Aviate, Navigate, communicate

[Genghis the Engineer]

Had an interesting incident yesterday, nothing bent and nobody hurt, but some useful learning points. It might be worth a CHIRP report in the fullness of time, but at the moment I'll share it with you fellows.


To set the scene, I'd done a long but enjoyable afternoon's aerial sightseeing, which at this point had amounted to about 3 hours of navigation around SE England. Whilst a little murky in places, with a less than distinct horizon, visibility was mostly 10km+ and my passengers were well behaved.

The last leg of the trip was Beachy head - Selsey Bill - Popham (two straight lines, more or less). It was late afternoon, and I'd made a call to Shoreham just before Beachy Head, who had passed me details of their local traffic and asked me to let them know before changing to my next frequency. My routing was parallel with the coast but about 5nm out to sea, the reason being that Shoreham was having it's annual airshow, and I needed to keep clear of that airspace.

No problems so far, I passed safely, and as I passed the airshow closed. At this point however the controller at Shoreham became clearly severely overloaded as she had to handle multiple traffic either trying to get into Shoreham, or get out in the few tens of minutes immediately after the show ended. I tried for about 5 minutes to get a call in to change frequency, but was unable.

So, as I was now skirting Solent Zone, I changed to their frequency, called, asked for flight information, and informed them that I had been able to establish 2-way with Shoreham to hand-off. On this, Solent instructed me to return to Shoreham and try again to get a hand-off.

So, flipped frequencies again, and tried again for another 2-3 minutes with no success. Eventually, I gave up and returned to Solent, re-established a FIS, and informed them that I'd still been unable to achieve 2-way with Shoreham (to be honest, by this time, I was probably too far away).

At this, Solent agreed to contact Shoreham on the landline (fair enough, if a bit late in the day), and then informed me that I had inadvertently entered their zone, and instructed a roughly 90° heading change to leave it.


This all got sorted out within the next minute or two, and apart from a slightly raised stress level on the part of myself and the controller, no damage was done. However, let's examine what happened here:-

- My initial attempts to contact Shoreham for a handover had raised my personal stress levels somewhat, degrading my concentration a bit.

- Being told by Solent (who, relatively speaking, were not busy) to return to Shoreham's frequency, then my frustration at still being unable to establish 2-way raised it further.

- This, and my concentration on communication, degraded my concentration on navigation, which should have been a higher priority. This, and the poor visual horizon, meant that I allowed my course to drift into Solent's zone. (Basically, I'd stopped navigating for a minute or two, and failed to appreciate a significant drift of heading). As a result I caused an infringment.


There isn't a villain of the piece, but two people could have done a better job than they did.

(1) Firstly and most importantly, I shouldn't have allowed a communication problem to degrade my navigation. I should probably have refused Solent's request to return to Shoreham frequency (look, if I didn't achieve 2-way first time, it's hardly surprising I didn't when I was further away and they were just as busy).

(2) Secondly, the Solent controller should have appreciated that (a) Shoreham is **** busy and hard to get a word in edgeways at the best of times, and (b) if a pilot reports an inability to establish 2-way with another field he means it, so don't make life harder for him than necessary - this is what the landline is for.


In the end, no damage done, but a valuable lesson learned for me and (I hope) a controller as well about airmanship.

G

N.B. Of course I may just be making all of this up, and this is an anonymous forum, so I'm sure nobody anywhere would be enough of a a*****e to make trouble for anybody over a post on Pprune.

[Chilli Monster]

The problem with a CHIRP is it is totally anonymous, yet this is very definitely a unit (person?) specific problem.

It's accepted that if this happens and you make a request to "pass it on over the landline" then these things happen and you do it. The chances are (though I don't know for definite) that Solent will have a direct line or at least speed dial to Shoreham.

Speaking as an ATCO sorry, but black mark against the person concerned.

[flower]

I would make the phone call myself in that situation, there would have to be a reason why the Pilot was unable to advise the change of frequencies to Shoreham, and then to subsequently have words as the pilot inadvertently entered their CAS does seem a little churlish.

Of course there are always two sides to every story, but given the same circumstances , as an ATCO I would have ensured we let Shoreham know of your change of frequency.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I would make the phone call myself in that situation, there would have to be a reason why the Pilot was unable to advise the change of frequencies to Shoreham, and then to subsequently have words as the pilot inadvertently entered their CAS does seem a little churlish.
To be fair, the words were essentially "you have entered my airspace, turn immediately onto heading 090 to exit". He was perfectly polite about it.

