Serco, staying or going? (Merged)

[piniped]

So what is the goss?

Will UAE be ridding itself of Serco, or will the contract be extended again?

Rumour mill has it 50/50 each way, although the deadline I hear is around mid September. (To give all it's employees 3 months notice)

Who knows, if the DGCA take over, it may make some of them a little more pleasant to talk to on the lines:E

[niknak]

Serco may or may not go, but whatever and wherever it happens, unless there are a lot of local staff trained and validated, most of the ex - Serco staff will still be there.

The ATC side of Serco has taken a severe kicking in the last 12 months, and I understand that the board are taking a very close look at what's happening now and what is likely to happen within
the next 5 years with ATC contracting in the UK.

It has been alleged, and I've no proof of this, that the UK operation no long makes money for the company. Fewer regional airport providers want to contract out ATC, and there is much twiddling of thumbs in an office in Hook.

Serco as a multi national company makes serious money, and I'm sure they wouldn't tolerate any loss making operation anywhere within.

[Fox3snapshot]

Sounds like Management speak to me.....
:zzz:

[GLOC]

Word from a friend down the road on the said contract is that they can't get people to come to the center and the GCA attempt of filling gaps with Malaysian controllers has fallen into a heap with them all heading back home after limited or no success.

If you want quality, don't shop at the 1 Dirham shop pay the bucks and get the service....I know of an airline or two in this region that are going down the same road, but that's being covered well on another thread! :p

[piniped]

Sorry niknak, I should have been more specific in the heading.

I was really asking about the UAE (Abu Dhabi to the uninitiated) contract that is due up again.

The staff will of course still be there and you would imagine that they would be in a pretty damned good bargaining position.
without the Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads from Serco, they may stand a good chance of doubling their salaries.

Then perhaps they might sound like they were in their "happy place" rather than what some now are like...lost a pound and found a penny!:}

Funny how some of the more vocal types defending the "push em down rule" have been strangely silent on this thread?:suspect:

[divingduck]

Gone awfully quiet on this thread, lots of views and not too many opinions.

Seatstrap I think even Serco will have to dig into it's coffers to keep the staff. If you guys walk, they are totally out of business. It may be about time that someone pointed this out to them.

Doha, Bahrain, Dubai and Muscat all get way better deals than the guys in UAE...people usually go where the money is..with one notable exception (sorry foxxy)

[cat man do]

Sorry to burst your bubble old boy. Not a case of being quite, it's just a case of not enough facts to go on. From what i hear negotiations have not even started. I can only express my hope and that is that is is sorted out properly so we know where we stand and can get on with our lives.

Whats the deal in MCT? Still hearing rumours of salary but no confirmations. Ole foxy is munching on the bit here.

[piniped]

Dearest Moggie,

Do attempt away at bursting my bubble..I shall check my
give-a-stuff-ometer as to whether it is sorted out or not.

I was only hoping that the boys up there finally received a fair days pay for a fair days work. and that the boys are in a fairly strong (read nigh on impressive) position from which to bargain.

The deal here is that the powers that be are seriously looking into big time recruitment. what would be the equivalent of 30000 of your dirham thingies per calendar month, find your own accomodation.

To give an idea of that cost, see foxxy...

Put that up against what is on offer in UAE and tell me if you think you are being looked after up there?

[Fox3snapshot]

Which I am!!!!!!!!!!! Yippee Ki Yi Yay!

Cat Man Duz
Not chomping at the bit mate, just taking a holiday and waiting for the entertainment to unfold! Time is ticking and no prizes for guessing where my Omani coffee table will end up if things dont improve in the Bronx!

Pluck Me, A Diving Duck
One must conceed that one has not enjoyed the lifestyle that one had in Sunny Seeb, but now that one has gained the experience to realize this, improvement will be made forethwith.....:E

Well must dash, about to chase some wild boar in Tuscanny....that's Boar with a 'B' not 'H' :p

See you soon....Inshallah!

