the respect in the world for a student who came in for debrief you said "actually I called 121.5 for being Lost then proceeded to destination". He'd pass and be commended.

If the student claimed he had no problems when I already knew he's used 121.5 or had bust some airspace then he'd be chopped, bollocked and made to refly the exercise.

Cheers

WWW

[IO540]

Well obviously a student on a QXC should not be using a GPS - that's cheating.

In fact the mere mention of the possibility of thinking of getting a GPS within the earshot of an instructor, prior to getting one's PPL, is a very bad thing to do because he's likely to regard you as a bit of a smart ***e and will be watching you extra carefully.

However, a QXC is usually a well worn and easy route, done on perfect days, not requiring any accurate nav to avoid a CAS bust (because that would reflect on the instructor) and one has to do it only once per life :O

If I was lost, I would do a fix with two VORs. Just tune in each one, turn the knob until the bar is centred with the FROM flag showing, read off the radial off the top of the dial, and repeat for the 2nd one. Then draw the two lines on the map and see where they cross. Takes a lot less time than calling somebody on the radio, and every PPL should know how to do this (and how to track a VOR). It's REALLY EASY. Even easier with a DME :O

[Paris Dakar]

..........he was really into his rallying (cars), and as he was too young to drive, he had to make do with playing with the maps whilst occupying the lefthand seat. I used to think that there was nothing worse than being in a rally car, on a rally and not knowing quite exactly where you were. I used to think to myself 'I'll wait til the next corner, or the one after that and I'm sure I'll be able to find out exactly where I've gone wrong'.

Well, there is something more worrying than being in that car, and it's being in an aircraft and not knowing where you are. Don't 'wait til the next corner' get on the radio and ask for assistance.

I've said in a previous thread and I'll say it agin here - the folk at D&D do a brilliant job (I visited West Drayton a while back and would recommend it to anyone - no matter how much experience you have) and will get you on your way as quickly as possible. Their concern is that you (and others who may be close by you) are safe - they do not pass judgement as to why you may have got yourself into the situation, your well being is prime!

PD

[bcfc]

An ex-member of our group told me that on his QXC, he became unsure of position somewhere between Bristol and Exeter, so seeing a farmer in a field, landed. He trotted over, asked where he was (farmer more than happy to help, apparently) and took off again.

Didn't occur to him that a rut in the field may take the nose wheel off or all the other risks involved. Gives him cold sweats these days.

The impetuosity of youth, I suppose

[ShyTorque]

"Don't you dare go onto 121.5 asking for a training fix if you are in fact lost. Its dishonest and deceitful. It blocks the frequency for genuine emergencies and it makes hundreds of airliners withing 200nm turn down their monitoring of the 121.5 freq."

WWW,

For once I can't agree with your sentiment. Although it might not be strictly kosher, it's far better for someone on to call early on 121.5 if uncertain of position. If it's NOT already a "genuine emergency", it has the potential to turn into one very soon!

A timely call might well prevent an inexperienced pilot suffering an airspace bust, or an AIRPROX.

The training fix is actually for D&D's benefit too, of course. :D

The only problem is that a refused TF may require the pilot to go back on the radio "cap in hand" and admit he IS now not "Training" after all... ;)

What say D&D?

BTW, If I get a bit lost I drop down to 50 feet and read the road signs :E

[Say again s l o w l y]

I definately have to agree with WWW on this one. If you are lost, then tell someone and get out of it. We've all had times when we were 'temporarily unsure of our position.'
Just admit it and use the service as it was designed for.

Do you think making false 999 calls is acceptable too? :mad:

[dublinpilot]

Do you think making false 999 calls is acceptable too?

As I understand it D&D both invite and welcome training calls.

The 999 service does not.

Therefore it's not fair to compare the two. Apples & Oranges come to mind.

I agree with Sky Torque. Best to own up and admit your problem. But if using the word training in the call, makes some people make the call, where they otherwise wouldn't, then it's better than them not making the call at all.

dp

[Say again s l o w l y]

A training call is just that, pretending that you aren't lost when you are is about as unprofessional as you can get.

If people can't admit that they are lost because of their ego's, then I'd rather thay weren't sitting in the cockpit of an a/c. Ego kills more people in flying than anything else.

No-one is going to slap your legs if you get lost and to be honest with the general standard of navigation skills in PPL-land I'm amazed D and D aren't snowed under continually.

Use the system corrrectly or fill your a/c with GPS's so you always have a backup rather than relying on hoodwinking an excellent system. Failing that, learn how to navigate properly in the first place and then keep it up.

If you are genuinely lost, then D&D can offer you all sorts of help that you may not realise you need. If you pretend that you are training, then this help won't be as forthcoming.
Again, use it correctly, or don't use it at all.

If I caught any of my students or members playing this game, they'd get a kicking of monumental proportions.

[Final 3 Greens]

The problem on here is that some people insist on making everything so black and white.

We have WWW and SAS bollocking students for deceit and comparisons with false calls to 999, which is plainly illogical, since they are a criminal offence whereas failing to be aware of one's position as a PIC and seeking help is plainly not.

Yes, if you are lost, call D&D immediately, state the situation and ask for assistance.

If you are not lost, you won't need to.

But what about that uncertain feeling that low hour PPLs sometimes get, sure they planned the flight meticulously and are maintaining a solid VFR flight log, BUT maybe the weather is a little different to plan and that affects the view out of the window and makes it harder to triangulate the position. OR the winds aloft are stronger/weaker than forecast and the drift correction angle "feels wrong?"

Strictly speaking, the pilot is not lost, but there is some concern creeping into the edge of consciousness, starting to affect his/her ability to manage the workload.

Under those circumstances, a training fix is completely appropriate and sensible, because (a) it is providing training for D&D, (b) it is providing training for the PPL in consolidating his/her position under more challenging circumstances and (c) it may well avoid a more dangerous situation such as a CAS bust

WWW and SAS, you should reflect seriously on the merits of your postings and the impact on the low houred PPLs who read these threads and are influenced by such postings.

For the record, in 1996 with the princely total of 115 hrs, I found myself in a situation where I was starting to become concerned about position, due to the masking effect of wx and also a seriously stronger wind aloft. By taking a training fix over ground without many features, I was able to re-orient myself, safeguard against busting the Stansted zone and navigate safely back home. Whirly, had D&D declined the training fix, I would have escalated to an emergency, since the unavailability of the training fix would have made the situation more serious.

Now if you wish to argue with me about my decision, feel free to, but I called D&D afterwards, explained what happened, thanked them and was told that it was a completely appropriate use of the service.

[Evil J]

Why not ask the agency you are already talking to to help, assuming they are appropriatly equipped-as a radar controller it is unbelievably easy to find someone who is lost, and assuming you arent a million miles away takes about 5 seconds if you have a transponder, maybe 20 secs if you dont. paperwork will not be filled in if you ask for help, no one is going to ring the CAA and tell them you had to ask for help; and as already stated above it`s not illegal to get lost-busting CAS though is illegal - so ask for help early if at all unsure.

(apologies for spelling,it is early!)

[Final 3 Greens]

EvilJ

A good suggestion and such a pity that we do not have full LARS coverage for the UK.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Horse****.

If you don't KNOW where you are then you are LOST. Its not tricky, difficult or hard to understand.

What you emphatically are not is in need of is a Training Fix.

A Training Fix is what I the instructor ask for in the process of teaching you the student how to contact 121.5 in accordance with the the LOST procedure. You are not entitled to use it. Or in this case abuse it.

D&D can and do have a different repsonse to a Training Fix call and a Lost call.

The information given by them to a Training Fix call tends to be of a less detailed nature particularly if they are busy. They possibly won't add in extras such as 'beware of controlled airspace 3 miles to you 2 o' clock'. They may not ask about endurance or other things and will assume an instructor is on board.

You are also skewing the statistics of D&D calls.

D&D has to justify its expense and if a significant chunk of its workload is falsely thought to be training and not actual help work then this weakens the funding arguments for D&D.

Plus I have to monitor 121.5 every working day. I have no problem with the r/t calls I might miss or have to be repeated because someone in their Piper is suddenly lost. I have a big moral problem though if they are asking for a training fix, being denied, then asking for real.

Occupying 121.5 is a serious business there are THOUSANDS of ears on that frequency at the same time as being on the frequency controlling them.

I'd make it an offence for anyone without an FI Rating to ask for a training fix. In fact I am writing to the CAA SRG today to ask for that to become a UK rule.

There is NO harm in using 121.5 if you are lost and there never has been and nobody cares least of all the CAA. Every PPL should be taught that.

Mind you though that VFR nav is supposed to be just that. Its no good only being safe IF you can use the navaids and 121.5 because I've had total electrical failure 3 times in 1500hrs of light aircraft flying. Twice through failed Alternators and one through electrical smoke and having to turn everything off.

Its mk1 Eyeball, the map and some confidence in what you are doing that will save your life in that situation.

Not cheaty weasley tricks and lies.

Cheers

WWW

[dublinpilot]

Or a battery powered GPS???:8

I can appreciate where you are coming from WWW (although your language doesn't help your argument).

But I'm afraid we will have to differ.

While I agree completely that we should always admit to our problems, the simple reality is that some people won't. If using the word training makes them more likely to ask for help in time, then so be it. It's better than them not asking for help.

This is not just a GA problem. There have been examples of commercial airlines running out of fuel, yet refusing to declare a mayday. One in NY comes to mind, but I have read about others.

I'd be interested to see the reply you get from the CAA. Any chance you'd publish it here, along with the letter you are sending them?

dp

[Evil J]

The other prblem with WWW's suggestion would mean that people couldnt practise using D&D post qualification - I seem to rememeber some material coming from D and D a while back asking for people to call them for their own training. I'm sure they are quite capable of telling people to bog off if they are busy with real emergencies.

I do agree though that if you are lost you shouldn't use a training fix; but human nature is what it is.

[Gerhardt]

WWW, I certainly understand your points and respectfully disagree with them. However, I think you'd convince more people if you toned down your demeanor and language. Gentle encouragement I believe is the term. It's fine to be firm in your beliefs but also show respect for others with differing opinions.

When I first began flying there were times I had a rough idea where I was but was not absolutely certain. I don't think it's wrong for someone in that situation to ask for a training fix. It does no one any harm. And every airliner within 200 nm will not turn off 121.5. As pilots build up their XC time they'll become more comfortable in knowing where they are and this won't be an issue for them.

My instructor had no problem with me carring a handheld GPS but he did ask that I not use it unless I was absolutely lost (until I got my PPL). i.e. use it as a last resort. I'm surprised that more instructors don't show their students how to use them and even encourage them to carry one as a backup. Personally, I use mine as primary nav and use VORs as backup, writing down my position every 10-15 minutes.

[BillieBob]

A Training Fix is what I the instructor ask for in the process of teaching you the student how to contact 121.5 in accordance with the the LOST procedure. You are not entitled to use it. Or in this case abuse it. What a pompous, arrogant and thoroughly incorrect statement! CAP413 states: Pilots who do not wish to carry out a practice emergency but only wish to confirm their position may request a ‘Training Fix’ on 121.5 MHz. This ‘Training Fix’ is secondary in importance to actual emergency calls but takes precedence over practice emergency calls in the event of simultaneous incidents. Any pilot is entitled to ask for a Training Fix, instructor, student or otherwise. If such calls disturb WWW's quiet snooze in the driving cab of his airborne omnibus - tough!

[Maxflyer]

www said

A Training Fix is what I the instructor ask for in the process of teaching you the student how to contact 121.5 in accordance with the the LOST procedure. You are not entitled to use it. Or in this case abuse it.

I just had a look at my Trevor thom Volume 7, 2001 edition:

Page 122 second paragraph -

For a practice emergency requiring only a confirmation of your position, you can request a Training-Fix on 121.5 MHz. This call takes precedence over a Practice-Pan, but not over a real Mayday or Pan call.
Weasley, I think you are referring to a Practice-Pan. The training fix is something that could be used post PPL qualification. Although the book didn't say it, I would advise anyone attempting this to listen for a time to 121.5 just to make sure that nobody is actually involved in a genuine Pan or Mayday call.

Also if I really thought I was lost, I would make a Pan call. I agree that someone attempting to use 121.5 because they actually can't navigate efficiently should either retrain or question their motives very carefully.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Plus I have to monitor 121.5 every working day. I have no problem with the r/t calls I might miss or have to be repeated because someone in their Piper is suddenly lost. I have a big moral problem though if they are asking for a training fix, being denied, then asking for real.

There is an increasing trend for 121.5 being used to try and call airliners who aren't monitoring the control frequency, have gone to the incorrect frequency and don't have the common sense to revert to the previous one when all is silent, are not listening where they should be due to other finger trouble, or the captain has gone to the loo whilst the FO is talking to company (yes, the last one did really happen).

Perhaps a few fighter launches with all the appropriate costs being sent to the airlines involved might help focus the minds on this particular un-needed use of the emergency frequency ;) On average there is a loss of comms for a prolonged period in these circumstances at least once a day in the UK, and it's getting worse.

Back to the topic, if you are lost (or uncertain of position), then make that call to D&D. Don't dress things up to try and save face, just tell them the truth and they will do what they can to help you out. It's a no brainer.

[Final 3 Greens]

WWW

If your reference applies to my post, please would you explain, preferably in temperate language, why you have such a problem with my actions, when the D&D cell did not?

Furthermore, given the number of CAS busts near Stansted and the CAA comment about the part that featureless terrain may play in this respect, why are you so opposed to airmanship that recognised the risk of transgressing, especially given the comments by some controllers on PPrune about their concerns relating to traffic skirting their zones?

Had you been crew on an airliner forced to GA due to a zone bust, would you still be so adamant in your views?

