Working for EK

[adaou]

Hi,
I'm having an enterview at Emirates for F/O and would like to know how's living in Dubai and also working for that airline.
Thanks

[zericardo]

Hello,
I´ve been approved on Emirates selection program for FO on A310 fleet. I´d like to know some info about this fleet such as types of flight, routes, fleet, upgrade to a captain, transition course and etc...
Thanks,
zericardo

[Scudsy]

The rules at EK mean you will be an F/O on the 310 fleet FOREVER and EVER and EVER......

You must have 3 years in the company before you are eligible for promotion.

The fleet is expanding but by the time your "minimum 3 years" in the company is complete you will probably find that the 310 fleet is at its maximum capacity and fully manned.

Now consider these rules:

No Transition upgrades i.e. you are tied to your fleet awaiting promotion even though the rest of the airline is expanding fast. Emirates is not set up like any other widebody outfit. Some very strange rules such as this.

THIS ANOMALY IS NOT HIGHLIGHTED AT INTERVIEW

Even though you will end up having more experience than the DEC's that are being hired in the mean time you will have to wait on your fleet. Transfers as an F/O onto another fleet are NOT entertained.

The reason you will see so many postings on PPRUNE regarding pissed off EK F/O's is because this is applied without exception. Management positions require flexibility, vision, and openness to conflicting views, a grasp of the big picture. When it comes to this policy we see the opposite applied. It is NOT just that a lot of people want their command in "super quick" time (even if they are not ready, this is the response you'll see posted here on PPRUNE most of the time). They just want a fair system with some sense applied to it.

What people want is a CAREER PATH. An idea of how their career is likely to progress as they continually assess their working environment. This is a natural and normal state of affairs for any employee.

Consider the F/O I met recently with 19,000 hours, transatlantic and widebody. Due to unfortunate downsizing in his previous company he had been put into the RHS for a few months before joining EK. The EK rules say because of this he must join as an F/O. Now any other airline busy hiring DEC's would take a serious look at this guy after 6 months or maybe a year. It's just the sensible thing to do. BUT the rules are rules at EK and NO flexibility so he's stuck on the bus. The bus may become the incredible shrinking fleet if they get rid of the 340's and according to rumours this will happen it also appears to make economic sense to lose the 340-500's.

Imagine you are on the 310. You are going to have zero chances of promotion and this is just plain madness. Emirates have applied this policy based on its historical view of the 2 fleet system. But this is no longer applicable. Think of the number of fleets they'll have soon.

1) 310
2) 330 (non MFF)
3) 330 & 340 (MFF)
4) 777
5) 380

Even if you're taken on by EK to fly the 330, you may find yourself stuck in the same position. Join in a year or two from now and the 777 looks like a risky proposition. If you've only got 4000 hours total time then the 777 is already looking like a gamble. Consequently EK are finding it hard to fill the courses for even this fleet!

There are plenty of good things (42 days leave, bidding system) but is it enough to go on a long career holiday? Can you afford that?

Cost of living is increasing at a massive rate. I've just popped back from Spinney's (my local supermarket) and 3 sweet potatoes cost me 12.55 dirhams. That's 2.78 euro or £1.93 or $3.41. Internet is $140 per megabit per month. Rents are not cheap but gasoline is very, very cheap. Talk of Value added tax being implemented.

Call the recruitment department and check this lot out. It would be wise to have the full picture before coming

Good luck

[Ramboflyer 1]

Tell them u want a letter stating 3 years maximum on 310 then either an upgrade or f/o transition to 777 or 330.
Otherwise go to Etihad same sort of deal but u will upgrade quicker.
Dont come here expecting things to change.
There is quite a few F/os with DEC and Fast track hours who r still a way off command due to being on the wrong fleet.
look out.

:mad:

[harry the cod]

Global Nomad

Interesting comment. Generally, it's not a good idea to wear your hat when doing walkround, especially on a windy day! Still, until the day one ends up inside a GE115........ :uhoh:

Harry

[ruserious]

You really have got it in for Recruitment today

If the hat fit's, wear it
:O

[ENVAR]

Quote:

Also DUBAI is not a relaxed as Brazil, very different culturally


Yeap, I can see how is different. In Brazil they will rob you in daylight and point a gun at you...very relaxing experience.

