Birds

[muffin]

Feathered ones.. .. .Last weekend I was doing my annual LPC with a very wise and experienced examiner.. .Towards the end of it, he had me poling fast round the airfield at 20 odd feet to practice. .driving with no feet. In the course of this, I lost my sense of direction somewhat. As a consequence,. .when he told me to turn into wind I had lost track of where the wind was, and said so.. .. .He then told me to look at the birds, who were sitting everywhere on low wire fences. .running across the field.. .. .In 20 years of aviating, I never knew that birds face into wind in case they need to take off. .in a hurry. Several other flyers who I have mentioned this to did not know it either.. .. .You learn something new every day.

[C4]

Cows also graze facing into wind!!!

[heedm]

Birds were sitting everywhere across the field.. .. .Ummmmm....maybe you shouldn't have been flying around at 20 ft? A good percentage of birdstrikes should not be called accidents. When you fly where birds are known to be it becomes more Darwinian than bad luck.. .. .Yesterday we were flying 500 ft just off the west coast of Canada. Copilot flying suddenly banks hard right. I look up to see a very large eagle also bank right. We roll left and dive. He (I saw proof it was a male by now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ) also rolled left and flared. The eagle, now terribly frightened and spread eagle had an H46 pass below him with about 3 ft clearance from the forward rotor. We braced for the thump of eagle on aft pylon, but heard nothing. Lucky day for all 6 of us (5 crew, 1 eagle).. .. .Lesson: Eagles own 500 and below during herring season.

[Nick Lappos]

muffin,. .Your instructor's tip is a sound one, but the birds align with the wind not because of the need for rapid take-off, but rather that they can't do otherwise without risking life and limb. If parked downind, their feathers bloom open and their drag increases considerable, so that they can be torn lose from their perches and tumbled. Into the wind, they streamline quite nicely, and their low drag, based on 100,000,000 years of good design and development (any Creationists out there? Sorry!) make it imperitive that they help you find the wind direction.

[Steve76]

You will also find that horses and drystock stand with their backsides into wind, often in a queue to shelter each other.. .Now as for sheep ..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .SETTLE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[RW-1]

I freaking hate birds .... Just don't ask. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

[Heli-Ice]

Those birds can tell you a lot if you know their habits.. .. .Have you ever wondered why they fly very low in heavy winds and turbulence?. .. .One of my friends who flies helo's told me that birds avoid you when you fly at 60 kts or slower.. .. .I like birds, most of them taste very good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Devil 49]

Birds, cows and other animals will usually face the wind. Not always. Take another look around, folks.

[RW-1]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> One of my friends who flies helo's told me that birds avoid you when you fly at 60 kts or slower. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Uh ... not in my case. See my post above. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[B Sousa]

OK, Who has the equation for measuring wind speed by the distance from where a bird craps and where it hits the ground while sitting on a wire at 100'. .I guess one whould have to also know the weight and density of the disposed item.. . Is anyone sure its not cows who put their asses in the wind??...Also, in the Northern Hemisphere moss grows on which side of the trees?? Got some great birdstrike stories also....

[helmet fire]

Had a crewman once who took a birdstrike to the helmet whilst looking out the side of the aircraft in an attempt to see the bird we were trying to avoid!! He saw it alright! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .My experience has been that gritting your teeth and staying on course is a good safe bet because birds tend to be far more adept at evasive manoeuvres than us - and then I dont have to get in a guessing game with them about which way to swerve! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .I thought cows tend to stay nose into wind in warm weather to increase ventilation, crosswind in temperate conditions to reduce the possibilities of re injestion of either burps or farts, and arse into wind in cold weather to enjoy the warmth of their excrement. And dont they lie down before the rain? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[MightyGem]

One of my observers took a birdstrike on his helmet, not so long ago. Mind you he was doing 90 down the motorway on his bike at the time!

[ShyTorque]

Birds have been seen on radar at 26,000 feet. Whatever height you go to, they were there first.

[Aesir]

It has been my experience when flying in areas with high bird concentration i.e. coastal areas with large groups of birds using the updrafts of inland winds from up to 1000m (3000´) rock cliffs that flying at speeds at or under 60 kts will give them enough time to notice you and get out of the way. If you have to fly in bird areas you usually are doing a job which requires you to fly at slower speeds anyway f.eks. filmwork, exploration, seal counting or such. Birds in these ares are of course vigilant and awake since they are hanggliding and probably hunting for food.
If flying at these slower speed I find that its usually better to let the bird get out of the way self, if he sees you, avoid though flying under birds, depending in race theyr first instinct is often to dive when startled.

However birds can be anywhere at any altitude. One friend of mine that used to fly a Super Puma actually had a birdstrike from above, it came through the roof window just in front of the throttle quadrant, the carcass stopped in the throttles and the insides continued all over the radios, instruments and pilots, they sure where happy to have the helmets on and clear visor down.