[burjalrumaithy]

Gentlemen,
It doesn't matter if Serco get the contract or if Gcaa go direct hire.
Pay and conditions will always be substandard as long as Rj is in charge!!!

[Tweety]

Ah yes

the dashing Dane!!
Hasn't anyone managed to remove him yet. Maybe mother nature will take its course for you and the rest of us looking for greener or dustier and more financial pastures.

Keep me posted if that happens!

What is the story with the other contracts in Bahrain and Dubai?

TTFN

Tweety

[cat man do]

Tell you what, a couple of us are keen on the direct hire route, at least you know what you're getting salary wise. With Serco the single guys are subsidising the married ones. Serco should be aware of this already, wonder if anything will be done.

[Fox3snapshot]

Yep, clutching at staws offered the priveledge of Sheik Tanoon for three months....after that who knows?????:confused:

[Fox3snapshot]

Sheik Tahnoon would have been the way ahead except the Lebonese Mill is under new management and they don't have machine chickens at the moment :(

seatstrap 1st of October....might be 3 days too late...:sad:

Chinz up though, looks like The Ratz back...:p

Must dash, have an appointment with another bottle of Tuscanny red! :ok:

[cat man do]

Heard the cockroaches have also moved to sheik tahnoon, they couldn't handle foxies neighbours. Don't worry foxie, you now have somethings to help you carry.:D

Welcome back le seatstrap. I am concerned that you agree with me, i'm not sure who has swayed, you or me.....gasp...shock :yuk:

Come on RJ sign us up :ok:

[divingduck]

Cat Man Do

Is that you HJ??

If so did you hear Masher retired the other day?

cheers

[Fox3snapshot]

Not coming home mate....the thought of, hold on a minute did I just call Subaru home...aeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiieeee!:{

I will get the UAE Government Bio hazard team in to collect my belongings and I will make my way down to the Salvation Army shelter and start busking for my next meal....:(

:p

[Tweety]

Guys

gone very quite on t this thread of late, c'm0n how about more info on the overtime, is serco really paying for this and in reality just how many are you down on your 32 man roster there guys.
:O :O

Are you now lying low just in case your jobs do come up for grabs if Serco do get the push.

Keep us all informed, as if Serco do get the bums rush then you may find an attempted mass exit from Oz which will only exacerbate the already precarious staffing issues now facing Airservices in both BN and ML.
;) ;)
Await your further communication with updates on the AUH saga.

TTFN

tweety

[ferris]

I think all the info is out there. What do you want to know?
The GCAA is paying the OT, at 2000dhs per shift. The cancer that is OT has arrived. The mass exodus you are talking about is actually OUT of AUH. Why do you think they are resorting to OT? The guys here are doing the OT in order to bring their money up to where it should be anyway. How long do people think that will continue? The ridiculous rosters, the lack of days off, and now the OT will lead to fatigue, sickness and sap morale (and there is precious little of that).
It's sad that people are working on their few days off for money they should be getting anyway. Take a look around the gulf and see that most places are realising what they have to pay. AUH lags so far now, it isn't funny. The problems mount, and Nero fiddles.

Serco will not get the bums rush- not this contract. They will get a renewal. The GCAA realise they cannot staff the contract, so Serco will get one last go (and mess it up totally, as usual). Trouble is, RJs battle with Serco just hurts the staff, and not just the expats.
Lots of other places hiring with much better T&Cs. A simple fact.

[Tweety]

Ferris

Tks for your reply, I will take it from your repsonse that you guys are about 1/3 down on the roster and I believe there is still a few in thier resignation period, ouch!! Obviously, Serco is very much on the nose there:( :(

It would be a pity if they did get the contract back, they do not deserve it from what I can see. The GCAA would be better off throwing out the baby with the bathwater and giving direct hire a shot, and set the standard for the Gulf and pay at least 28,000 AED/mth +decent villa accommodation, schooling, fares, and all the usual stuff, if they are paying 2000AED per o/t shift then I do not see the difference, they are obviously able to dig deep when necessary.
remember it was not that long ago that Doha was paying less than AUH and taking on 3rd worlders as well, with no result. Then there last 2 white expats departed almost simultaneously and one was up on drug charges and they were on the bones of their arse. They finanlly realised they had to pay decent money to have a chance of snagging decent and capable staff, and I believe they are now paying 27,000 QAR /mth but the accom only avg and they still have not quite got it right, but they have the idea, so now it is time for AUH to follow. DIRECT IS BEST AND IT GIVES YOU MORE CONTROL.

On the matter of very few days off/fatigue , if there is a major deal because of this factor then you can bet ICAO will stick their nose in where the GCAA does not want it (like HK back in the 70's/80's) and they will be forced to pay with a big stick because the airspace will be blacklisted and RJ's hold on power will most likely see him on the slide, so if he has any smarts he will know what must be done and now!!

As for morale, my understanding from those who have been there over the last 15 years is that there has never been any, especially since Serco bought out IAL and some guy by the name of Grant Rumbles climbed the management ladder, and apparently has now fled the ME coup, he could see it coming.
:confused: :confused: So I ask what is your MATO (Rick Sharpe ?) doing about all this?

Anyway, I hope for you and the other guys there that things go the right way for a change.

If I am wrong about the number of staff you are short, please feel free to set the record straight.

What then are pay and conditions like in Dubai, I would have thought that the pay and conditons would have been fairly similiar to AUH as it is still a Serco contract is it not?!

TTFN

Tweety

[Fox3snapshot]

With that sort of insight are you sure you are not working on the UAE contract....????? :p

[burjalrumaithy]

Good on ya Tweety!!!
you've given people an insight into how one can deal with rj efficiently. His bullying, tyranny, incompetence and pre historic tactics are wearing very thin with everyone and he has never fought fairly , his opponents have always had at least one hand bound behind their backs. ie he has always had the unfair advantage of firing people who were found '' undesireable for the contract''. standing up for what is right has always made people ''undesireable.'' right FERRIS!!! unfortunately the problems for us controllers are compounded by the fact that our cm doesn't have any arms to be bound , .... or legs or even backbone !!! we've no one to bat for us. thanks to pprune though we've been handed a sword.
Hey Foxy , who needs to go trekking in the Himalayas when you can climb the mountain of rubbish in the skip outside you're building!! getting back to Tweety, I'm sorry mate but you're fooling nobody,
you are definitely a SERCO slave.
Big Hello to Rat !!
My Hero

[ferris]

If I am wrong about the number of staff you are short, please feel free to set the record straight The staffing situation cannot be blamed on Serco alone. Whilst it is very convenient for the GCAA to blame Serco for all their woes, it is both of them who are at fault. The GCAA are running a roster where it is standard to receive 7 days off per month. That's right, a STANDARD roster has 7 days off per month! They then expect you to work overtime on those precious days off. 7 days off per month, and then they blame for Serco for not being able to staff the unit. Serco is by no means blameless, and truly do deserve to have the contract taken away, but it's a very convenient situation for the managers involved to be able to blame the other. As conditions worsen, more staff leave, and so it goes, a vicious circle.What then are pay and conditions like in Dubai, I would have thought that the pay and conditons would have been fairly similiar to AUH as it is still a Serco contract is it not?! Glad you raised this. One of Serco's faults is that they treat each contract as a totally seperate entity, when it suits them eg. the DXB controllers live in villas, get a whack of money to furnish it etc etc, whereas the AUH controllers are treated as the poor cousins (apartments, hand-me-down crap furniture etc etc). It appears to the slaves as though the DXB DCA (the contractors in DXB) value their controllers a lot more than the GCAA (the area contractor). But it's a combination of factors, such as the ongoing fued between Serco and RJ, the spineless and powerless contract manager (but he's OK, he's lives in a villa!!), politics, culture etc etc. The end result is the staff suffer. You could put up with the ineptitude of the CATCO (he still thinks lots of people like and respect him:zzz: ), the culture of disengagement and fear etc etc. if the T&Cs were OK. But they aren't, and they don't have much time to fix the things that can be fixed. Years of fiddling, and Rome has nearly finished burning. It's OK for the expats, we can leave (and are:ok: ), but the locals think this is how it is. Sad really.