[flybystring]

Oh yeh and you dont get robbed in Dubai, Ive been robbed in Dubai ever since I came, the thing is; in Brazil if you know who robbed you the police will still arrest them, Ive been robbed here by my employer but what comeback do I have,

Union, uh no not allowed

Civil Legal Case, Umm not allowed and EK retains virtually every firm in Dubai, go ask for an oppinion and see how many you have to go through before you get one.

Get knocked over by a Local - You were Jay walking, the local could not be at fault !

Car accident with an Arab - bakshish will put you at fault.

Company change your contract - umm thats their right.

Your having a laugh mate trying to put the UAE over as the some law abiding, crime free nation, go and ask your maid if your in any doubt how many of her freinds have been raped by their employer and what comeback they have ?

The other posters are correct, EK believes its own bull****, they will not tell you the truth. If you have any doubts ask for it in writing and ask that your contract may be disputed in a country of your choice and see how fast they run for cover.

[puff m'call]

In a words, go find a better job because there are plenty around.

After the gloss rubs off you will soon find it's not the airline it told you it was, i have been here for two years now and have had enough with it all.

Even if you do live to draw you crappy provident scheme you will die soon after because of the way they work you.

Be prepared to fly through multiple time zones with just 24hrs rest in between and come back exhausted, oh and don't screw up because you WILL be on the carpet!!!!!

If you don't belive me then come along, after all of the threads on this airline i'am suprised you need to ask.

"Keep Discovering"

[puff m'call]

Great placement by 7 day today, the Emirates Add for dollys is on the same page as the latest on all the recent air disasters.

Bet that will get them applying, NOT.

[Global Nomad]

Not quite true about "EK don't recruit in Dubai"

A friend of a friend of a friend told me that they had walk in interviews for cabin crew once.....it worked quite well. The taxi driver that bought the housemaid just joined the same line while he was waiting for a return fare, not that either had to wait very long. Shortest interview ever apparently.

So SS, are you worried that the company might hire someone you know?;)

[airvlad]

Seaman Staynes,
you have your facts wrong. There are not plenty of Russians in Dubai - for all that matters, there should be more.
Although I enjoy listening to Russian language, not everyone speaking Russian is from Russia necessarily.
Emirates has always recruited both cabin and cockpit crew in Dubai. I am one of those. And yes, they had to drag me out of 'clone for an interview.
airvlad

[zulumikegulf]

always negative thoughts about EK all the time since i been reading this forum pilots are always complaining that's quite sure :cool: but ...but is it really very very bad ?


I was thinking about EK to join in the future but now i am starting to think twice before i take the decision....

[ekwife]

Mostly only the unhappy people post. If anything positive is said about EK, it gets shot down and people are ripped to shreds. It's better to say nothing!

[amc13]

When one talks about Dubai and about working for EK a comparison is always made to where one came from.

I for one compare what i had to what i have now- i did this when i decided to come to work here in Dubai.

The pros and cons were evaluated and I made the decsion to move. Yes, there are things that irritate you and yes there are things that are good. I always find it much easier to cope when I am pissed of at things by just remembering were i came from and why i came. And for thoose of you who must be questioning were i came from- i came from Europe and from an established airline with good terms and conditions.

In my humble opinion things are not all that bad in Dubai. I know that i am probably going to get alot of slack for expressing such an opinion however that is the truth.

The only thing i tell people before they commit themselves to a move is to come here and evaluate the place as well as possible albeit in a short period of time.

It could be that alot of you who are complaining have been here longer than i have ( for thoose of you who are asking I have been here- not all the time with EK- for over 10 years) and have seen their fair share however things are not that bad.

It is useless expecting things to be the same as home- we are in a different country after all.

settling doen in Dubai all depends on the approach that one takes. Coming from Europe you will have to close your eyes to alot of things- having said that there are things that you can do here that you would not be able to do back home.

Re reading this post i might have come out to be a little patronising-so for thoose of you who take offence at my first post please accept my apologies in advance.

Regards

AMC13

[LHR Rain]

EK Wife is back! Does your husband know that you are writing?

It seems to me that the people who most defend EK (EK Wife and others) have only one arguement. That is only a vocal minority are unhappy and they are the only ones that post on pprune. That is simply not true. The pilots that are unhappy have every reason to post as do the happy ones. The disillusioned pilots tend to back up their feelings with facts: Terms and conditions changing and always for the detriment of the pilots, DECs, contract changes, rapidily deteriorating spending power with no acknowledgement from mangement, traffic in Dubai and on and on.
These are facts and no one not even EK Wife can deny that has happened in the last 3 years. If pilots are not disillusioned of what has happened in the recent past then only two things are the reason for that: one is that they come from the 3rd world and just so darn happy to be here in the sand that nothing will change their minds or that they have recently arrived and only a matter of time and they will be thinking like the "minority" here.
The happy pilots just say that EK is better than where I came from so it must be good. Fair enough but back it up with facts. Say how much you were making back home and compare it with here. But don't forget to add how much money you can send home with the inflation rate here.

[Global Nomad]

OK Heathrow,

I don't disagree with all that you write but you make the following claim about the disillusioned, and I presume you include yourself in that morbid bunch.
The disillusioned pilots tend to back up their feelings with facts......

So because pilots feel bad, they back it up with facts? What came first the chicken or the egg?

Exactly what has changed in your contract?

Don't bother answering, I'll tell you. Nothing.

Has policy changed? Yes, but unfortunately a company has the right to change any policy that is non contractual. Most of EK policy is non contractual. An example, "Hours of Work"


Working hours are established in accordance with the operational requirements of the company. You will be required to work such hours and on such days as directed by the company's duty roster. Furthermore, it may be necessary from time to time to work such reasonable additional hours as the Company may direct, in accordance with the Company's FTDL which are published in the FOM.


In other words, you have to work when they say, including a day off.

On the subject of DEC's;

Totally disagree with it but my opinion doesn't count because it's not in my contract.

Has the company ever hired DEC's in the past, present, future? Yes, yes, probably.

The point I make, is that anyone accepting any position should understand the contract that they are signing.

I hate the driving to, but I don't blame the company.

I am not disillusioned simply because I know what I signed when I came, neither am I from a 3rd world or recently arrived.

Should I find a better contract (and that's all we are on), then I will assess it and make an informed decision.

In the meantime I will continue to enjoy my life, especially when I get to debate with the likes of Heathrow, he just has so much 'feeling'.

[ruserious]

GN, a job anywhere is more than merely a contract. When we joined the company there was the contract which was explicit.
However, the recruitment team and management also filled us in on "how we do things around here" and the various benefits of the job, this was the implicit part of the decision to join.
For all of us that have been here more than a few years (and you have not been here that long and during that time have found a way to get rapidly promoted) it is the changes in the everyday working terms and conditions that are not within the scope of the contract that have changed things so much for us.
Every time there is a negative change, like your wonderful cost-neutral credit scam, you are saying to the employee's, you have no safety net, we can change what we like.
This is why the airline is approaching crisis in both your new and your old department.
When are you and your fellow managers going to get it, every time you sneak a couple of dollars off our contracts it has a cumulative negative effect.
In case you haven't realised it you personally hold a degree of responsibility for the present Flt Ops climate, maybe that's why you defend it so actively.

[LHR Rain]

I of course don't blame the company for the traffic in DXB but it is just one more negative aspect of living in Dubai. Some improvements could be done to the infrastructure but that probably won't happen anytime soon.

Exactly what has changed in my contract?
Are you kidding me? The pay and credit system (it was in the FOM), the terms and conditions are the big items (also FOM). This has probably resulted at the time with a 20% to 25% pay cut. Your figures may vary but please let us all know. The bidding system but I guess that is not a contractable item. Ruserious has put it a lot more eloquently than I ever could.

"Furthermore, it may be necessary from time to time to work such reasonable additional hours as the Company may direct, in accordance with the Company's FTDL which are published in the FOM." Yes we are all slaves in one way or another but the factoring, working two pilots to a lot of destinations, and for most pilots working 18 days a month for 95 hours is not what we signed up for. We all know that some of the FTDL that were published would be very illegal in Europe. The company with help from Flt Ops changes anything it wants with no checks and balances. Certainly not from you in the office to say NO!