I find the birds of prey to be the worst, Hawks and such tend to take a break and fall asleep while flying. I have only had 3 birdhits in 3600hrs and two of those were with hawks at 1500 and 3000 feet. Needless to say I´m glad that the windshield in the Bell 222U that I fly now can withstand a 2 lbs birdstrike at 150 kts.

Walter

[Aesir]

Remember to let the birds help you to determine the wind direction if you are in a area where its difficult to find where the wind is blowing from.

Birds will usually always take off or land into the wind expecially larger birds like Geese. So if you´re heavy and not particurlarly interested in getting into settling with power, get some assist from the birds around you, check which way they are landing and taking off or if you have some cliffs nearby see on which side they are hanggliding.

It never fails and is easy to observe while flying.

[Whirlybird]

I've just been doing some mountain flying in California, and was told the same thing. I never ever knew that before. Really helps when you have no smoke or water or trees or windsocks.

[Flying Lawyer]

Muffin
Was your examiner Mike Smith @ HeliAir by any chance?
I ask because he gave me that tip during a LPC. Seems so obvious, after someone's pointed it out.
I've done a few check rides with him and I've learnt something new every time.

Nick Lappos
It's not often you get something wrong. Of coujrse birds were created, just like evrything else in this world. :)

[t'aint natural]

Mike Smith pulled that one with me, too... demonstrated by putting one skid on a fencepost and turning into wind as we moved forward!

[bigdog1971]

Hey C4... the only reson that cows graze into wind is because they are the greatest producer of methane gas in the world!.. Now that would be enough to keep my head upwind as well...:o

[muffin]

FL

Yes it was Mike Smith actually. I find flying with him fascinating.

He also did the fence post trick with me.

[Off road]

One of my collegues had a swallow go through the wind screen and landed on his passenger's lap. The helicopter being a Schweizer 330.

Another good reason to wear a helmet.
Safe flying;)

[MaxNg]

t ait natural and Muffin

His role as check pilot is to check, and also raise standards wherever posible, standards that this poorly regulated side of the industry so desperatly needs.
Tudor, I am surprised at you finding his antics informative,
Ask yourseves this what did you learn in these exercises ?
If the engine had failed when balancing on the post what was the probable outcome ?
I can say that he has not pulled any of these stunts with me, if he did Tudor you might find yourself defending him or me for GBH.

RANT OVER

I hope

This post has been edited to remove personal and offensive comments about someone whose name has already been mentioned, and who is a very well known Examiner and Instructor in the UK.
Criticism of the demonstration described by Muffin and t'aint natural remain as posted.

Heliport

[Flying Lawyer]

MaxNg

I can only speak as I find.
My experiences of him have not only been enjoyable, but also very rewarding. The 'birds' tip is just one of many.
I know nothing about the fencepost demonstration so won't comment on that.

Tudor Owen

PS
I take the point you make in your 'signature', but surely his 23,000+ hours must help a little! :D

[CRAN]

I agree whole-heartedly with the hard-liners that say that helicopters should be flown two the book 100% of the time. In an ideal world this would be the case and this would be adequate for safe operations.

However, let's consider some human factors and the type of people that Mike Smith will spend most of his time teaching and examining - UK PPL's. These guys typically will not necessarily have any special aptitude for helicopter flight (though of course some will), just the desire to fly or surplus money!

For low time inexperienced pilots I feel that confidence in their ability and the machine will be low (compared to that of more experienced pilots). This in turn can be a major contributing factor in events leading to accidents - 'trying too hard', being tense and uneasy in the air, distracted by trivial details etc, etc.

Flying with someone with the supreme level of confidence of Mike Smith and other such characters in the UK and overseas can significantly improve the confidence of low-timers and hence allow them to relax more at the controls and be safer pilots.

Okay - so what happens if the engine did fail? Well it wouldn't surprise me that with MS at the controls if he were to put it on the deck without a scratch but if the worst comes to the worst from 4ft with zero ground speed you going to have a controlled crash and walk away.

Considering the unlikeness of an engine failure without warning and then the fact that an engine failure with this pilot won't be as bad as it could be then I feel that the benefits outweigh the dangers.

I believe a different more formal approach is necessary for commercial check-rides, but given the unique nature of helicopter flying in the UK and the PPL students it attracts, I think this is a justified pilot development approach under the circumstances.

CRAN

[Hoverman]

I agree 100% with Cran's very balanced analysis, and his conclusion. I can't better the reasons he gave.

[ChitChat]

Something slightly different.

I read somewhere that a guy learnt to fly a heli in the Andes by watching a condor. It taught him where the downdrafts were and how to fly pinnicle approaches. It is actually facinating watching a bird approach a small pond. They appear to fly recces and setup approaches into wind.

[MaxNg]

Heliport and fellow pruners

I did not bring up this subject, I just responded to the content and if my singleing out of this one person has caused upset to anyone then please accept my apology.

