Capt. fired by fax

[MaxBlow]

Saw a tv report in Germany in the hotel lobby just before pick up.
Didn´t quite get it so asked one of the Germans next to me who was also watching.

He explained that the capt. has been fired because he returned to Paris after loosing a generator instead of to continue to Tunesia.
Aircraft was an A300 of Flyair and the capt. a contract pilot from Europe.

Anybody knows more?
:ouch:

[cringe]

News report in English:

Pilot sacked for taking precautionary measures (http://www.vrtnieuws.net/nieuwsnet_master/default/english/overzicht/050831_FlyAir/index.html)

[LatviaCalling]

Come on now, we need a few more responses to this hideous deed by the Turks. With all the past happenings, don't you think that people are getting worried about flying to their holiday destinations. Especially, when a pilot does the right thing and then is canned.

[Kaptin M]

If the other engine driven generator, and the APU gen were serviceable, and there were no other compounding factors, a loss of 1 generator is hardly a reason to turnback, or divert, imho.

[16 blades]

Read the link, Kaptin - it intimates that a 'fuel leak and numerous other defects' were found on the aircraft. Absolutely abominable treatment of a professional who, IMHO seems to have done the right thing. Maybe the genny snag was the last straw in a host of deferred minor defects - who knows?

16B

[cringe]

The article's reference to "further problems" (including a fuel tank leak), allegedly subsequently discovered upon inspection on the plane at Orly, may well relate to another incident of the same airline that happened a few days later at CDG. A (different) Fly Air A300 was stopped by the authorities before a flight to Turkey, reportedly found with wrong tyres and a small fuel leak.

The Orly incident made the news earlier, mainly due to the passengers' refusal to reboard the plane.

[xrba]

So one pilot was sacked by fax. Chickenfeed! The late unlamented Lord King and his fellow reptiles managed, with no prior announcement, to illegally sack 330 DanAir pilots at a televised press conference, aided greatly by the connivance of the BALPA, an outfit with no moral scruples whatsoever. Was this an aviation record?

[Airbubba]

>>Was this an aviation record?

Seems like a larger bunch of pilots resigned by fax in 1989. You can still find many of them doing contract work throughout Asia and the Middle East...

[xrba]

A record for illegal unnannounced sackings, not voluntary resignations.

[N380UA]

Well if nobody else is saying it – Fly Air ought to be blacklisted right there.
The reason is not the fact that the ship had some technical problems. They can and will occur.
The reason is not the notification to the skipper being fired by fax –although tasteless.
A captain is the first, last and only authority in flight. That some bean counter has the cojones to question a captains decision in what he deemed a safety relevant issue over revenue shows where their priority lays. Therefore, Fly Air ought to be blacklisted.

[catchup]

Very well said...:ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Whilst it may or may not be acceptable for somebody to be sacked for disregarding company policy, surely the two most reprehensible things are firstly that he wasn't respected for putting safety first, and secondly that he was apparently not given the chance to explain himself.

Surely, at the very least he should have been hauled in front of the chief pilot (even if he was THEN sacked).


I'm sure that there's far more to the story than we can read here, but if the story in the link is close to being correct, I'm firmly with N380UA. I hope that the fellow rapidly finds new employment with a more conscientious airline.

G

[LX-GB1]

That some bean counter has the cojones to question a captains decision in what he deemed a safety relevant issue over revenue shows where their priority lays.

As a bean-counter I think the above is rubbish. Who said the bean-counter fired the captain.

We bean-counters count beans and tell management how many beans they have. Management defines and implements policy, not bean-counters.

I agree that the company should be black-listed.

[big fraidy cat]

Excuse me, maybe I am picking nits, but what does 'company policy' mean exactly? This includes safety / technical issues? That is absurd!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Presumably company policy includes an MEL.

A question I'd be interested to hear answered would be (a) was he within the MEL, and (b) how similar is the company MEL and Airbus' MMEL?

G

[LX-GB1]

Any business needs to decide on its objectives and how it will fulfill them. It has to make choices and it will decide a set of policies to follow in order to help the decision-making process so that everybody knows which way to go.