How did you move into mangement so quickly? I guess if I had the attitude you do I could make the move as well. It is time for you and your co-hearts to right the ship. It is up to you. How many captains resigned to go back to S.A. this week? That is only the tip of the iceberg. Contrary to what EK Wife writes on this board I am not in the minority for the pilot group. Maybe vocal but certainly not the minority. Change this company for the better, PLEASE! Stop defending and start acting, we all want you to before it is too late. I look forward to your reply and your actions.

[Global Nomad]

I just love these debates.....ok here goes.

The FOM is not part of your contract with respect to pay.

Some of our FTDL's may be illegal in Europe (I don't know and I haven't bothered to find out, nor do I care to) but I have no doubt they are legal in the UAE as the GCAA is the regulatory authority. If they weren't legal, the UAE would be on the ICAO black list just released.

The contract is (and always has been) a very long, long way from being explicit.

No defence, no personal attacks, just the facts.

By the way, do you own a red tie?


:D

[ruserious]

I used to own a red tie, not that it has anything to do with this discussion.

GN, the contract is explicit, what it says is, what it says, by definition that is explicit.

The reason most people join any company is not what is written in the contract, it is based on ALL the other information they can gather on T&C's, company culture etc.

I'm sorry, but you continually defend organisational practise's that are utter crap, both on this forum and in your real life.

If you think what is happening with the 900hours factoring nonsense is legal you are either dumber than I thought, or deeper in denial. ( I never took you for dumb).

Sorry if this seems like a personal attack, I have a very low BS threshold.

[LHR Rain]

FOM had the pay and credit in it and that is what we went on when we joined. That as you know has been changed drastically for the companies advantage. Certainly not cost neutral.

I was not trying to be personal to you but I really sincerely want the company to get better and I think that you can do it. At the very least you are in a much better position to make the changes than I or any other line pilots are. Stand up for us!

Did any of the agencies in Europe or Australlia know about EK and the factoring? Without knowing for sure I suspect that answer is a very definite NO!

Sorry no red tie but I am looking for one. Can you help me?

[SecurID]

If GN=KG then I am very sad at seeing a relatively intelligent man resort to such infantile excuses to support a contract with enough holes in it to satisfy the most eager cheese eater. If it is you Kev, then I am very sad to see you plunge to extremely immature depths. You know that the contract sucks, you know that we're working harder than ever for less relative cash. You know that morale is worse now than it ever was, especially in IFS, and you know that, if you subtract the more extreme rants, what is said on this thread and others, is true. You also know that there are layers upon layers of Swiss Cheese all lining up....

Emmental Airlines anyone?

[Alphaprot]

Jeez, whaddagood read.
RUS if Global Nomad is who I think he is, spot on :ok:
SecureID, Emmental Airlines now that is good, hopefully not prophetic.....

[Vorsicht]

GN has given the perfect answer as to why things are so bad here. If he is in fact management he shows us why it is so easy to manage here. Just quote the book. Unlike the FCOM where it plainly says that it is impossible to cover all situations and nothing replaces sound judgement. These idiots in our management chain just continually change "policy" and when asked to help they just reply "the fom says......".

If we all operated aircraft like you idiots manage people, most of us would have been dead long ago!

[kokkos]

Boys

GN is KG, that fat ass office boy, that never answered the question a few months ago: "do you bat for the other side?"

I would not give him 1 second of my time. He has messed up too many careers.

Along with DEC, just another bad smell that TCK left behind.

[Global Nomad]

Unfortunately this is going to be my last post for a while, but don't worry I will be back.

PPrune, particularly on these threads, offers a great opportunity to provide a balanced perspective on airlines such as Emirates. However, the majority do not post. The minority, such as LHR Rain and a few others (maybe a maximum of 10) provide the majority of the input which takes any balance there was out of it. A lot of what they claim is true but it needs to be corrected in context. Occasionally these more prolific posters whip up some emotional sentiment amongst newbies that "want to be one of the gang" and they resort to pathetic little posts that provide no substance or content of merit that is worthy of a response.

Guys, if you spent a little more time reading my posts for meaning and intent you would realise that I am neutral on most of what goes on in Emirates. Why neutral? Because I very much doubt that it's going to change and I acknowledge (albeit reluctantly) that the contract I signed is the contract that I am working. If the definition of a "contract full of holes" is "an incredibly vague and open contract", then we agree on something. Just get used to the fact that you have signed (as I have) a contract that allows your employer to alter policy at will with no impact upon contracted terms. Do I support this fact? No, but I accepted it and acknowledged the flaws in my contract because it was the best deal going at the time and believe it or not still is. The reason I accepted a less than explicit (by definition: clear, precise) contract was because I looked at everything else that was going on, both here and elsewhere, and came to a balanced decision. When a better offer comes along, I will go as many others will too. However, I'm not going to blame Emirates for a contract that I signed in a good state of mind.