HOWEVER

There are far better ways of instilling confidence in those that need it without the un-necessery risks that these alledged ( Is that the proper caveat Tudor) demonstations expose people to.

Cran you said

"However, let's consider some human factors and the type of people that Mike Smith will spend most of his time teaching and examining - UK PPL's. These guys typically will not necessarily have any special aptitude for helicopter flight (though of course some will), just the desire to fly or surplus money!

For low time inexperienced pilots I feel that confidence in their ability and the machine will be low (compared to that of more experienced pilots). This in turn can be a major contributing factor in events leading to accidents - 'trying too hard', being tense and uneasy in the air, distracted by trivial details etc, etc. "

You mentioned human factor's

When teaching, the relationship between teacher and student is similar to that of the "parent / child relationship" and like any child the challenge is to emulate it's teacher thus seeking approval from them, THERE LIES THE DANGER !!!!!!!!!
How many children have hurt other children whilst emulating there peers

How on god's earth can trying to operate the aircraft in the maner that it is approved for be a contributory factor in a accident.

Confidence is what the instructor pilot should show to the student in every execise that is demonstrated this confidence will allow the student to relax and learn the task at hand in a more efficient and costworthy manner not only in direct cost to the student but an indirect cost to the rest of the industry in low accident rates and insurance claims.

QUOTE

"Okay - so what happens if the engine did fail? Well it wouldn't surprise me that with MS at the controls if he were to put it on the deck without a scratch but if the worst comes to the worst from 4ft with zero ground speed you going to have a controlled crash and walk away."

If you think that someone can defy the laws of physics just because they have a loads of hours, then you and them are heading for a wake up call, I just hope that youre right.

If these stories are typical flying club barstool brags, blown all out of proportion in the vein attempt to get to impress a audiance then I guess I have ranted for nothing but I will not apologise for having standards

over

[Draco]

In my limited experience the helicopter world is very small and has a disporportionate number of strong-minded, well known individuals.

People form opinions on these 'celebs' often based on third-hand stories rather than personal expriences. As such, I think that any criticism of these celebs should remain what it is, bar-room talk between individuals rather than on a public forum.

Yes, let's talk about the limts of what is demonstrated or taught to students and low-time PPLs, but avoid the personality issue.

So to go back to the subject;

In my PPL GFT I gently took the helicopter into a vortex ring and recovered quickly. The examiner (nameless, but very well known) said "that's not a real VR", climbed back up again and took it into a really fully developed VR. Wild :eek: :eek:

Taught me a good lesson to keep clear VRs, but I did wonder whether it put massive strain on the machine. any thoughts?

[MaxNg]

Draco

There is nothing wrong in what your instructor demonstrated to you, and the extra demo was well worth it to you and everyone else.
As for any maintainance implications from such a demo as long as Rrpm is maintained there should not be any undo stress to effect, and as there are no post flight maintanance requirements after such a incursion then rest easy with a well learnt lesson.

The main point of my rant was lost on you and that is, any demonstration should idealy be briefed and discussed in the classroom before hand, and then flown with a suitable margin of safety.

there are quite a few "Traps" that a experianced instructor can set that will bring home to the student the ease at which you can get into trouble in a helicopter whilst maintaining a margin of safety.

here's one such trap that catches quite a few

When the student is convinced that they fully understand the causes and recovery from VR (settling with power) and have covered to satisfaction exercise 15. Then on your next flight (cloud base permitting) take a camera with you and on your way back to base from the new exercise choose somthing to photograph, get them to orbit several times and pressure them to tighten the orbit and slow down so you can get you're shot ( they will very quickly get involved with what you are trying to achieve ) when you next come into the downwind position tell them stop here!!! thats my shot, and then watch what happens next.

Who whould have thought it !!!!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

[Whirlybird]

MaxNg,

A very good point about distraction and vortex ring. It nearly happened to me as a newish PPL - flying into a Rally with a friend, she's taking photos, people on the ground waving and cheering, me wondering desperately where to land away from kids and dogs, and I nearly came to a hover at 500 ft without realising it. :eek: Taught me just how easy it is, when there's a lot going on.

This thing about under-confident PPLs...When I started learning to fly helicopters I had a f/w licence, like quite a lot of us. And like quite a lot of us I felt comfortable in the air, far too comfortable for my ability in helicopters. I was at a school where confidence seemed to be especially emphasised and even praised (or maybe it was just with me, because we all know women have no confidence now don't we?). Anyway, it took a potentially disastrous and rather expensive incident (I'll tell you all about it some day, but not yet) for me to realise just how little I really knew about helicopters. The point I'm making is that people who fly helicopters are individuals, and all different, and should be treated as such. And over-confidence is probably far more dangerous than under-confidence, or so I would have thought.

[Red Wine]

Emu's can't fly....or sit on fences...........downwind approach , here I come....!!!:confused: