PDA

View Full Version : Stop The Hatred....please.


coitus interuptus
22nd Aug 2005, 23:19
Gentlemen.

Trawling through these pages, whilst educational is nothing short of distressing. Here we are, a reasonably intelligent group of people(??) and the best we can come up with is character assassination, invective and vitriol.

Every time someone makes a controversial opinion, they are monstered from every angle. Where is the intellectual dialogue that could so easily enhance these forums and make them truly beneficial. Spleen venting has its place (god knows we need to do that working for these clowns in Oz), however we are missing the point in a very big way.

Pilot conditions and wages etc are under attack by some of the lowest forms of human existance we have ever experienced (read profiteering bean counters etc).

If we were half smart, we could put our collective energy into building a comprehensive mechanism to stop the rot. QF pilots are NOT PAID TOO MUCH! The rest of us are underpaid, and we should in the first instance acknowledge that, and then be prepared to do something about it.

Sledging each other about who started all of this is irrelevant. The fact is we are being set against each other by these parasites and it is working beautifully.

We all do the same job. Last week I had a 5 sector day in which we carried 180 pax on each sector. That is 900 pax for the day and in return in get $148K per annum. What an absolute disgrace! We don't get paid for workload comrades, we get paid for the level of responsibility that comes with the job and the continual study and checking regimes that go with it.

I propose that we,

1. Stop the hatred. I.e. Try to limit the negativity toward each other.

2. Be pro-active in finding solutions to the lowering of conditions.

3. Make a genuine attempt at developing a cohesive and UNITED pilot body that will not take ANY [email protected] from dillusional/dysfunctional management.

4. Put the position of airline pilot back on the level where it belongs. I do not mean being eliteist, I mean showing each other the respect they deserve and setting a positve example for new people entering the industry.

Be aware my friends, there are airline management people masquerading as pilots and stirring up a lot of this hatred in these threads. Don't get sucked in by it. It is in their interests to keep us divided and keep conditions down. It is in our interests to rise above that rubbish and work vigorously toward a better future.

This is not about rampant left wing ideology, it is about being SMART and and using 21st century thinking to avail ourselves of the best course of action.

Al E. Vator
23rd Aug 2005, 00:01
Yes coitus....I totally agree.

There will of course be criticism that you're idealistic or unrealistic but you are entirely CORRECT.

The one thing you could have also mentioned is the immediate need for AIPA and the AFAP to join forces. This would be the catalyst for going forward as a united group.

You also need not apologise for wishing to place the position of pilot back on a pedestal. It is a challenging and sometimes stressful occupation and should not be denegrated by others for their own ends.

Well said sir

Buster Hyman
23rd Aug 2005, 02:09
Put the position of airline pilot back on the pedastal where it belongs :rolleyes:
Even though you've qualified it, this is the sort of thinking that loses you the support of other aviation professionals who could do a lot to help your cause! The fact is that plenty of non pilots read this and probably raised an eyebrow too.

Oh well, I know you're only talking to pilots here, so I'll leave it at that...but its worth considering!:ok:

Good luck!

coitus interuptus
23rd Aug 2005, 02:23
Point taken Buster.

However I think ATC and Engineering should be up there as well. They are very important and highly demanding occupations with huge responsibility.

Martin Luther King was a bit of a dreamer and I confess to being one as well. We have so much potential as a group but very little impetus due to division .

Lodown
23rd Aug 2005, 02:46
There are so many other pricks on the pedestal, the airline pilots would hardly have any room. And besides, they did a fine job pushing each other off in the first place and they're still at it at ground level trying to get back on.

Who cares?

numbskull
23rd Aug 2005, 04:45
Yeah well last night on my 12 hr shift I worked on 4 aeroplanes including an engine change on a 747. How many passengers would have flown on those kites? My responsibility is different but the consquences of a mistake are no less devastating!! I get considerably less than $148K (and that's after 20 yrs in the industry).

I don't believe $148K is a disgrace(nor is it overpaid) but pilots don't deserve to be on any "pedestal" just because they can fly a plane!!. More like get off your highhorse!!

coitus interuptus
23rd Aug 2005, 05:45
Numbskull it was probably my lack of diction that has caused the indifference.

I don't profess to be better than anyone, and that is certainly not the point I wanted to make. To clarify it I will change the wording.

Management are (and have been for some time) making a concerted effort to supress, divide and belittle our occupations. It comes from an inane misunderstanding of our positions and complete lack of appreciation for what we do (pilots, engineers and ATC).

I have also done 20+ years in the industry and I get paid $50K per year LESS than my mates who do the same job. I want to ensure the benchmark set by Qantas is maintained for the rest of us to aspire to.

Yes it was my choice to come back from o/s to the country I want to retire in and watch my kids grow. As I said all that is irrelevant. Instead of being at each others throats, we could do well to move collectively toward better conditions. QF included.

Throughout the course of history, I am not aware of ANY group who achieved results through hostility and aggression toward each other. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong.

Lets grow some testicles and put an end to the carnage.

Capn Bloggs
23rd Aug 2005, 07:52
I must admit that, given the title of this thread, it seems numbskull came on a bit strong...:ugh:

OhForSure
23rd Aug 2005, 07:59
Well said :ok:

coitus for PM!

Seriously though, this is a situation that is persisting throughout the industry. I view it as an industry issue rather than simply a pilot one... wages AND conditions must be given a thorough going over at all ends of the spectrum. Aviation is the safest mode of transport for a reason... highly trained individuals acting in a team environment to provide an excellent service. Could it be that the industry has become it's own worst enemy in that it is now so safe and (somewhat) routine that it negates higher wages and better conditions? Or has it more to do with pilots being so desperate for work down here, that anyone will do anything for a job?

We may need another thread entirely to have a bitching session regarding managers and airline hierarchy:yuk:

OpsNormal
23rd Aug 2005, 09:36
Lodown wrote: ....There are so many other pricks on the pedestal, the airline pilots would hardly have any room....

Now I've got to clean coffee off the laptop screen and keyboard. I haven't pi$$ed myself laughing that hard in a very long time.

Thanks mate.;)

heated ice detector
23rd Aug 2005, 11:35
What I think Numbskull is saying in a rounderbout way is that his signature is on four aircraft and therefore his responsibility wheras pilots are only responsible for the one that they are currently sitting in.
But I could be wrong!

Buster Hyman
23rd Aug 2005, 12:07
Okay, I did say I'd leave it at that, but I'll chuck one more in for good measure...

The pilots, as a group, DO need to try and see things on the straight & level. This applies to ALL professions. I don't think you'll get far so long as a certain group vehemently loathe another certain group. There's your first hurdle! If you blokes can get past that, you're on your way.

What non pilots think about your pay scales is irrelevant. Award conditions are negotiated in good faith. If I can get more through clever bargainning, lucky me. If you get more than me then good for you! I should try harder...or...talk to you about how I can do better next time.

Now, having said others' opinion of your wages is irrelevant, so too is whinging about non pilots wages, like Ramp staff getting upwards of $90k chucking bags. Apples for Apples, as 737guru used to say to me. You cannot compare what you do to other professions and try to draw remuneration comparisons, it doesn't work.

So, when you've realised when you can all talk again, where do you go? You organise! Be it through existing unions or just a professional group, whatever, you become a like minded group that genuinely wants to improve conditions from the ground up! Make sure you get a word in at aero clubs or schools & ensure that new pilots coming through understand what you are on about. Keep it realistic & relative in the economic climate & you should do okay.

Now, reading back, it looks like kids stuff, but its just the basics...sometimes, getting back to basics is all you need!:ok:

Erin Brockovich
23rd Aug 2005, 12:19
To those of you posting that don’t fly for a living - please don’t bring your pissing contest to this thread. With all the outsourcing of non-flying positions going on, you all might want to concentrate on getting your own houses in order. :suspect:

Completely agree coitus interruptus. Where do I sign up! :ok:

Guptar
23rd Aug 2005, 21:46
Coitus Interuptus, sounds like you are the type who gets all dressed up in your flash pilots uniform to go to the local supermarket on your days off so u can perade in front of your adoring public so they can see that you are indeed a................PILOT! Gee, 900 pax in a day.................... do you get a medal to pin on your chest if you crack 1000?? Talk about a wamker.

Many other professions have the same or greater responsibility and make far less that 148K. Go ask an ICU nursing specialist, pediatric nurse, ER doctors, just to name a few. But you dont see them saying how good they are, they just get on with their life.

Now why does FIGJAM come to mind.

coitus interuptus
23rd Aug 2005, 22:21
Nice try guptar.

As I said ladies gentlemen, there are types who attempt to drive the wedge in where they can and cause division (see above). They are not pilots and dont have one iota of understanding of the industry or what we do, just pure jealously and a very sinister hidden agenda.

Let this person wallow in his hatred while the rest of us get on with the job of constructive dialogue and change.

Woomera
23rd Aug 2005, 22:23
A bit of agro in the air this morning?

Perhaps some users should have a bex and a contemplative lie down before posting?