Do you have superpowers that allow you to see through sunny haze, that was unforecast and see landmarks that are invisible to normal people?

Seems like you are opposed to a win-win outcome.

And if I was LOST, the streak of yellow down the middile of my back would get me on the radio stating precisely that and asking for vectors or other assistance IMMEDIATELY.

Of course, if you remember back to 1996, GPS was not as widely available as it is now and GPS is a great secondary navaid, if used carefully.

[GuinnessQueen]

Maxflyer, an interesting statement:

Also if I really thought I was lost, I would make a Pan call. I agree that someone attempting to use 121.5 because they actually can't navigate efficiently should either retrain or question their motives very carefully.

I would be careful with your last assumption. It is that sort of statement that makes people self conscious of confessing that they are lost. I've been lost, not plesant and I ended up calling a local radar service for VDF and subsequent QDM home.

As with all these unplanned learning experiences, it was not one event that contributed to me getting lost there were lots of little circumstances: distracted with instructing, instructing GH in a rather featureless area (which I was new to - 2nd day), ADF failure, turning back towards the airfield to discover vis was about 4 km in haze into sun. Of course my inattention to nav was significantly contributing. Suffice to say I learnt a lot more about flying on that trip than many countless others.

In flying you will fit into one of two categories: Those that have, and those that will! Don't assume you are invincible.

GQ

[Crashed&Burned]

Wouldn't like to meet WWW on an off day. What a grump!

[Maxflyer]

GuinnessQueen

The last thing I want to do is make anyone feel self conscious enough to not use everything at their disposal if lost or unsure of position. My meaning was more about people thinking there is always an easy way out. There is no easy way when flying and navigation is a skill that we always try to hone. GPS systems can have duff batteries. Electrical systems can fail, but an aircraft remains airbourne.

I am no expert and I have found myself unsure of position in the past. After my initial concern I went back to basics and resolved the issue. I would not hesitate to contact D & D if necessay.

[Emergencies R Us]

If you're lost, please call us on 121.5MHz.

If you think that you might be lost, the same applies. I don't see any point in carrying on hoping that you see something that you recognize.

If you're lost and call for a training fix, or a practise PAN saying that you're temporarily uncertain of position, unless you're a good actor or practise making calls on 121.5 very often, we'll know you're actually lost. You can tell by the voice!

If you call for a trg fix, either using DF or radar, you'll be given your position relative to the nearest large town and asked whether you require any further assistance.

If you tell me that you're lost I'll tell you all the above, but will radar identify you (if I can) to make sure that everyone else stays out of your way. I can give you a radar service or organize one for you. I can start tying your position in to what you can see out of the window so that you can start re-gaining your situational awareness.

It is not a sign of weakness or anything else if you call us on 121.5. Do I like the idea of people calling practise PANs on 121.5MHz? Yes I do; however, I am mindful of the arguments against it by the GAT fraternity. There is an obvious solution to the problem which has been suggested before. But until you GA guys (who have a big voice) and the GAT guys start asking for it, there won't be a solution.

Happy flying! :ok:

[tmmorris]

A friend of mine qualified with an NPPL last year and appeared not to know how to operate VOR or ADF equipment. Is this normal for NPPLs? (I know it's not a good idea!) There's no way he'd be doing a VOR cross-cut when lost...

Tim

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There are PLENTY of people learning to fly every week who will conduct Training Fixes with their instructor. I REALLY don't think there is any mileage in the argument that you are helping out D&D with their currency in making Training Fix calls when in fact you are LOST.

By all means use D&D when lost just DON'T try and disguise the fact by LYING and asking for a Training Fix.

This just goes to underline the poor quality of training received by many PPLs who seemingly think its somehow 'better' to disguise the fact that they are lost with D&D. What the heck were their instructors teaching them?! That D&D are some facist CAA narks just waiting to punish them for being lost in the first place?!?

This culture of Training Fix should not be tolerated and I encourage all PPL's to condemn it in their peers. If someone feels in some way inhibited in admitting to D&D that he is lost then he/she needs a slight re-education. NOT to be encouraged into thinking being sly about it is a good way around the problem: there is no problem!

What next? Turning off your transponder if you think you've bust controlled airspace? Asking for 15 degrees to the left to avoid weather that isn't there? Following IR minimas when you only hold an IMC rating? Flying out of club currency and forgetting to mention it?

Come on chaps.

WWW

[Fuji Abound]

"I'd make it an offence for anyone without an FI Rating to ask for a training fix. In fact I am writing to the CAA SRG today to ask for that to become a UK rule."


WWW - I agree with everything you say but this.

Pilots are responsible professional people (and I know their might be the odd exception). Making sure you are familiar with how to make a call to D and D, etc is as much a part of currency as PFLs.

It is a fact that their are many pilots who have never been asked to obtain a training fix and probably never will be at their renewals (I know it has never come up for me when I have done my renewals). For that reason when I do a group check with another pilot I always cover the topic.

By all means when you do renewals with pilots train them how to request a training fix correctly but PLEASE dont use the cop out you propose!

Oh and "Following IR minimas when you only hold an IMC rating?" - now come on I hope you are only referring to the legal distinctions between and IMC and IR and not the RECOMMENDED minimas - quite different things as I am sure you are aware and one on which surprisingly far too many instructors seem to be confused.

[Final 3 Greens]

WWW

At what stage does a pilot become lost?

You seem to be incapable of understanding that (a) I agree with you about 'fessing up immediately if lost, but (b) recognize a situation which is not lost, but becoming concerned about maintaining positional awareness based on the current situation, i.e. flying into increasing haze and having difficulty seeing the features ahead that would relate to the map.

So when does the pilot become lost? 10 minutes after the last firm fix against feaures, 11, 12 13?????? After all, the pilot has a VFR log that is up to date and has worked so far.

It seems to be that you are suggesting that someone should plough ahead and only deal with the situation when lost, by which time CAS may have been bust (an offence) or some other damage done.

Frankly, I think that your attitude is remarkable for a professional pilot and shows very limited capability of differentiation between the shades of grey that are present in life.

There is a great deal of difference, IMHO, between LYING about being LOST and using a training fix to avoid becoming lost.

The two things are subtly different.

I have used the training fix approach once since 1994 and never bust CAS, despite a lot of xc around the Stansted zone.

Its a record I am proud of and I believe that your thinking is flawed.What next? Turning off your transponder if you think you've bust controlled airspace? Asking for 15 degrees to the left to avoid weather that isn't there? Following IR minimas when you only hold an IMC rating? Flying out of club currency and forgetting to mention it? Whcih if these is offically sanctioned? More illogical and inflammatory comment.:mad:

[IO540]

WWW

I think you should cool down a bit.

Following IR minimas when you only hold an IMC rating?

What does the above mean? Please read the ANO. The IMCR minima are the same as the IR minima, except for 1800m min met vis for the IMCR.

I know there are recommendations to increase the mins to 500/600ft but they rank alongside recommendations to not use a GPS (it is the work of the devil), to not navigate with a rubber duck floating in a bucket, to not fly into hills (but a CFIT without the use of a GPS is permitted), not twiddle with knobs and look out of the window instead, etc.

The problem with criticising the standard of training in one area, or for a particular Rating, is that you then need to take matters to their ultimate logical conclusion and shut down PPL training in the UK, because, frankly, most of it is c**p and very poorly serves the customers who do not discover until it is too late that they can't really fly anywhere useful and even if they could they can't do it in the wreckage which they can rent off their training establishment.

I have only 500hrs but have never been uncertain of pos for a millisecond, anywhere I've been to in Europe. If aeroplanes were invented today, there wouldn't be D&D on 121.50 because nobody would need to call it. The whole system exists because of the WW1 training which pretends that dead reckoning is good airmanship and anything else is just not cricket...

[Gertrude the Wombat]

E 'R' Us said:

If you're lost and call for a training fix, or a practise PAN saying that you're temporarily uncertain of position, unless you're a good actor or practise making calls on 121.5 very often, we'll know you're actually lost. You can tell by the voice!

Excellent! Does this get taken into account when you log the calls, so that you publish statistics of "claimed" really lost calls against "actual" really lost calls?

If so, what are the numbers? - I've always wondered what proportion of "Practice PAN - temporarily uncertain of position" calls actually meant "er, I'm a bit lost".

[Whirlybird]

You don't have to be really, horribly, totally lost to call D & D. Simply call them and tell them you're uncertain of your position, and they'll tell you where you are. They don't bite, or put a black mark against your name, or call you a Bad Pilot. There is no shame in it. You can do it every week if you like, or if you need to.

What WWW is objecting to - and I agree - is lying about it. A training fix means you want to practise talking to them etc, a PAN call means you're doing it for real. And I really, really cannot see any good reason to lie about something that happens to the best of us.

So will one of you who's spoken out in support of asking for a training fix, please tell me why you consider lying better than honesty in this situation. :confused:

[Final 3 Greens]

Whirlybird

You don't have to be really, horribly, totally lost to call D & D. Simply call them and tell them you're uncertain of your position, and they'll tell you where you are
Quote from CAP413
Pilots who do not wish to carry out a practice emergency but only wish to confirm their position may request a ‘Training Fix’ on 121.5 MHz. This ‘Training Fix’ is secondary in importance to actual emergency calls but takes precedence over practice emergency calls in the event of simultaneous incidents.
So will one of you who's spoken out in support of asking for a training fix, please tell me why you consider lying better
Lying?

Looks to me like following CAP 413 and using standard phraseology, which is usually agreed to reduce misunderstandings.

As E & R says call them for a training fix and they tell you where you are. If you sound stressed out, they'll know.

When I called them, they gave me a position relative to Bishops Stortford, I confirmed my position, made sure I avoided the STN zone and off I went. Sorted, with minimum fuss and in compliance with the rules.

After your comment on another thread about taxiing fast enough to test your ASI (I believe it starts at 40 kts on a C150) and this comment, I'm getting a bit worried about you.;)

ANyway, that's my last post on this subject.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Whirlbird has it right. More to come.

WWW

[Say again s l o w l y]

As E & R says call them for a training fix and they tell you where you are. If you sound stressed out, they'll know.

So if it is likely to be obvious, why not take the guess work out and ask for what you need properly.

I don't think that banning anyone except instructors from calling is a good idea, it is a procedure like any other and needs to be practiced every so often.

If you are lost, call D&D and let them know, if you are training, then use a training fix. It's not rocket science and there is no room for interpretation.

[Whirlybird]

Pilots who do not wish to carry out a practice emergency but only wish to confirm their position may request a ‘Training Fix’ on 121.5 MHz.

Confirming your position and not being sure of it are two different things. :
a) I'm pretty sure that town is X, but I think I'll check and confirm it - confirming your position.
b) Things don't make sense; I'm really not sure where I am, but I knew where I was five minutes ago, so I can't be too far off course - being unsure of your position.
OK, there may be a grey area in between sometimes, but not usually.

After your comment on another thread about taxiing fast enough to test your ASI (I believe it starts at 40 kts on a C150) and this comment, I'm getting a bit worried about you.

The ASI on our C150, when working, will move at slightly faster than normal taxiing speeds - certainly way less than 40kts. So believe what you like and worry if you like, and don't let the truth get in the way. ;)

[englishal]

....and reel them in.......

;)

[Fuji Abound]

What WWW is objecting to - and I agree - is lying about it.


Why dont we read what is written.

www said no training fixes without a fi aboard in response to which their was universal dissent. No one supports lieing when seriously lost.

www is a fi and yet argues an important safety procedure should not be routinely rehersed in spite of the caps. In my book that is the real worry. We should perhaps question the training of fis :confused: :O

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Christ on a bike how hard is it to dial 121.5 and say the words "Pan Pan Pan I am lost"?!?!

You DON'T need to practice that! Its only speaking out loud!

What you are doing by cluttering up 121.5 is making hundreds of airliner pilots who can hear you from 250 mile radius reach down and deselect Guard. It can then be some time, if ever, before they return to monitor the frequency. Which can and does result in armed fighters being scrambled at the speed of heat into controlled and busy airspace.

I've no obejection to GA on 121.5 if they are Lost. You are not slightly unsure of your position, you are not confirming where you think you are. You are in fact unable to tell me with 100% confidence that that town is Bishops Stortford and that your aircraft is exactly here on the map. You are therefore LOST.

Its no shameful thing - heck I've been more lost and more scared about it than any of you on this thread. I've used 121.5 thousands of times for training and for really real. I've made two Pan calls in the last 10 weeks.

But I object to it being abused and cluttered up by people who are in fact lying. Get a LARS, learn to use the navaids or buy a GPS.

Cheers

WWW

ps I'm quite cheerful really :-)

[englishal]

is making hundreds of airliner pilots who can hear you from 250 mile radius reach down and deselect Guard
Gives you something to do then;)

[Final 3 Greens]

WWW

I wasn't going to post again, but cannot resist pointing out a couple of major defects in your thinking.What you are doing by cluttering up 121.5 is making hundreds of airliner pilots who can hear you from 250 mile radius reach down and deselect Guard In case you haven't noticed, the UK rules provide for training fix, airlines who wish to operate in UK airspace must accept the rules in the same way that UK airlines operating abroad must comply locally. Sorry, but that is the way it is and part of being a professional in any field is working around constraints.

Secondly, what is the extra impact of a training fix versus a practice pan or a pan? All three occupy the frequency. What you are implying is that you and your fellow sky gods should judge the appropriateness of RT use in the UK and not the CAA. That's egotistical and unbalanced thinking.

And finally, please explain how one can see Bishops Stortford at 14KM when the vis in haze is 8km - I did mention the masking effect of weather in my earlier post, or did you not read it properly? If one can't see it, one can't visually identify it and one therefore can't confirm one's position against it - what is your problem understanding this concept? Over the featureless terrain near STN, haze can be problematic and there is a history of zone busts that the CAA considers may be due, at least in part, to the lack of surface features.