If the contract doesn't suit you, then tell people on pprune why it doesn't suit you and what you intend to do about it, but don't claim the company has changed your contract because they haven't. People DO need to know that the contract they sign will provide conditions in accordance with company policy and that the company policy may (or should I say will) be amended from time to time. Those of you with legal experience in industrial law already know that. People DO need to know that everything outside the contract, including life in Dubai, can and probably will change. LHR's comments about the driving and infrastructure are spot on.

If you want to bag the company and Dubai for meddling in policy to our detriment, then you won't find any argument from me. My only claim is that the contract has not been breached.

Thanks to all the guys that have sent me PM's acknowledging my angle on the subject and thanking me for the balanced view.

PS

Sorry about all the slander Kevin, I'd suggest you send a note down to recruiting asking them to tighten up on the psychometrics.

[Alphaprot]

Is that a spat dummy I see tumbling gracefully through the air :D

Oh and I love the last line, poor attempt at mirrors and smoke

[ruserious]

neutral on most of what goes on in Emirates
Thanks to all the guys that have sent me PM's acknowledging my angle
Sorry about all the slander Kevin

One word Pathetic

[Shake]

GN

Just get used to the fact that you have signed (as I have) a contract that allows your employer to alter policy at will with no impact upon contracted terms. Do I support this fact? No.

But you do support it by doing NOTHING about it. You are willing to sit and take it. This may be all you can do in your particular field and I do appreciate that the option consistantly advised by the pro EK lobby on this forum 'if you don't like it leave' may not be open to you.

However, many (open to debate) do not like it and have, or are in the process of, leaving. Compound this with pilots not turning up for interviews or accepting employment offers then EK will be short of crews. Those they do have will/are being exposed to unacceptable working conditions which will/has threaten safety and ultimately EKs future. If you do not believe this then you may have a case to be 'neutral', if you do accept some of this then you are spineless.

Not even the lure of 777s and 380s are now convincing crews away from high paying 'low fare' operators. Times have changed and EK is failing to adapt and keep pace with what is happening in the job market. Instead of being proactive and 'ensuring the very highest of standards' they are deliberatly waiting to react and are allowing standards to decline.

If that 'vague and open' contract we've signed is now damaging the company then the flexibility that is built in for the company by the company should be used to fix the real problems we now face & not exasibate them.

[Gillegan]

PPrune, particularly on these threads, offers a great opportunity to provide a balanced perspective on airlines such as Emirates. However, the majority do not post. The minority, such as LHR Rain and a few others (maybe a maximum of 10) provide the majority of the input which takes any balance there was out of it.
The implication here (and by others) is that those who are unhappy are a vocal minority. Until a scientific and statistically valid poll is done here (yeah right), I guess there won't be proof but I'll have to say that my sense of the general mood here is one of very widespread discontent.

As far as whether the changes made have been contractual, for the most part, GN is technically correct. Even so, it is a specious argument. If you change the conditions under which people work for the worse, they will not like it. If you do it often, they will really be angry and will begin to leave. In my 10 years here, I have had "contractual items" changed with no recourse available on my part. The fact is that Emirates uses these so called "non-contractual" issues as selling points in their recruitment and then cries foul when people complain upon their change. At the very time when the company was making an unprecedented and unilateral increase in pilot productivity, they reduced the actual pay that pilots receive for increased productivity. Now they act surprised that people are angry. The complete and utter lack of understanding of the human element is the reason that morale is low, staffing (recruitment and retention) is in peril and the sobriquet, "Emmental Airlines" is in danger of becoming more than just a clever passing remark.

