Canada or HKG?

[bobrun]

Hi to all,

If you had the option to go work for Air Canada or Cathay Pacific, what would you choose and why?

I'm curious to hear from AC pilots especially.

Happy landings.

[777300ER]

Do you think AC pilots are going to tell you that they would rather be at CX? At the end of the day, I rate jobs on two things. Pay and Lifestyle. CX wins hands down on pay. Lifestyle however is a toss up. For some living in Hong Kong and using it is a home base to travel the world is an exciting prospect. For others the idea of leaving Canada is terrifying. If you fall into the 1st group, than its CX hands down. If not, then I guess AC it is.

Cheers

[ea340]

Suprise AC driver here I agree with 777300ER . Air Canada and Westjet are for those that can not leave Canada. I know several current and past AC pilots who have left and are glad they did more money better life style . Two I know have left in the last four monhs. I know a couple at CX who wish they were here so it is a matter of choice . If I was 25 again I would be in Europe with a major and yes I know the costs I'am there four times a month still better life style .

[meaw]

Bobrun,

There is a thread on this exact topic on the fragrant harbour forum that dates back about 2-3 months, you should do a search and find it as it was a long and sometimes heated debate on AC vs.CX.It was somewhat CX biased as it was not on the Canadian forum so it might be interesting to have it here also.

Before we get into it though, the most important thing to know is what are you looking for in your life and carreer?

Both places are very good options for different reasons but once again....what drives you ? (and your family)

[bobrun]

It would seem that those in favor of CX based their decision on $$$ mainly....

Looking at the two pay scales, CX does pay better. However, if you take a base in Canada (with CX) the difference isn't that much it would seem. Also, if you take into consideration the quick command upgrade time that one can anticipate with AC if hired at this time (800 retirements at AC...), you could actually be ahead with AC (compared to CX on a Canadian base) in 5-10 years time.

But maybe I'm missing something....

:confused:

[Hairy Chest]

Read up on the rapidly dropping stds of living in Hong Kong, lowest grade of food at unreal prices, property went up by 30% in last 1 yr.
Be care full !

[Saltaire]

Just ask many of those that own property in HK, which is paid by the company how they feel? 30% increase........of course, the last ten years has provided many surprises in the market.

Too bad Toronto is the main base for AC......if YVR was it, then I'd say AC would be a closer second, but Cathay is such a superior company over the sprectrum. No comparison in my mind....

[Thunderbird4]

This is easy. CX 744 YVR based. nuf said

[bobrun]

Thunderbird4,

I have to agree with you! However, how long does it takes before being able to get a base in YVR after starting as S/O in HKG? Is 5-6 years still a good guess?

[Trader]

...you will not be uprading at AC in 5-10 years unless its on the RJ.

[meaw]

Trader,

Yes you will be in the left seat and no ,not on the CRJ as they are leaving.You have great chances of being Capt on the EMJ in 5 years or less.
Today , as we speak, having just gone through CCAA, a nasty career damaging merger,SARS, 9-11, in other words the darkest time in our history , the most junior EMJ captain has 5.5 years in the company.That's before another 45 EMJ come on line, not to mention new widebodies and 120 retirements per year.

I think that it will be like the late nineties when DC9 captains had 4 years in the company and the junior 320 capt had 5-6 years.

I think that if you join today 4 years down the road you will be making the choice to either go FO on a widebody or Capt.

[Penske]

I am with Cathay after leaving Air Canada.

For me, the best thing Air Canada ever did was go bankrupt. This forced us junior people to rethink our career path which led me to Cathay.

With the exception of staff travel, Cathay is far and above Air Canada in every category.

Air Canada is a very safe, predictable career. I am far more pessimistic than meaw above, but if you are happy in Toronto, you will have reasonable prospects for promotion, albeit while earning a very mediocre wage. If you want to live in Vancouver, you will commute for many years before you can hold a relief pilot position on base. From that point, you will have little chance for promotion for god knows how long.

Good luck.

[meaw]

Penske,

I am glad to hear that the move was good for you.I am not saying Cathay is not a good option for some, far from it,for some it might be a much better move (assuming you have offers from both on the table). However, even though you may think CX is superior to AC, I don't disagree with you because I have not worked at CX, but bear in mind that in this debate there is much much more than just the airline in question but where and how you will live, wether it be HKG or a commute to the U.S.You have to look at the whole package , also what kind of labor laws do you have there , unions , etc....