That doesn't mean I am lost, it means that every 30 seconds takes me nearly 1NM nearer to the STN zone and there are no local features to take a fix from to update my vfr log. Is it good airmanship to plough on and risk busting the zone and committing a crimninal offence as well as possibly affecting safety?

So I call 121.5, say "G-XXXX training fix, training fix, training fix" and they say "G-XXXX you are XX miles XXX of Bishops Stortford." We must have occupied the 121.5 frequency for all of 10-15 seconds. If I had done a PAN PAN PAN, I would have had to pass a lot more details, taking more time and possibly getting nearer to a zone bust, as well as cluttering the frequency for longer.

If D&D had said "no can do training fix", I would have orbited and then made a "PAN" call, since I would then have lost confidence in my ability to maintain positional awareness, i.e. the risk of becoming lost would have just escalated significantly.

I find that I am within 1/2 a mile of where my vfr chart/flight log says, well outside the zone, restart my stopwatch correct my WCA and proceed on course, legally, safely and with the minimum of fuss.

The guys at D&D said it was a good use of the training fix scheme, so what precisely is your problem with a pilot doing this ONCE in 11 years?

For your information -

- there was no LARS available in 1994 in that area
- the aircraft was a club hack with no navaids, not even an ADF and navaids were not on the PPL syllabus
- GPS was not widely available in 1994, I did not have one

Now tell me again HOW I was LYING in using a training fix?

[IO540]

WWW

Get a LARS, learn to use the navaids or buy a GPS

I don't think a LARS unit is very happy with a pilot who is unable to navigate on his own. Sure they will help if asked though. But they tend to be busy enough.

Navaids are a bit of a problem. One can fly anywhere in Class G, and anywhere below Class A (VFR) with a clearance. One is outside the useful reception of a navaid, never mind within its DOC, over most of the UK surface, especially if pottering about at the low levels where many VFR pilots fly.

Yet, a PPL is legal to fly down to 3000m vis.

One can't really reconcile this, other than the usual "a PPL is only a licence to learn" statement.

The best thing the CAA could do for all this would be to make a decent size panel mounted GPS mandatory, and incorporate the training into the PPL. Not a lot of schools would like to pay for it though...

[slim_slag]

Who said it was ok to lie?

Emergencies R Us, in his excellent post, said call him whenever you feel the need, and even if you don't think you need. As I always consider the people on the ground 'own' the frequency that is good enough for me. No doubt there is some recent rule which says airline pilots should monitor 121.5 at all times, and not when it suits them.

[Fuji Abound]

“Christ on a bike how hard is it to dial 121.5 and say the words "Pan Pan Pan I am lost"?!?!”

On an aircraft I fly, with a new Narco box, if you select 121.5 they can hear you fine, but you cannot hear them. The same problem arises with Gatwick. I gather the reason is that D and D as Gatwick use multiple aerials and their frequency is not as tightly controlled as Narco would like! Pulling out the volume control to prevent the frequency clipping on transmission solves the problem. Now whilst that particular problem might be unusual it equally might only come to light on a practice fix.

Also it is surprising how many pilots have never done a training fix. As you well know D and D if asked and can accommodate you will go on to give you a series of steers. In my opinion it is worth refreshing yourself on the whole procedure again from time to time, maybe in poor viz and with a safety pilot to see how a non instrument rated pilots gets on. After all that is exactly the circumstances in which you might want to use the service in earnest. It is no good saying that is the sort of thing you should only be doing with a FI because there are a lot of very good groups out there where the pilots do continuation training together and it works very well.

I also agree it is one thing to be seriously lost (which hopefully very rarely happens!) And to not be as certain of your position as you would like particularly when navigating tightly controlled airspace. As others have said surely it is better to make use of the service without declaring a Pan.

My real point earlier though was why an earth propose yet another regulation as if pilots call for training fixes with the sole intention of making a nuisance of themselves. I can not imagine that very many do. Surely it is far better to educate pilots in the correct use of both training fixes and “I am lost” than expand yet further the law book as if it was a panacea for every perceived evil.

Finally it really concerns me when these sort of suggestions are put forward when it would seem they appear to have been so ill thought through. Before I wrote suggesting a change in the legislation I would want to have some idea what D and D actually thought of the proposal and whether they REALLY find all these calls a nuisance, how many so called training fixes do they get from pilots really lost, how many airline captains are complaining about all the chatter on 121.5 etc etc. I don’t know any of the answers but I would want to find out before posting that I am writing to ask the ANO be changed!

Legislative impact assessments - poppy cock - we will sort out the mess latter!

[Romeo Romeo]

It is true that there should be no place for ego on the flight deck, but that ignores reality. The reality is that people care about what other people think about them. Society and social pressures have a great impact on us in all aspects of our lives and to single out one specific situation and say that on the flight deck it doesn’t matter what others think is unrealistic. There are many examples of this in the accident reports ranging from low-hours PPLs doing low-level aerobatics to impress their friends to high-hour airline co-pilots who would rather keep quiet and risk death rather than saying something to the captain – the 1977 Tenerife disaster with the greatest aviation loss of life is an example of this.

There are also different degrees of ‘being lost’. Just because you don’t know where you are doesn’t mean you’re lost. I don’t know where my car-keys are at the moment – they could be in one of several places, but it would be wrong to say that I’ve lost them. Pilotage and dead-reckoning involves position fixes about every 10 minutes with a period of uncertainty between these fixes. It would be wrong to say you were ‘lost’ between these fixes even though you might not know precisely where you are.

Put these two aspects together. Consider a young low-hours PPL who’s just got his license and is taking his new girlfriend out for her first flight. Everything was going well until a few minutes ago when he couldn’t make that last position fix – which was 10 minutes after his previous position fix. So he’s feeling a little uneasy because that means it’s now 15 minutes ago when he knew where he was. Uneasy, but he doesn’t feel that one missed position fix means he’s lost. One thing he really doesn’t want to do is get onto Distress and Diversion and say ‘I’m lost’! This is the first time he’s taken his girlfriend out flying and what will she think! She’s nervous enough as it is and she’ll never go flying with him again if that happened! Those dreams of flying holidays to France go right down the pan with that one press of the PTT button.

How much easier is it for him to get onto D+D and get a training fix? Confirming your position is a perfectly proper use of the service and that’s all he really wants because he’s not lost – he just couldn’t find that last position fix. It’s even easier for him to do if he’s asked for a training fix in the past when he knew exactly where he was and so has some experience of talking to London Centre. It may be that the position fix will not confirm his position, but confirm that he’s lost and he’ll be able to inform D+D of this and ask for further assistance, but at least he’ll know and know earlier than if he’d kept quiet.

I’ve only ever spoken to London Centre once. One lazy evening when I was just to the north of the Severn estuary with no-one in particular to talk to, I thought about this Training Fix advice and I thought I’d give it a go – and the chaps at London Centre were great! It was so easy, so un-stressed and I won’t hesitate to talk to them again if required.

My reasoning was that I’ve never spoken to D+D so I gave them a call and ask for a Training Fix. That way I’ve spoken to them once and in the future if the chips are down and I do have a real problem at least it’ll be one less thing I’m doing for the first time. Yet again it’s a perfectly proper use of the service and I’m sure one Training Fix once in a flying career won’t cause too many missed clearances for the airlines (besides they’re the main uses of 121.5. Sometimes it sounds like a fencing competition the number of people who are on there saying ‘on guard’!)

Also in future I will ask for a training fix if I am a little uncertain and I want confirmation of my position – and I’ll do it early rather than waiting until I am lost. I doubt it will ever happen because my GPS, nav-aids and my general navigation skill means that I nearly always know where I am, but it’s nice to know it’s there if needed.

[Final 3 Greens]

Romeo RomeoPilotage and dead-reckoning involves position fixes about every 10 minutes with a period of uncertainty between these fixes. It would be wrong to say you were ‘lost’ between these fixes even though you might not know precisely where you are.
I wish I had used your elegant simple words ;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The first link in the chain of an horrendous accident killing hundreds could well be that 50 minutes earlier Commander Boeing deselected 121.5 due to the incessant clamour of training fix requests (it was a hazy summer Saturday in the UK).

On Gin clear days you hear few Training Fix calls. On Hazy days you get loads and the reason is obviously NOT that everyone just decides to 'practice' talking to D&D - its because dozens of PPL's are Lost or Temporarily Unsure of Position or whatever euphenism you want to use. Rather than 'fess up they try to imply they are not actually unsure of anything but merely wish to practice an r/t procedure.

A GPS is now under £100 and would allow you to stop blocking what is a very important communication channel. I know you might only use it for 30 seconds and it sound quiet when you tune in. But honestly some days its an almost torrent of Practice Pans and Training Fixes. You Can't put up with it interfering with you actual r/t and so 121.5 gets deselected.

I wish for the CAA to conduct enquiries about how common this is and then I expect they will tackle the level of 121.5 useage in the UK FIR. You don't get it in other countries airspace. We are a little unusual in that respect.

Cheers

WWW

[ShyTorque]

WWW

Horse****? I think (especially as) as a moderator you have rather gone over the top on this one. If I berated yourself using such language I could expect to be at least moderated or even banned.

Firstly, without doubt, the most common cause of clutter on 121.5 these days is caused by "professional" airline pilots calling on the distress frequency instead of the frequency they should be on. This is compounded by other (often same company) pilots telling them they are on 121.5. Both are inappropriate use of the frequency, highly unprofessional, because neither are entitled to use 121.5 in this manner.

Secondly, a student pilot (or any other) asking for a training fix gets a position fix, full stop from D&D. A pilot making a "Pan" call and declaring himself lost (he might not be lost, just a little uncertain of a couple of position fixes) by definition gets much more D&D assistance, which actually ties up much far more air time.

A call made in good time, by a student pilot uncertain of position, using a training fix prefix (he would be perfectly entitled, the CAP reference has been quoted already) could well prevent a much more serious situation from developing. I think NO-ONE is condoning "lying"on the R/T, as per your accusation.

Please consider moderating your own post and language in this respect.

As for your last post "The first link in the chain of an horrendous accident killing hundreds could well be that 50 minutes earlier Commander Boeing deselected 121.5 due to the incessant clamour of training fix requests (it was a hazy summer Saturday in the Uk"

You cannot be serious. What evidence of this is there? Rather like an inexperienced car driver making an incorrect indicator selection at a roundabout and being accused of causing a motorway pileup 50 minutes later?

BTW, GPS is not authorised for primary navigation by the CAA in UK. To condone its use for primary navigation in an emergency, in preference to the official D&D service is surely incorrect.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Inadvertent transmission on 121.5 is just that and there is no solution to it.

A student pilot shouldn't be making a Training Fix call to 'verify' his position he should be making a Pan Lost call. This is the cancer that so annoys me. TRAINING fix - what does that imply to you? It implies to me that you know exactly where you are and wish to practice an r/t procedure. Unless a student is specifically instructed on his pre-solo brief to conduct such a practice then he or she should not be doing so. Frankly.

The evidence of the dangers of airliners not monitoring guard are numerous and self evident. God help the hapless GA pilot in a remote area outside range of D&D who COULD have been helped or relayed by an airliner above IF ONLY the pilot had not deselected 121.5 half an hour ago because some lying PPL was 'unsure of his postion' WHATEVER THE HECK THAT MEANS?!

Do you think scrambling fighters into congested airways poses no risk to flight safety? Do you think the masses of r/t and ATC Officer time consumed by an airliner going off frequency and NOT monitoring guard is anything other than to the detriment of flight safety. Its happening every day of every week and the reason is that 121.5 in the UK is grossly overused and ABUSED by the PPL community.

Frankly I think most PPLs think it interesting and stimulating to make a call to D&D. I know I used to get a kick out of it when I was a PPL and an Instrutor. But its really not necessary half the time and the other half its someone lost who is trying to disguise the fact with the bogus use of the words Training Fix.

An effective solution would be to change D&D procedure and make their intial response to a Training Fix call to be "Roger triangulation in process please state your position". In the case of a genuine Training Fix being required the student, PPL or instructor would respond "Position approx 2 miles North of Gloucester". D&D would then confirm that "your fix position indicated 4 miles North North West of Gloucester".

Either that or there would be an embarassed silence followed by a Pan call...

You don't get banned for saying horse**** - its a mild expletive that doesn't even generate asterisks and it accurately reflects my contempt of the defence of the ever increasing abuse of the Training Fix.

This is a flight safety issue.

Cheers

WWW

[BEagle]

I cannot see any justifiable reason for a 'Training Fix' on the D&D frequency to be made by anyone except either an instructor demonstrating the use of D&D or a trainee practising it under the supervision of the instructor.

If there really is a plethora of 'Training Fix' requests being made then a survey of a day's 121.5 calls would perhaps be useful?

[Romeo Romeo]

As stated earlier, from CAP413:-

Pilots who do not wish to carry out a practice emergency but only wish to confirm their position may request a ‘Training Fix’ on 121.5 MHz. This ‘Training Fix’ is secondary in importance to actual emergency calls but takes precedence over practice emergency calls in the event of simultaneous incidents.

Also from the CAA D+D poster:-

Practise as much as you want - it is free and one day may save your or another person’s life!

Perhaps you can question the advice and maybe seek to get it changed, but berating pilots for following this official advice is perhaps unfair.

[IO540]

GPS is not authorised for primary navigation by the CAA in UK

The current ANO is here

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051970.htm

I'd be grateful if you would locate a reference for the above statement.

This disinformation has been around for as long as GPS. Please don't spread it further.

[BEagle]

Improper use of 121.5 cannot be condoned. It does not belong to D&D, it is an international distress frequency.

A Training Fix is useful for both flight instructional and D&D training purposes - it is emphatically NOT a supplementary navigational technique for the inept.