G

[Final 3 Greens]

Ghengis

All credit to you for sharing your incident so that we can learn from it.

It shows how easily things can run away (albeit no harm done) when human factors intervene.

[RotorHorn]

Well done Ghengis. Full marks for the post.

You've taught me another option for what I can do when I can't get 2 way with a station I'm trying to leave... prior to this its not been unknown for me to just go around in circles (well orbits) waiting for a lookin...!

And sharing experiences and learning from them is what I think is Pprune is all about.

Well done!!!

RH

:ok: :ok: :ok:

[drauk]

What is the likelihood that anything would come of not telling the first station (Shoreham in this case) that you're changing frequency? Obviously it is good airmanship and polite and 'generally a good idea' but surely they'd not send out a search party if you didn't do it? Presumably it happens all the time. So why were Solent so insistent?

[BEagle]

Good that you publicised this incicdent.

If you can't clear from the frequency you were on, it becomes rather like something in the 'rear view mirror'. The priority being to think about what's ahead.

Given the exact circumstances again, I would recommend:

1. Call the Solent controller and obtain the relevant clearance.
2. When (and only when) you've received that, advise that you weren't able to clear with Shoreham, so would he please do so for you.

If you are the sole licenced FRTO in the aeroplane, there is just you and one, maybe 2 radios. On the ground there will be several people and plenty of phones. Don't think twice about requeting that the ATCO gets an assistant to advise Shoreham.

I recall routeing near Solent once - and decided to call them to advise. I merely received a very curt "C/S, Standby". So I did, but continued on my way within 0.5 mile of their airspace. When they finally decided to speak to me, they were somewhat taken aback to be told "I was just going to advise you that I was going to be flying quite close to the edge of your airspace. Which I have been. But not now, so thank you and good-bye. Squawking7000toenroutegoodday"

[IO540]

FWIW I often have to go the next frequency if the last one is too busy to get the call in. Also Shoreham is occassionally so busy on the radio that one cannot make the call for anything up to 10 mins. And Solent often don't like providing a service to GA; I usually find them pleasant enough and they give an FIS but they get rid of you as quickly as they can; they have a lot of traffic with Southampton.

[EGTC]

I think you did the right thing changing frequencies, I'm suprised solent weren't more helpful initially. It can be stressful not being able to get a word in on the radio.

Last week when I was flying solo circuits (I'm still a student) the tower reported a cessna joining on base, and I was on late downwind at the time. I was looking and looking but couldn't see the damn cessna so I turned base a bit early just incase, then I tried to ask the tower about the cessnas position but the radio was busy. There was some guy on the radio recieving a long IFR clearance and 4 times he wouldn't read back correctly, so the controller kept repeating it, it was stressful not being able to ask the tower. Eventually I saw the cessna flying parrallel to me on a wider base leg, I wasn't sure if they'd seen me and I didn't want them to turn final into my path, still I couldn't inform the tower. In the end once I'd turned final I managed to tell the tower I was visual, just so the cessna knew where I was, as they were probably expecting to join infront of me. But it was very frustrating not being able to make radio contact.

[egbt]

Beagle (or other pro)

Would your recommendation be the same if you were receiving a LARS service? For example:

A while ago it took me a long time to terminate a RIS from Farnbourgh due to heavy traffic and poor r/t reception and ended up calling Benson very late for a MATZ clearance.

The result was that I was routed west about, having to dodge the Harwell restricted zone and the Didcot towers. Unfortunately I could not go over the MATZ and stay VFR and was not going to “bust” the MATZ if the controller (for what ever reason) was telling me to stay clear.

Genghis good thread:ok:

[BEagle]

1. I would only ask for RIS if I really needed it due to poor (but legal) VFR conditions.

2. In normal VFR conditions, I wouldn't be overly concerned at penetrating the Benson MATZ without advising them; I would, of course, remain clear of their 2000ft/ 2.5 mile ATZ.

