The "real" Ryanair

[jumpy737]

I'm trying to get the lowdown on Ryanair. I had posted previously about DEC's and the response was somewhat negative (to say the least). The people that liked it were accused of being managers or not working for the company. Those that hated Ryanair were accused of not working there or bitter towards them in general. So I would like to hear from anyone that actually works at Ryanair. How bad could it be with good money and a fixed roster? The requirement for pilots is going to make the T&C's much more stable in the future so why all the fuss? Am I nieve in my assesment or is it really as bad as everyone says it is. They seem to be hiring a great number of pilots so someone must think it's a good place to work. I'm donning the flak jacket now and awaiting the barrage.

:ouch: :O

[bentover]

It's not good!
you wouldn't believe how bad it could be.
So come on in and see for yourself.

[niknak]

I really don't see the difference between wroking for Ryanair to get up the ladder, and doing what many pilots used to do by working for freight carriers to climb the career ladder - bot have comparabel circumstances.

I have a close friend who, after doing her ATPL at Oxford and many hours instructing, now flys for Ryanair.

She is very career orientated and has a long way to go.

However, in just over 2 years with the airline she has accumulated more hours and experince than she would have at any other airline, she's never exceeded duty limitations, she earns a good salary commensurate with hours worked, she knew what to expect when she accepted the job, she has to work hard and gets few fringe benefits, 3 months ago she got a command on the B738 - more pay - better working conditions.

She now has enough experience to be accepted by "The worlds favourite airline" and has been successful in doing so.
It goes without saying that her working life will be full of challenges from now on, but she's willing to accept that, work hard and reap the benefits later.

[Earthmover]

Ask her how they react to her going to the World's Favourite a few months after investing in her command - you'll be able to answer Jumpy's question slightly differently methinks.

[vfenext]

She got command after just over two years in FR having previously been a flight instructor on GA aircraft. Way to go FR, that's the kind of experience we have come to expect from your captains. Choose who you fly with very carefully people!

[tinpis]

1500+ hours and a command on 738?
Bugga me.

[normal_nigel]

Its alright.

Safety has never been better according to St. David of Learmount.

[klink]

tinpis, you think it was any different end '90s with most carriers booming? Come on.
And isn´t it the Irish authorities granting her the permission to command? Maybe you should then write a letter to the EASA with your complaint...:ok:
Good luck.

[Faire d'income]

And isn´t it the Irish authorities granting her the permission to command?

Dont think of the IAA as a proffessional authority in the CAA mould, think of them like this: http://scd.mm-a1.yimg.com/image/99351941

[Bart O'Lynn]

vfenext.
Nail on the head old chap, oh and theres the one about the new line trainer, had command for 4 months (300 lhs max)at another company. Breathes thru his gills as its dark up there. Real political animal, loves the boss and just a tad over three thousand hrs. Guess he Must have a wealth of experience t pass on, other than which mode button to press. Its just a matter of time before it gives. As for the iaa, ha, ever seen a ryr first aid kit. My german made car has a better one.

[klink]

If you guys' allegations re the IAA then take action!
Instead of standing on the sidelines watching and making comments about serious safety related accusations...
Get my drift?

[conor_mc]

vfenext, Faire d'income and Bart O'Lynn,

I have no interest in this case being a mere student PPL, but I find your comments about the young lady in question to be nothing short of offensive, to say the least.

You have no idea (nor do I) as to how competent a captain she may be, and to cast dispersions on her character/abilities because you don't like who she works for is despicable. There are many 25-year-old aircraft commanders in the military with live weapons at their fingertips - should that situation be disallowed also so that only 40+ year olds with "experience" are allowed to fly fast jets and attack helicopters?

As far as I am aware, a current ATPL is what is necessary to be awarded an airliner command. For that ATPL, you need 1500 hours. This young lady has that, and fair play to her.

Perhaps your enthusiasm for the issue of hours-to-command would be better served by voicing your opinions with the JAA who allow an ATPL to be awarded with 1500 hours, rather than slinging mud on an internet forum.