If you are lost, admit it to yourself. Then, unless you're already working another unit, get onto 121.5 and admit it! It might cause some airliner-driver to have to turn down the second radio for a few minutes between waypoint watching, but better to disturb his hugely demanding day by calling 121.5 than to disturb it by blundering unannounced, uninvited and unwelcome into the approach path of the airport he's trying to land at.

D&D will be able to identify you and, if you need it, hand you off to another unit to give you any necessary navigational asistance.

Old-fashioned 'lost procedure' is increasingly becoming irrelevant in south central and south east UK due to the airspace complexity. So don't faff, call if you need to and don't pretend that you are only practising when in fact you need real assistance.

In the UK, GPS should be considered a supplementary VFR navigation aid unless the aircraft is fitted with an IFR-approved system. Even then it is an area navigation aid only and under no circumstances an approach aid. Yet......

[Final 3 Greens]

BEagle

If LOST, yes, absolutely tell D&D immediately and make it clear. Any other action is foolhardy and threatening flight safety.

However, if you wish to CONFIRM POSITION and my interpretation of this is that it would be a very infrequent event for each pilot, the training fix process allows this and is promulgated as such. It seems to me that it breaks a link in a potential accident chain and if used with respect, then is an excellent facility.

With the very greatest of respect, 121.5 may be an internationally recognised frequency, but in UK jurisdiction, UK agencies decide the proper use of the radio frequencies.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

An effective solution would be to change D&D procedure and make their intial response to a Training Fix call to be "Roger triangulation in process please state your position". In the case of a genuine Training Fix being required the student, PPL or instructor would respond "Position approx 2 miles North of Gloucester". D&D would then confirm that "your fix position indicated 4 miles North North West of Gloucester". That's plenty enough uncertainty to get you into serious trouble given that ... Old-fashioned 'lost procedure' is increasingly becoming irrelevant in south central and south east UK due to the airspace complexity. The only time I've ever reported "uncertain of position" (not on 121.5) I knew where I was to within three or four miles, but I also knew that controlled airspace was not very far away.

[Romeo Romeo]

CAP413 is quite clear. Pilots who wish to confirm their position may request a ‘Training Fix’
Dead reckoning - flying a heading and time in uncertain winds will by its definition result in an uncertain position, but this uncertainty does not mean you are lost. Pilotage is used to confirm your position at frequent intervals and so keep this uncertainty manageable. CAP413 quite clearly states that Training Fixes can also be used to confirm position.

I don't think anyone is advocating using a Training Fix often or when lost or lying on the radio but I don't think it is right to criticise pilots for using a facility as sanctioned in official documents.

If there is a problem then criticism should be directed at these official documents, not at those following them.

[High Wing Drifter]

IO540,

The understanding that GPS is not "authorised" for all VFR and most IFR primary nav stems from the wording in this AIC: http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4P041.PDF

[ShyTorque]

WWW, I think you have missed the point.

I agree that 121.5 DOES get over used and I am certainly NOT suggesting that every student pilot should be routinely calling D&D for training fixes.

However, the amount of air time occupied by a properly executed training fix call and reply is usually a lot shorter than a PAN call and the subsequent run of questions and answers, which can really clog up the frequency for some time. In my opinion, if a student becomes concerned about his navigation / position, it is surely better to call for assistance early rather than leave it until he is definitely completely lost and he has continued into regulated airspace, a parachute zone or a danger area. Prevention is better than cure, a stitch in time saves nine, etc. A “training fix” consists of a quick two way exchange, all done and the frequency cleared asap. Student has now confirmed his position, safely on his way, end of story. This is nothing new BTW, again, it IS in the CAP!

On the other hand, a lost PPL blundering about, not talking to anyone whilst possibly looking inside at a "£100 GPS" which he can't interpret properly causes chaos on more frequencies than just 121.5 - ask Luton Radar, or Brize Zone, who seem to have suffered more than their fair share of airspace busts this summer.

If a pilot deselects or turns down the volume of guard frequency to an inaudible level and doesn't turn it back up again, it is a CRM and cockpit procedural issue.

The most common “nuisance” calls heard on 121.5 (almost every day in UK over the last few years) seem to originate from commercial aircraft. Some pilots on scheduled IFR flights, having misdialled their next frequency and not having the sense to go back to the original one result in London Centre or other ATC agencies being obliged to attempt contact on "Guard".

I wonder what is going on in those cockpits but it may well be because the NHP never wrote down his previous frequency and can't remember it once he has twirled the dials. That’s a CRM and training issue coupled with poor airmanship.

Another source of misuse of the frequency is when the wrong transmitter box is selected. On 121.5 we hear the initial call, no reply, repeat of the initial call, followed by someone replying "You're on Guard". This can be repeated a couple of times where the same errant pilot has turned down his 121.5 receiver volume and can't hear any reply. This mistake is often made by commercial crews (some airlines seem to be heard more often than others, but that's a separate argument). I hold my hand up (and my head down in shame) and admit I have done this too, but only once of course (due to unfamiliarity with a transmitter head; we weren't using our regular aircraft). I apologise to all of you who listened and possibly turned down your box 2 volume in disgust. I hope you remembered to turn the volume back up again. :O

A hapless GA pilot in a remote area outside range of D&D? Is there evidence of this being a real problem rather than supposition? Where are these remote areas of UK? A hapless GA pilot in a remote area with a problem, i.e. uncertain of his position is highly likely to turn UP the volume of 121.5, not turn it down, or at least should do if he has been trained properly.

Fighters being scrambled against airliners? Once or twice in recent times in UK, as a result of an increase in the nation's security state. Exciting stuff, but in the big picture this has happened very infrequently indeed and cannot seriously be blamed on a student pilot calling for a training fix!

Without wanting to be disrespecful, and without using bad language to you, especially as you are now a moderator ;) it appears that you have jumped on a pedestal over what you see as a student "honesty" issue. You are the only instructor I have ever heard of to routinely get on the phone to try and "trap" his students away on solo navexes. Did your RAF QFI do that to you? I never did, it certainly wasn’t the normal thing to do during my time instructing on a UAS (admittedly some time before you became a member of UWAS, so it might have changed). Don't you trust your students to debrief you honestly? I always did.

Good discussion but best to listening to the other side of the argument without getting angry.

[slim_slag]

If a pilot deselects or turns down the volume of guard frequency to an inaudible level and doesn't turn it back up again, it is a CRM and cockpit procedural issue.

not only that, but it's been claimed it's a safety issue, and yet they still do it!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

As I said - inasvertant transmission on Gaurd is just that and can't be solved.

I agree Training Fix is in the CAP, the book needs changing.

On a hazy summer Saturday there is a call on D&D once every 90 secs so the 121.5 monitoring gets turned down and stays down as you have your own r/t to perform plus checklists plus flying the jet. Yes it should get turned back up but REALITY is that it often doesn't for quite some time. The knack that some people seem to have to make a call to D&D *just* at the very second you are getting a much needed descent clearance from a manically busy London controller is unbelievable. In that respect use of 121.5 pollutes the rest of the airwaves.

As for being outside of range of D&D well that happens all the time below 3000ft in many parts of Wales, Scotland and the Lake District.

Fighters are being scambled every week for years now in the UK and the surrounding European states. An airliner turning down the infernal racket on 121.5 as they pass over London has overflown, Belgium, France, Holland and Germany in the next 30 minutes maybe... A LOT of people stop monitoring Guard over the UK because we are famous for the high level of its use.

Didn't do many landaways in the Bulldog. But yes I did make a quick call to the tower when supervising PPL student solo navexs. 95% of the time the tower guy would say "yeah they got here fine, r/t was good/bad/indifferent". But sometimes it would be "actually they were terrible on the radio and did some weird join straight onto downwind then bounced like a kangaroo on touchdown - I had my finger on the crash button". Its good to know for the sake of a 20p phone call. Nothing sinister - just thorough.

Cheers

WWW

[Fuji Abound]

WWW - so we are all clear

"On a hazy summer Saturday there is a call on D&D once every 90 secs so the 121.5"

are you suggesting the vast majority of these are genuine training fixes, or pilots a "bit" uncertain of their position, or pilots totally lost?

I ask because something doesnt add up - I just cant imagine their are these huge numbers of pilots getting a kick out of making a genuine training fix.

[Final 3 Greens]

On a hazy summer Saturday there is a call on D&D once every 90 secs Publish the data source to justify this please. Also the breakdown of the types of call, including those mentioned by ShyTorque.

[ShyTorque]

I don't agree that the book needs changing, you are still missing the point I was trying to make.

You said that a solo student pilot should NOT call under the guise of a training fix because it is dishonest / not allowed. It's not really dishonest and it IS a legitimate use of the Emergency frequency, in accordance with national procedures.

But it is fine for a student to make the same call as long as he makes it a "PAN" call and he is more lost than he was before?

This takes up MORE air time on 121.5 and by perhaps leaving the call for a position fix until he was REALLY lost, he may cause mayhem, especially if an airspace bust has taken place in the vicinity of arrivals or departures (ask Luton Radar). I can't follow the logic of the argument.

Perhaps a separate emergency channel for solo student pilots might be the answer. Perhaps your airline might like to fund it, or cease trading on a Saturday? :E :ok:

[whowhenwhy]

Guys, for starters I think that the D&D sections in CAP413 and the CAA D&D poster were both produced by D&D and then sent to the CAA. If you want to blame someone for the mix up, not that I think that there is one, blame D&D.

As far as the guys like E R Us are concerned, if you call for a training fix, it's just that, for trg. You know where you are and are just demonstrating the procedure to a student, or perhaps are a student. However, as E R Us confirmed, unfortunately sometimes people call a training fix, but are obviously actually lost. Is this down to wilful lying or is it down to the fact that they were trained to call for a training fix, rather than a PAN? I don't know.

WWW, while I can see the reason why you're suggesting the change to D&D procedure, it would actually make things more long-winded than they need to be. As someone else has already stated, it should be a simple rapid process. You request a fix and straight away you're given it and asked whether you need anything else. I'm sure that the guys wouldn't want it to be any more complicated. Especially when the reason for the complication would be just to try to catch someone out. The D&D guys aren't there to act as the air police. They're there to help people out with no hidden agenda!

[IO540]

HWD

Ah yes that 2002 leaflet from the CAA.

Firstly, this is not LAW. The bit which applies to OCAS is advisory.

Most of that leaflet is concerning IFR navigation in CAS. The bit about BRNAV is correct, AFAIK, and it's funny to note that in the GA context (no INS available) a BRNAV GPS is the only way one can fly in the airways.

Also, some of it doesn't make sense, e.g. 3.1.3.1 which assumes that when IFR OCAS one is always within the DOC of a navaid, which isn't the case.

3.2.1 is the one which anti-GPS people clutch at, I think. What does "operations shall be predicated on" mean? This is vague rubbish. What does "supplemental aid" mean? Does it mean that you are supposed to map read and ignore the GPS until lost? No, it doesn't mean anything really.

3.2.2 likewise.

How does one navigate IFR OCAS, without a radar service? Map reading isn't practical, nor is it practical at 3km vis which a PPL can fly at "VFR".

[SwanFIS]

121.5 is a dedicated frequency for dealing with actual and perceived may-days, pans and situations where a/c are lost or temporarily unsure of their position. It is staffed by highly trained RAF officers who have the equipment and knowledge to assist in these situations and the means to stop a problem turning into an emergency.

GA pilots may well misuse this service at times but I have not heard D&D staff calling for radical changes and restrictions in its everyday use as an emergency channel of communication as a result.

These days a PLOC is taken very seriously and a call on 121.5 will be made before further action is taken against a silent airliner. The guard frequency was not designed for this but now it is being suggested that the procedures for its use, real and training, are changed to accommodate the recalcitrant airliner crew not listening on their assigned frequency.

Would it not make more sense to leave what is a very important national safety asset alone and look into other frequencies, procedures or channels of communication when dealing with PLOCs?

[Keef]

Phew! Thanks, SWANFIS, I was beginning to lose the will to live.

Several contrary opinions have been repeated several times, with attached insults. Not a lot has been achieved towards a consensus here, so I can guess what the authorities will do.

I don't monitor 121.5 as much as WWW does, and I certainly haven't made thousands of calls on there. But I have to say that I've heard many more airliners who'd goofed up their frequency selection than I've heard PPLs who were "sort-of lost". Maybe I was flying at the wrong times.

I asked the folks at D&D about this on a visit a few years ago, and their response was that they were always there and always pleased to have a call. It's an excellent service they provide - I've not come across a similar one anywhere else (although US Flight Following is impressive).

Why can't we take the advice of the good people at West Drayton and Swanwick, and leave it at that?

[High Wing Drifter]

IO540,

Apologies for subjecting yet another thread to the Drifter(tm) brand of tangentialization.
How does one navigate IFR OCAS, without a radar service? Map reading isn't practical, nor is it practical at 3km vis which a PPL can fly at "VFR".
Reading the ANO, those wonderful people at the CAA effectively state that DR in IMC is favourable to non FM Immune VOR tracking. Just more of the same?

[IO540]

What you really mean is that mean tracking a VOR which is too far away for official reception, using non-FM-immune equipment, is OK.

Puts quite an interesting slant on these "AICs" emanating from the CAA, doesn't it?

The people that write some of this stuff evidently aren't aware of the flight rules OCAS.

Sadly, these bizzare "pink" leaflets, drafted on the back of a fag packet over a pint or two, get read by a lot of people who take them as gospel, because they look "official".

[Say again s l o w l y]

F3G, However, if you wish to CONFIRM POSITION and my interpretation of this is that it would be a very infrequent event for each pilot, the training fix process allows this and is promulgated as such. It seems to me that it breaks a link in a potential accident chain and if used with respect, then is an excellent facility.

