Security going to far?

[puff m'call]

Couldn't belive the conversation I had with one of the cabin crew the other night during a flight, and this is FACT not fiction.

The security staff at our Crew Briefing Centre are taking some cabin crew to one side as they return from flights and strip searching them, sometimes completely naked, and even going as far as using rubber gloves for a closer look!!!!

Surely this treatment of crew can't be legal, Can it? And must you not have medical staff in attendance if you are doing that sort of thing?

Or is this just customs in Dubai doing what they like with no protection or rights for the individual?

Someone please help, is this legal?

Don't get me wrong, if you are smuggling drugs then you deserve all you get, but there is a right and wrong way to go about this.

[Can't think of a name]

This thread raises an excellent point for all the EK pilots to consider: the blase attitude of the security personnel to an individual's dignity and rights, and the blase attitude of our management to allow what can easily be seen as Sexual Assault to be conducted on EK crew. And yes, this DOES apply to us as pilots.

I have personally been asked twice in the past month, by cabin crew, for my advice on this situation. The first was a general question based on rumour and went along the lines of "what do I do, or what CAN I do, when instructed to submit to a cavity search?"

My response was "you are entitled to have medical representation present, and your first action is to call the duty cabin crew manager, and ask for advice and assistance in arranging that medical presence. If the duty CCM does not organise suitable medical representaion, or refuses to, or advises you that you have no right to a medical presence, then continue waking up every manager up the chain until Sheikh Ahmed tells you its ok." (I offered this advice not as a lawyer, but as a course of action that I would personally employ in such a situation)

The second question was from someone who DID receive such a search, AFTER speaking to the duty CC Manager and being told there was nothing to be done and she would have to submit to the search. The crew member was amazed by this, but was told she had no legal right to say no! The crew member submitted to the search, and contacted her CCM the next morning (this all happened in the middle of the night ofcourse) to discuss it as she was now feeling violated and wanted to take the matter further. She was told, by her CCM, that there was nothing to be done and it was routine security practice. That crew member has since resigned out of disgust for the manner of these searches.

I accept, understand and support, the security requirements associated with body searches: I'm not going down that road. My concern is about the manner in which they are conducted, and our company's lack of support for the crew members being intimidated into submitting to one WITHOUT MEDICAL REPRESENTATION.

If there is a management person reading this, perhaps you could garner comment from the EK legal department, Medical department, IFS and Flt Ops, and publish an official notice to crews about this very sensitive and personal issue?

Perhaps a question we should all consider as pilots (especially the Captains) is "what will you do/say when one of your crew ask your advice on this"?

And one for everybody to ponder....."Does this practice equate to sexual assault?"

[MrBig]

Clearly the law's in the Middle East are somewhat lackluster. Certainly, in the UK, such an intimate search is a criminal offence and would be dealt with severely. Large amounts of compensation would follow. If the crew concerned are hired in the UK they may be able to take the matter further. A visit to a Citizens Advice bureau may lead to some leagal advice.

[MR8]

Can't think of a name:

Would do the same thing as you stated, with one BIG difference. As a Captain (F/O in my case) I would personally stay and find out what to do. Personally I always go through security as the last of my crew, and if someone is being checked, I ask if they are ok.

As far as blase attitude from security staff, I can't complain about the attitude. But then again, I greet them verey time I go through security. I've been 'caught' with 6 bottles in my suitcase (was only 4 litres of alcohol), and they just asked me what was in my suitcase, explained them (4 botlles of wine, 1 spirits, 1 non alcoholic) and I didn't even have to open my bag.

Don't get me wrong, I am completely against the methods they use, but this is probably the way they were trained. And by just being friendly with them, you can avoid a lot of problems.. After all, they are just doing their job, with long nights just as we do...

MR8

[violate]

Funny how GN comments on everything else, but is noticeably missing on this one, after all it might be to sensitive for VPCC to risk a comment

[ctl25]

MR8 says:
And by just being friendly with them, you can avoid a lot of problems..