[Meeb]

Don't ya just love this website when a mere student PPL tells us all how it should be operating a 737 NG.... :rolleyes:

[click]

For that ATPL, you need 1500 hours.
Good. Always striving for minimum standards. She must be pretty hot to have melted the frozen ATPL so fast:E

[conor_mc]

Don't ya just love this website when a mere student PPL tells us all how it should be operating a 737 NG....

Don't be so patronising Meeb, this mere student PPL is also an adult who deserves to be treated as such.

And if you re-read my post, I did not tell you how it should be when operating a 737NG. What I did say was that if you have an issue with regulations which allow someone who you feel is too inexperienced to command an airliner, it should be taken up with the regulatory authorities rather than whinged about it on an internet forum.

You don't need 6,000 hours to apply a mature perspective to a perceived safety issue. Do as klink says - get on to the IAA if you feel there's a real issue here.

[Meeb]

It was you who used the term "mere student PPL", so do not try to put that onto me as patronising... :rolleyes:

You are maybe an adult, but you obviously have no idea how the aviation industry works, on both sides of the fence...

And the rest of your retort proves my original post... sorry if you take exception to that old boy, but maybe you should have thought through your post before hitting the post button!

[ROKAPE]

conor_mcI have no interest in this case being a mere student PPL BUT you feel the need to post...

conor_mcThere are many 25-year-old aircraft commanders in the military with live weapons at their fingertips - should that situation be disallowed also so that only 40+ year olds with "experience" are allowed to fly fast jets and attack helicopters? The 25 YO's do not have 180 people behind them. The 25 YO's are required to 'damage' people/assets. Big difference.

[conor_mc]

Could you guys be more condescending.

Meeb:

It was you who used the term "mere student PPL", so do not try to put that onto me as patronising...

The patronising part was to denigrate my opinion with my own clear admission and then say I was telling you how to run a 737NG. I clearly wasn't. I was pointing out that this was a regulatory issue. I think I'm qualified to comment on common sense, despite not having 6000 hours in my log book. So again, if you have a serious issue with a 25yo with 1500hrs TT being awarded a command, should you be sniggering about it on an internet forum or actually trying to have the issue addressed through appropriate channels?

Rokape:

BUT you feel the need to post...

You misinterpreted my use of the work "interest" - to put it into context, I meant that I didn't feel the need to defend Ryanair as someone who worked there might. Obviously, I have an interest in aviation matters, else I wouldn't be here on PPRuNe, no?

The 25 YO's do not have 180 people behind them. The 25 YO's are required to 'damage' people/assets. Big difference.

Really? I'd imagine on a training sortie, that the 25yo military pilot is not supposed to damage people/assets. In fact, given that they would be performing more intricate manouevres at higher speeds than your average airliner, surely these youngsters need to demonstrate 'command' authority in making split-second decisions. Or what about a 25yo SAR helicopter pilot on a rescue mission over a raging North Sea?

My point is that age/experience should not be a strict barometer of ability to cope with the severe stress of an emergency situation. Give me a 25yo who had actually handled a real life emergency well over a 50yo who has never even been in one any day.

[BusyB]

conor_mc,

I guess the 50 yr old was experienced and skilled enough to avoid an emergency with 400 people behind him!!!

[dwshimoda]

conor-mc

I agree with your statement:

My point is that age/experience should not be a strict barometer of ability to cope with the severe stress of an emergency situation

However, 25 years old and 1,500 hrs aint enough experience for a command of a 73 - there is no way on earth in that time you could amass all the experience and capacity to deal with every situation.

Okay, I'm a wannabee - currently doing my ATPL theories, and my planned route, if I'm lucky enough to achieve it, is to spend a few years learning the ropes on something like a dash-8 before moving to jets, and hoping to achieve command by about 10 years - I would not feel confident in myself to be PIC on a 73 with only 1,500 hrs.