If someone is pretty sure of where they are, but wants confirmation, may I suggest learning to read a map a bit better!

D&D are not there as a nav aid, they are there to try and get you out of the cr*p.

It doesn't seem as if there will be any consensus over this topic, but it is an interesting debate.

People stuff up every day and when it comes to radio boxes it can be a mine field. In your average airliner the boxes are tucked away out of your direct line of sight, unlike in most G/A types. Add this to the fact that you are often working both boxes at the same time (along with PA's etc.) it is no wonder there are a lot of mistakes made. This doesn't justify it, but with the much greater amount of commercial traffic around compared to G/A it is hardly surprising that most of the incorrect calls come from that sector.

I'll make my point again for the last time. D&D is there as an aid to flight safety, if you abuse it by pretending you aren't lost when you really are, then you cheapen the value of this service and in my eyes make yourself look like a d*ckhead.

Use it when you need to, but don't abuse this service just because you aren't man (or woman) enough to admit to being lost and asking for help when you really need it.

[fly mayday airlines]

Its not devious to ask for a training fix when lost ,its just aircrafty.:p

[Final 3 Greens]

SAS

There is a clear consensus on this thread, that if lost, a PPL should contact D&D, inform them clearly of the situation and do not abuse the training fix to do that.

A minority of posters, including an airline pilot who appears to be better at telling than listening and an over representation from the FI community appear to have a problem with pilots following the guidelines set by D&D and CAP413 for the use of the training fix scheme.

If the airline pilot stopped to consider that life is not fair, he might be a little less uptight. For example, his employers do not pay VAT on fuel and private pilots do, but we don't whinge about how unfair that is and make a safety case that "because avgas is so expensive, we don't carry suitable reserves and its Gordon Brown's fault if we crash through fuel starvation." That level of thinking should have been dealt with by the fifth form debating society.

As for the FIs, you really appear to have jumped on a bandwagon, assuming (on data that is not declared) that there are many PPLs out there who lie frequently.

Until you have solid data to justify that line of thinking, I regard it as unsound and a matter of regret from people who should be paragons of judgement, in aviation matters at least.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its self evident because you hear no training fixes on a gin clear day then 10 in an hour on a hazy one. Training fixes are being used by many to help them get un-lost and I think that's wrong.

Quote the CAP all you like. I'm making the case to get the CAP changed. The UK's out of line with other JAA states that simply don't have the level of noise pollution on 121.5 that we do.

If you want VAT free fuel then buy a diesel diamond or a turbine single. But lets not forget that what I do at work is provide PUBLIC transport just like a bus or train or ferry driver. I typically do about 12 domestic sectors a week with an 85% load factor so thats 1524 people moving domestically. You want them all in their cars clogging up the road and having fatal accidents then fine.

Cheers

WWW

[Final 3 Greens]

Its self evident because you hear no training fixes on a gin clear day then 10 in an hour on a hazy one. Training fixes are being used by many to help them get un-lost and I think that's wrong.
So what is it, 1 every 6 minutes or 1 every 90 seconds? What methodology did you use to capture this information, what was the size of your sample, what was the range of the data population and what standard deviation did you encounter?
If you want VAT free fuel then buy a diesel diamond or a turbine single. But lets not forget that what I do at work is provide PUBLIC transport just like a bus or train or ferry driver. I typically do about 12 domestic sectors a week with an 85% load factor so thats 1524 people moving domestically. You want them all in their cars clogging up the road and having fatal accidents then fine. Again you demonstrate your complete inability to understand the other point of view.

Also you seem to fail to realise that bus and train companies pay VAT on fuel, so you obviously couldn't even be bothered to do some basic research before making your statement.

Anyway, that is beside the point, since I was making an ironic point that seems to have gone straight over your head. I think that you should just accept that you have a great job that many would love to do, learn to put up with the frustrations that go with it and be thankful that you do not have to fly in the US, say in the NYC area, where you would probably become very vexed with the ways things are done.

Its self evident because you hear no training fixes on a gin clear day then 10 in an hour on a hazy one. Training fixes are being used by many to help them get un-lost and I think that's wrong. Proof please, not assumptions.

[ShyTorque]

WWW,

Oh dear. You must have your foggles on over this!

Would you rather have ten "PAN" calls instead?

The noise pollution that you suffer occurs because in UK we have D&D; in other states they don't have this facility!

Changing the procedures WON'T stop PPL students keeping themselves out of trouble by calling for assistance (or extricating themselves from it in retrospect if they leave it too late) and it will STILL be on 121.5, whatever the prefix of the call. They are perfectly entitiled to do this and long may they continue to be allowed to do it.

You will STILL get the same problem. Sorry, but your logic is flawed, old chap.

[drauk]

Yesterday was pretty hazy, but VFR-able. I had 121.5 on in the background for several hours. I heard ZERO calls from PPLs, despite being within earshot of Elstree, Denham, Heathrow and City zones etc. I heard 4 airliners - 3 calls on the wrong frequency and 1 who couldn't get a response from what he thought was the right frequency.

[Fuji Abound]

I have been folowing this thread with interest including a few posts.

I was flying today. The mission was only an hour, cloud base around 1,300 feet, viz maybe 4K. Like Drauk I didnt hear a single Pan but I did have a Speedbird on the wrong frequency.

On the occasions I have used guard for the odd genuine training fix with other pilots (I admit not very often) I have not heard all these calls so it was interesting to listen out for an hour. I should have expected around 40 calls in that time.

I too would be very interested to know WWW where you get your figures from??:confused

[slim_slag]

You got to learn to take www with a pinch of salt.

Last time he ventured into the domain of the 'heroes of the PFA' he was ranting on about how we all needed to install mode S because

Hundreds and thousands of times a day airliners at 9,000ft are being spuriously vectored around and held high/low because of someone chugging around with their ModeA in a C152. I regularly get "avoiding action - turn right, right heading 180, unknown traffic no height information 3 miles in your 1 o' clock"...

Suddenly 50odd tons of airliner is cranking round a steep (for us) turn with people falling over in the cabin and two pilots scrunching their faces up expecting a loud bang.

I genuinely don't think he likes light aircraft pilots unless they are students providing hours for instructors so they can get into the airlines.

[Fuji Abound]

"Hundreds and thousands of times"

Conservatively that is 104 every 90 seconds - it is not really surprising they get their frequencies confused.

Still, never a dull moment.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Glad to see this debate is not straying into the realms of childishness.:rolleyes:

Airlines may not pay tax on fuel, but who pays for ATC in this country? It certainly isn't G/A. Oh that's right, it's paid for by the airlines........ F3G, you might not, but I certainly whinge about how much tax we have to pay on AVGAS, one of the reasons we are just about to get a diesel machine.

However, the argument about who pays for what and who doesn't is utterly spurious in this situation, personally I have no idea what the statistics are and to be frank I'm not sure I care.

The simple point is this. If you think you are lost or in trouble in any way, ask for help. You can always downgrade if things get better, but at least if there is a problem, then the people who may be able to help you are already aware of any difficulties.

It is not the fact that people use this service that bothers me, but the fact that it is regarded as an aid. I've said it before and I'll say it again, PPL's would be far more advised in getting their general standard on navigation up, than thinking up ways of covering over the cracks.

The general consensus amongst examiners and the CAA is that the standard of nav skills in the PPL world is very poor. Maybe it over-reliance on aids such as GPS? Or just that Navigation is being badly taught in schools? Whatever it is the facts are clear, more people than ever are bouncing into control zones and busting danger areas.

We fly in very congested airspace in this country, where unlike a lot of other countries it is very, very easy to make mistakes. We have lots of areas where light aircarft can have a very large (and usually negative) effect on commercial Ops. Whilst I have every sympathy for the G/A community (being part of it helps!) it can be hugely frustrating if you are screaming along at 250kts+ and you all of a sudden have to take avoiding action, because someone can't be bothered to put their transponder on ALT, mind you even then it doesn't always help, since the altitude readout is still unverified.

There will always be problems between commercial traffic and G/A, since their goals and requirements are totally different.

Anyway back to the point, If you are monitoring 121.5, you won't hear every call from light a/c, simply because their radios aren't powerful enough, but you'll certainly hear an awful lot more commercial traffic because of the power output and altitude of the transmissions. So it isn't really any kind of argument to say "I heard this whilst I was flying" therefore it's gospel.

I certainly know that people use this service and don't admit to being on trouble, since I talk to pilots and have often heard the boast about not admitting to being lost, but somehow pulling a fast one by getting help from D&D under the guise of a 'training fix' whilst in reality not having a clue where they were.

That is the attitude I object to, trying to hoodwink an excellent services to cover their own inadequacies. Not on and in my case leads to a swift 'chat' about not taking the p*ss.
By all means use the service if you are genuinely lost and need help or to confirm where you think you are, but just don't boast about how clever you are afterwards to the CFI. All I'm thinking is what a prat, not what a clever chap.

[Final 3 Greens]

SASAirlines may not pay tax on fuel, but who pays for ATC in this country? It certainly isn't G/A. Oh that's right, it's paid for by the airlines........ F3G, you might not, but I certainly whinge about how much tax we have to pay on AVGAS, one of the reasons we are just about to get a diesel machine. If you re-read my post that first mentions tax on avgas, you will see that I used it as an analogy to parody WWWs ludicrous comments about a PPLs use of training fixes causing a disaster. Having consulted to major airlines, I am aware of their contribution towards ATC and for that matter the airport and pax taxes too.

Other than that, I tend to agree with everything else that you say.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I do like a healthy debate. Saw Again Slowly has my position spot on.

Airliners going off guard then missing a frequecy change IS IS IS a serious flight safety hazard and the reason so many aren't on Guard in Northern Europe is the high level of GA Training Fix and its evil twin Practice Pan in the UK FIR. Its way above my pay grade to sort the problem but I hope someone will look into it soon.

Cheers

WWW

[Yorks.ppl]

I wonder if the number of training fix requests has increased as a result of this thread.

[IO540]

SAS

No doubt in my mind that nav is poorly addressed in PPL training, but it's not because of over reliance on GPS.

GPS is just about never used in PPL training (fair enough, not in the syllabus) and I would suggest a simple (if impractical) experiment:

Get a 100 PPLs (chosen to be a representative sample of experience of real PPLs) to fly a decent x/c route, through some real airspace issues, e.g. Goodwood to Prestwick. In the winter, in a standard non-deiced aircraft.

Well within their PPL privileges!

Get 50 of them to blindly follow a moving map GPS while remaining at/above the planned MSA and not looking at the ground at all, for the whole route. No chart permitted aboard the aircraft, either.

Get 50 of them to navigate using dead reckoning as they've been taught.

Which group do you think will bust more airspace?

Which group do you think will have more fatal accidents along the way?

I think the answer is obvious.

"We" teach navigation as it was in 1920, with no CAS, and in the days when flying was done by real (generally wealthy) men wearing leather caps and goggles, in cloth covered biplanes, who liked danger, excitement, who got admired by the press and the public for doing wild things (even if 99.9% of the public could not afford to do these things). This favourable situation lasted, in one form or another, till about 40 years ago.

But everything else has changed.

Today's PPLs are pretty average people, and most can't even afford a decent headset.

The training industry, what's left of it given the above rather significant constraint, is keen to strip £8000 off everyone who walks through the door - can't blame them, if I was running a school I'd probably be doing the same.

The CAA (the only organisation with the oversight to do anything about this) isn't bothered. They run safety seminars telling people to not fly into hills - especially not with a GPS.

[PPRuNe Radar]

IO540

I can see the thrust of your argument, however ...

Get 50 of them to blindly follow a moving map GPS while remaining at/above the planned MSA and not looking at the ground at all, for the whole route. No chart permitted aboard the aircraft, either.

Today's PPLs are pretty average people, and most can't even afford a decent headset.

So what makes you think such PPLs will be able to afford to have their GPS database updated to show CAS boundary changes every AIRAC cycle ??

[Fuji Abound]

None of this logically makes any sense at all!

WWW is objecting to pilots asking for a training fix when they are lost and is suggesting that the vast majority of training fixes are really from pilots who are lost or who are "nearly" lost.

If a pilot is lost or nearly lost he needs to make the call on 121.5. We all agree on that. We also agree the pilot should own up to being lost, although some of us argue being uncertain of your position in contrast to totally lost doesn’t warrant a full pan. We also seem to agree that the vast majority of the calls aren’t pilots wanting a genuine training fix - in other words those that know their position accurately.

The argument for me is therefore nonsense because we have an allegedly huge number of pilots who are lost or nearly lost who should be making the call in the interests of everyone’s safety and yet we are proposing to legislate against them doing so. Who is running the asylum??!!

Whether all these pilots should be lost or nearly lost is a totally different matter. Clearly they should not. Who is to blame - well I am afraid it has to be the FIs. The fact of the matter is get the training right and the problem will go away.

I have one analogy. When we are new pilots we have our fare share of go arounds. No one asks if these are practise go arounds or are because the landing is looking a bit iffy! In either case they do take up valuable ATC time but we recognise there necessity. Of course we could only permit a go around with a FI aboard unless it was a real go around:confused:

"Anyway back to the point, If you are monitoring 121.5, you won't hear every call from light a/c, simply because their radios aren't powerful enough, but you'll certainly hear an awful lot more commercial traffic because of the power output and altitude of the transmissions. So it isn't really any kind of argument to say "I heard this whilst I was flying" therefore it's gospel."

You are of course correct BUT it still doesn’t explain why the numbers of calls are so much fewer than suggested.

[slim_slag]

Say again slowly,

You say

"It is not the fact that people use this service that bothers me, but the fact that it is regarded as an aid."

Then you say

"By all means use the service if you are genuinely lost and need help or to confirm where you think you are"

There is a contradiction in there somewhere.