Ryanair's objectives and related policies are not those of BA.

Ryanair has chosen not to do a whole raft of things to be able to provide lower fares. Ryanair provides no in-flight food and only sandwiches and warm beer. BA seems to have a policy of having only one main i-f food supplier who can bring its whole operation to a grinding halt!

On a more serious note, some airlines have a policy of taking every modification and update provided by the manufacturer and fitting it to the existing aircraft - others do not.

If you buy a s/h jumbo from BA built ten years ago, you will get a plane with all the latest equipment with the airframe of a plane 10 years old. If you buy a ten year old jumbo from a black african airline, that is what you will get - a plane with everything 10 years old. Please do not blame the black-bean-counters.

Which aircraft will be safer?

Hope that helps.

[catchup]

It still rests with the commander to refuse an aircraft, even if MEL would allow it.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Absolutely - but having declined to fly (or on occasion, elected to fly) any commander must expect to have to explain and defend that decision. The MEL is certainly significant to that explanation.

G

[M.Mouse]

Surely the MEL only applies prior to dispatch, inflight reference is primarily the Boeing Quick Reference Handbook (QRH) or other manufacturer's equivalent?

As with most of these stories we are probably only hearing half the facts.

[N380UA]

LX-GB1

As a bean-counter I think the above is rubbish. Who said the bean-counter fired the captain.

You are right of course. The bean counter didn’t actually execute the firing of the skipper. But:

Any business needs to decide on its objectives and how it will fulfill them. It has to make choices and it will decide a set of policies to follow in order to help the decision-making process so that everybody knows which way to go.

The BC will tell the management that the return of the flight to Paris, lose of rev. lose of image, initial maintenance, ferry flight to Djerba, further maintenance, a/c downtime and repositioning to the line will cost so-and-so many kUSD. And its all the captains fault. All of this is obviously not in keeping with the objectives set by the business.

G

I don’t have the Fly Air's MEL but the CAAs MMEL can be found online.
Haven't hade the chance to read it up though.


A300 MMEL (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?categoryid=33&pagetype=65&applicationid=11&mode=list&type=sercat&id=16)

[LX-GB1]

N380UA

So I guess we will just have to kill the messenger who brought the bad news!

[unwiseowl]

For the A300-600 (and most twins, in fact), dispatch with an engine driven generator inop is permissible, provided the APU generator is used throughout the flight.

[garp]

This story made the headlines here as the PIC, age 46, is Belgian. The company was going to give more details today. There were three other major incidents during the past ten days of which one was an emergency landing in Boucarest (?).

[ironbutt57]

The preamble to any MEL I've ever seen includes the option for the commander to refuse the aircraft, regardless of the legality of the release...adviseable to have done your homework before doing so, but nevertheless...an option...hopefully this non-standard configuration requiring additional fuel would have been dealt with prior to takeoff no???

[Genghis the Engineer]

Looking at the CAA MMEL, a single engine or APU equipped generator may be U/S for non-ETOPS flights, provided that all indications on the alternate are normal, all busses can be powered and the faulty item is rectified within three days.

Conjecting wildly, one can see a Captain seeing that if he took the aircraft, the generator wouldn't be replaced within the 3 day interval - and his management feeling otherwise. (Which, just to repeat, doesn't change the fact that the Captain has responsibility to accept or decline the aircraft.)

G




AC Power Supply Note: All indicators and warnings may
be inoperative on a channel
considered inoperative.



Engine Driven Generator
Channels (IDG, GCU, Line
Contractor)

Except for ETOPS operations, one
may be inoperative provided:

(a) APU and APU driven generator
channels are operative and used
throughout the duration of the flight,

(b) All busses can be powered,

(c) Indications and warnings for the
remaining engine, and APU driven
generator channels are operative, and

(d) Repairs or replacements are carried
out within three calendar days.

Note: No further alleviation is given.



APU Driven Generator Channel

Except for ETOPS operations beyond
120 minutes, may be inoperative provided:

(a) The STBY generator is operative, and

(b) Repairs or replacements are carried
out within three calendar days.