Bobrun, once again it's all about what you want from life and your career.Both options are excellent but very different and unless you are like Penske and have to resign AC, you always have the option to come back to AC if you want and they are Hiring.
I know guys who went to CX and love it.I also know guys who went there after C3 went under and are miserable (not necessarily because of the company but because they miss Canada, their family , friends).
I also know some ex CX guys here at AC and none regret coming back. Again it could be for you or not but you have to tell us what drives you

Bobrun,

By the way how old are you and what kind of job do you have know?What about family status?

[pitotman]

meaw,


Dude,

I work for AC and I am over on a contract with China Airlines at the moment. I have ALOT of friends at Cathay and half love it half hate it.......the bottom line is "know what’s important to you and your family" we pay a heavy price to live in Canada and I for one do not have a problem paying that. I have spent the last five years between yvr and Asia and I can tell you in my view you can not put a price on the healthy living and lifestyle we enjoy in Canada.

Know that if you got CX you will potentially make a lot of money and you will potentially come out ahead........you could also be fired like the 49ers and then it would all be trivial anyways. CX offers more remuneration and AC offers job security!

CX pays less than CAL as a 744 freighter FO but the housing is the difference.......but ya still have to live in HK. We have had a couple guys leave AC in the last few years to CX and I know a lot of them and I am sure I know the reasoning. CX is a financially viable entity .......where old AC is just an ENTITY! I think the biggest determining factor here is how old are you and what are you looking for.............? My line of thought is......... go to the first one that gives you the job and make the best out of either situation...!

My best mate went to CX as I joined AC and if I can say I am definitely the happier of the two…………

[Saltaire]

Working for CAL as an FO would certainly be challenging on all fronts....not a postion one would envy. I would hope you could get back to AC ASAP.


"CX pays less than CAL as a 744 freighter FO but the housing is the difference"

That is completely incorrect. CX for the same postion ie: FO would pay far more than than an FO with CAL. Only a very junior SO with CX would make less than a CAL FO.

"you could also be fired like the 49ers and then it would all be trivial anyways. CX offers more remuneration and AC offers job security!"

On the other hand, this statement is true and worth good consideration. You are a lot more exposed as an expat.

Meaw said.

"I also know guys who went there after C3 went under and are miserable (not necessarily because of the company but because they miss Canada, their family , friends)."

C3 went bankrupt !! You must be kidding.....from C3 to Cathay ? Ya, I'm sure it would be a terrible sacrifice.....missing friends and family is one issue but I know a few that are there, and there are only a handful and they all feel very thankful for the opportunity. One is almost ready for FRT'er command.....

I would think in a few years AC will be looking much better and perhaps quicker commands are forthcoming on the EMB'r, but if you want to live in YVR it would be a different story.

To each this own and as mentioned, make the best of any opportunity. It would be nice to seen good expansion and movement in every airline....

[meaw]

Saltaire,

I 'm sure they're grateful and all, but I will give you an example of one of them's reason for unhappyness.......Imagine you're in HKG living it up with CX .......then someone from your family (mother,father , sister etc....) falls ill with something like cancer or one of your close friends and you want to be there for your family but you cant unless you have vacation or quit.

Then you put things in perspective.......even if it did get you a command on the freighter

[bobrun]

Thanks for all your inputs. I have no doubts that both are great airlines.

Living in Canada is probably AC main advantage.......but then again YVR and YYZ are two bases with CX, and would be available after several years if home sick.....

Meaw, to answer your question, single and 31.

Happy landings.

[nudger]

Saltaire.

You are incorrect my friend.

The pay at CX as a freighter FO is (albeit very marginally) less than a CAL FO.

CX Year 1 Freighter FO = $5292.00 USD/ month. (no 13th month)

CAL Year 1 FO = $5400.00 USD/ month.

Not that I'm advocating going to CAL!

[Penske]

$5292/mo + 15.5% provident fund + per diems of approx $100 per day.

Not sure how China Airlines compares with the extra bits.

[Saltaire]

Ah yes........the Freighter pay, almost forgot about that. Sorry, speaking of mainline.......

In any case, even the Frieghter pay, which was a real problem when it was introduced, as Penske mentioned, just tipped the scales for CX, but I guess it's bacically the same. To put it in perspective, a B scale FO mainline makes the same as a Freighter Captain.......

Meaw, your point is very specific but I do understand and it could be an issue but......

To answer your question Bobrun, especially if you're single, then there is no doubt you should want to work for CX.......believe me, I've worked for both. The reality is that you'll take whatever comes first and likely make the best of it. They are both top international airlines.