Our managers are in denial right now as to the extent of our problems and unfortunately, our corporate culture - one of fear, intimidation and shoot the messenger - shows no signs of changing that. Don't be too hard on GN; he has simply done what any successful manager in an expat culture does. He identified the quickest and easiest path for his own advancement with little or no regard for the long term implications to the organization or to the people that make up the organization. That the company chooses to encourage and reward such efforts is not his fault. The really chilling part about all of this is that the culture that has lead us to this situation - the slavish devotion to cost over quality, the intense centralization of authority that deprives middle managers of any ability to affect meaningful solutions, and the belief that the line employees are simply an impediment to the management running a really slick little operation - shows no sign of changing. This is why I and others no longer see a long term future working for this company.

[SecurID]

WOW! Gillegan, that was the most accurate and concise description of the current climate under which we work. Now which one of you brave boys is going to cut and paste it into a letter to the only people that can really make a difference? It might just work.

As for GN/KG/Whoever's comments about the vocal minority, can I remind anyone reading this of the cost, in financial terms, that a few have sufferred as a result of voicing their opinions in an open forum? Can I remind all reading this of the witch hunts that have taken place in order to find out who is who and who is saying what here? So who is going to dare to speak up? I only ever go to a wireless hot spot and post (all Starbuck's have them) just because I am afraid that the comapny can somehow trace my IP address. Paranoid? That's the current culture that we work under? And I used to be so proud.

Can I remind all of you that the current climate is cost over quality and in some cases, cost over safety. You want an example GN? Then ask the engineering stores of the current stock holding of vital spares, ask the pilots (all of them!) how fatigued they are, ask the cabin crew where their morale is, then address the morale vs. safety issue and you will see that safety, yes safety has been affected.

If I may ask one question, GN, how long have you been here? You may be very correct in your opinions regarding the legality issues, but I did not join this company with the legal aspects of whether my Ts & Cs would change in my mind. I trusted the recruiters and they as a group have also been cut loose with nothing more than a "Thanks very much, now go back on the line we don't need you anymore." Maybe you don't think that the filtering process that a solid pilot recruitment body can be of great benefit to the company? But when I joined, there was a tangible pride in working for the company. Sure, old Graham Jenkins was a bit of a pedantic old sod when it came to things, but he introduced things that were of direct benefit to the pilot group, the seniority list for one. We then had the Al Mulla fiasco, getting caught in an Abu Dhabi hotel sh@gging someone elses missus was the only legacy that he left behind. Then along comes TCK, what a mess that was. Then we had the 'Rudderless' years, Adel comes along, now we have TCAS. That is a synopsis of the personnel tasked with being Head of Flight Operations in less than seven years.

What about Chief Pilots? Robin, John, Paul, Granger, Hassan, Carl, have I missed anyone out? I can't remember. We now have two Deputy CPs, the fleet management of the Boeing has had Brian, Kevin and now Patricia, all in less than seven years. Gibbons has done whatever job he could lay his hands on and as for the rest of the jobs, I have no idea who does what now. I have no idea who the training guys are and who is head of training these days? Is it still the safety guy?

The above change in personnel in key positions is just one layer of Swiss Cheese.

Engineering. We used to have Engineers on the line dipatching us, we now have mechanics. Result? A degredation in the support afforded to us by the Engineering department. I have never flown with as many ADDs as I do now and that is the truth.

That is another layer of Swiss Cheese.

Another one is the general low level of morale. We have not won a single prize of note in quite a few years. Those prizes made us all feel proud and kept morale high, now, as a result of a ridiculous pace of expansion and associated cost cutting in key areas, the prizes have dwindled.

Another layer slides into place with holes lining up too nicely for my liking. I could go on and on and on, but my Cappucino is getting cold.

For anyone in a position of power who may be reading this, the pilot group, almost as a whole, are very fatigued and tired. Many of us are looking around for new opportunities and feel that Emirates is going away form its original emphasis on quality and its original corporate culture of being the EK family, a family that it felt good to be part of. Now ask a DEC if he feels part of that original corporate culture and he'll probably answer, well, so long as you pay me enough.

Please, many of you who read these posts think that they are the work of evil and malicious pilots, intent on bring the airline to its knees. Wrong. This is the only place that we can air our frustrations and try and get someone to listen to the genuine fears and issues that we, on the line, are facing every day. But then it hasn't worked so far, so why should it now?

And GN, just in case you were wondering, morale is at its lowest in the eight years that I have been here.

[Jack D]

Gilligan , very articulate post . I might add that management skills are still in an immature state within Middle Eastern culture an MBA does not create an instant manager , far from it .