Also, with the little knowledge I currently have of airline transport, I definitely wouldn't want to fly on a plane where the commander has such little experience.

[Flyingsand]

ROKAPE :

The 25 YO's do not have 180 people behind them. The 25 YO's are required to 'damage' people/assets. Big difference.


Im an f/o at the moment approaching 3000hrs jet time at the age of 24 (and approaching command if I choose to take it) I have a few experiences of flying with captains younger than myself. Making the combined age of the flight deck at the time 44-46 year old. In my short few years of doing the job, with 180+ pax behind us I can honestly say I have far more confidence in the younger captains that are about, than some of the older ones. The guys who get command at a stereotypical young age are VERY VERY good at their job. Some of the older ones are far past their prime and are only there becasue of their past experience not their current skill/decision making abilities.

Age is NOT comeasurate with job proficientcy!! I do try to avoid flying with the captains who have a mindset of Rokape who think they are hollier than thou. Although correcting their mistakes is a most entertaining method of getting them to shut up. :) :)


Rokape, how would you act if you had to fly in the right hand seat with a young captain ??? (if you are yourself a captain) Would you refuse due to his age??? In our company you'd be out on your RS if you did.

[conor_mc]

BusyB,

I guess the 50 yr old was experienced and skilled enough to avoid an emergency with 400 people behind him!!!

I saw that one coming at me when I typed up my last reply, but decided not to muddy the waters by including a caveat. For the purpose of this discussion, can we assume that despite experience and skill, events can conspire to catch out the best of us, no matter what we do. While I take your point, it may also be the case that relative inexperience may cause a less experienced pilot to think twice where an older head might carry on, and trust blindly in his/her abilities to extricate themselves from a deteriorating situation.

I suppose I should clarify that I am not against older pilots, that is not my point at all.

Flyingsand, thanks for the backup. Again though, I stress my point is not really about whether 25 with 1500 hours is enough for command. My problem is with those who would slag off someone who has been deemed competent enough to take up a command. If this is a real issue, then the regulations should state that command age should be greater than 30, or whatever age/hours combination you choose.

The fact of the matter is that no such limitation exists, so tut-tutting the FR's of this world is all well and good, but frankly those that do so look to me more like the muppet characters Faire d'income has posted above, passing comment from the sidelines without being willing to debate the issue on it's own merit.

[Flyingsand]

coner_mc:

My problem is with those who would slag off someone who has been deemed competent enough to take up a command

Ignore them, they probably failed a command check, or haven't been offered one and the age of retirement is fast approaching. They DO seem like the perfect candidate for management however :E :8

[Faire d'income]

vfenext, Faire d'income and Bart O'Lynn,

I have no interest in this case being a mere student PPL, but I find your comments about the young lady in question to be nothing short of offensive, to say the least.

Conor I made no comment about the young lady, I merely showed what I thought of the IAA.

If you are the type that goes out of your way to be offended by people you have come to the right place but please at least pay attention.

[conor_mc]

Conor I made no comment about the young lady, I merely showed what I thought of the IAA.
If you are the type that goes out of your way to be offended by people you have come to the right place but please at least pay attention.


I took it in the context of agreeing with previous posters comments, in that the IAA should not be overseeing the placement of a 25yo in the LHS.

My mistake, my apologies so.

[jumpy737]

How did my thread get hijacked to be a discussion of age of upgrades and experience level? I was looking for specific reasons why Ryanair should be avoided rather than the ambiguous "just because they suck". What have they done besides asking people to put up money for re-training. What are the specifics in regard to pay and working conditions that are causing people grief? Anyone based in Scotland who can PM me with specifics would be appreciated.

[prob30]

jumpy737 check pms

[Farrell]

I wonder how many of you here at her age would have stood up on the carpet and turned down the four stripes......because you weren't "experienced" enough.

:rolleyes:

[Rananim]

Im an f/o at the moment approaching 3000hrs jet time at the age of 24 (and approaching command if I choose to take it) I have a few experiences of flying with captains younger than myself. Making the combined age of the flight deck at the time 44-46 year old.