Recently I was flying to White Waltham with a student and called for a MATZ penetration. Whilst in the MATZ, I asked for the London QNH as WW is under the LTMA - as indeed is Benson. Benson's reply to this request for information? "Remain on Benson QFE"....:rolleyes:

Incidentally, I asked AOPA in Oct 2003 to investigate why Harwell's P106 still exists. Harwell is now a Business Park and the reactors were decommissioned 15 years ago. I'm still waiting for an answer!

[B Fraser]

I asked AOPA in Oct 2003 to investigate why Harwell's P106 still exists.

I wonder why a nearby "disused airfield marked for navigation purposes only" isn't. :uhoh: Mr Fraser was one very shocked balloon pilot who was practicing hedge-hopping & low approaches and crossed an innocent looking fence at the top of a hill expecting to see this navigation landmark. It was day 2 of the Gulf War :suspect:

A phone call later that evening that began "Good evening sir... were you the pilot of G-B***" thankfully resulted in no further action.


Back to the topic... or at least where it's going... is it acceptable to break into a transmission if there is doubt over traffic that may cause a conflict ? The visibility at the weekend was particularly bad and I had trouble spotting traffic joining base when I was on downwind. Had the RT been busy, I would have been tempted to talk over the other pilot and make my apologies on the ground. What is the done thing ?

[Whirlybird]

What is the likelihood that anything would come of not telling the first station (Shoreham in this case) that you're changing frequency? Obviously it is good airmanship and polite and 'generally a good idea' but surely they'd not send out a search party if you didn't do it?

I once got out of range of Birmingham, from whom I was receiving a FIS, before I could sign off. When I got to my destination, they'd phoned...not sure if it was to complain or to make sure I was safe or both. So now if that happens, I ask someone to pass a message, or phone as soon as I'm on the ground.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

What is the likelihood that anything would come of not telling the first station (Shoreham in this case) that you're changing frequency? Well, according to my Air Law text book, whatever else was going on an Alerting Service was in effect. If an aircraft receiving an alerting service simply disappears from the frequency then the ATSU has to try to find them, ultimately ending up with Search & Rescue.

If they can find the time, I suppose.

And anyway, does what it says in the Air Law text book actually reflect real life?

[foxmoth]

Excuse my ignorance, but flying regularly in this area this does not seem to make sense, just past Shoreham you would not be infringing Solent for another 15+ mins in most light aircraft, well past Selsey and Nav sould not then have been a problem as even in bad vis the IoW /Portsmouth should have been in sight before reaching Solent. (I have been out of the country so there may have been temporary restrictions in force that I do not know about - but this does not show on these postings).:confused:

[Russell Gulch]

[off-topic]
why Harwell's P106 still exists I can understand the question (like as if a little exclusion zone is going to prevent any unpleasantness).

There is still a lot of "old material" there, going back to the very earliest experiments. It is undergoing re-siting (within the Harwell complex) to protect it for a little longer than the original canisters could offer. The cost of this is enormous.

Unfortunately, a lot of this "material" is of unknown type and/or indeterminate radioactivity, from old gloves & suits to particles of unknown isotopes. Some has a half-life >100,000 years (so I am led to believe)...how dreadful that we impart this legacy to future generations.
[/off-topic]

Russ

[Human Factor]

Subject to your workload (clearly not possible in Genghis's case), is there any reason why you can't call London Info, who rarely seem snowed under, and ask them to make a phone call for you....?

[Keygrip]

Well - yeah.

That's why Whirly was chased by ATC (had the same happen to me years ago - orevious station called the one I was now working).

That's exactly why they are so keen to have you "sign off" - the Alerting Service is in action.

[IO540]

The reality is, however, that a lot of the time one cannot sign off because one cannot get a word in edgeways - short of turning the aircraft around and flying back a bit and trying some more, which is IMHO unreasonable.

Personally I try extra hard to sign off from a radar unit, but it is perhaps less necessary because they can see the squawk change from 0234 or whatever to 7000 so they know you have moved on.

A lot of people give you such a totally casual sort of FIS (Solent comes to mind here) that one doesn't feel guilty about it :O

In other places e.g. France at weekends (in the past, perhaps not anymore) the service can be so patchy that signing off just doesn't happen a lot of the time even when there is no radio traffic.

I also think that the extent to which ATC will be worried about somebody who vanishes depends on how the person sounded on the radio. If he/she was clearly struggling to manage the flight they might get quite concerned. OTOH if it is some IFR flight OCAS, navigating along IFR waypoints, at FL050, they are less likely to worry. OTOH such a flight is pretty unlikely to be talking to anybody who doesn't offer a radar service - what would be the point??

[BEXIL160]

Good Post, lots of valuable info.

Some more food for thought.
Being told by Solent (who, relatively speaking, were not busy)
Judging how busy an ATC unit is based solely on the frequency you are using can't be relied upon. The ATCO concerned may have a whole host of other frequencies and tasks going on, that you will not always be aware of.

Those nice people at London Information (124.6 / 124.75) might have been able to help, but granted, they do get very busy frequency wise.

There's also D&D, on 121.5. They're not just there for emergencies. Indeed, given that they would untimately been invovled if Shoreham had started overdue action on Gengis, they'd probably appreciate the call to let Shoreham know.

(Easy on the ground isn't it? Not sure I'd have been able to think it through in the air)

Rgds BEX

[RAC/OPS]

.....less necessary because they can see the squawk change from 0234 or whatever to 7000 so they know you have moved on

True to a certain extent, but if you do this (in fact whenever you change squawks), PLEASE switch your transponder to standby while you change the squawk. Situation the other day in which a pilot did this after leaving another unit's freq without saying bye bye for whatever reason. Unit squawk changes from XXXX to 7700 and stays on the emerg code for a good 5 mins til the acft called me. Better than a shot of caffeine to get the heart rate up!

Even if the right code is eventually entered it is annoying to see various numbers/callsigns pop up as the pilot trawls through the numbers.

Of course this can happen even if the intention to QSY had been acknowledged.

[Fuji Abound]

An interesting and good account.

Without intending to detract at all from the spirit in which your account was written I think Foxmouth makes a good point.

With hindsight it is easy to say, but with zones like solent if you dont get the clearance you are expecting it is well worth having an avoid plan up your sleeve which then becomes second nature even if you are still worrying about an earlier problem. With solent for example their are several ways around or through the zone which do not require a clearance.

Also it is worth looking around for smaller airports that are often not as busy and more likely to take on the repsonsibility of signing you off with the earlier unit. In this case what about Goodwood Chichester that are always worth a call for a FIS when routing along the coast.

Finally, and happy to be corrected, but because an aircraft does not sign off with a unit and given the unit has no obvious reason to believe a problem has occurred I cant imagine a SAR action is a high priority for them so their is plenty of time on your side to ask another unit along the route to pass the message - any will do.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Three points:-

(1) I wasn't asking for a clearance, only for a FIS.

(2) Solent was less busy that Shoreham, insofar as the RT was quiet enough to speak to them.

(3) My route took me within a mile of Solent's airspace, and nowhere near Goodwood. In that context, speaking to anybody but Solent wouldn't have made much sense.

On Foxmouth's more detailed point, I elected to change at Selsey Bill, when I was close enough to be an issue to Solent, not "just past Shoreham". My routing was then inland, on a direct track to Popham, not along the Solent.

G

[Fuji Abound]

Genghis

(1) I see and having had a look at your route there was no reason too.

(2) Agreed, but with hindsight most commercial control zones (perhaps sadly) are less inclined to do "jobs" on the land line for us GA pilots. I am not sure I completely agree with my own point as I personally have always found Solent really helpful but I know that is not everyones experience.

(3) I suppose it depends how you use the radio. Personally I am a bit of a radio freak. I feel it does no harm at all to tell the nearest radio what you are doing because any information they can give you might be of help. For example in bound aircraft will probably give them a call from some distance away so that helps build a picture of who is around, they may know of aircraft aerobating in their vicinity and they may know of any temporary restrictions (which yes of course you should have got from the AIS, but might have just "overlooked"). I equally understand that there are others who prefer to avoid speaking to anyone if they possibly can.

If you did go to Selsey or somewhere in that vicinity and then direct Popham you would have routed somewhere around Thorney island. The fact of the matter is solent isnt interest in traffic that far away from them and nor is Shoreham. That is very much the local flying area for Goodwood though. They often have aircraft aerobating over Thorney island and a lot of aircraft routing east along the coast will give Goodwood a call before Shoreham.

So I suppose I am merely say Goodwood might have been worth a call and certainly would have got on the land line for you.