Woomera

chimbu
23rd Aug 2005, 23:24
Good post CI

Kinda like the last days of the Roman Empire.
Time was when mutual respect existed between all disciplines.

Pilots couldn’t fly unless there were Traffic staff to check in Pax, Baggage guys to load, Engineers to keep us flying, FA's to hostess, Management to throw the annual keg, Bookkeepers to keep the bank happy.. etc

No one was more important than his/ her neighbour as without any element the operation would not take place.

This constant professional slagging shows how our flying game has been degraded, and sadly, this forum has in recent years been highjacked by "the chattering classes" to push political/ industrial points of view. Woomera is correct in reminding us to be kind to one another.

I have also watched with disbelief the speed of some posters to answer what are obvious journalists fishing for material to dump the dirt on our profession.

Maybe it is symptomatic of society in general. Welcome to life in the 21st Century.

OhForSure
24th Aug 2005, 00:52
I'm with Chimbu... rather than shitting each other in OUR own industry, why not work together? Plane doesn't go to far if the guy downstairs doesn't connect the tug properly etc etc!

There is a general lack of respect within the industry from all angles. Perhaps it's everywhere in society? Lack of respect for one another... Then again there are so many dickheads that don't deserve any respect.:E

Creampuff
24th Aug 2005, 01:04
These kinds of discussions always remind me of the patently paradoxical parroting by the crowd in Life of Brian: We're all individuals!

At the heart of the problem is the fact that, despite the name of the forum, and notwithstanding how often it's asserted, no one in the aviation industry is a true professional. I realise that lots of you earnestly believe or hope that you are, but the very existence of this forum, and the content of some of the discussions that go on here, prove otherwise.

Members of true professions are obliged to maintain the integrity and reputation of their profession by ensuring that their communications are courteous and that they avoid offensive or provocative language or conduct. The most technically competent doctor or lawyer is prone to disciplinary action, including removal of the right to practice, if s/he were to engage in the kinds of discourteous, offensive and provocative language that pollutes PPRuNe, or at least D&G. That's one of the reasons for there not being a doctors' or lawyers' equivalent of PPRuNe.

If I were to suggest that all aviation licences should be subject to a condition that the holder must maintain the integrity and reputation of their profession by ensuring that their communications are courteous and that they avoid offensive or provocative language or conduct, I would be cyber-lynched.

Altogether now: We're all fu*kin' professionals!

coitus interuptus
24th Aug 2005, 01:53
Creampuff, with due respect, you are incrorrect. Contrary to popular belief, PROFESSION is no longer defined as requiring special training in the liberal arts or sciences such as Law, Theology or Medicine. It has plenty (and a lot more) to do with the body or group of people in such an occupation. Therefore by default a professional is a person suitable for or engaged in a profession. Therefore (again) pilots ARE PROFESSIONALS. So are engineers and ATCO's.

Management have been trying hard for years to downgrade our PROFESSION. It is an attitude enshrined by pure jealousy.

"The Life of Brian" is a hilarious movie, but it has no significance here. Further more, we are arguing semantics. I don't believe too many people really care.

Australian pilot's are under attack from vacuous bean counters with little or no empathy/understanding for the trade we perform.
Responsibility for transporting people through the air safely should come at a reasonable price. At this stage only QF are realising that objective.

OpsNormal
24th Aug 2005, 02:09
So you mean he's not the messiah?;)

Creampuff
24th Aug 2005, 02:35
OK then ci, what ethical and behavioural standards are imposed upon you as a consequence of membership of your profession?

If all it takes to be a member of a profession is that you are paid to do a task that you are technically competent to perform, the junkie that washes windscreens full time for money on the corner is a member of a profession.

PS: OZBUSDRIVER, where's your "I'm not" gone? It was the perfect riposte to my post!

Touche OpsNormal!

ginjockey
24th Aug 2005, 04:42
CI, I agree with the theory but I can't see it ever becoming a working model that reaps any benefits to the industry. Way too many egomaniacs who are in it for themselves. Also, I don't think the job belongs on any sort of pedestal. It's just a job, not rocket science. Why should it be on a pedestal??

Numbskull - Forget Kaptin M's automatic and predictable response to anything regarding pilot's skills. He can't help himself. That's why he is where he is.

The fact these big and complex machines run so well, day in and day out for years is a credit to the less glamorous role of the engineers. Your skills, knowledge and attention to detail is not praised nearly enough. You guys and gals in the grotty overalls are absolute champions. Onya.

cheers

Gin.

numbskull
24th Aug 2005, 06:28
A simple thanks and appreciation for one's efforts goes a long way.