I would like to know what kind of answer and attitude this is ?????????:confused:

I would like to see your face, the day they are checking you in this manner. So lets pray to God, that your friendliness will help you than. I am sorry to say, but I am quite disappointed with your kind of answer. I totally agree with the fact that checks need to be done, but surely not in this kind of manner. And after all, Middle East or not, certain rules should apply. And surely it can't be that hard to have some kind of medical personnel present.:*

ctl25

[Cerberus]

Do the checks not need to be done with probable cause? I think it might be appropriate not only to force it up our chain of command but also up the security persons chain of command. It is amazing how much goes accepted in the UAE out of ignorance of local procedures. It is also amazing how often people back down when properly challenged. Routinely lower ranking staff step over personal rights and would be hung drawn and quartered if this was brought to the attention of their superiors (not literally I hope).

I have not been involved in one of these incidents but as MR8 says I would stay with crew and make certain that the Duty CCM and a medical representative were present. (Out of interest, I wonder if you have the right to even contact your own countries embassy for assistance as any other citizen has the right to.) The next step would be to write a full report directly to SVP level management asking for their advice and a written policy. If you really have first hand information of these events, rather than writing on PPrune and hoping something will be done, why not take responsibility now.

Cerberus

[Can't think of a name]

Dear Cerberus and MR8,

I totally agree with "staying there and making sure things are ok". This question was asked of me some time after the event, and I was not present at the time of the incident. I can assure both of you that had I been present and privy to the situation I would have had AS on the phone, regardless of the hour.

I put this forward on this forum simply to make others aware, and to encourage consideration of the "what would I do in that situation" scenario.

Off to work now......CTOAN

[MR8]

ctl25:

The staying friendly part of my reply was just there to state that I never had any problems, even though they might have suspected something. A lot of the crew treat customs as if they were non existant, or start complaining even before a question has been asked. Just as I also make a point of greeting the cleaners, engineers, etc etc.. And guess what, if I have a problem, I can get a lot more done then people who live with their nose in the air...

Sorry to disappoint you with that.. :E

MR8

[mini]

This is disgusting. In this day & age, taking into consideration the access to resources that are available in this region, this procedure is diabolical.

You guys need to unite & take a very firm stand on this.

[Ahad Adump]

MR8

I would not be toooo friendly if I was you.
Might be cavity searched with 2 hands on your shoulders.

[shawarma]

Might be cavity searched with 2 hands on your shoulders.

that is done by mangement

[White Sausage]

Hi guys,
just happened yesterday to one girl of my cabin crew:

She was stopped and searched very carefully (ok, not her, but her baggage). Anyway, thanks to this post, I decided to wait for her (just in case) and guess what?

This s&%$§/&%head of customs guy told me to leave.
But White Sausage wouldn´t be White Sausage if he´d left, so of course I told him to shut up and waited for her, despite this crackhead starting trying to chase me away. I asked him where it was written down that I couldn´t wait, but you know these guys: They hardly can articulate.
Anyway, the seemed to be not too happy seeing me standing there and eventually ended their search without asking her to strip.
Now I´m sure it´s gonna be me next time...

But - it was worth!!! The girl was more than happy that she got at least some kind of support and these f$§%&$§rs saw that somebody was watching them.
I would recommend that all of us stand behind our cabin and support them! That´s how it´s supposed to be, we are ONE crew and we are one until we check out, not earlier.
Just for the records: I´m not in management, I am F/O and now waiting for all the stonethrowers...

[Homo Ludens]

Well done, mate! Good job! You're 100% right there - we are one crew!
I'm duing the same whenever posible!

HL

[wastafarian]

How about the crew member calling the Embassy or Consulate of their citizenship? Could very well be a Human Rights violation.

Is this a matter of airport security personnel doing the examination or Customs? Many airports do have medical personel present-- it would be appropriate to ask that one is present.

In many places, anybody has the right to refuse a search to enter a secure area, the caveat is that they will be refused entry. That is fair.

[White Knight]

MR8 - you quite right, if you start off with a smile rather than a challenge things are always easier to get sorted out.. like you say not just customs, but engineers, despatchers etc. Very sadly we do have one or two obnoxious people in the company - they often stuff up any goodwill that may be directed our way!!

[Ghostflyer]

When directly asked, the security trainers said that if a strip search is to be done you have the right to representation by your manager. That could be the CCM or us. If any more serious kind of search were to be undertaken, it would not take place at the CBC gate and could only be undertaken in the presence of medical personnel.