[BEagle]

"There's also D&D, on 121.5. They're not just there for emergencies. Indeed, given that they would untimately been invovled if Shoreham had started overdue action on Gengis, they'd probably appreciate the call to let Shoreham know."

Absolutely NOT! Do NOT under ANY circumstances make such a call on 121.5 unless urgency or distress dictates otherwise. The information should have been relayed back to Shoreham via landline -and it was hardly critical in any case.

I use the radio when I need to and obtain the class of service appropriate. If I'm going within a few miles of an aerodrome, I'd probably give that aerodrome a call, however.

The Golf Alfa Good Mornings who clutter up the RT with non-essential RT yak (often including their life history) are irritating beyond belief for both pilots and controllers alike!

Always ask yourself whether your actually NEED to make that call!

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that some of the implied criticism of Solent is getting slightly out of hand here. What I posted was intended as a learning point, not a criticism of anybody (save possbly myself).

Incidentally, as a long term user of Solent Radar, my experience is almost universally positive (I even wrote the SATCO a letter of thanks once). I know some people have had problems with them, but that's been very rarely my experience.

G

[Fuji Abound]

Beagle

"Always ask yourself whether your actually NEED to make that call!"


As I said in an earlier post I know this is a common stance. Your definitions of "need" may even be the same as mine.

However I get the impression that some pilots will avoid asking for a flight information service - and I hope it is still on topic, becasue Genghis may have been reluctant to talk to Goodwood in this case because it was a little way a way.

If I am aerobating over Ford or Thorny Island I will always tell Goodwood. If no one is going to talk to Goodwood my call also becomes a bit pointless! However I bet if your are on frequency you will either hear them passing that information on to other pilots or listen in on my call. The problem is that if everyone only listens Goodwood does not have the opportunity to provide the information.

In my view if a freqeuncy is not too busy a quick call as you pass to ask for a FIS is not pointless yak and adds significantly to reducing the risk of a collision.

[nipper1]

Thanks Genghis

Some valuable points. I’m sorry to see it has rather turned into a “Solent Zone bashing session”

I've flown in and out of Solent Zone all my flying life. I learned to fly at Southampton and my aircraft is based on a strip in the zone.

One thing that no one has mentioned is the action the controller took was entirely appropriate to the event. Ghengis was turned away and no further action was taken. No harm done: lesson learned.

They are unfailingly helpful to me (and always have been).

Solent were equally helpful (and kind) to me when I was returning to Lee on Solent a month ago. Planning to pass outside the zone and not wishing to break in on a very busy frequency I was listening to Solent Radar but had not called them – all the while flying outbound on the 190 radial from CPT instead of the intended 170. A schoolboy mistake I know, but more easily done than you might imagine. Descending rapidly over what had (out of the thick haze) clearly become Winchester, I responded to the call "Any unidentified aircraft working this frequency approximately ten miles to the north of Southampton descending through 2500".

As with Ghengis, I was turned swiftly away and no further action was taken.

I did however once fly in as a passenger a Jet Ranger and the pilot was just a little bit arrogant with them on the radio. We got a "join downwind left for 20, number seven (yes really, number seven) in traffic".

And finally, the pilot who flew into our strip without so much as a phone or radio call to anyone was swiftly traced and invited to have a little chat with the magistrates in Southampton.

So far as I can see, the moral is pretty clear.

[DFC]

Perhaps this happened because of a wider problem with what unit to talk to enroute.

One has to think that there is the posibility that Shoreham's R/T traffic is partly made up of calls from aircraft that are enroute and not having any effect on or in any real proximity to the aerodrome.

Solent radar are there to provide a service in the Solent CTA and to traffic in CAS.

Goodwood is an AFISO unit which can only provide a service to Aerodrome Traffic it can not as far as I am aware provide an enroute service.

Overall however, we have a bit of a mess with enroute flights not sure of exactly who to talk to and I believe that every VFR flight should be capable of getting a full enroute FIS service in class G airspace from a clearly defined unit. NOT simply calling up and loading every airfield frequency they pick off the map as being "close at hand".

Many operators have a requirment to be in receipt of a minimum of an FIS at all times e.g. Police Operators and I can tell you that Solent don't tell the police aircraft to freecall enroute asap :) - I love their idea of offering an FIS to civil GA traffic enroute to the isle of wight and terminating the service just as they coast out on the leg that is in most need of a good ATS service!