BTW, burj, I have a wooden spoon with 'the blues' emblazened on it for you.

[burjalrumaithy]

welcome back le Rat mon ami !!
and hello to all my fellow sub mariners. yes the sinking ship is now a submarine , the only ones floating on the surface are the turds of management. it's such a shame that so many good guys are left with no option but to leave abu dhabi. it's a great place to live and very sociable. ( outside of the squalor that serco forces us to live in) that is. the anger displayed by the many serco employees is clearly evident throughout the posts and most of us are livid that we are forced to look elsewhere for work. to all you ppruners out there The pay and conditions on the UAE centre contract in Abu Dhabi are not acceptable. full stop!!! . don't come running out here even if you have gotten the babysitter up the duff !!! it's just not worth it .
with reference for our emirate colleagues, they get a raw deal too at the centre but it's very important that they realise that this is not how an ATC centre works in reality or how a contract should be (mis) managed. their morale is very low and i wouldn't be surprised if some of them packed in ATC completely . it would be a terrible shame as most of them are top notch!!! but why put up with all that crap when they can do far better in an alternative career.
au revoir for now
dive dive dive

[Vercingetorix]

Burjalrumaithy, Therat, Ferris et al,
been reading your posts with mild shock, horror, etc. (& amusement). Not much else to do in the southern desert.

If, as you all seem to agree that the Serco accommodation is crap and the management both Serco & others is questionable i.e, RJ is not nice to Serco, Serco CM is spineless & the CATCO is inept, why are you all still there?

Is it perhaps that you like to snipe behind their backs and do not have the courage to talk to them direct, or is it that perhaps you are a bunch of snivelling little kids who don't have the courage to vote with your feet.

Your juvenile scribblings must make your management look on all their employees with disgust instead of just the few that they should despise as spineless nonentities.

Gentlemen, be real men and vote with your convictions and your feet.

Bonne chance avec les gripes

[Fox3snapshot]

I have just had a bad day trackside at the Monza Formula 1 where my Ozzy racing hero managed to get nowhere....again!

So technically I should be really angry and vent my splean here....:{ , but reading the last page of posts I have been entertained to the point where my 280 Euro day has not been wasted....!:p

Verci You know I don't have to hide behind my Prooning disguise....if something needs to be said I will always say it :E

See you all soon, assuming the overbooked Lufthansa flights have room in the cargo hold!

:ok:

[Vercingetorix]

Fox 3

bonne chance avec le'escargot

Veni, vidi, verci ! (oops)

[ferris]

An interesting post, VercingetorexRJ is not nice to Serco, Serco CM is spineless & the CATCO is inept, why are you all still there? Perhaps you've missed the point of many of the posts? We are voting with our feet, genius, and that is what is raising interest levels in the higher management. It just isn't a simple thing to change COUNTRIES, and takes a little thought and planning.Is it perhaps that you like to snipe behind their backs and do not have the courage to talk to them direct I think you'll find some HAVE been talking to them direct. Will be interesting to see the consequences.or is it that perhaps you are a bunch of snivelling little kids who don't have the courage to vote with your feet. We are voting with our feet, hence the sudden management angst. I would've thought "snivelling" was better defined as someone who was incapable of making a decision, and had to run off to RJ with even the most trivial matters. The sort of behaviour that earns one the nickname DING (sound of the lift on the way to RJs office).look on all their employees with disgust instead of just the few that they should despise as spineless nonentities. Yes, it's a shame that we all get tarred with the same brush as the likes of the CATCO. At least he is old, and won't be in the job much longer.Gentlemen, be real men and vote with your convictions and your feet Now, if I was the big boss, I'd want to find the person making those sorts of statements, and cut out the cancer. The problem for the big boss IS that people are voting with their feet. It's certainly not behaviour I'd want encouraged! So, whilst shooting messengers may work in the short term, actually getting leaders into jobs, such as the (may as well be vacant) CATCOs, and FIXING THE PROBLEMS instead of trying to quell dissent, might have beneficial long-term effects.

