Radar Simulation Facilities

[VectorLine]

This is really a question for non NATS folk. Cause NATS have plenty of these.

Do other units have their own simulation facilities, or is all training on live radar (post college training)? What about training for new procedures/airsace?

If not, where do you go to use sims?

Would there be a use for an ATC simulator, complete with support staff (psuedo pilots, tech assistance etc..) that could load up your airspace and run simulations with your own OJTI/LCE staff?

How about this then? - an ATC simulator and aircraft simulator co-located and interoperating. So an airline running a sim check would show as one of the aircraft in an ATC simulation. Imagine the TRUCE value....

It would be a bit like a professional development of the VATSIM/MS Flightsim arrangement.


Cost and Technical restrictions aside - do you think either of these two facilties would be of value to the industry?

[Gonzo]

Interesting.

Our new 360 degree tower sim being installed now is for our exclusive use up to 2008 (I believe) and then it will be available for all NATS airports to book time at, and they can load up their own exercises. I'd imagine loading up different airspace in a radar sim would be, in comparison, cheap as chips!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I would not think that there would be much benefit to aircraft and/or ATC simulators because the exercises carried out on one simulator would, 99 times out of 100, not require the input of the other.

A great deal of pilot training is concerned with flying the aeroplane, handling emergencies, etc. These rarely require ATC input and what little is required can easily be handled by the aircrew instructors. ATC simulators require many "aircraft" so having just one slightly more realistic one available would not justify the expense involved.

Just my feelings - probably hideously wrong!

[david.2020]

There are companies who have linked ATC simulation and Flight simulators before. In fact, DFS had a project to do just that years ago and still use it today (been upgraded recently).

And lately, NASA Ames future flight centre has a similair facility ... but mostly for evaluation of procedures purposes rather than training. Check out their website.

A great facilty . Why not have the same in the UK?

[Gonzo]

The problem with linking up ATC sims and a/c sims for training is the usefulness or otherwise of having trainee ATCOs and trainee pilots interacting with each other while they're trying to get to grips with their own tasks...trying to run before they can walk? Using such a set up for procedure development etc might be less prone to problems.

[ETOPS]

In a way this already happens.

Many of the MS Flitesim groups have linked "virtual ATC" using similar software for realtime "controlling" of all those bedroom 747's.

Quite a few people I know log-on for a shift at their PC and spend half the night talking to PC pilots all around the world.........

Hours at a time.................

:hmm:

[Scott Voigt]

Director;

I must disagree... I find that the training that pilots get both in the sim and in the classroom in how to deal with ATC and how the system actually works is totally lacking, and as we move into the new world of GPS and RNAV approaches, departures and arrivals, it is getting worse. We need to if not hook the sims (don't think that will happen.) at least get the sim instructors to be MUCH BETTER informed as to the actual workings of ATC and how they must apply it to the people that they are doing checks on. I see many folks with thousands of hours of flight time who fly commercially who "think" that they do know how the system works and how we ply our trade. After a day in class, the find out that they were wrong and have attested to it...

regards

Scott

[KiloKilo]

The aim of both sims are so different.
For ATCO-sims it is the aim to get a lot of aircraft passing in little time, yet the sectors are not to big. Meaning that in the sim the average time you have an ACFT on FQ is about 10 min.
To link to sims together (which both cost a fortune) so they can work together for 10 mins and than only acting for 1 ACFT is not really worthwhile at least for the ATCO-sim.
And I don't think you will get any economic calculation to justify linking 2 of those sims.

As for info on sims. I know of 3 different facilities within our organisation. Two of them also bookable for other organisations.

The other way that ACFT-sims get a better ATC interface could be interesting, however a couple of good lectures with some ATCO's will pretty much give you a good picture.

Another reason why it is so nice to have FAM-flights and FAM-visits. The better we appreciate eachothers' job the better things will go.
So pilots feel free to go to an ATC-center and have a look but also try to be open for ATCO interest.
A good talk and show-around is mostly a big eye-opener.