MCT clearances

[tic]

Can anyone tell me, why Muscat ATC is giving the normal Mike 08 0r Mike 26 Departures, which is normal, but also giving clearances on specific airways routings, as part of the departure proceedure. They never used to, and UAE, Bah, Kuwait, and Saudi, don't either, unless, there is a change, to the filed flt plan. Also on over-flights, in the MCT FIR getting airways clearances, as opposed to 'flt planned route'.Presumabably, ATC in any FIR has the roueting of any particular flight,as per the filed flt plan, or does it? So why, have to bring it up in the departure clearance? Of course, if there is a change, quite fine. This is not running down MCT ATC, just want to know the reason.

[ATCO1962]

hi tic

this is probably due to the fact that the FPLs that we have at any given time may or may not be true. The only way that we can ensure that you end up flying through our airspace without making any unexpected turns that endanger others or surprise us is by reading out, long-hand, the route that we're expecting you to fly. Sounds strange, I know, but we can't rely on the FPLs submitted.

If you're wondering why we don't necessarily have the right FPL; it's because some operators don't file at all, relying on our good nature to electronically input them on their behalf, or the FPLs are incorrectly processed after multiple plans have been put into the AFTN. Sometimes, we even find that the FPL carried in the cockpit bears no resemblence to the only one we've received in the centre.:(

Anyway, my hope is that you get a good service regardless. Have a good one.:ok:

[fat'n'grey]

tic,

Cleared FPL route....about as much use as boobies on a bull! I bet if I said to you "Maintain assigned level." you would readback (in a slightly miffed tone) "Maintain FL340 (as approp) XXX 123."

Experience shows us that errors occur. We the controllers and pilots need to ensure we are all working to the same script.

Certainly, in my world as an acft enters the FIR it is given a route clearance fix by fix for the first couple of sectors. Further route clearances fix by fix are given by the next sectors as detailed in local instructions.

These clearances are issued to all acft, whether a one-off delivery flight transiting the airspace or daily (hourly?) shuttle flights that know the airspace inside out.

I recall once during a very busy period, omitting the route clearance (to a locally based operator) who then followed a different route to the one we had. This (luckily) caused only minor inconvenience to the sectors down route. I, of course, had a very red face for not doing my job properly. Lesson learnt by me - no matter how busy, don't take short-cuts or ignore established procedures, they are there for a reason.

Oh dear!

[cat man do]

Hmmmmmm, fpling an issue again? Best we change our procedures to adapt to poor fpling. Tell you what, why not cancel the need for fpling and we can just enter straight into the system and adapt our procedures so that we end up with long winded clearances?

[piniped]

uh oh...the UAE management flunkie is attempting to 7500 this thread.

Walk a mile in the other guys moccasins before opening noise hole:yuk:

ps a route clearance is just that..not "make BUBIN 1 arrival"

Funny that even in Australia the route used to have to be specified on first contact with an arrivals controller.

As the 43 year old said...the plan held in the computer at times bears absolutley no resemblence to what is in the pilots fist..but at least we recevied it, so he can go above F280:rolleyes:

[cat man do]

Get back to the point I raised pin head. The problem that has arisen is fpling. I am not argueing about route clearance. Go back to what ATCO1962 has written

"this is probably due to the fact that the FPLs that we have at any given time may or may not be true. The only way that we can ensure that you end up flying through our airspace without making any unexpected turns that endanger others or surprise us is by reading out, long-hand, the route that we're expecting you to fly. Sounds strange, I know, but we can't rely on the FPLs submitted."

Surely if the fpling issue is tackled (on the ground or in the air, you choose) then this would be one little thing out our way as controllers to get on with the job.

[RustyNail]

The fact is that the flight planning in the ME region is hap-hazard and random at the best of times.

A/C can be flying for 6 hours before coming into our FIR going from Europe to the far East, no flight plan, no estimate, no nothing.

Very embarassing and un-professional of an ACC controller to be asking a pilot, "where are you going, what is your A/C type etc ??", but it has to be done, because they just turn up out of no-where.

We are required to clear every A/C through our FIR, point by point. We never see hard or electronic copies of flight plans, the exit point printed on our strips is what the assistants have guessed as the most appropriate route for the destination when they took the inbound estimate (if they get one).

Please don't even go there with flight plans and RVSM approval!!:{

[ATCO1962]

howdy cat,

Complete agreement about lousy flight planning but this doesn't have anything to do with the "punishing aircraft" thread.

It seems that when the original authorities drew up our manuals years ago, they foresaw the need to read out route clearances precisely because they knew that no flight planning system would ever be infallible and we can see that years down the track. No amount of good theory can ever put paid to reality, which is that most aircraft/crew file plans correctly and transmit them to the appropriate ATC providers; however, a number slip through that aren't correct, weren't sent or were misplaced by some briefing/ops office.