Thanks ginjockey

Ace on Base
24th Aug 2005, 11:10
I saw this thread justr after C.I. posted, and found myself pondering how many reply posts before it gets nasty :uhoh:

was thinking about throwing in some advice back then but thought better of it :hmm:

but cant help myself now after reading the last two pages of replies - the advice that I was going to offer was:

"TIN HATS ON BOYS (AND SHELAS), DIG IN WITH YOUR EYEBROWS - SOMEONE WILL MAKE "CONTACT" WITH A RIGHT FLANKER AND THIS IS GONNA BECOME A TWO WAY SHOOTING RANGE!!" :} :mad: :}

Seems the Ginger Beers spilt the milk on this one!!

Keep smiling sunshiners!!

Ace :ok:

chimbu
24th Aug 2005, 22:14
Thats true Admiral.. Personally I have lockwired out thrust reversers on the B737 and signed it out, but only as a relief measure to return the a/c to mainbase.

Furthermore, your last reply is a perfect example of the devisiveness CI is preaching against. So to all you LAME's out there I would like to apologise for my colleague's graceless remark. He is a chattering fool. Be assured we hold you in the highest esteem and could not (would not) operate without your wonderful support.

Perhaps Admiral, you should follow your “moderate mild and modest” sub handle.

Alternatively, let your solicitors loose on any who disagree.

coitus interuptus
24th Aug 2005, 22:51
A robust debate is welcomed gentlemen, but not at the expense of decency and decorum. Thank you for your inputs to date.

Lets just agree we both need each other to be doing our job correctly AT ALL TIMES.

I appreciate the difficulty of getting everyone singing from the same hymn sheet. It has been likened to trying to push a pile of manure up a hill.

It matters not how difficult the task. It simply has to be done if we are to preserve what we have and bargain hard for a much better future.

Ever since the advent of the bean counter CEO, attitudes and conditions have deteriorated. You will not find too many business schools or any text advocating the systematic abuse and mis- treatment of staff as a successful business and fiscal foundation. Quite the contrary is true.

We are going to have to perform a LAZARUS here gents if we are to realise a better future. And it starts right here and right now with you. It is easy to sit back and let others do the work. Tangible benefits will only be realised when we ALL get off our backsides and collectively deal with the issues.

As I said, rampant left wing ideologey is not the way to go. Busines leaders are onto that sort of behaviour these days and have mechanisms in place to deal with it.

Through smart calculated dialogue, great things are possible. Alternatively you can sit on your behinds and accept the status quo. It may serve you well in the short term, but think 5 years ahead and then imagine the consequenses of doing nothing. Not very pleasant is it?

prospector
24th Aug 2005, 23:09
It is all quite simple really, the reason things have changed so much in the Aviation World is the Low Cost Carrier. They have created low cost positions for pilots who 30 or 40 years ago would not have even got a look in. Not because they were not capable, but there was just not enough seats to go round.

However, that is all again in the process of change, the price of fuel accelerating rapidly sky wards, and more likely to go up further rather than down, will see the demise of Low Cost Carriers as such, the folks that are using these services will be the first to feel the pinch and go back to staying at home or taking the bus or a train.

Air travel will once again be the domain of the elite, and the lucky few who remain as aeroplane drivers will be able to expect the salaries and conditions of service that all seem to think they are entitled to. But eventually, comparing the latest products from Boeing and Airbus with the DC3's,all in less fifty years, the newer products will not require anyone but perhaps a systems monitor at the sharp end. It is surely getting very close to that already with the latest products, a different world from the days of the radial piston powered airliner.

And then there will be lots of people who will have the time to swap bullshit on PPrune.

Prospector

Pinky the pilot
25th Aug 2005, 08:19
Interesting posts so far, with one or two exceptions! What worries me deeply though is that the 'beancounters' (for want of a better description) who are most probably laughing at the infighting going on in this industry are seemingly the only ones aware of the 'divide and conquer' rule.:(
Those who would want to reduce the pay and conditions of Pilots, Lames, F/As, indeed any and all who work in one way or another at making a/c fly will find their task quite easy if all of us continue in the current divisive way.:{
Someone far wiser than I shall ever be once said words to the effect that....
A house divided cannot stand
Whether we realise this before it is too late remains to be seen.

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

Sandy Freckle
25th Aug 2005, 19:00
I absolutely agree with the general sentiment flowing on this thread. That is: lets work together to stop the rot.

Will someone please explain to me however, how as a Qantas Mainline pilot I can stand by this sentiment whilst idly watching as the Jetstar organisation undermines my own. Jetstar pilots are greedily lapping up the opportunity to do the EXACT same thing as me for half the pay.