Who are you going to be the chief of, when there are no indians? Indians?
(sound of tumbleweeds in the centre...........)

[Tweety]

gentlemen

I can see this thread has become quite personal, and unfortunately for the Serco management they VERY MUCH DESERVE WHAT IS SERVED THEIR WAY BY THEIR CURRENT AND FORMER STAFF, and that incl Verci. Yes, they feel this is not warranted, well I say get out from under your f:mad:ng rock and look around and listen for a change, the chips are down and it looks like for the last time you are still walking around with blinkers on.

I have to agree with Ferris and others, YES you must all vote with your feet becuase this is the only way these bastards MAY see any sense. ICAO may them become involved and set things right for once. Sometimes in life one has to take risk to ahcieve greater things.

from what I have been told by colleagues there, RJ always felt he could just pick up a headset and sit in and do it, well now might just be his chance to run the centre on his own??:\ :\



AND!!! if anyone questions it just fire them!! PPruners I know that's an outrageous statement and not even funny in jest but it actually happened In UAE acc. right VERCI.

One of my mates only spent about 2 months in the UAE with Serco and had the audacity to question something the then CATCO said and before you know it he was on a plane home just prior to his checkout (and he apparently would have checked out with no probs), and with no discussion allowed to be entered into...... this is the SERCO way.

and to Burjal.... no sorry I am not a SERCO slave and if all goes well the guys there will not be much longer.

Yes the Serco management are basically spineless and it is true that the sh.t does float, and even moreso in the Serco team and the UAE.

March now my friends LEFT, LEFT, LEFT RIGHT LEFT....

looking forward to the fireworks to come.
Foxxy you still listening??


TTFN

Tweety

[Dct no speed]

To all,

I heard that it is not only in OMAA that guys are unhappy but OMDB to.

Rent gone up, cost of living, more planes and less skie to work in.
6 ATCO's left in the last year.Sounds like Muscat and Doha calling some others away as well.

Rumour has it that AA guys get 2000 aed over time but DB guys only 1000 aed ?

Seems OMSJ cm like AA cm also only in it for himself. ATCO's also have to visit the Salvation army for furniture and accomodation sucks :yuk:

[Vercingetorix]

Therat, Ferris, Burj, Tweety et al.

Cages rattled, uh? Home truths unpalatable?

The nature of your responses would appear to confirm my thoughts re: snivelling, juvenile, etc.

Ferris, in a previous correspondence you told me that you worked approach at Hong Kong. ( Info received from a colleague who flys with CPA says that you did not) Therefore have to assume that that piece of disinformation is as reliable as the rest of your posts.

Should any of you wish to meet me you can find me in Al Ain but you would need to be both an officer and a gentleman to be allowed onto the premises.

Love & kisses

[RustyNail]

We in the sand-box understand and sympathise with you in AUH.

Keep strong boys, there may be idiots (RJ) and bigger idiots (Serco) trying to be self-important under the pretence of being "managers", but take consolation in the fact that others around you are trying to make your jobs a little bit easier. We know what you are going through.

In this case the grass actually is greener, pack-up and go boys.

