Emirates 2nd Officers [Archive]

desertrats

14th Sep 2005, 00:15

This 2nd officer thing is fairdinkum! Although it does not appear on the EK website. The guy in question had applied for a FO position and got a reply stating that he did not have the requirements for an FO slot but was considered for a SO slot. He was given an interview date and will be up there next month. This is fom EK recruitment mind you. So maybe this is the answer to the shortage of drivers. Because I cant see us getting too many drivers to fill the massive order book.

Ramboflyer 1

14th Sep 2005, 03:43

Dont forget, a CX SO earns the same as a EK Captain ..........:ok:

Warlock2000

14th Sep 2005, 04:27

Didn't TCAS say no SO's at the meeting...?
:confused:

BYMONEK

14th Sep 2005, 05:15

Don't forget....... a CX S/O will need to earn what an Emirates Captain earns. HK is not cheap. And before all the replies fly in reminding us all how expensive Dubai is getting, we're not even close to the cost of living out there. Not even close!

Fugazi

14th Sep 2005, 05:54

I've been here 12 years & I earn US $15,000 a month which includes basic salary, overtime and housing allowance. This figure does not include kids education assistance (95% in my case), medical benefits etc. Correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt if a CX S/O earns that sort of dosh. Maybe you're comparing with year 1 Captains salary, but even then.......

Believe Brother

14th Sep 2005, 06:50

HK is not cheap. And before all the replies fly in reminding us all how expensive Dubai is getting, we're not even close to the cost of living out there. Not even close!

All that matters is how much you have left over at the end of the month to save or invest. Sorry BYMONEK, but on that basis, EK is not even close to CX. Not sure how your friends there live, but I have a lot of friends in CX who are at similar seniority to mine in EK, and they just laugh at what we get paid and have remaining at the end of the month (I'm talking B-scale as well). And after all, most of us aren't expats because we like the beautiful surrounds of the country where we work! Remember the famous airline comparison survey that EK talks about, but never releases to us? Our colleagues in CX and KA get to see that (guess those companies have nothing to hide), and that spells things out fairly clearly. It also shows some elements of utter c**p that EK HR managers believe regarding our package.

petitfromage

14th Sep 2005, 07:30

CX (B scale)
Yr 1 SO: US$4650 per mth plus US$3610 housing
Yr 3 SO: US$5810 plus housing US$5810.

Tax: 16%
Housing....if youre renting it doesnt really count I guess. But if you've brought a apartment/boat then the $$ are paying off you mortgage, so I guess you an add that to you wage?

JFO (incl housing) US$12,260
FO (incl housing) US$14,000

Time to full FO from joining is currently 4.2yrs.
Flying pay and allowances vary from Yr 1 SO approx US$800/mth to FO approx US$1600/mth.

Now hopefully you can argue your point armed with some facts?

BYMONEK

14th Sep 2005, 09:52

Petitfromage

Thanks for the info. Which will confirm that a CX S/O is NOT earning as much as an EK Captain.

BelieveBrother

I seem to remember going over this same old debate several months ago with you and others. The conclusions are still the same. Regardless of the big bucks, many would not want to live in HK the same way others would never consider the Middle East. Cathay have always been big payers so if you want the money, go there. My quality of life here in Dubai is far greater than one I could achieve in HK and that's the reason i'm here. Not just the money left over each month to save, but quality of life for me and my family.......along with a seven hour flight home instead of 13!
Horses for courses.
I do agree with you on the publishing of the list though. In fact, do we even publish a copy of our own yearly increments anymore?
Regards
BYMONEK

Mick Jagger

14th Sep 2005, 10:08

Bymonek,

I beg to differ regarding the cost of living equation. I left EK as a Training Capt to come to Hong Kong as an FO. I now save twice what I did before. Also the company is kind enough to give me an EK Capt starting salary per month to help me buy a flat. Yes thats 1Million US over 15 years in addition to my salary which is much more than I earnt in EK. Not to mention my 62 days leave my travel fund of 50K Dhms per year and Oh yes 13 months pay.

In addition I get 15% bonus every year. Tends to work out around 230000 Dhms over 3 years.

You guys are SADLY underpaid and would do this industry a great service by walking as I did.

Or you could bury your head in the sand and wait for the shafting.

Mick

donpizmeov

14th Sep 2005, 10:21

Glad to see its working out Mick.

Don

Dani

14th Sep 2005, 10:53

EKs pay used to be quite good, just the dollar tends to spoil it. US$ lost about 50% to most major currencies in the last few years. Eighter EK pays more or you wait until a Democrat starts to do good fiscal politics.

SPOILERS

14th Sep 2005, 11:02

Mick glad things are working out in Honkers, your post sums up how badly paid we are in EK.
After the latest pilot meeting TCAS and crowd seem blissfully unaware of the crisis thast will shortly hit EK through lack of crew.
Perhaps a detailed comparison with the Cathay salaries can be posted by someone??????????

Believe Brother

14th Sep 2005, 11:15

Mick, also very happy to see it working out. Thanks for posting those facts on this forum. It shows where EK is by expat standards.

BYMONEK, yep, we sparred about this a while back. Horses for courses is true. You are happy to forego salary as you like the lifestle DXB offers in comparison with other expat jobs. Fare cop. A lot of us though find the quality of life here (including EK's ability to wear us out rapidly with its pressures and practices) far worse than home, and the current remuneration doesn't make up for it, in my opinion! Cheers.

BYMONEK

14th Sep 2005, 11:58

Mick Jagger

I'm also glad it's worked out for you. You made the decision to move for whatever reason/s and it's worked out. A move nearer to 'home' maybe? As many have said and done before, if things really are that bad and you can find better elsewhere, then go. That applies to any job. I have family in HK so know what life is like there. Some love it, others don't. I'm the latter. By the way, I never started the cost of living debate. I merely stated that regardless of how much extra you can save, Cathay is not for everyone.

Out of interest, how much of a property does $1 million buy you in HK? 2/3 bedroom apartment? good location? Not a 5 bedroom 5000 sq ft villa with pool and garden. I know which my kids prefer and that's why i'm here. I'm not in competition with anyone as to who earns the most (I'd lose anyway), just trying to offer the best for my family. In my case, that's Dubai. For now, anyway!

BelieveBrother

Yes, we'd all like EK to be 'THE' Airline to work for. But until we rid ourselves of the greed, nepotism, racism and general arse covering / face saving that takes place, we'll always have a long way to go.

This seems to be turning into a CX V EK debate which I doubt was why this topic was started. Back to the thead?
Safe flying
BYMONEK

BusyB

14th Sep 2005, 12:07

MJ,
I'd love to know where or how you get 62 days leave?

ozzie winger

14th Sep 2005, 13:43

Mick, so what you earning net, per month, broken down into salary, flying allowance and housing. Curious.

Mick Jagger

14th Sep 2005, 14:03

Seaman,

I have done the command thing at EK and am no longer "drawn" to the idea as I once was. I work for my own interests and am earning double what I was when I had all the bells and whistles so I am content, However in answer to your question, recent developments here have created the possibility of command within a year or so.

Regarding leave, I do not wish to go into details but by cleverly applying for leave to optimise extra days off. That figure is achievable.

To all those that have wished me well, thank you.

I here that at a recent high level event. EK admitted that they are now reaching crisis level due to number of guys leaving and poor responce to advertisements. Keep up the fight brothers.

Mick

Shake

14th Sep 2005, 14:30

Nice to hear things are going well Mick. I know it was a hard decision for you but you took the risk and it seems to have paid off. As they say, those with get up and go, go. You made your own luck and fair play to you.

Those of us left considering or in the process of moving from EK face a smilar risk, but EK are making it a great deal easier with their attitude. The recent meeting was an ideal forum to address the real and growing concerns of the pilots, but what did they do? NOTHING. This inaction induces an even stronger reaction from an already demoralised, demotivated work force...the future's bright, the future is outside EK.

typhoonpilot

14th Sep 2005, 15:51

Hi Mick:

Also glad to see things are working out for you, but in regards to this statement:

"You guys are SADLY underpaid and would do this industry a great service by walking as I did.

Or you could bury your head in the sand and wait for the shafting."

I have to comment. Dragon was my first choice of expat airlines to work for. I sent them letters and resumes for years, finally I camped on their door step in Hong Kong just to get in and meet with the recruiting ladies. I speak Mandarin Chinese and have substantial experience flying in Asia, yet they considered me unqualified. I believe it is a prejudice against my passport and certificates. Honestly, I don't know what else it could be. They wouldn't even interview me.

So it isn't necessarily easy to just "walk" when you don't like the package. You had the right passport and certificates to "walk". Others also have them to go to Dragon or back to Europe, while some of us don't. We make the best of it here. In the end it isn't that bad of a package. I keep a continuous eye on expat contracts around the world. I compare what I can "save" here versus what I could save doing the other contracts I see. Emirates generally comes out ahead. Management here knows that and they will only keep the package just good enough to beat those other contracts.

Typhoonpilot

Mick Jagger

14th Sep 2005, 16:27

Hi Typhoon,

I hope you and the family are well.

I remember our Manilla flight well, just before your upgrade. I promise you the reason was not your passport. We have others here from the same place. If you would like to discuss then please look up my website on the net (just search under my name ) and give me a call.

I accept that there are not that many very good jobs out there but a little searching will reveal a few. It is very hard to give up on the time already invested in EK and accept a demotion in aorder to provide a better future for your family. However can you ever see yourself retiring from EK with a reasonable lifestyle? If not then you must act, sooner rather than later. I wish you the best of luck.

Mick

Saltaire

14th Sep 2005, 17:54

I'm sure Dragon is about the same but I know Year 1 CX captain makes 12500 US/ mo. That's 45k Dirhams.......Year 1. That's straight salary with nothing included..... EK is VASTLY underpaid.

Musket118

14th Sep 2005, 23:31

Hey Mick Jagger, you say:

"I here that at a recent high level event. EK admitted that they are now reaching crisis level due to number of guys leaving and poor responce to advertisements"

It is strange for me to read your post! I have over 7500 hrs experience including over 3000 hrs of that on heavy wide body, but yet (after 6 months) I am still waiting for even an acknowledgement from EK that they have received my application! If in deed they are looking for pilot, why are they not acknowledging aplication from experienced applicants?

Just wandering I guest! :*

Metro man

15th Sep 2005, 02:35

Remember the days when you had to be a space shuttle captain just to get an interview with Cathay ? A scale pay and one of the best jobs in the world.

Since the B,C,D etc scales came in the experience requirements headed south and CP came to Aussie and NZ looking for turbo prop, and in some cases piston, drivers to train up as S/Os.

Can anyone see EK going the same way ?

bluewater

15th Sep 2005, 03:22

Yes...and if you're a kiwi metro driver I would take you tommorrow if it were up to up me...

Metro man

15th Sep 2005, 05:05

The way I see things is;

1.Emirates aren't getting pilots with the experience they would like because they are either just not there or unwilling to accept what EK has put on the table.

2.Assuming EK won't offer more, solution - Drop Jet/Heavy/Glass requirement. Place advert in Friday "Australian" news paper aviation section "Pilots Wanted". Book hotel rooms in SYD/BNE/MEL for interviews. Hire security guards for crowd control.

3.Offer salaries of half present EK F/O levels, ie twice Aussie GA pilot wages.

4.Spend a bit more time and money on training SAAB/DHC8/SW4 and possible good piston drivers, prehaps make the new hire a S/O for a year first. Problem of F/Os solved.(Worked out OK for Cathay)

For Captains, offer half present Ek wages but give an Australian base. With daily services to most major Aussie cities should be easy enough to roster. Save on housing/school/unhappy wife in Dubai.

Stand by for applications from Aussies in Europe/Far East who have saved up enough money to be able to now work for peanuts and want to return home for family reasons/lifestyle. Problem of Captains solved.(Worked for Virgin Blue)

Present EK pilots like it or lump it, did you know Northwest and Delta both filed for bankrupcy today ? Got to cut costs you know. Management bonus increased as a result of savings made.

Ahad Adump

15th Sep 2005, 05:30

Basings !!!!!!

You must watch out for the new drug testing policy.
This is what we have asked for, for years now.
GN and his incompetent cronies want 100% control over EK drivers. So keep them right under their noses and make them spend their salaries back into arab pocket.

Mick Jagger

15th Sep 2005, 06:21

Musket,

I no longer work for EK but if you filled in your application form with the same merciless disregard for basic spelling and grammer as you demonstrated in your recent missive, then I should not be surprised that their recruitment department has treated you with such contempt.

ruserious

15th Sep 2005, 07:17

Earl,
Amen, brother, amen

Mick Jagger

15th Sep 2005, 10:41

Thanks SS for pointing out that deliberate mistake!!

DOH!!!

Musket118

15th Sep 2005, 17:07

Mick,
Thank you for pointing my errors. I guess all I can say is: Everybody makes mistakes. Some are big, some small. Many are costly. All are learning opportunities. If we’re smart and pay attention, we learn from our mistakes. If we’re really smart, we learn from other people’s slip-ups. And if we care at all about other people, we tell them “Don’t make the same mistake I did.” Thus, don’t type any post late at night after arriving from a 10-hour trans-Atlantic flight. The replies you will receive want be the information you were looking for.

Thanks anyway Mick!

ruserious

15th Sep 2005, 18:41

And I just thought you were French !

Mick Jagger

15th Sep 2005, 20:38

Just winding you up Musket ..no offence meant

Mick;)

Wiley

16th Sep 2005, 06:22

I'd be surprised if Management themselves knew which way they'll eventually go on the SO question - or any other policy decision that's more than 48 hours away. Such things are in a constant state of flux, and will be decided with customary brinkmanship, (a trait among modern day managers certainly not exclusive to EK).

However, since this IS a rumour network, here's a Class A rumour. Treat it was you will. TCAS is said to have informed a very recent resignee (is that the right word?) that he should seriously consider putting off his decision until after the "big announcement" in October.

Whether the "big announcement" will be as out of touch with reality as many increasingly cynical EK pilots consider some other recent decisions have been remains to be seen, but if the powers that be had a modicum of sense, they'd sweeten both sides of the toast - a more than notional pay rise to keep everyone happy, (the fall in the value of the USD has hurt virtually all but the incredibly small number of Americans in the EK pilot workforce), and a significant (please note that word, anyone from management reading this), alteration DOWNWARDS to the minimum conditions/requirements/time in company for upgrade.

I flew with a very new FO on a recent flight who, IMHO, would be more than ready for upgrade after two PPCs. (No command time at all. Ex 747-400 FO with his country’s flag carrier, many years experience on the same international routes that EK operates on - and for the cynics among you, he has very dark brown skin.) Under the current rules, he’s in the right seat for another two and half years at a minimum while DECs with possibly no experience in the region or on type come in above him.

I accept that with the huge number of upgrades over the next 12 months, EK can’t fill all the vacancies from eligible FOs already with the company. However, ‘eligible’ is an elastic term, and can be modified to suit the constantly changing situation. It’s time to modify the current definition, gents.

In the past, every time EK has needed a large influx of pilots, a major airline somewhere in the world has folded, almost as if on cue. Now we see NorthWest and Delta declaring Chapter 11, so it’s possible it’s about to happen yet again. I just hope someone in Ops Management has the courage to stand up and remind the decision makers what a success rate EK enjoyed with the last batch of American DECs they employed.

Cerberus

16th Sep 2005, 16:41

TCAS was asked directly at the meeting whether or not there would be something announced in October. He answered with an unequivocal 'NO!'

Loots

17th Sep 2005, 06:20

Mr BYMONEK:

As you will be aware I am not a regular contributer to this forum but occasionally I do like to read some of the guys posts.

I appreciated MICK JAGGERS post giving us an insite to life within CX and Hong Kong, and agree, that Hong Kong may not be for everyone.

I am also pleased that you are happy with your villa in the desert and that your children enjoy swimming in the pool, however, one should refrain from pissing on others fires and showing resentment as this can raise the question of how happy you actually are in the desert.

I am sure that Mick will do extremely well from his investment in Hong Kong and that he can safely budget on the monthly outgoings associated with his purchase. I beleive that the costs associated with living in Dubai have recently increase with the introduction of a 'property fee' or tax as other countries like to call it. Maintenance and inflation are also other unknown quantities you are faced with in the UAE. Also, the capital gain in normal countries tends to maintain a steady growth.