Can someone please tell me how I can reconcile this conundrum of wanting to work together whilst they white ant the industry?

Because I'm finding it very hard not to be bitter about watching my career disappear before my eyes whilst our industry is prostituted.

Col. Walter E. Kurtz
25th Aug 2005, 19:45
Sandy, what have you, and other QF drivers, done to protect YOUR own T & C's?

No one has managed to give me an answer to that one yet, and I've asked it alot of times.

Maybe you can be the first?

Sandy Freckle
25th Aug 2005, 20:18
I cannot answer your question, Colonel, because I cannot claim to know industrial law or our agreements that well. I'm not convinced that any group (AIPA included) can protect themselves from such events.

I do know that my position as a Qantas mainline pilot is becoming tenuous, due to Jetstar pilots whiteanting the industry, and beancounters promoting them.

But I do offer this to Jetstar. If you continue this, and you do render mainline pilots redundant, then you will reap the benefits of what you sow. You will eventually suffer the same fate as those you undermine, when others come along and do the same to you.

I would not be pleased to see this happen.

pakeha-boy
25th Aug 2005, 20:34
Sandy....please do not take offence to this.....but you are now getting a lesson as to why pilots are called the biggest sluts and whores around.....look outside of "your world" because it is happening all over.....look at Cathay,and many others....we are our own worst enemies.......kia kaha

OpsNormal
25th Aug 2005, 23:55
Sandy Feckle wrote:

Will someone please explain to me however, how as a Qantas Mainline pilot I can stand by this sentiment whilst idly watching as the Jetstar organisation undermines my own. Jetstar pilots are greedily lapping up the opportunity to do the EXACT same thing as me for half the pay.

Can someone please tell me how I can reconcile this conundrum of wanting to work together whilst they white ant the industry?

Because I'm finding it very hard not to be bitter about watching my career disappear before my eyes whilst our industry is prostituted.

I might start by asking a few questions about consumerism:

1. Have you ever filled your car at of the "cheapie" fuel distributors such as Liberty, Woolworths etc because the price is that much lower than the full service (or even the self serve) BP or Shell etc on the next corner?

2. Do you, or have you ever owned or entertained the thought of owning a small imported style vehicle such as a Hyundai, Opel or a Kia etc? Or even a small vehicle built by a company with a head office outside this country because you just don't want to pay for a larger locally made family car when an imported hatch will run around town at a lower cost (ie; do the same job)?

3. Do you shop for the most part at a larger retailer such as Woolworths, Coles Meyer, Harvey Norman etc because the smaller, family owned business cannot get within cooee of the larger organisations prices or discounts?

4. Read "Choice" magazine?

Congratulations if you have done any of the above, as you are showing signs of being in control of your direction and destiny. What you have done is displayed "consumerism" in its raw form. You have chosen the product or service that has offered you either a bonus or at least a considerable saving to your hip pocket.

Referring to question 1: How do you think the family established service station is going to look upon the people who custom and work for the lower cost fuel distributor, knowing that because of his supply line and higher fixed costs he hasn't got a snowflakes chance in hell of getting within a bulls roar of the cheapies fuel prices. So what does he do? If he is savvy, he will play the game, but only partly. He will certainly drop his price a bit to compete, but he will value add to his product by ways and means to get more utilisation out of the whole site. ie; he will use the price of fuel to get more people in to get their car serviced, or he will have a bonus or incentive scheme where the customer ends up with an amount of fuel for a cetain service, or a certain amount of $$ spent in the shop over a certain time etc. He is now no longer concentrating on making a living out of just the fuel, but using it as a carrot to get the customers in.

Referring to question 2: Remember a time where locally made 5.8 ltr ford falcons and 350ci chev powered monaros and acres of sheet metal were all the rage back in the early 70's? Fuel was about 20-something cents a litre and "big cars for a big country" was the catch cry. There was no such animal as a small "Japanese" or "Korean" hatch, at least not in this country. Then along came the "Fuel Crisis" of the early-mid 70's. All of a sudden, big cars with big engines were dinosaurs in danger of extinction, and the rise of the Toyota Corolla sized vehicle was imminent. Holden and Ford tried to keep up with Escorts and 4 cyl Toranas, but the big winner were the Asian based importers who could supply the country with 1000's of low cost, small economical little buzz boxes and keep up with demand. Why did the demand go up for smaller cars? Consumers realised that they hurt the hip pocket less in many ways than does a larger locally made vehicle. The local manufactures had to scramble to ensure a supply of imported vehicles they could sell as one of their own, until they could ramp up production of a locally made small car, such as a Ford Laser or similar. Then in the 80's along came Hyundai, Daewoo and Kia etc. They yet again undercut the local manufacturers and set records in sales doing so. Why? Becuase of consumerism. The local manufactures have had to evolve yet again. Think of all of the people whose jobs came and went just like that with the market fluctuation.