"So it isn't really any kind of argument to say "I heard this whilst I was flying" therefore it's gospel."

But that is the basis of www's argument. Besides, you might not hear the spamcan but you will hear the D&D side. Just out of interest, how often do you hear GA calls on 121.5, either practice pans or asking for training fixes (or the ground station replying).

What I think is interesting, and probably goes to the root of this debate and the problems GA has in the UK, is when you say

"There will always be problems between commercial traffic and G/A, since their goals and requirements are totally different."

An interesting attitude, and one I think is totally wrong. Look across the sea and you will find places where GA and non GA live side by side in almost perfect harmony. Of course if one side has contempt for the other then there will never be agreement, which appears to be the situation here.

www,

Healthy debate is fine, so why don't you enter into one? If you blunder in here telling people they are talking 'horse****, then make apparently wild claims and on questioning cannot justify them (or ignore the questions) you cannot complain if you lose some credibility.

[IO540]

PPRuNe Radar

I was hoping that my requirement to not carry a chart would be taken as intended (very obviously tongue in cheek) to illustrate the ludicrous double standard that exists in GA.

There is a huge gulf between the training, and what is expected of today's pilots in terms of navigation.

[Say again s l o w l y]

There is no place for contempt amongst aviators of any kind, be they airline pilots or PPL's.

I try and see it from both sides (as an airline jockey and FI). WWW's argument is his, not mine, I can only talk about the points I put across.

My argument about aids is to not use D&D like a VOR or GPS, but as the emergency service it really is.

One analogy is, would you call an ambulance because you had a minor cut? No I hope not, they have better things to be worrying about. But if you have cut yourself with a bandsaw and there's claret everywhere, then get them there as fast as possible. It may not be serious, but the uncertainty means you need to ask for help.

If you are a 'little bit lost' i.e pretty much know where you are, but are unable to identify a feature, don't automatically go for 121.5. Think about it. Are you likely to break into a zone? Is there any chance of going into a danger area? Have you even checked wether the danger areas are active? Are you running out of juice? Why are you unsure of your position? Check your DI, Compass, Hdg, MSA, PLOG to see if you just made a silly error.

Are there any features that would allow you to work out your position?

If at that point you still can't work out where you are, then you are lost, Call D&D. Until you've done all you can yourself why do you think you are lost?

Our licences allow us to fly all over the world if we wish, if you are reliant on one service such as D&D to get you out of trouble, then what do you do if you go somewhere that doesn't have the service? D&D are a back up for when you are in trouble. Getting a bit unsure on a navex doesn't really count as 'trouble' in my book. Take some responsiblity and work it out for yourself using the methods that you should have been taught.

IO,

I think GPS is the single best thing that has happened to G/A since the Wright Bros. thought it might be fun try this flying lark.
I personally always have a handheld GPS in my bag and think everyone should know how to use the things properly. an extract from a recent trainingcom.

TRAINING IN THE USE OF GPS GPS systems are becoming commonplace but their misuse is equally common. Flying schools of all types, are encouraged to offer training in the use of GPS. If students wish to fly with GPS, there is an opportunity to teach them to use it properly – don’t ignore it! GPS training should not be at the expense of other syllabus training in navigation and the use of radio aids. For guidance see LASORS (Safety Sense 25) and AIC 93 / 2002 (Pink 41).

I heartily agree with it's sentiments.

On last thing from FujiWhether all these pilots should be lost or nearly lost is a totally different matter. Clearly they should not. Who is to blame - well I am afraid it has to be the FIs. The fact of the matter is get the training right and the problem will go away.
The training of students in some places is not as good as it should be, but PPL's are licenced pilots themselves and it should be their responsibility to ensure that their skills are up to scratch. After all, do you blame driving instructors for some of the idiots that clog up our roads?

People forget over time and if they don't keep up to date and practice the skills required, then it doesn't matter if the best FI in the world has taught you, you will be crap. End of!

[Fuji Abound]

"People forget over time and if they don't keep up to date and practice the skills required, then it doesn't matter if the best FI in the world has taught you, you will be crap. End of!"

.. .. .. and that is why, unlike driving a car, we have biannual check rides.

.. .. .. but with driving a car the insurance companies know it is the new drivers who carry the greatest risk and in the same way I would have a bet with you it is mostly the new pilots who get lost. The difference is that if the trainers were doing their job they might get lost less often.

All said and done I guess we have a pretty active fraternity of PPLs in this country. When a pilot gets his license as we all know he is just starting to learn. He will make mistakes. ATPLs on the other hand have well over a thousand hours. Moreover they have some of the best equipment available to ensure accurate navigation. Sadly their are a few ATPLs who forget we all started out the same way.

I personally think it is a bit sad to be so ready to change the legislation a bit like hooting at the learner driver when he stalls at the cross road.

[High Wing Drifter]

Say Again,

Airlines may not pay tax on fuel, but who pays for ATC in this country? It certainly isn't G/A. Oh that's right, it's paid for by the airlines
ATC exists for the benefit of commercial avaition, not private. So it is just and right that they should pay. In fact, they should pay us for the inconvenience (only kidding). There is the issue of LARS, but then again, without huge amounts of controlled airspace squeezing us into low and/or narrow confines, would we really miss LARS?

Obviously, in many ways private aviation maybe unrecognisable for the worse without commercial aviation, but you get my dift...I hope.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Actually we don't have a very active PPL fraternity at all in this country. I don't have the figures to hand, but the number of hours flown on average is very low compared to places like the states. Couple that to the very few who revalidate their licences as well, you have a picture that isn't too healthy.
The whys and wherefore's aren't the issue here however.

Just because an ATPL has thousands of hours doesn't mean that they don't make mistakes or are still learning. I for one am very aware of the fact that I don't know it all and there are areas that I should increase my knowledge.

If you think a bi-ennial check ride keeps people safe, then you are sadly mistaken. It is nothing but a very quick snapshot that most of the time doesn't even touch on navigation skills.

I still think it is a bit rich to continually blame instructors for all the ills of the G/A world. Most of us do our best and (hopefully) do a good job in equipping people with the basic skills needed to keep themselves alive in their a/c. Keeping the skill level up is however YOUR responsibility. I will only step in when I see something dangerous or hear about some dodgy practices. I am however always available to my club members if they aren't sure of something or want some help, but not being a mind reader I often have to wait for them to ask.

I'm not so sure that it is new pilots who are busting zones etc. It is a real fact that for most pilots who fly very little, that they are at their best when they ready for test, why? Simply because at that stage you are usually flying intensively and as we all know, the more often you fly, the better you generally are. In my experience, new PPL's are often the ones I worry about least, since I am far more likely to know their capabilities and they seem to be more willing to ask for and listen to any advice.

If you have any proof that this is not the case I would be interested to see the figures.

HWD,
Hopefully ATC exists for the benefit of us all, not just the airlines who are picking up most of the tab. Actually I find it worrying that any group should get priority because of financial reasons, rather than on a needs basis. Not having a decent LARS service any more is a travesty and should be reversed at the earliest possible opportunity. Pigs will fly first unless the RAF suddenly have their budget quadrupled!:{

[IO540]

SAS

I personally always have a handheld GPS in my bag

That's not where it should be :O

It should be in the panel, with a decent rooftop aerial. A completely different scenario.

TRAINING IN THE USE OF GPS GPS systems are becoming commonplace but their misuse is equally common

Where is the evidence for the mis-use of GPS? I am sure it happens but why throw out the baby with the bathwater?

In particular, and this is what I was getting at in my slightly daft suggestion earlier, are nav errors caused by misunderstanding of a GPS more common than those done while dead reckoning?

The latter cannot possibly be less error prone but, as I am fond of repeating, doing a CFIT while DR is just bad luck whereas doing a CFIT while on GPS is really poor airmanship :O

We can't have GPS within the existing PPL syllabus because the 45hrs is already too short for most people, so this is a pointless discussion really.... in the meantime, the PPL population is shrinking, partly because people don't come out with the skills they need to go somewhere half interesting.

Anyway, I am off for 2 weeks and 4000 miles, dodging TCUs at FL150 and navigating with GPS as PRIMARY (with VOR/ADF/DME backup on the rare occassions I will find some) the whole time :O

[Say again s l o w l y]

Actually it is pretty rare that I get the thing out of it's bag, unless I'm going somewhere I don't know that well and even then it really is supplementary, but a fantastic back up.

No nav aid is perfect, though GPS is very, very good. It won't stop you from flying into a mountain, just give you the information that should make it impossible for you to be that stupid!

Personally I think that GPS makes navigation incredibly easy and far safer, but I think the point that Pat Lander was making in the Trainingcom is that GPS units can be relatively complex if you have never used one before. Most people only know how to use the absolute basics and don't know the capabilities of these systems.

If you have an out of date database, then you have no warning of airspace changes etc. (as mentioned by Pprune Radar earlier), I think this is one of the things people need to learn about GPS before they become reliant on it. Often people are unaware of the limitations, especially things such as aerial mountings and what happens when you get near sites that put out alot of radio interference.

If you understand the limitations of any system, then you are a much safer pilot than one who blindly believes that the magic box will always keep you out of trouble.

As an aside, we are about to order a Diamond DA-40 and have been warned off the Garmin 1000 kit by the manufacturers, since the a/c will be used for hire. They are worried because people need a 2 day course in how to use the avionics because they are so different to the norm and that people will get into a lot of trouble. It may be a bit of an over-reaction, but I have to respect their view point.

I actually agree with them, even if I am a bit dissappointed myself since I would love to have the glass cockpit version. In fact what we will probably do is that when we get a second one we may have that with all the toys, once our members have got used to using something that is a bit more familiar.

[Fuji Abound]

“Actually we don't have a very active PPL fraternity at all in this country.”

Other than the States and Canada - tell me a country with a more active GA fleet?

“Just because an ATPL has thousands of hours doesn't mean that they don't make mistakes or are still learning.”

In fact indirectly that was the point I sought to make. If ATPLs with 1,000s of hours make mistakes, like accidental calls on guard, have a bit of patience with PPLs who neither have the hours or the kit to reduce their workload.

“If you think a bi-ennial check ride keeps people safe, then you are sadly mistaken. It is nothing but a very quick snapshot that most of the time doesn't even touch on navigation skills.”

I accept your point although I think that if this problem is as bad as made out instructors could include some navigation work in the check ride.

“If you have any proof that this is not the case I would be interested to see the figures.”

Agreed and I was hasty in making this assertion. It would be very interesting to know the background of all these pilots who are so frequently getting lost.

[Say again s l o w l y]

France and Germany.

I have plenty of patience when people make mistakes. If I didn't, then I wouldn't be any good as an instructor! (Some may argue that anyway!!)

Inexperience should not be an excuse for incompetence, in the same way that ignorance of the law makes no difference when in a court. There are basic skills that we all should have. knowing how to read a map and to perform lost procedures are some I feel are pretty essential for any competent pilot. If you can't perform these satisfactorily, then off to D&D you go, just don't try and pretend you aren't lost when in actual fact you are and are probably starting to flap as well.

I agree that Nav should be covered on the bi-ennial, in fact I insist upon it, but this is not mandatory.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

doing a CFIT while DR is just bad luck whereas doing a CFIT while on GPS is really poor airmanship I think I'm missing quite how that was intended to be a joke ... clearly CFIT whilst navigating by DR in VFR is almost impossible, whereas flying into something real in the outside world whilst you're heads down playing computer games sounds like a distinct possibility.

[Fuji Abound]

The UK has around 23,000 PP about .04% of the population, Germany and France both have a similar percentage of the population. That said GA, compared with the US, is in a poor state in Europe.

I couldn’t agree more about inexperience and ignorance. I fully support pilots owning up when lost and agree it should be a rare occurrence.

Pilots should not get lost and if they are with the regularity WWW suggests there is a significant problem. If the problem exists then surely the root cause must be with the training. Yes, pilots are responsible for keeping up their own skill levels but if they are not doing so - why not? Either they are on the whole irresponsible (possible:D ) or the initial and re-occurrence training is not instilling in them a regime for keeping up their own skill levels. I am not bashing FI, simply debating how the problem might be fixed.

I suppose there is a third possibility which is that as a whole private pilots just do not fly enough to consistently ensure they will not got lost. If that is so, maybe we should accept the problem, BUT I would still argue the solution is in persuading pilots to own up when genuinely lost not claim it is a practice fix, rather than to make it illegal to ask for a practice fix unless there is a FI aboard. After all, however you describe them, their will still be the same number of calls to D and D unless their really are huge numbers of pilots using the service to make genuine training fixes! (which again if it is causing the problem suggested then FIs should persuade pilots not to make so many training fixes!)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

"Pan Pan Pan Golf Blah Lost, Last known position Nottingham maintaining 3000 feet QNH".

"London Centre, this is Golf Blah, requesting a training fix maintaining 3000 feet QNH".

Can't see the difference meself. One is going to get his "Pan acknowledged" which will take 0.89 extra seconds. But then he's also going to get extra goodies such as beware of Glider Site 2 miles in your 2 o'clock and also the MSA. He's also going to be telling the truth.

You either know your position or don't and therefore you are either Lost or you aren't. You are not rehearsing nor teaching an r/t procedure and therefore are in no need of a training fix.

Commercial aviation is a vital export earner and net importer of wealth and jobs to UK Plc so please lets not have the Sunday Cessna brigade pontificating on issues of fuel taxation. And will you ladies get off being so offended by the terms horse****. It was merely a deftly used mildest of expletives deployed to harness an enthusiastic response on what is a fairly full topic. Don't take PPRuNe too seriously for heavens sake!