In the interests of safety, we encourage all our ATCOs and trainees to read complete route clearances, no matter how onerous or strange it seems. We've had a number of incidents because aircraft have turned onto unexpected airways and we'll never know how many incidents we haven't seen because of this system.

And pin, I'm 42:* :* :* Haven't you examined my birth certificate??:ok:

[tic]

We programme our flt plan as published to us and I presume to ATC. Direct clearances are ALWAYS welcome, and any controller worth his salt, will try his level best as a professional, to give, it to us, wherever possible. Speeds are a different issue, especially below 10000' above ground level, and all airlines have different SOP's regarding that. Not-withstanding ATC instructions, no-one should be over 220 kts, subject to weight and aircraft type, within 25, nm of the airport' plus or minus'. Speeds change per aircraft type, ICAO, etc etc etc. If we all worked on that, surely the controllers life would be hugely, supported, and could work on, almost deifnate issues, i.e. 250 kts absolute max speed below 5000' above gnd level. SOP with most airlines. And,or,in most cases 250 kts below 10000', unless you have been cleared, and been told, but not during the day,' high speed approach' Fine, but not during the day, in this part of the world when birds try and ' nest in the engine ' I would like in plenty of time, to be told to slow down, or a speed to the OM. Be practicle. Birds, are nasty, and right now we are talking about the feathered kind.
Big thing.

[Fox3snapshot]

"....Direct clearances are ALWAYS welcome, and any controller worth his salt, will try his level best as a professional, to give, it to us, wherever possible"

What goes around comes around mate, if you fly for who I think you do then any airline "worth its salt" would provide insentive for us to go out of our road to look after them, but this is not the case. In fact a particular major airline based where you are (and possibly work for) provides absolutely nothing to ATC in the form of industry discount or similar. Ironically a bunch of airlines from other parts of the world who we have little to do with on a daily basis, provide excellent deals and subsequently get the service they deserve for their co-operation. This is not to say you will be dealt with in an unprofessional manner....it just means you may not get that direct track you are looking for :hmm:

[Tweety]

Foxxy



Here, here couldn't have said it better myself. It seems they just do not seem to get the message do they!!

Catch up with you soon.

TTFN

:D :D :D

[divingduck]

Whilst on the subject, could all of our Em Rats ( and others southbound) chaps realise that Muscat cannot give away direct tracking south of Haima any longer.

Since the last airspace changes, the airforce have taken over huge areas down south and we are restricted to the use of the airways only, unless of course in an emergency.

Generally speaking if we can give it to you, we would :ok:

Foxxy what on earth are you doing trawling the boards when you are on leave??
(is there netball on in Rome?)

[Scott Voigt]

What does free riding in the back have to do with doing our JOB? Now, I would be far more happy if the different airlines would help get together with the ATC provider and develop some GOOD training for both the pilots and controllers so that each end of the mike had a clue as to what was going on in thier respective environments... Now THAT would help make a difference.

As for free rides, I would rather pay the small fee and and KNOW that I was going somewhere space positive, in other words, buy a ticket....

regards

Scott

[Fox3snapshot]

Just taking a break from all these stunning Italian women, sunshine, wine and pizza! After all there is only so much a bloke can take! :cool:

Scott Sorry mate, no such thing as a "small fee" when travelling on our local operators trying to get home from the sandpit or points in between....and even paying the big bucks doesn't always guarantee that you will get where you want when they are 25% overbooked! :hmm:

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

You better hurry back Foxy, one more down staffwise, so will need you to do some overtimes.:E

Here's a tip mate, grow a moustache so that you remind al the Italian girlies of their mums.:ok:

[Fox3snapshot]

Might have to look at my "no overtime" policy after this little travel extravaganza.....who invented this flippen Euro thing anyway! :\ The Lira used to be the way ahead....big numbers but little value, oooh how times have changed!:{

GP in a few days....go Webber!!!!!!!!!! Should be good fun giv'n these Farrari fans a run for their money...assuming our BMW's manage to get wheels that go round and round :suspect:

And as for the mostache....bu**er the daughters, I'm going for the Momma's anyway.....:E

And to end this on an aviation note....I think I saw an MD80 fly over Venice today...:p

[Tweety]

Hey guys

are you telling me that you are actually doing OT in AUH?!

NOw I suppose you think you are going to tell me that they Serco are actually paying you for the overtime? I would find that very hard to believe.

I assumed you had a full compliment of around 30 plus to run the roster as I was told, but if not how many are you really or how many down are you now?

Please fess up I am very curious??

TTFN

Tweety

PS Fox3 I will be in touch with you in about a week re that PM i sent you!:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

[Bumz_Rush]

I could never understand why the voices sounded so surprised when we called up...Does not the friendly neighbours slip you a post it note or something just to say hi guys one coming your way......?????...Bumz