Referring to question 3: That one is pretty well self explanitory. Why are small business butchers, electrical stores, music shops, small independent grocers, fruit and veg shops etc a dying breed? Large worldwide corporations are now in control of just about any aspect of how you shop, or indeed how much you pay for what you buy. Consumerism drives the average Joe and Josephine to shop where they can walk out with more in their trolley for less, and places like chemists etc are about to start feeling the pinch if Woolies gets their way. Companies like Woolies, McDonalds etc are well renowned for walking into a meeting with a supplier and slashing an already marginal price further to levels below profitability for the supplier, so business after business go belly up in the name of bringing cheaper prices to the consumer and record profits to the shareholder. Without being aware of it, you are playing into the hands of the large multinationals. Just ask our Tassie potato farmers what their thoughts are on dear old "Maccas".

Successive government policies have been leading to true Globalisation for many many years. This plays right into the hands of consumerism as it brings lower prices to the end user - the consumer. Every one of us is a consumer every day. What this means to an average Joe on the street is that he now has a much greater choice and range to choose from than he ever did previously.

In this day and age brand loyalty almost counts for almost nothing as the market is more focussed on being price driven. We have seen this in our industry as the rise of the low cost carrier. There is not a damned thing anyone in our position can do about it, except keep a tenacious hold upon our wages and conditions in the face of what will be a continued onslaught by successive management/s. Those who hold "pilot groups" soley responsible for the woes of pilots renumeration packages today are short sighted fools. Even the fact that there is a fractured assembly of representation groups has to realise that each group is/was trying to get the best for its main stakeholders.

They are right however when they say that it is the old foe who is responsible, "those above us who set direction".

The answer to your question Sandy is simple: There needs to be ONE organisation and one organisation only that represents THE WHOLE INDUSTRY all the way back to new CPL. Only then can the power of one be the power of many. It will cost some jobs at the lower end, but might just make the lower end more viable for a career, instead of going all the way. Think of the good you can do.....

OpsN ;)

Gnadenburg
26th Aug 2005, 00:34
I think tipping should be introduced on Low Cost Carriers. A tipping jar or poor box should be placed at the front and back of the aircraft. Disembarking passengers happy with service above and beyond the call of their $59 airfare, could make tips in appreciation. The proceeds could be then divided amongst the crew.

Once it catches on, crews could nett a few hundred dollars per sector- tax free! Now average this over 4 F/A's, two pilots and four sectors and presto, with my initiative, Low Cost pilots are now receiving a DTA equivalent ( J* allowanceless in my understanding ) and bridging the gap between their conditions an the more fortunates at QF.

I have noted little old ladies on J*/VB flights offering to buy the " boys up front " a Coke or cup of tea - don't underestimate the compassion of the travelling public toward Low Cost aviation.

Ace on Base
26th Aug 2005, 00:47
QUESTIONS-:

Why are there two groups representing Pilots ie. AFAP and AIPA (besides the obvious)?

What does one offer a select few that the other dosnt offer to the rest of the industry?

Isnt this an example of the "divide and conquer" rule?

What has the other done for the "bottom end" of the industry?

What has the one for the select few done for their sector of the industry (seems that those particular pilots are still winging about pay and conditions)?

Maybe these have already been contested time and time again on these forums, I just have not checked.

on a further note - no, I dont subscribe to either of these groups, and find it hard to justify the expence as I cant see the advantage at present - pilots are still squabbling over pay and conditions. Furthermore, I cant see that it will change in the near (5 years or more) future. Call it naive, stupid or whatever, but I do pay full comprehensive insurance on my car just in case I need to make a claim though!

Just some genuine questions, require some genuine answers, not the bullshyte that flows freely from pi$$ed off pilots!

Cheers, and KEEP SMILING SUNSHINERS!!

Ace

Sandy Freckle
26th Aug 2005, 01:00
A well though out reply, Ops. There are a couple of issues that are at stake here, and they illustrate the differences between the industries that you speak of.

1. I didn't work all my life, studying, being checked physically and mentally, to become a service station operator, car manufacturer or work at Woolworths. I am a pilot, I slaved to get to the top of my trade, and now that I'm there, J* pilots come along and undermine and undervalue the trade in the manner of a prostitute? Forgive me for being bitter.