:ugh:

[burjalrumaithy]

well verci , if you're in Al Ain that says it all. what are you upto now is it 50 movements a day or does that include bowel as well.
you wouldn't hack the workload in uae acc. you've been sitting in the desert sun to long . crawl back under your stone and wait for the next airshow. might see some action then!!!
don't try to piss with the big boys. you wouldn't make it past al khatim.
Hey ''airno'' what the hell have you been doing. I got chased up a tree by a GFA rottweiller. thought i was you.

[ferris]

Home truths unpalatable? Well, we know who that applies to.Info received from a colleague who flys with CPA says that you did not How would he know who I was? How would 'a pilot with CPA' know where anybody had worked, especially when he didn't know who they were? hahaha. Drawing a very long bow trying to discredit me there. I know plenty of CPA pilots, and none of them have ever heard of your anonymous CPA pilot. Are you sure that you are checking your fantasy pilots against the correct anonymous posters, who may or may not exist, because my made up friends don't believe any of your facts anymore? hahaha. Be careful that your self-delusions don't cross-over into checkable facts. We have people looking at YOU, right now.
If you don't like what's in the posts, too bad. Can't even play the man properly. What a winner:zzz: . If you don't want to rely on my posts, I'm sure there are plenty of others who can tell it like it is (especially where you are concerned). Or doesn't the CPA pilot know them either? hahaha LMAO.

Burj, no point slagging off Al Ain. A CPA pilot told me Vercing isn't from there. Much closer to home.

And yeah, the GFA pilots are sooo polite, now. Wait til they get hold of ANSA!

[burjalrumaithy]

hey Verci!
next time you shuffle up to me on north and you're pretending to be my best pal with tales of your great days in west drayton , where i reckon you worked as a window cleaner, inside i'm bustin' my ass laughing at you. enjoy jebel hafeet . with any luck you'll take the short route down.
must drain the pasta
au revoir

[Tweety]

Gentlemen

Please, enough of the personal jibes, can we please stick to the topic which is the GCAA contract renewal. If Verci is part of that slack management team then I guess his day will be coming shortly.

By all means jibe away at Serco and their mismanagement and march with your feet if you feel that strongly against this lot (incl Verci) as this may be your only option at the end of the day if Serco stay.

If they "get the bums rush" then you are in a much better postion to get what you really deserve and may peak my interest as well.

stay cool people, the fun is about to begin.

TTFN
:ok: :ok:

[PMS]

Hi all

I have been reading this thread with interest and at the end of the day it is apparent that everyone knows the reality of the situation, incl RJ and Serco.

Apparently in about 3 weeks the resignation notices will come out giving the Serco staff 3 months notice -(which is exactly what happened last time) and whamo after the fat lady sang a contract was signed and I assumed that was becuase Serco did not want to lose it and RJ got what he wanted, (if this take is incorrect then please feel free to set record straight) and Serco were quite happy to keep screwing the staff to make their margin and more or minimise their losses. If they have been losing their staff just after the 1st 12 months then this will most likely be costing them money.

Yes there is a 50/50 bet this will happen again, but if they are really losing money on the contract then maybe they will not accept it this time and let the GCAA go it alone and see what happens and if it turns into a cock up then they are conveniently on the sidelines to pick up the pieces and get a new contract on their terms (whether this will really help the staff is doubtful as they have been used to kicking them when they are down for the last 15years so why stop now) and most likely be rid of RJ at the same time, because the Arabs will have to save face and RJ is the one steering the ship so the captain would have to fall on his sword.

Option B is the GCAA muddle through and come up with the goods (read above average contract conditions and pay that one couldn't say no to ... ,What did Tweety say -"set the standard for the rest of the Gulf" and make it happen and RJ is hailed a hero by the locals and the end up with the most experienced staff and actually happy to be there.