[777300ER]

Anyone that even attempts to compare China Airlines to Cathay is off their rocker. If the prospect of signing a 3yr bonded contract, having no fair advancement system in place for upgrading, scheduling, etc., being hated by most permanent employees, conducting 12hr+ flights in silence, and living in the ugliest city in Asia appeals to you, then I guess there could be a case made. Regarding the Freighter F/O pay - CAL F/O pay, the Freighter F/O would be living in North America or Europe (home) whereas the CAL F/O would most likely be living in Taipei. If you really want to compare the pay to CX, compare the HK mainline rates to the CAL rates. I think you will find that even a new joining S/O at CX does better when all things are considered.

[meaw]

Bobrun,

Single,31, not with AC? I would be very tempted to go to CX but I ask again what are you looking for in your career an d in life?

[delta x-ray]

Which of CX's aircraft are based in Canada? Between CX and AC, Cathay gets points for salary. But which of the 2 provides a better lifestyle? Are rosters stressfull for either of them.

[CanAV8R]

Having left Canada a few years back I will say this.

Although AC is hiring things in Canada are still pretty limited as to what you can do. At 30 now and in a large European company making 2-3 times the salary on the EMB at AC, I would not come home.

Given the choice between AC and CX I think CX would be a no brainier. Financially you and the company are in better situations. The down side is HK for some but from what I can see your time there could be limited if you choose so.

If you like Toronto, baking in the summer and freezing in the winter, high housing prices (I know HK is bad but CX pays), terrible traffic and least but not worst you must live amongst Leaf fans, then AC is for you. For left coasters YVR is a long wait so take CX in my humble opinion.

[meaw]

You really dont have to live in T.O, you can live anywhere you want.
Pilots here live everywhere in Canada from St-John's to Victoria.
Many live in the southern U"S and Carribean. A few courageous ones even do it from Europe.(They do that by bidding load beginning one month and load end the next month wich gives them a full month off)

Montreal is great , Halifax, or what about Quebec City , Calgary etc....

Cold winters? You can ski , skate, ski-doo, sit by the fireplace etc...
What about the suffocating heat of H.K?

High real-estate prices? Canada is still much cheaper than any 1st world european, asian country or the U.S for that matter.

If it's so bad here why has the U.N ranked Canada as #1 in the world for quality of life for quite a few years, wich I think last year we slipped to #2.

And yes the salary at A.C is slightly lower than C.X and some other european airlines but that is because the cost of living is almost double in Europe or Asia.

Can you rent a really nice 3 bedroom appartment for 900 $ in H.k or London?Of course not but here you can.
Compare apples with apples guys.

[CanAV8R]

Meaw you make some very valid points. I can not argue as I spent the first 25 years of my life living in Canada.

People that look at AC must look very long term (30 years) to see the returns that a pilot with CX or a Euro major will. If you want to dispute this I say this. CX has guys in the left seat in less than 10 years. In Europe Virgin would be an example of a 747/340 operator with captains with 6 years in the company. My guess is the most junior A340 skipper at AC has 20-25 years.

The point I am trying to make is this. Make more $$$ when you are young you have your debts gone quick, mortgage gone at a young age and the overall benefits of cash in your pocket when you are in your youth. Example: I bought a house a couple years back that will be paid off within 10 years or so and worth close to a million in todays CAD. I will probably trade up to a bigger one and so on. My pension is set for 55 and no later and will be in the same range as TODAYS retiring AC captain.

This brings up another point. The T's and C's at AC from 20 years ago are far different to what they are now. The new pay scale?? Pensions will be next on the block. The funny thing is nobody is talking about it.

Add to this crappy Canadian pension rules, high tax and a workforce that hates one another and in my mind you have a job that by Canadian standards is excellent, but by world standards is good, but far from the top.


Listen, I've got friends at AC, CX, EK and numerous carriers here in Europe. They all have their pluses but as many have found out, AC is not an easy gig to get. There are many that will never even get an interview.

Again this is an arguement that could go on forever but at least in my experience and others I know, a move overseas was a major boost to their aviation career. In my case I will come home to retire and look forward to it. In the mean time full speed ahead.

[Saltaire]

Your comparisons are noble but don't wash.......CX pays for rent so that point is moot. Slightly lower salary? Try seriously lower for the same years of service, not to mention the tax implications.

I've worked for AC and CX and as a single young guy asking the question, CX is the best option all things being equal.....if you have other considerations ie kids, family obligations, rich wife etc...then things could change, but the expat life is exciting and opens up a whole new world.....the Tim Horton's at Pearson on the other hand.......