2. You get what you pay for. The pundits will shriek in horror at this statement. It's a simple formula. You pay the better dollars, you get the better people. Now this has been debated time and again on this forum, and there are those who will denigrate the QF recruiting process etc etc. Thats all fine, no recruiting process is perfect, BUT, the simple fact of the matter is that the better people WILL leave in search of better money. WHY? Because they can. This leaves those who are willing to accept such money, for whatever reason. Jetstar.

Your comparison, Ops, is a good one, but should be viewed appropriately.

A better comparison may be: Do you want to contract out Ambo's or Firies to lesser paid individuals? The answer is no, because your life may be in their hands. Same goes for pilots.

So. The offer is out there. Is there ANY Jetstar pilot who is willing to "Join as One" to improve the cause. I think not because they are only out for themselves.

That is why this thread is rather ironic at this point in time. The Jetstar guys are hell bent on "white anting" the entire industry for their own benefit, and to the substantial detriment of current and future Australian pilots. It's hard NOT to be bitter, divisive and disgusted at their behaviour.

Gnadenburg
26th Aug 2005, 01:13
Sandy

A J* F/O can get a 40% payrise and an airline command to undercut your pay and pinch your career path. He will not fall on his sword for you.

You and AIPA need to get smarter.

Personally, as a QF S/O, I wouldn't be budgeting on present long haul command pay.

Sandy Freckle
26th Aug 2005, 01:19
You and AIPA need to get smarter.
I'm sure you are right, Gnad. But how? What exactly can we do?

Management are laughing both at us in mainline, and at the J* guys propensity to bend over and get reamed!

So, if we in mainline take industrial action, then management tell us to get stuffed, sack us all, and tell Jetstar to fly the lot 'cos they're cheap.

I feel like a deer stuck in headlights....

Gnadenburg
26th Aug 2005, 01:42
Sandy

What if both groups took industrial action?

Lodown
26th Aug 2005, 02:10
There'll be several thousand unemployed pilots willing to jump into the jobs.

Do what the doctors and construction workers do...regulate through one means or another (apprenticeships etc.) the number of people getting licences in the first place. Yeah right!!!

Ace on Base
26th Aug 2005, 02:20
Seems that pilots, like school teachers, and bus drivers as well as other career types, all believe they are worth more than they are being paid - difference is, the other industry workers seem to have all their shyte in one sock and can negotiate with their particular industry leaders and achieve a gross increase in pay that seems to be above CPI or inflation - even if it appears that they hold their industry hostage on occasion to the detrement of the end consumers ie hospital patients, bus passangers, etc.

So, the question is - who has a solution to propose changes to the body representing (and being paid 1% of wages) to do something about the state of play? See the way I see it is that the consumer / customer in MOST instances governs the final price, and if they dont, the consumer goes elsewhere. Unfortunatly, there aint elswhere to go unless another organisation is set up (heaven forbid - the divide and conquer rule at work again!).

I am sure that if the members of this organisation (or any other) feel that they are not being paid what they think they should be paid, its simple, members should come up with an agreed "wage", propose this to their representing organisations, and then if there is nothing done about it - stop payment on their annual fees! - it wont take long until that organisation feels the financial pinch, and then decides to act on behalf of its members as a UNITED FRONT!

Further question:

those that do winge about pay and conditions - what do you think we are worth?

Single engine UTBNI 5700 kg?
Multi engine UTBNI 3300kg?
Multi engine > 3300kg, UTBNI 5700 kg? (Command / F/O)
Multi engine > 5700 kg, UTBNI 100 seats? (Command / F/O)
Multi engine > 100 seats UTBNI 200 seats? (Command / F/O)
Multi engine > 200 seats UTBNI 300 seats? (Command / F/O)
Multi engine > 300 seats? (Command / F/O)

additional allowances:

IFR pilot
Instructor pilot
Turbo-prop pilot
Jet pilot

Other aviation industry employees:

F/E - if there are any left?
Trolly Dollies?
Ginger Beers?
Bag chuckas?
Catering?
Check-in staff?
anyone else you can think of?

THEN add these costs together and ask yourself "if the airline or operator that I fly for has the above fixed costs, plus the rise in fuel surcharge (if not passed on to the passengers), and needs around $XX on the aircraft I fly, to achieve this, a YY% sector load factor is required, is this going to see me out of a job if I ask for this OBSURD pay rise because the company has gone into liquidation, or am I better off asking for a smaller realistic pay rise and having a job over the longer term that I will be happier in?

BTW, I am not a bean counter, so I am sure there are other costs I have overlooked!