Ghost

[White Sausage]

Well guys, the question still remains: Where is it written down that they are allowed to do that? Is there any law? Or are they just doing it because they think that they can do it? Would be interesting to challenge it...

I know we are living in a 4th world country and we cannot expect civilized behaviour by them, but maybe going public with this issue would help a bit...

Any ideas? Coz I´m not willing anymore to let these f....s harrass my crew without any legal reason.

[EGGW]

Bottom line, the people doing the searches at CBC inbound are Customs, they like in any country i have visited have the right to search luggage/belongings of visitors/crew entering the country. They are looking for prohibited items. If they suspect there is something to give them cause for a search of bags/person they have every right to. History has shown that there are smugglers of exotic sustances amongst a minority of Cabin Crew.

However, what we as crew need is an official protocol from management at EK when those searches get rather more invasive. This is what is lacking at the moment. May i suggest if a "search" of more hidden places is required by security or Customs, then at least we stay around or better than that CCM's or F/Deck managers.

If you have bad experiences write to FDM.

EGGW.

[gee wizz]

If a search of our bags leads to a search of our bodies it would be an idea to have some sort of support there - ie, our CCM.......oops sorry, forgot, haven't got a CCM anymore :uhoh:

[NIGHTTRAMP]

Gents

After a few enquiries it appears that the customs have absolutely no right to do a cavity search. It is not the medical personel presence that is required but the fact that a cavity search can only be carried out by qualified medical personel.

I suggest that it is our responsiblity to advise our crews of this during briefings and to support them where required.

This country still has laws that even the local customs are required to observe.

NT

[chicken_or_fish]

LOL at Gee wizz:p


To all those flight deck like white sausage....you may not be told often, but your care and support is SO highly valued! Wish there were more of you!

[Desert Whine]

We all assume the crew get around with a high level of team spirit...BUTT... this is not always the case.

As Mr. Ree pointed out on the "Sacked CCMs" thread, a lot of the time the crew have anything butt a team spirit, at least as far as the pilots are concerned, which can be a major bummer. These crew will never be seen out enjoying a cold heiny with the pilots. Instead they stay down the rear or near L2 all the time.

Sadly, the first thing we might hear from one of the crew after a long BKK/SYD or couple of 14hr sectors to MEL is,

"Captain, help, this guy wants to look inside my ASS!! Do something, we're a team, remember???"

My suggestion in this case would be to ring your CCM (if you still have one) and ask to discuss it at a future date. I'm too tired having just flown an approach one dot high on the vasis and can't be arsed...

As for me, having read all the above, my new policy is never to jettison the long-haul-log until I get home so as to maximise the effect if they try that **** on me. In fact I can't wait!

Butt seriously... :p it will be a test of my character and an indication of what living here has done to me the day they pull asside one of my crew for an anal probe. Especially if it's some snooty leb who never said a word to us for 10 sectors. I like to think I'll do the right thing. Maybe I will even if only out of a sense of personal outrage because the team spirit sure ain't there most of the time.

To all the cabin crew reading this thread, there's a damn good reason to make an effort to visit the cockpit. As if you needed one at all.

[vfenext]

Eh..there is only one T in BUT, otherwise it's something else!

[Desert Whine]

Jeezuzzzz... hasn't anyone ever heard of sarcasm??? It's a thread about peoples' butts.


Maybe that's why Masscarpone is such a cranky old hag:

Maybe someone in Customs, probably that really fat slug with the goatee and the really fat fingers, has stuck a couple of them up Masscarpone's balloon knot after a Colombo because he heard that's where all the coke is made.

[gee wizz]

Chix or fish - he he, i have a point hey!

And i agree - WHITE SAUSAGE ROCKS! :ok:

[White Sausage]

chicken_or_fish and gee wizz: Thanks very much for the praise! I´m a rocker, cooooool!

Having said that, I totally agree with the other guys talking bout tema spirit: Unfortunately, too often the cabin crew doesn´t give a s....t of seeing us in the cockpit. It´s give and take, so I would go the extra mile for a nice crew (and I think the rest of us as well).

It´s a bit a pity to see a lack of fun or going out together on layovers, compared to all the other airlines I used to work before. Cannot think of a reason...maybe someone can?

And Desert Whine: You are 100 % spot on with your post saying that there are more good reasons to see us in the cockpit!