(from http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_ACP_A300-600_REV3A.PDF , page 31)

[garp]

The company is just out with a statement in which they say that the pilot got sacked because of
a/ unlawful absence during the past months
b/ alcohol intoxication causing delay

[Genghis the Engineer]

Assuming that's true, it proves that one shouldn't jump to conclusions!

G

[Hunter58]

Assuming nothing the company should still be banned since (at least in my understanding of the 'informatin' provided) they knew the CPT was intoxicated before they let him take the flight that returned (this now assuming that the company does actually say the truth about the captains intoxication).

The problem now is that should the company try to put some public attention on the CPT (in order to have a more peaceful and quiet time for themselves not to follow procedures ((and I am assuming here too)) ), then they should be not only banned but forced to permanently end operations with mamagement becoming no-go's for any new start-up bcause they actually first try to ruin a career deliberatly by untruthful statements in order to cover up...

Now since that again is speculation, what we really would need is the complete story.

[N380UA]

garp

lets hope for the management of that outfit that their statement is true and not "misinterpreted" as PIC was down with the flue (absence) and had taken Vicks MediNight (alcohol).

Either which way, if the skipper was in violation of the charges brought up against him, them why was he allowed to take the flight after the fact and even allowed to ferry to Djerba?

So the airline, their management, is in fact a hazard to the sky. Either for their action of putting revenue over safety or for letting intoxicated crews fly the big heavy stuff.

[CAT1]

Airline denies pilot's statement on dismissal
Thu 01/09/05 - The Turkish charter flight company, Fly Air, is not pleased with Peter Thys's unfair dismissal claim. According to Fly Air, the true reasons for the pilot's sacking are long-term absence and alcohol abuse.

Shortly after taking off from Paris last week, Thys noticed a technical problem and returned to the runway for an emergency repair. Later the pilot was informed by Fly Air that he was sacked for breach of company policy.

Yesterday Thys claimed that he had been dismissed for following standard safety procedure.

Today the airline company replied in a communiqué saying that the Paris incident had nothing to do with the pilot's sacking. Fly Air stated that his long-term absence and a flight's delay because of alcohol abuse are the true reasons.

Fly Air's ground operations manager in Brussels claimed on Wednesday that Thys's dismissal came as a result of personal problems between the pilot and the company.

[Pointer]

France are moving towards dissmissing airlines who have bad maintanence reputations...

Fly Air flight returns to france with tech problem... (no need to speculate if this is wrong or right)

Airline fears loss of face... and beiing put on the black list...

So to send message to pilots; sacks expendable contract pilot (whom has been giving them "problems" anyway, because he actualy follows the procedures to the letter, which is not flexible enough in their eyes)...

then Fly Air's worst nightmare comes to life... it gets picked up by the news media....

Fly Air fabricate charges (which they can not hold up) to save their reputation, knowing the public does not like to hear about drunken pilots...

Hmmm maybe not so far fetched???

Pointer :E

[Genghis the Engineer]

Many of us have on occasion been rude about aviation journalism here from time to time.

Here would be a good opportunity for an aviation journalist to prove both their aviation, and journalistic credentials. There's a story here, and the facts are far from clearcut.


Question is, will anybody rise to the challenge?

G

[MaxBlow]

The aircraft was was an A300B2 (no center tanks).
I also hear that he was bound to ORY when the genny quit.

So there you are. Leave baggage to get all the fuel you need to fly lower (an apu with a history of shutting down) or ask them to replace a the gen.

Pointer, I believe you hit the nail on his head.

[Farrell]

N380UA......

Well pointed out.

Thoughts go out to the pilot if he's being scapegoated.

[FlapsOne]

Given that most of what we read in the press and see/hear on the media about our profession is complete and utter b0££0ck$ - (we make that point often enough on these fora!) - I would suggest that there is a better than 50% chance that:

a: we only have about 2% of the story
and
b: that 2% is probably not accurate!!!!

[alterego]

Don't know all the facts but this seems to be a case of pressurising pilots into taking risks.

Best wishes to the pilot concerned.