Additionally, have the LCC's set the industry up with a false economy, and it is on the brink of collapse? (I personally think not)

Also, are we seeing the long term ramifications of the GST in our industry whereby it is almost cost prohibitive to those except the gifted with daddy's silver spoon in their mouths (perhaps it is those in this position that are not happy with the fortnightly yeald that these newfound skills deliver to their back pocket?) to learn the skills of the trade, thereby creating a shortage in the "experienced pilot" area and what negotiating power does this give the piloting fraternaty in asking for mure $$'s in their fortnightly bank account both now and in the future? - Perhaps the representing bodies should be lobbying the Government for tax relief to operators as well, but then pilots wont be happier with that if the Government reduces the GST on aviation because then it would be more affordable for students to learn how to fly, and there will be more competition in the job market, and then it becomes an employers market again and so the wheel goes around again!!

Now I am all confused, hot and bothered, and put in my two cents worth for what its worth, its just some food for thought, what do other industry employees think?

Has anyone got a spare bex and a couch for me to lie in??

Cheers, Keep smiling sunshiners!!

Ace

bushy
26th Aug 2005, 07:24
IT'S COMING BACK TO BITE YOU!

Many of the postings on prune indicate an irresponsible, arrogant "holier than thou" ," Mine's bigger than yours" attitude Belittling of the GA section is a favourite sport.
Most of our airline pilots have got to where they are through the ga system, and many did a lot of damage on the way through Many are still doing damage with the common GA bashing that goes on almost every day.
There are many good GA operators, and pilots, providing much needed services under difficult conditions. Give them a fair go.
Our scheduled airline system is not doing verywell at the moment, and seems to have real accidents, and many incidents.
This week in the territory we had one jet diverting, and another had a tail strike, but we do not run around raving about "shonky airlines " or "clapped out jets"
This behaviour has had the predictable result of damaging the whole of the air transport system, and is moving rapidly into the major airlines.
A change of attitude, and a bit of respect for ones colleaguesis needed. I hope it is not too late.

WHAT YOU DO COMES BACK TO YOUi

numbskull
26th Aug 2005, 14:26
Oh c'mon, flying a plane is not all that hard is it??!!!!

And please don't go on about how many lives are in your hands. I've always thought self preservation was pretty high on the list of reasons to get a plane safely on the ground!!

I sure the novelty of travel wears off pretty quickly and I think that warrants special compensation if away from home for long periods of time.

The pay is just a function of supply and demand and competition. In years gone there was no competition and small demand for pilots which kept wages high.

Having said that I don't think any one would bother becoming an airline pilot for less than what the jetstar pilots are doing it for. So you would imagine that the supply of willing pilots would dry up at that "price". Job satisfaction will only go so far!!!!!!!!!

The same thing is hapenning for LAMES as well. The people from apprentice training told me they used to get thousands of job applicants for apprenticeships at QF. Now they're lucky to get a few hundred.

We don't even have people willing to take our place. GD just keeps on threatening to take the work overseas to keep our wages low(he probably will anyway!!! )

Bolty McBolt
28th Aug 2005, 08:20
You lot are to funny.
This thread is called stop the hatred..and where have you taken it to.
Another slanging match..
One thing that does appear to be a common link..
The ego's.
Reminds me of an old joke.
What the diff between a pilot and Jesus?
Jesus doesnt think he is God after few drinks.

coitus interuptus
29th Aug 2005, 22:39
Mcbolt you are correct.

It never ceases to amaze me how peope just continue to denigrate each other to achieve the sum total of NOTHING. Also be aware there are management stooges in here masquerading as pilot's etc and they successfully stir up the pot. We are generally a little too slow to work it out, and take the bait.

Who cares what role we play in the industry gentlemen? The fact remains if we don't get our act together very soon, it will all be a bit academic.

Back to the subject

STOP THE HATRED

It is not that hard my esteemed colleagues. Instead of slagging each other and making mind numbing comparisons, focus your attention on the root problem. We are being treated with contempt and played off against each other. Don't get sucked in by it.

Start talking to your work mates and canvass the idea of a single POWERFUL negotiating body which covers ALL pilots from airline to GA. No exclusions! It can be done and it is possible. Only a negative mind set will impede progess.

radman
30th Aug 2005, 12:29
here here
but solidarity needs to go from the top to the lowly cpl , educate the lower ranks ......:ok:

prospector
30th Aug 2005, 22:02
"Educate the lower ranks"

That would certainly be a step in the right direction.

"here here" do you mean everybody to come to where you are.

" Hear hear," everybody listen to what is being espoused.

Prospector