The tell tale sign will be if RJ/GCAA actually starts advertising for new staff within the next 2 months (bearing in mind that they would most likely need at least 8 weeks to get someone up to rating standard - unless they had been there withing the last 5 or so year), then highly likely Serco have definitely lost the contract. No new staff then Serco are back in the business of shafting and you guys are then stuffed.
You can bet Serco aren't that stupid and will be watching for this as well.

fox3 have not heard from you on this thread for a while, appreciate you opinion on this?

bye for now
:\ :\

[llchew]

burjalrumaithy

"Get another load of cheaper Malaysians in - that will solve the problem, at least one out of a hundred is bound to check out. AS a pseudo pilot that is"


GLOC

If you want quality, don't shop at the 1 Dirham shop pay the bucks and get the service


Gentlemen,

I am very surprised and disappointed that these kind of derogatory remarks are still made by controllers against fellow controllers. If you have an axe to grind with GCAA or Serco, post your frustrations but running down fellow controllers just sucks. The Malaysian controllers are just trying to get something more for themselves.

Lack of quality? Well, WMKK and WMSA handle approximately 180,000 movements annually. These figures are increasing as a result of the growth in low cost carriers. Granted, we are not as busy as Heathrow but we can hold our own against Riyadh and most of the airports in the Middle East. Our equipment highly automated and is years ahead of what is used in Abu Dhabi Centre. And who trained our controllers - Serco!

If you ever drop by Kuala Lumpur, visit us. You'll be surprised.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I didn't post those comments Ilchew, but just a few comments in response to your comments. UAE Centre handles nearly 400,000 movements annually with 4 sectors and 32 controllers. As a comparison how many sectors and controllers does it take to handle your 180,000 annual movements?

I agree derogatory comments are uncalled for, and is unfair, BUT, the facts are that all the guys who came here from Malaysia, found they were in well beyond their depth, and as such were sacked or resigned. Not their fault, but they said they were expected to do here on their own, what 3 guys would do in KL.

Facts are facts, but as I said the "1 dirham shop" comments were uncalled for, and for that I apologise.

What the guys are trying to get at is that from experience there are certain areas in the world that have been successful recruiting grounds in the past, and for whatever reason Malaysia (and Sri Lanka, and the Phillipines) have not proven to be successful.

[llchew]

AirNoServicesAustralia

I know you did not post those comments. They were posted by burjalrumaithy and GLOC. I believe you made a comment about paying peanuts and getting monkeys in return.

I do not have the stats on flights handled by KL ACC. We have 4 sectors and each sector is manned by an EXE to handle RT and a PLN controller to handle coordination and the electronic flight strips. However, the electronic flights strips were found to be totally unsuitable to maintain situational awareness, paper flight strips were re-introduced. To reduce the workload of the PLN controller who is handling both coordination and strip marking, an assistant is rostered to handle the not-so-user-friendly Electronic Flight Strips.

The figure of 180,000 are traffic movements at KLIA/Subang airport handled by 2 Approach controllers (APP-North and APP-South) with a FLOW controller per shift.

Visit us if you are ever in KL. I'll throw in the beer!

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Yes Ilchew I did make that comment and edited it out soon after, as it was misconstrued to be that I was calling the malaysian guys monkeys which was not what I meant. The saying is common where I come from, and it is used to say that you get what you pay for, and while yes you can pay less and get recruits from certain areas, it has been shown in the past that these recruits have not been succesful for whatever reason. Whether that reason is due to a difficulty with english, or just they are not able to adapt in time to a different ATC culture I don't know.

Having trained one of the guys briefly, he had a big problem here, because, as executive controller on a sector, you are responsible to do all the calls, as well as the strips, as well as coordinate revisions etc. So effectively 1 guy doing the job of 2 1/2 back home, if not 3. Thats not saying that the work here is harder or easier but it is certainly different and handled in a different way.