Personally, I think that GA calls to Solent should go something like;

"Solent GABCD request FIS"

"GABCD FIS available from London on 124.75"

That would remove any ambiguity and lots of the complaints about Solent and start a whole rash of "why can't we get an FIS from London" debates which is where the problems for enroute aircraft lies.

Imagine the mound of paperwork that would be generated if every pilot submitted a report whenever a FIS was not available when requested due to frequency congestion / controller workload.

Perhaps the non-existance of a proper enroute FIS is the real reason for Genghis having this unfortunate story to tell.

Regards,

DFC

[IO540]

Personally, I think that GA calls to Solent should go something like;

I disagree.

I suspect the reason that Solent might like to provide an FIS (which, without a radar service, in reality means nothing more TO THE PILOT than two-way radio contact) is that a lot of casual VFR pilots go very close to their CAS. Especially when going just below the 2000ft bit N of IOW. Obviously Solent can see the a/c on radar which is handy in case the pilot gets too close to something and can be called up.

The absence of an RIS means the controller gets to eat his cake (he gets the radar picture, plus 2-way radio contact which he uses only if he needs to) and gets to keep it (no need to provide a traffic service, or any other service really) to the pilot.

It MUST be better for Solent to have 2-way radio contact with VFR traffic passing so close to Southampton traffic, than to have them talking to say Goodwood (who cannot provide any useful service, beyond "three aircraft known in the area").

[Fuji Abound]

I think there are some very interesting points that have come out of this discussion.

Firstly whilst DFC may be technically correct that solent are their to provide a service for aircraft within CAS as he rightly says if London info provided the service many get from solent whilst outside CAS practically they would be swamped and we all know the funding is not their to do anything about it.

As IO540 says I have always found Solent provide a brilliant service to everyone operating in and around the CAS. I disagree that they try and get rid of you as soon as possible when routing to Bembridge or Sandown for example.

I0540 says picks up on the comment about "three aircraft known in the area." I think this is far to simplistic an approach. So far as a FIS is concerned places like Shoreham and Goodwood will often pass this sort of information and I agree it is not a lot of help.


However lets consider a typical flight from Shoreham to say Bembridge. What are your options?

1. As you leave Shoreham stay on their frequency until say Bognor and ask for a FIS. They will initially tell you something like three aircraft known to the west operating VFR - agreed not a lot of help BUT as you continue on route you will hear other inbound aircraft often reporting now at Littlehampton, 2,400 inbound - great, at least you now have an idea of conflicting traffic, its altitude and where to look. Next over to Goodwood. On initial call up they tell you five in the local area including a Pitts aerobating over Hayling Island up to 5,500 feet. Great, again you know where to look, where to avoid. Another comes on frequency inbound to Goodwood from Bembridge. OK there is a good chance he will cross my track. Next it is Solent and an aircraft is wanting a clearance but asked to hold at Hayling Island, another to look out for and finally having got mid way across the solent on to Bembride for their traffic pattern information.

2. Another option is to talk to London. Ok, but now you miss out on the aircraft inbound to Shoreham, inbound to Goodwood, aerobating and holding at Hayling. London may have some information for you but I bet most of the aircraft in the area if they are talking to anyone will be talking to Goodwood or Shoreham or Solent and not London.

3. Finally, get rid of Shoreham at Worthing (you are outside their zone) and don’t talk to anyone until you get to Bembridge. Great, but you are now totally devoid of any traffic information what so ever other than Shoreham's sign off with you, three know to the west.

I know which I would prefer!

Bembridge, like so many small fields, are friendly, always helpful and not usually over burdened with traffic calls. They are only to willing in my experience to tell Shoreham you couldn’t sign off with them. Why on earth not use them if you need to???

[EGTC]

Its a shame that LARS coverage isn't widely available at the weekends. I use Brize Radar when in my local area for a RIS (they're H24), and the service is excellent, they always give useful information about traffic and parachute dropping in the area which is common. I always feel safer when on radar.

As said on here already, an FIS can be less helpful. Usually something like "three aircraft known in area, roughly same height" and they can't be seen. Its almost as bad as hearing someone report at the same altitude and position that your at, and not being able to see them :}