Cheers

WWW

[Say again s l o w l y]

Actually I think the issue of fuel taxation is one of the major safety debates that there is at the moment. Why is flying so expensive? One of the major reasons is fuel costs, mostly made up of duty and VAT.
We all agree that people who fly more often are generally safer than those who fly occasionally.

So if we cut the cost, people fly more often, therefore G/A gets safer and more competent.
Now how do we lobby government?!

In France and Germany, there may be a similar amount of pilots, but I'll wager they fly a bit more than we do here. Overall I have often felt there is a different attitude in Europe to light aircraft and in general it is positive, rather than here where the BAA and other esteemed bodies seem hell bent on making life as difficult as possible.

Unfortunately I would have to say that many pilots (leaving out licence types here) can sometimes have a bit of an ego problem. I have certainly come across it, especially when I started teaching as a 22 year old. Invariably middle aged succesful business men who weren't used to having some young spod telling them what to do! Battles of wills were often inevitable. I'm glad to say I think I won them all though!

Maybe my view has been skewed by these experiences, but many don't seem to have the whit to work out what they don't know, let alone spend the time keeping their skills up.One way around this is to get rid of the biennial flight with an instructor and make everyone do a full skills test again. Not likely to be popular though. (except from the examiners financial point of view!)

[Final 3 Greens]

Can't see the difference meself. For those skilled with a hammer, every problem is a nail.

Time to stop playing your one note guitar WWW, you don't have a lot of credibility on this thread following your ludicrous claims and failure to provide any justification for them.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Final 3 Greens: On a thread called 'Training Fixes' you'll forgive me for sticking to the one note rather than digressing into a symphony of fuel duty, GPS naviagation and PPL training standards... Or maybe you won't.

My ludicruous claim is that many Training Fix calls should be Lost calls. That the overuse of 121.5 in the UK FIR is leading to more incidents of Guard not being monitored and this is to the detriment of flight safety.

The result of my claims is a communication with CHIRP and the CAA SRG for this to be looked at.

Cheers

WWW

ps And Practice Pans can be shown the door as well unless with an instructor.

[Final 3 Greens]

yada, yada, yada,,,,,,,,,, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Flik Roll]

Does it matter if its a training fix or lost call? at the end of the day they are still using the same frequency!

[Fuji Abound]

Flik Roll

I think that is exactly the point that WWW just does not want to grasp.

So called training fixes will become I am actually lost calls - no change in the numbers there then, and presumably the few totally genuine training fixes will become even fewer so not much change there.

So after all this debating and writing to CHIRP and the CAA all that has happened is we have just called training fixes by a different name - but FAR FAR worse there may be some pilots who feel guilty about now say they are really lost, so don’t bother, bust some airspace and increase everyone’s work load never mind the safety implications. Yeah, we know they shouldn’t feel guilty, but it is no ground pretending the human condition does not exist - that is just nuts.

Sorry to go about it, but why oh why cant we recognise that these sort of problems are down to training. I am not blaming the instructors for the sake of it, but in my own experience I just don’t think instructors do enough to instill in pilots sound navigational skills or the need to recognise they are responsible for their own ongoing training. When was the last time you did a navex on your biannual and the instructor suggested you go and do a bit more currency training after your performance?

[Final 3 Greens]

Oh no, don't provoke the Wonky Welsh Windbag, we'll never hear the end of it. :}

[Say again s l o w l y]

Fuji,
I do hope that people won't stop calling for help if they need it. For the final time, that is not what WWW and I have been objecting to. It is people calling and pretending they aren't lost when in reality they are. Am I alone in hoping that the pilots of this country aren't so idiotic as to not be able to admit mistakes? If that is the case, then ban them all! there is no place for egotism in an a/c cockpit. Especially when things are going wrong. Confidence yes, Ego no.

If D&D themselves don't see a need to change procedures, then nor do I.

It's funny, but I mentioned tis thread to my other half, who is a non-flyer and not particularily fussed by it all. Her reaction?
"Just make it so that people can only call for a training fix when there is an FI onboard." As I've said before, I don't agree with that, but it's always interesting how someone unconnected with the minutae of an issue percieves it.

Which Wonky Welsh Windbag are you talking about? I've been accused of being one of those a few times myself.

[Final 3 Greens]

SAS

Didn't know you were Welsh and the alliteration holds a clue ;)

[slim_slag]

SAS,

Your contributions to this thread are well thought out and stand out above several others, but this thread is not about GA pilots pretending they aren't lost when they are. I see it as being about GA pilots responding to yet another ill thought out threat to reduce services that UK GA pilots receive. Nobody has said it's OK to lie.

[Fuji Abound]

Say again slowly


It is sometime a struggle to know how much of this is tongue in cheek. Whether or not it is for the final time, it doesn’t mean your point is correct.

I sense everyone agrees, including you and WWW, that training fixes disguising lost fixes are not a good idea, but you cannot really believe that was WWWs arguement.

"I'd make it an offence for anyone without an FI Rating to ask for a training fix. In fact I am writing to the CAA SRG today to ask for that to become a UK rule."

That seems to me a pretty clear and understandable statement of intent. Bluntly I disagree with the statement and the intent.

In any event the solution does not solve the problem to which you refer. As I said earlier the number of calls will presumably stay much the same (one every 90 seconds), so WWW will still be annoyed, and to make matters worse there will now be a few pilots who don’t want to admit to being lost - the consequences of which pale into insignificance with WWW being a bit annoyed.

I would not normally take such a vociferous stance but how can we possibly support a proposed change to legislation which would seem to be based on unreliable information (a call every 90 seconds) and which too boot would not seem to solve the perceived problem.

[Romeo Romeo]

How about we call it a 'position fix'. Then it can be used for either training or as confirmation of position. A multi-purpose phrase which encompases both training and non-training scenarios - a bit like go-arounds as suggested by Fuji.

[High Wing Drifter]

SAS,
It is people calling and pretending they aren't lost when in reality they are. Am I alone in hoping that the pilots of this country aren't so idiotic as to not be able to admit mistakes?
The bit I fail to grasp, is why does it make any difference if they pretend to be lost or actually are? Who cares if they are trying to save face? That isn't my idea of lying, which I would prefer to align with deviousness, not embarressment. Also, being afraid to admit to mistakes doesn't make you an idiot. I would wager that the only pilots who could grudgingly admit they really have messed up big time is a narrow band between the most unconfident and the most confident. Also, it has occured to me that it is called a "Training Fix" to not discourage people from calling sooner than later - is a little bit of psycology beyond the CAA?

[Say again s l o w l y]

It's funny, but I've always been the first to admit to my mistakes. I don't see them as a failing unless they happen over and over.
One of the reasons I am totally open with my students and members so that they can see that I have had my fair share of mistakes and problems. Hopefully this means they will be more forthcoming with me if they do have problems, rather than worrying if I'd bite their head off if they admit to any stuff up.

Is psychology beyond our friends at the belgrano? Not sure if it is, but the whole point is that we should all be adult enough to know when we've ar*ed up. D&D aren't some big scarey organisation who will come down on you like a ton of bricks if you call saying you are lost. They are an extremely professional organisation who are there to help you, not punish you.
You aren't going to get kicking from anyone for calling for help. It is the right thing to do and that's it.

The reasons why people do something aren't really the debate, swallowing a bit of pride and realising that you aren't Biggles may be a bit of a kick to your pride, but what's more important. Doing the right thing and asking for help or trying to muddle out of it and potentially causing more problems down the line?

If you've reached the point where you realise you are lost. Most people will be starting to panic somewhat. We all know that you don't generally make good decisions when you are panicking, so why not help yourself as much as possible by getting the D&D service working for you properly. It will take a massive load off your mind straight away knowing that you're in safe hands.

As said before, I agree with WWW sentiments about not abusing the D&D service, but I cannot agree with the idea of only allowing FI's or P/UT's to ask for training fixes. Having a pratice every so often is fine by my book as long as that is exactly what it is. A practice not pretending to be something else.

A bit of noise on 121.5 is fine sometimes, it lets me know the box is still working! It doesn't bug me too much hearing calls, it's the "G-blah-de-blah good morning" whilst we're screaming through the localiser that get my goat!

[Fuji Abound]

"G-blah-de-blah good morning"

Now there is another point with which I agree totally! I wish so many pilots didn’t have to share their life history with us.

I think this thread is of great interest because it has become quite a detailed analysis of the way in which we react and the factors that influence us.

There are those who are "happy" to admit their mistakes, and the greater majority who I suspect are less happy. I think it is a hall mark of the professional pilot, and particularly the commercial pilot, that they are more willing to admit mistakes that the private pilot. Is this so because there has been much emphasis on the dangers of taking an ego into the workplace?

Why are the greater majority less happy to admit mistakes? Perhaps it says something about our society when in many work places admission of mistakes is seen as a weakness or is it society has just become less tolerant of small mistakes. (A speeding ticket for being 4 mph over the limit for maybe only a few hundred yards of a 30 mph zone). Perhaps our reaction to these pressures is that we resist admitting we are wrong?

I think safety has to recognise the human condition. Not a lot is to be gained by saying pilots should own up to being lost if the evidence is they are more likely to blunder on rather than admit their mistake. (and I use the word "if" carefully because I have no evidence to support my contention).

If I am correct perhaps Romeo Romeo has it - why get hung up on "forcing" a pilot to admit he is lost. A service is available to enable a pilot to confirm his position and I bet in the vast majority of cases a pilot will only seek to confirm his position because he feels he needs to.

No one, including fortunately even WWW, has suggested that when a pilot admits he is lost he should be penalised in some way. (although you could imagine the CAA might write to him suggesting some currency training would be in order!).

Hopefully, if a training fix doesn’t sort the problem out, and our pilot is dreadfully lost he will still have the sense to turn his position fix into a "help, I need vectors!" and as someone else said D and D probably have a good idea when a pilot is really getting into problems. In other words when we start to get really scared we will admit almost anything!

All of this doesn’t really solve the problem as to why people are getting lost so often. I don’t accept it is every 90 seconds but I do accept it occurs more often than it should. Training must have something to do with it and I cant help feeling the opportunity of reviewing navigation at the bi-annual is often not taken. I think pilots are also more conscious of the need to know their position more accurately that in the past because of the amount of controlled airspace, danger areas, notam restrictions etc that exist and the "threat" that uninvited incursions will be treated very seriously. Perhaps pilots on the whole fly less hours than they use to but I don’t have the evidence to support this. As others have said I agree that the powers that be have been very slow to recognise the impact of new technology - I personally think the use of a moving map GPS should be a requirement of the PPL syllabus.

As always it is only by properly understanding the problem that solutions can be found - a somewhat simple statement that seems to be all to often ignored. As I have already said I get vociferous when the knee jerk reaction (from people who should know better) is to legislate to solve a problem without apparently seeking to understand the problem and what the effect of simply changing the legislation is likely to be. In this instance I think it would be less calls to D and D, but more incursions and more pilots getting themselves into serious problems. Please WWW don't do it, don't suggest the legislation be changed , find a better way.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

opportunity of reviewing navigation at the bi-annual Yeah, but, if you've been doing any flying at all during the two years then you'll recognise everything within 15 minutes flying time of base anyway, which is as far as you'll get in a one hour flight some of which has to be spent on circuits, so there's not a lot of scope for challenging nav there.

[BEagle]

Rather a lot of very silly comments on this thread, I regret to say.

Firstly, the Training Fix is a method for practising D&D procedures for pilots and D&D personnel alike. If it has degenerated into a navigational technique used by those who won't admit they're actually lost, then that is an abuse of the system. It also throws doubt on the personal integrity of the pilot; if he won't admit to being lost, what else won't he admit to...?

If airliner-drivers are genuinely inconvenienced by excessive use of 121.5, then perhaps CHIRP action should be taken.

There is no mandatory content for the 2-yearly training flight with an instructor. FI and pilot should decide between them what they wish to practise. It is not a US-style 'Biennial Flight Review', nor should it be termed 'a biennial' as that will lead to ambiguity.

The CFE has stated that an element of visual navigation shall be required as part of a SEP Class Rating Revalidation LPC or Renewal LST (Section 3A). The extent of the navigation exercise is at the Examiner's discretion and should take into account the recent experience of the pilot.

My overall opinion is that WWW is essentially correct, but hasn't made his case particularly well. The bottom line:

A Training Fix is not a valid navigational technique, nor is it appropriate for pilots who are genuinely lost who should advise D&D accordingly. It is purely a method for practising the relevant D&D procedures

[Final 3 Greens]

BEagle CAP413 saysPilots who do not wish to carry out a practice emergency but only wish to confirm their position may request a ‘Training Fix’ on 121.5 MHz. This ‘Training Fix’ is secondary in importance to actual emergency calls but takes precedence over practice emergency calls in the event of simultaneous incidents. I do not think that this clear and unabiguous statement requires any spin or clarification.

I disagree with your comment that WWW is essentially correct since his case is built on ludicrous assertions for which he has provided no supporting data when challenged.

What you are saying is analagous to someone passing a maths exam by guessing the right answers and you may recall that our school masters were as interested in the integrity of the underpinning data and thinking as they were in the result.

[BEagle]

Interestingly, the RAF Flight Information Handbook states:

'A secondary task is to provide a navigational 'training fix' service to pilots at flying training units.'

i.e., to practise the use of D&D without the need for a full Practice Pan call.

The CAP413 interpretation is obviously different to this; it originates from the time a few years ago when the revamped fixing system was introduced and knowledge of areas of coverage and operator proficiency training was needed.

Lost pilots using D&D responsibly are to be commended; dishonest use of a 'training fix' is merely crying 'Wolf!'.

Sorry - but your last sentence has lost me......

[Fuji Abound]

"if he won't admit to being lost, what else won't he admit to...?"

Define lost?