As inadequacies are exposed usually by the exponential growth of organisations and increased competition , the fear factor of failure spreads upwards and outwards leading to ever increasing "defensive posturing " and indecision on the part of our leaders . Who is exactly in charge around here ? as you rightly stated the extreme centralisation and desire to comply with local cultural behaviour , i.e fear of offending , lead to indecision on a grand scale . This renders all middle management impotent (in the managerial sense) except for administrative issues and minor changes to daily routine.

Success is judged by how far up the management ladder one climbs , sadly not by the morale and good will , not to mention loyalty one engenders within the work force. Save a few Dhs and you are successful , the attitude of the corner shop manager or rug trader , I think we deserve better than that . Why isn,t it possible ?...please don,t mention oil prices .

[Gillegan]

Who is exactly in charge around here ? as you rightly stated the extreme centralisation and desire to comply with local cultural behaviour , i.e fear of offending , lead to indecision on a grand scale . This renders all middle management impotent (in the managerial sense) except for administrative issues and minor changes to daily routine.

I'm not sure that the "head in the sand" mentality garnered by the "shoot the messenger" attitude (how's that for overuse of metaphors - issue that guy a yellow card) is really a result of the local culture. In fact, if you look around the industry (and other industries), you see a lot of the same, destructive behavior. The difference is that most of the companies that mimic this behavior have stockholders that must be placated on a quarterly basis. Emirates is in the unique situation of being able to take a longer view. Why they are so focused on the short term is really a mystery to me.

I suspect that the impotent middle management is partially a function of the way TC and others choose to manage along with a desire to control costs (a laudable goal). I came from an airline that would lose money if you gave it to them in a bag so I can appreciate the desire to keep a lid on things. Unfortunately, you set up the organization to avoid one problem and you create two in its place. Somewhere else on this forum, a former Emirates manager stated that he oversaw 70 to 80 people yet only had budgetary authority up to Dh500. That, in my mind says it all.

[Jack D]

I see your point in fact in retrospect such behaviour exists in many cultures and organisations as you said.

However I do feel that the option to offer constructive criticism may be compromised by local tradition rather than by the personality of one,s superior, after all most of our managers have no safety net either . Just a thought .

The cost control is of course sensible , but proactive behaviour i.e earning more revenue must be the main goal , it is true to say as others have said before , crews are at their limits in terms of fatigue, there is no more juice in the lemon., and market forces beckon.

Interesting regarding the lowly budget allocation , anxiety or lack of trust ? who knows: and the long term view aspect, or lack of it ,is a very good point . Shareholders in the form of the Govt. of Dubai may be just as anxious for profit on a quarterly basis ? what say.

[turtleneck]

some effects of human and business nature that not even the most brilliant display of
ek-management's arrogance can overcome:


employees will only respect their employer as long as the latter respects mutual contracts and
makes every effort to stick to promisses.

employees will always serve customers in reflection of treatment endured from their employer.

too many resignations or lack of suitable applications reflect uncompetitive or unbearable t&c’s,
more often a combination thereof.

failure to timely tackle such problems not only agravates the internal situation, it also fuels
the competition.

subsequent fading morale is a early warning sign of incapable management, mostly paired with
the ineptitude or unwillingness to counteract. the ineviteable successors face exponential costs
to repair the damage the customer can not be made to pay for. it will therefore once more be
burdened upon employees, fuelling a vicious spiral (see above).

to blame it on employees for not speaking up, or on middle management for covering up, is nonsense.
it is the downright responsibility of the leaders to get the complete picture and act accordingly.



hh sa must act or settle for second or third best in this region. slumping ratings or empty classrooms
speak for themselves. if he persists on paying peanuts he might still get some monkeys, but even monkeys
will eventually walk if you don't treat them adequately.

“Human nature is such that managers who are out of their depth WILL resort to bullying and coercion;
a poor corporate culture WILL develop. CRM has become just another tool to whip employees
(Captains in original text) over the head - to test them, to tell them they are failing, to blame them.
Frankly, CRM should mean CORPORATE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT - and managers should be tested too.
I think the public would be shocked to know that they aren't.”
(by: Moshansky, Virgil P. Commissioner (1992) Commission of the Inquiry Into the Air Ontario Crash at
Dryden, Ontario, Fifth Report, Volume III, page 1090)

[Global Nomad]

Just call me Cher....