I do hope that you consider retirement and the consequences when you have to leave the desert. After all, your kids will be all grown up and off to live in the real world. Will dad still have a pool for them to swim in then? :ok:

Dissapointed

17th Sep 2005, 08:58

Loots, an excellent post! That basically says it all, none of us here in the desert are going to have anything at all if the conditions stay as they are. It's all very well for the Palm Island investors to say ' Hey! I made a million!' but not everyone had that sort of cash to invest.

Personally I have now had enough of the cr@p being thrown our way and will walk as soon as one of the jobs that I have applied for comes up. I am totally dissilusioned with the way things are run here, the package has deteriorated and the conditions are now poor. I am off. Thanks for having me. Swimming pools? Who bloody needs them....

Marcellus Wallace

19th Sep 2005, 08:38

Wiley said

"I flew with a very new FO on a recent flight who, IMHO, would be more than ready for upgrade after two PPCs. (No command time at all. Ex 747-400 FO with his country’s flag carrier, many years experience on the same international routes that EK operates on - and for the cynics among you, he has very dark brown skin.)"

Guess the recruitment department did choose some pilots worthy of their salt.;)

Vne98

20th Sep 2005, 16:10

So has anyone heard whether this rumor is true or not? Is Emirates hiring Second Officers officially? From what I see in their website it would be a NO.

But things in the desert seem to be run a little different...

desertrats

25th Sep 2005, 20:51

Well getting back to the topic...The guy calls me up the other day for info on the sim and stuff and says thats EK recruitment have advised him that its either going to be on the A380 sim or the 777. Does Ek even have an A380 sim yet? So judging from this information, I would say that Ek would be looking for 2nd officers to fill the A380 ranks. Would that be a safe assumption or is someone playing a really cruel joke on this poor fellow?

BYMONEK

27th Sep 2005, 13:27

Loots

As is usual on these forums, some who reply to posts have either misread them or have taken them out of context. I personally know who ' Mick Jagger' is and as I said in my post, wish him well. I at no time 'pissed' on his fire and can assure you that I resent nobody. My point was about quality of life which for me would mean living in a 3 bed apartment. Friends of mine have recently bought in HK, spending over £1,000,000 for a 3 bed flat. ( £'s NOT $'s ) and it's nothing special. Mick never replied to the question of what $1,000,000 would buy you over 15 years or so. Neither did anyone else in fact. Surely that says something about HK prices. Regarding my retirement, that's all in hand thanks. Your concern is appreciated though!

Dissapointed

A 'handle' you gave yourself after being here I assume? You're not alone for sure but although some things have changed, I scratch my head at times wondering if we're all working for the same Company? If you think conditions are poor here, I genuinely wish you well in your search for something better.

BYMONEK

saviboy

27th Sep 2005, 18:53

I am a turboprop F/O in florida and eventually I would like to fly for Emirates.
The S/O rumour is getting a lot of my attention of course.
I also thought about the fact EK has 45 A380 on order with the first one delivered in 2007 I believe. It would make sense to me that EK management starts thinking about how they are gonna fill those flight decks.
Therefore the recruiting of S/O from now would probably be a good idea( for me anyway! ;).
I might be totaly wrong of course and there could be thousands of pilots qualifying for the need EK will have in a couple of years.

Any opinions?

Fearless Leader

27th Sep 2005, 21:51

I also thought about the fact EK has 45 A380 on order with the first one delivered in 2007 I believe. It would make sense to me that EK management starts thinking about how they are gonna fill those flight decks

What makes you think EK management has any sense?

crazy_max

28th Sep 2005, 15:02

Haven't you read all the posts?
Why the hell would you wanna do that?

saviboy

28th Sep 2005, 16:32

crazy max
i read some of the posts here about Emirates, and it appears that the company is not the one it used to be.
however, i am not interetsed in working in the usa for the rest of my life. The stability is simply not there (i.e. delta, northwest, usa airways, eastern, pan am,etc...)
I am not saying that Emirates is the best airline in the world. I am looking into different alternatives in my career path . of course the most desirable airline for me is Cathay but from what I understood it is also the most desirable airline for a lot of poeple.
I am very open to advice from experienced people. What do u suggest? should I concentrate my efforts on Cathay exclusively?