If all these pilots will not admit they are lost, why do you think changing the law will persuade them to admit they are lost? If they do admit they are lost what have you achieved? Less calls?
Less pilots blundering on? I dont know, but I wish you would answer the question rather than regreting the "silly" comments. Frankly it would be a bit silly to end up with less calls and more airspace infrigments.

Why doesnt anyone answer these questions?



"It is not a US-style 'Biennial Flight Review', nor should it be termed 'a biennial' as that will lead to ambiguity.

Why does this point keep being made to death. Most of us have been through three UK reviews. Most of us have never done an American Biennial or have any idea what is involved (although I do mine at the same time as my UK biennial). Most of us know full well what is involved. I doubt there is any confusion at all now. It takes place every two years - if you want to call it a "two year trainng flight" thats fine by me. In any event the content isnt so very different - oh and I know you can tecnically fail one, the other you cant - great, but I think we have got to grips with that too. Hang on I am confused because they do a driving test in the US and we do one, now which one am I doing :confused: :confused:



"you'll recognise everything within 15 minutes flying time of base anyway"


You can of course insist on precisely an hour but would you? The FI says something like I think you might like to do a review of navigation, and we need to do three landings, and if its OK I will throw in a PFL en route and a little bit of upper air work. Here are three or four land marks in a local circuit - navigate to them accurately - no GPS on this occasion. An hour and a half tops. You might know the local landmarks but I bet the instructor will still have a reasonable idea if the mark one eyeball is up to speed??

It is as if some of us have a hang up about the word lost.

I think I am just north of Farnborough by about five miles, but in view of the closeness of Heathrow I need to be sure. Can I have a fix please? Are you lost?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Final 3 Greens - I don't have 'data' because unsuprisingly I don't keep a log of all the 121.5 chatter heard on a hazy summer weekend in the UK. But a call every 90 seconds or something in that order is true for certain periods on certain days. 4pm on a hazy Sunday afternoon would be likely. I offer nothing more than anecdotal observation.

People are starting to put it into pre take off briefs that Gaurd will be ignored or turned down on departure as it'll be chocca today. I do the same - its sound airmanship.

I fly light aircraft myself you know. I have about 18000hrs Group A (harking back I know Beags) and will have my own aircraft one of these days.

I've sent a goodly number of students into the skies on their early navexs and they've all been able to confidently use 121.5 so I've probably performed more training fixes and a practice pans than most of you.

I've also been grateful for D&D saving both me and several of my students from being horrible lost. I know that feeling.

Still, aviation is doubling every 15 years, the role of Guard has become more important and so perhaps it is time to look at how it has come to be used by all.

Cheers

WWW

Fuji - getting rid of practice pans without an FI would clean up the airwaves somewhat. Changing training fix to lost wouldn\'t but it would at least be:

a) Honest.

b) Indicative to the CAA of the need to improve training syllabus and maps.

c) Take no more airtime that a proper Lost call. Milliseconds anway.

d) More useful to the LOST person (if you can\'t point to me on the map where you ar then you are lost as there is no such thing as unsure of position) as D&D will have the correct take on the situation.

Any issues regards psychology of talking to D&D need to be addressed during training.

------

Now, how about a debate about raising the minimum currency hours required to keep you license current? I don\'t think the present requirements are enough.

If you do less than 25hrs flying a year I don\'t think you should be allowed to keep you PPL - you\'re likely a danger to other sky users. Perhaps if you have over 500hrs TT this could be reduced but certainly not before.

Cheers

WWW

[Megaton]

18,000 hrs Gp A? How old were you when you started flying?

[Fuji Abound]

"Fuji - getting rid of practice pans without an FI would clean up the airwaves somewhat. Changing training fix to lost wouldn't but it would at least be:

a) Honest.

b) Indicative to the CAA of the need to improve training syllabus and maps.

c) Take no more airtime that a proper Lost call. Milliseconds anway.

d) More useful to the LOST person (if you can't point to me on the map where you ar then you are lost as there is no such thing as unsure of position) as D&D will have the correct take on the situation.

Any issues regards psychology of talking to D&D need to be addressed during training."



All of that makes a great deal of sense and is a rather different take on the problem. My only arguement would now be do b), d) and the bit about "any issues .. .. .." first, which I think would go a long way to solve the problem.



"If you do less than 25hrs flying a year I don't think you should be allowed to keep you PPL"

Ducks very low:D :D :D :D

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Istarted flying when I was 7 months old and got a Tiger Moth for my second birthday, err, ummm, actually I meant 1,800 hours ;)

Cheers

WWW

ps Its a nice day - why aren't you two off flying?!?

[Megaton]

Six sector lates :( Time to browse the web, read the newspapers and have breakfast before strapping the mighty Dash to my backside for the rest of the day!

[Final 3 Greens]

WWWI offer nothing more than anecdotal observation Then why dont you use the word "hypothesise" or a similar caveat, rather than making an assertion, at which stage I will start to take your comments seriously.

[Fuji Abound]

I am doing my two yearly annual flight review today or tomorrow (:O Beagle). I do hope the FI doesnt read PPrune - always use a GPS myself, wouldnt have much of a clue where I was without it.

[Final 3 Greens]

Not wishing to engage in threqd drift, but having done several FAA biennials, the airwork portion was quite similar to the UK experience.

The FAA biennial also includes & hour ground work, revisiting airspace rules and other relevant info - very useful.

[Say again s l o w l y]

There is another thread on the Instructors forum, where someone has accused FI's of being pedants. In terms of phraseology I think BEagle has proved that it may be true!;)

Maybe a way around this situation would be for another frquency to be used for training fixes rather than 121.5. I'm sure the technology is there for D&D to still answer the call, but not have it broadcast on guard. We'd all be happy then.

Time to go flying, I'll try not to get lost!

[Final 3 Greens]

dishonest use of a 'training fix' is merely crying 'Wolf!'. No, its actually the opposite, like calling "sheep."Maybe a way around this situation would be for another frquency to be used for training fixes rather than 121.5. I'm sure the technology is there for D&D to still answer the call, but not have it broadcast on guard. We'd all be happy then. What a good idea.

[FullyFlapped]

Why not simply use another frequency for "training" fixes ? Great - and simple - idea.

But while we're at it, why not use another frequency for the airline jock who's spending ages moaning on the Tower frequency about his clearance, or his push-back, or his parking-position etc, when I'm on (by now) extremely bloody short finals and looking for clearance to land ?

Or how about one for the heavy driver who spent ages chatting to Stansted the other day about his crap day, the weather etc ? Good job no-one needed a LARS or anything ... oh, wait a minute, they did ...

Or ..... etc.

What ? You mean it's not true that "ATPL" stands for "All Transmissions Precise (and) Legal" ?

I'm in a state of shock ...

FF :ok:

[ShyTorque]

Been away for a few days but I note the same argument is still going round and round!

The main issue seems to be not one of frequency clutter but of a perceived lack of integrity of a student pilot who might wish to confirm his position by using an established procedure!

I flew 24 sectors over the last three days. We heard one practice PAN from a Coventry student who correctly used the facility for a position fix from D&D. However, on every sector we heard a number of airline pilots incorrectly calling on 121.5, mostly inadvertent, some of them answered by other pilots, some of them by D&D.

However, the most blatant, almost unbelievable example of misuse we heard occurred this morning. A "Speedbird" callsign (I have the flight number) made contact on 121.5 then called a company callsign over to 123.45.

This goes against the CAA mandate (NOTAM'ed) that the latter frequency is NOT to be used in UK airspace for air to air informal use as it is allocated to at least one authorised user.

We followed them over to that frequency out of curiosity and were amazed and apalled to hear a two way chat about where someone's wife was going today (it was Amsterdam, apparently).

The integrity of students is the least of our worries if so-called professionals are doing this sort of thing. :rolleyes:

BTW Beagle, Don't forget that the RAF's training procedures were designed for the use of 243.0 MHz, not 121.5, so it is irrelevant to the argument!

[Fuji Abound]

"Final 3 Greens - I don't have 'data' because unsuprisingly I don't keep a log of all the 121.5 chatter heard on a hazy summer weekend in the UK. But a call every 90 seconds or something in that order is true for certain periods on certain days. 4pm on a hazy Sunday afternoon would be likely. I offer nothing more than anecdotal observation."

WWW has made his point and accepted he over cooked the data. However as SkyTorque has now said together with the experience of a couple of others of us I think we are left wondering how serious this problem really is.

Maybe there are the very odd occasions when the weather starts as good VMC, it is a weekend so more are flying and unexpectedly and un-forecast detiriates. Maybe it is on those odd occasions D and D is swamped.

I wonder, given all the comment, and now some data, whether WWW will agree he may have slightly lost his way on this occasion and withdraw his letter asking to have the legislation changed and withdraw his report to CHIRP?

After all if you want us all to own up when we are lost so :D .. .. ..

[Whirlybird]

I've been a way for a few days, and haven't time to do more than skim the myriad posts.

But one thing still puzzles me. WHY do people not want to tell D & D they're lost?

Yes, the meaning of lost can vary, depending on the circumstances. Up in North Wales, heading west, no idea exactly where I am as can see nothing but hills, but I'll know when I reach the coast and have some decent ground features. Not lost. Five miles from Heathrow and don't know really precisely where I am. Lost.

And in that second case, please explain in words of one syllable just why you wouldn't want to get on the radio and say so?

[englishal]

.....Because I'd pull the GPS from my bag.......;)

All this talk of VDF fixes seems very WW2 to me. Why don't all pilots have a £100 GPS, and why doesn't the syllabus change to allow instructors to show students how to take a GPS fix, and plot the position on a chart?

[Fuji Abound]

"But one thing still puzzles me. WHY do people not want to tell D & D they're lost?"

My suggestion previously was:

"Why are the greater majority less happy to admit mistakes? Perhaps it says something about our society when in many work places admission of mistakes is seen as a weakness or is it society has just become less tolerant of small mistakes. (A speeding ticket for being 4 mph over the limit for maybe only a few hundred yards of a 30 mph zone). Perhaps our reaction to these pressures is that we resist admitting we are wrong?

I think safety has to recognise the human condition. Not a lot is to be gained by saying pilots should own up to being lost if the evidence is they are more likely to blunder on rather than admit their mistake. (and I use the word "if" carefully because I have no evidence to support my contention). "


"Yes, the meaning of lost can vary"

That was exactly my point which you have illustrated so well. One pilot's definition of lost in a given situation may be different from anothers. Someone else suggested "lost" means you cant point to precisely where you are on the map. I am not sure most of us would agree with that?

[slim_slag]

No one has said it is right to lie. No one has said they will not call D & D for aid if they are lost.

All done using words of one syllable.

One cannot demand a change in regulations or make tabloid journalist type claims of a flight safety issue based upon anecdotal evidence. What next. Do we encourage our children to smoke because my great-uncle smoked fifty a day and lived until he was a hundred and ten? Do we ground an airline because one muppet gets through a command course? Of course not. Definitely the solution is technology. GPS is getting better and just needs to be embraced by some regulators, and it wasn't that long ago when you had five people on the flight deck. Voice frequency clutter will be less of an issue if most communications are via datalink, give it time.

[Fuji Abound]

Interesting to see this subject has been covered in September's edition of a popular magazine beginning with P (in case that counts as advertsing:O )

It is interesting that the "expert" FIs seem to support practising calls to D and D and dont get "hung up" at all about admissions of being lost. Whilst I would say this, I thought they have the balance exactly right.

It still puzzles me why some of us seem to have this huge thing about pilots saying they are "lost". You call D and D either because you are lost, a bit lost, or want a training fix. I suspect it is all pretty irrelevant to them, they tell you where you are, and point you in the right direction if you need that as well.

[ShyTorque]

Well said, Fuji. Long may that continue.

And long may airline pilots learn how to operate their radios correctly, too. :hmm:

[IO540]

Say again s l o w l y

Back after a while, just read your post about the DA40 avionics.

I'd say a 2 day course should be mandatory not only for the more integrated "glass cockpits" but for anything as complex as a GNS430/530/KLN94 etc.

The glass cockpit just integrates the stuff into one display unit.

I suppose that nothing happens because people learn it as they go along. That's what I did, but it wasted a lot of time.

I did a Honeywell GPS training course once but very little of it rubbed off, because the instructor just worked through the features, rather than how to use them for real IFR flight. And some of it one isn't ever likely to use, e.g. the specific features for automated sequencing along a GPS approach, or flying back course localisers.

These debates will run and run, because GPS can never be included in the 45hr PPL.

[Pierre Argh]

Wow what a lot has been said about this... one of the oldest flying dits going. I've been involved in aviation for 30yrs, and it was one of the first stories I was told... along with the pilot on a solo navex who taxied out of sight behind the hangar, and watching his stop-watch reported back in the radio over each turning point on time... then taxied back into dispersal.

[Lowtimer]

Christ on a bike how hard is it to dial 121.5 and say the words "Pan Pan Pan I am lost"?!?!

It's not necessarily always for training pilots. Over on the Fl*er forums, D&D is actively soliciting practice pans and training fixes to help bed down a new guy at their end.
http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=17053

[IO540]

Too many people using a GPS and not getting lost, evidently :O :O :O

[vetflyer]

Sorry been a long day , on the one hand WWW complaining about TF by PPL and on the other D&D pleading for work!

What is a mere mortal PPL to do ?

Why is WWW so vexed when D&D are chilled!

:confused:

[Keef]

A nice, simple answer.

D&D say they want MORE traffic for their trainees to practice with. They also say they get an average of fewer than 9 training fixes/practice pans a day. They should know - they keep the statistics.

It's just a pity that all 9 come in a rush and in Wales, I suppose.

[ShyTorque]

And how many inadvertent calls, on the wrong box, from First Officers? :suspect:

[Say again s l o w l y]

On behalf of all F/O's, that should read "how many times has the Captain stuffed it.";)