That is disconcerting to many.I wouldnt be too quick to tell the poor passengers.

[vfenext]

A 3000hr Capt is total madness. I wont even mention the questionable practice of promoting 24 yr olds with limited life experience. What kind of experience must their training Capts have. Choose who you fly with very very carefully.

[Bearcat]

VFE....I disagree with respect. I have 10k plus hrs, 5K LHS. I fly with all sorts. Some with mega hrs whom I wouldnt give them a wheel barrow to mind. Yet I fly with 3k hrs merchants....some ex handlers and decision makers. It s really down to the individual.

The culture has it that it is a risk giving low timers command but FR etc have proved many wrong. The one thing that sticks with me is that M O'L is alleged to have said he can afford one crash. I hope this is hog wash.

[Cosmic Star]

Vfenext, Stop talking out of your arse. FR have had plenty of Captains in their early twenties, whats your point? They don't give away commands, you are eligable to apply at certain hour thresholds it doesn't mean you will get it.

Can I ask your experience level? Are you a commercial Pilot, with airline (Jet) experience?

P.S By your logic it is now no longer safer to fly BA then either is it?


http://www.oxfordaviation.net/company/ba-pr.htm

[jackbauer]

This has to be the first time I have heard of anyone defending a lack of experience as a good reason to upgrade. 3000hrs is not enough for jet command and anyone with 2 brain cells will tell you that. As for comparing yourselves with BA...stop you are killing me :)

[AMiller]

vfenext how about the mil guys with commands at 500hrs?? They do a harder job, been through harder training, could do more damage if they f++k up.

may i ask....were you per chance not offered your command when YOU thought YOU were good enough??

Andy

[Cosmic Star]

jackbauer Who said anything about comparing them to BA? My point is that if BA do it no one bats an eyelid yet when FR do its a risk. Just explain that for me, I don't understand?



24 yr olds with limited life experience

Whats that got to do with anything?

@AMiller

Exactly! But they are not Fr so we won't jump on that Band Wagon.......

[ifleeplanes]

Sorry ...and where is your evidence that these 3000 hour 25 year old pilots are unsafe....I dont see the fields of Europe littered with the burnt out wrecks of B737s flown by these young 'inexperienced' pilots. Proof...show it to me, or is it just plain coincidence that these pilots have not had major incidents.

Why arn't the CAA/ IAA up in arms about these 'DANGEROUS' practices? God forbid a 25 yo be able to fly as well as a 45 yo :yuk:

Smells of sour grapes to me JackBauer and VFE :{

[Gerard123]

You guys are so jealous it's not even funny. Age has nothing to do with anything.

Do you comply with the regs?

Do you have a safe attitude and have shown complete competancy ?

Do you have enough specific experience, this is important, you cannot take a 747 captain and put him directly into short haul on new aircraft and new routes. If you've got a few thousand hours (which means 3-4 years) on the same aircraft and routes then go for it.

My uncle got long haul command on a 767 at 28 years old, by that stage he'd been flying for 10 years, he only flew with a single carrier after getting his ATP's , that's a long time on the same fleet.

To you guys who think young pilots are dangerous go get either a bomb shelter or a reality check :ok:

[Bart O'Lynn]

Someone mentioned "good at their job". Notice the singular. The problem lies in that they are indeed good at their job which at that stage of their career consists of alot of MCP button pushing experience on one type in one operation and apeing the people next to them. Flying a few visuals here and there is not experience. Having flown for ryr for a season and returned to my own mob i can safely say it is easy to become good and efficient doing the same thing everyday. Until an objective person assesses you in a different enviroment and emergency again and the whole thing starts to make sense. Its a self perpetuating necessary system so they will of course all be good at their job. Again Singular, again operating a highly automated aircraft as they were shown to do. These people are getting praise , commands and having accolades heaped upon thenm at exactly the experience levels proven to be high risk brackets for all the above reasons. The arrogance of this company and its supporters will have to be reconciled someday. Lets hope not but cest la vie.
Unfortunately i know lots of dead pilots who were always great pilots, real stars, heard all the eulogies. except they are dead.All bush jockies, rising stars but thankfully not taking 189 with them.

[ifleeplanes]

Good at their job means exactly that they ARE good at their job...the safety records prove that. They are not being asked to do anything but their job. They are well trained to deal with emergencies should they occur, and in the past they have dealt with them admirably. Show me the accident statistics that prove that isnt true. I can show you many accidents what were perpetrated by flight crews with tens of thousands of hours between them. Can you give me examples of where these 'inexperienced' crews have done worse? No I doubt it.

I have flown with hugely experienced Captains who are c**p and I have flown with FOs with little over 3000 hours who are excelent. It is dependant on the person concerned. The upgrades are NOT rubber stamps, just because they guy has 3000 hours doesnt get him a command. It gets him a shot at command IF HE IS READY, if he passes then good luck to him/her.

It doesnt sound to me like many of the people on this thread are showing the maturity that is reguired of command themselves, be they 25 or 55, maturity is not just a consiquence of age.

Once again more sour grapes.....what was wrong one season too much for you? Miss the ILS and 10000 ft runways each end? Nows there's experience for you

[Bart O'Lynn]

Mr flee planes ,
I just wrote a long reply then erased it in error. In order to avoid typing it all again the gist of it was I'm right you're wrong. Hope that helps . I've never missed a 10000ft runway in my life. Hit a few though. Now get back to your MCP and have fun.:ok:

[Kilo-club SNA]

I know I shouldn't but I must....


In my humble opinion one should be very carefully talking of a big group of individuals

There ARE plenty of good young captains with less than average experience the problem is that the trends move towards that you fly for two years than get a command.....and that's just wrong!
this goes for more companies than RYR
Just because the JAA/CAA sais that the atpl becomes warm at 1500 hours doesn't mean that you are ready. Anyone who has got their instructor rating has probably got the scary feeling of realizing of how little one knew before.

Age.....always tricky but I still claim that 25 years of age is young, very young. It doesn't mean that you can't be suitable but it's very little life experience. There is such a rush to learn everything at once these days. It might not be the best way.

A lot of the old crusty pilots I fly with might ahve some (to me)odd ideas of how to do things but everytime I ask it always turns out that there is a perfectly good and quiter often scary story that expains it. There is a risk that a company with exclusively young and "inexperinced" captins and training captians might not have experiencied everything yet, thus have less experience to share.
Being rushed into a position where you are ultimately responsible for everything is not very good. Is there really that much of a rush.

Someone mentioned statistics?
For any companies that have existed less than five years it's prettty hard to say that it's safe because that they haven't ever had an accident. Also safety is more than accidents example:

I sometimes see a/c making a wide turn onto the runway rolling a while and then applying power. On some runways that's not really safe. If they had a an RTO they would find themself of the runway and if there is a ravin there.....well.
But guess what RTO's are rather rare so unless nothing happens nooneknowes and the airline is safe...or?


Ok, that's it....shoot me down!

[BusyB]

This thread has got some really arrogant, ignorant contributions. I have made no comments about anybodies capabilities because I don't know.

However,
"I sometimes see a/c making a wide turn onto the runway rolling a while and then applying power. On some runways that's not really safe. If they had a an RTO they would find themself of the runway and if there is a ravin there.....well."

How do you know where their T/O performance calculations were based on? These sort of assumptions reflect inexperienced pilots whatever their age.

[the grim repa]

get lives,you pack of absolute losers.

[Gerard123]

Agree with Grim. Sorry the thread got carried away 737, good luck with Ryan air :rolleyes:

[jackbauer]

good luck with Ryan air
You are certainly going to need it because by the looks of this thread you will be flying with a lot of inexperienced crews. Blind leading the blind as usual in FR. Don't forget to lodge your victimisation claim early because the queue is very long!!