I know my early return will gain some vitriolic response, like I give a ****.

Since my last post there have been seven new posts. OK make that ten, it took a while to write this one. How the hell would I ever write quickly enough to gain an MBA? Anyway, three of them are brilliantly written by articulate people and are worthy of a reply. I've ignored the identity crisis bits that they included.

Shake

Last paragraph, couldn't agree more. As you said, the same flexibility in our contracts should be utilised to turn things around. I'm not holding my breath though.

As for being spineless, Jack London was spineless. I'm a realist.

Gillegan

It may only be a technicality, but it's important to me. Thank you for acknowledging the fact all the same.

Your 2nd paragraph, no argument from me. Very succinct.

3rd para....sorry, find another lure...


SecurID

2nd para, got to be careful out there. Look after yourself, because no one else will. Now that's different to being spineless, in the climate we work in (Middle East, no employment law), it’s downright sensible.

3rd para. Thank you, but I don't need any examples. Just like you I live with it every day but you are quite correct.

4th para. How long have I been here? Well let me put it this way, the rudderless years occurred way before Jenkins, just ask EUH. GJ, despite his faults, did introduce a lot of benefits that many take for granted, in other words, it used to be a lot worse. No excuse for dismantling anything though.

5th para. Chief pilots? You forgot Larry, Toni & Terry (rip).

Look, your whole post is good reading because it tells some facts and, although emotive, it's the right kind of emotion because it's not personal. I sincerely hope that the right people do read it because it's good stuff.


Don't think I'm going all soft though guys, I am still reasonably content here, I just don't sweat the small stuff. Before anyone vents fire into my modem, small stuff is only relative to an individual. The big picture is still ok for me, but like anything, it could change overnight.

On a completely different note....bring on the sequel to "The Caravan".

[SecurID]

Emotive? Too bloody right it's emotive, because I care!

Off to bed, will write again tomorrow, if I don't get called out. :(

[Jack D]

Oh no ! more MBA ,s than we can shake a stick at . I have one too but as always these things have a limited shelf life as theory changes.

It goes like this: GN nice analytical work picking the wheat from the chaff but missing all points made by more direct means .
I refer to Turtleneck who covers the main issues and uses reference material from far wiser heads than all of us .

The cabin crews are dropping like flies , picked off from flights as they go through security at CBC to crew a flight that departs 15 mins earlier in the hope that the reseve will turn up for the original flight. This occurs continually so I presume finally we have a skeleton crew for the last flight of the day ?

We are not in the classroom now, so between us where do all these Admin people come from ? far too many and totally innefective in fact more an irritant than of any use .. cut back by at least half !.

I could go on and offer some meaningful ideas but in the end I,m just a line Pilot as are all of my frustrated professional colleagues ,I have to say the discussion has been interesting , get yourself down to the front lines and you just might make a difference you seem to be a little frustrated yourself ?

Jack

[ExpatDubai2001]

As the "Ex EK Manager" with the limited financial authority (being pedantic, it was actually a USD 500 limit and I had 50 odd staff), I find this thread alarming.

There seems to be a major disconnect between the front line folks (Flight deck / Cabin crew) and the management. This is not the way to take EK forward to becoming a major, global airline.

When I joined EK, it WAS a great place to work in the sense of a small Airline that was getting international attention. We were winning awards regularly (anyone remember the free Airline of the Year staff tickets) and there was a real focus on quality as the EK ethos. More importantly, I felt part of a team that was working together to build a major aviation presence.

That all seems to have gone down the toilet. I left when I could no longer make a difference (IE, my decisions had to be ratified by several layers above me that had absolutely no knowledge of what they were deciding on). Please do not be to harsh on the middle managers because they have been emasculated.

My own opinion.....if you don't like it any more......Leave !!!!.

[Global Nomad]

Seaman,

Use my whole quote if you choose to do so. Your rather shortened quote and an attempt to link it with management style is just plain misrepresentation.

What I actually said was

I know my early return will gain some vitriolic response, like I give a ****.

In other words, a vitriolic response would be ineffective.

You weaken the strength of your own posts content by making such comments. Those that you try to dissuade will look at my quote in context and may treat the rest of your post with a different degree of credibility to what you intended.