Anyway I am sure if you are from KL, you can talk to the guys concerned and find out first hand why they didn't make it (while you're at it ask them if they have seen an Australian Air Force Coffee cup belonging to one of the the OJTI's here, that went missing the same day one of the trainees got cut :ok: )

And the comment about who trained the controllers, yes of course most of them were trained by Serco, but some were also trained by local GCAA employed guys, so as to avoid that kind of accusation and did those guys do any better? No they failed as well. The guys were given every opportunity (actually more than usual I would say), and had their training extended and still couldn't make it, so don't go blaming the training.

As far as the beer goes, from what I hear you guys are paid I think it better be me that buys the beer.

[Tweety]

Hey Rat

who might that be now, obviously a manager with initials CR by any chance and most likely Doha perhaps?

As you say this could be a significant peice of info as to where the future is headed.

TTFN

;) ;)

[burjalrumaithy]

Ilchew,
appologies if you were offended but as airno says one of us does what it takes 3 of you guys to do in kl. a number of us reluctantly did ojti for you guys and in alot of cases it was a struggle to maintain our own licences keeping an eye on you. to be honest i'm sure kl is a far more professional and better run centre than here . consider yourself lucky. stay at home.
looks like you will have to buy airno beer , he's spent all his money on beer for GFA pilots trying to appease them.
g'day verci,
how were the sugar puffs?
Tweety, you have a good heart, and i do believe you are not a serco slave. How do i know? you obvously don't know verci.
note the number of serco/gcaa staff that have jumped in to defend him . ZERO!!!
the checking of rosters and process of elimination has started.

[burjalrumaithy]

Rambo is doing a runner now too.? heat is becoming too much. looks like the writing iss the wall, or is it. He does so many u-turns , as you know) he ties himself up in knots. where else could he survive? YEMEN!!!

[Dct no speed]

Wow ........the storie just gets better.... and ......better who wrote the script ?

This is better than Days of our lives. So who is sc :mad: ng who again ?

Come on guys and girls, time for controllers to stand together world wide. Seems you all get shafted no matter where in the world you go.

Surely you guys have the power of working to rule to prove a point, but it is rumoured that the arse creepers always end up spoiling the party.

Just to leave, up and go ( vote with your feet ) is not so easy specially those with families.

Take care of us up in the sky, you are doing a great job !Considering you have your one hand tied behind your back and someone holding you by the b :mad: s

Dct No Speed:)

[burjalrumaithy]

Dct No Speed, descend fl 270 due non RVSM. W is in the wrong field of your fpl. lucifer says you must go down!!!. another few tonnes wasted. Mate you would have to work here to see how whacky it is. it's like a kids movie. you do have to be a little juvenile to endure it. have you seen Monsters Inc. remember the scene ''we've gotta twenty three nineteen''. That's just like a certain ''Code Red '' Debacle that happened here awhile back initiated by our good friend ''VERCI.''
Aaaaawe!! come on verci stop sobbing.
the kicking will end soon . i promise

[GLOC]

I stand by my words my friend...I was at the receiving end of the circus and I am sorry but that's the way it is.

My current star employers are going the same way and well, time will tell...but the word on the street is turbo prop time is now acceptable, why, because we have run out of jet time pilots that want to come here!

:hmm:

[Vercingetorix]

Burj. dear little sweet pea. if memory is correct certain "code red" caused us in the deep south to stop operations. Again, if memory is correct and attributed sources are to be believed (always a question mark here) a certain little marsupial neglected to inform his superiors of the status and his immediate superior took over the situation some 30 minutes later, at which time we were told of the situation and stopped all operations.

Q. What was supposed to happen yesterday?
A. Sweet F---- All.

Love & kisses.

Marvin (yawn yawn, that deep death could be so sweet & silent)

[letMfly]

Maybe slightly off topic - but does Serco run TRM (team building ) courses?

Regards

letMfly

[divingduck]

Vercingetorix...

Sorry old son, you may have superiors...we marsupials don't. We may have supervisors or even seniors, but as the old cowboy said "superior? Sumbitch ain't been born yet"

cheers.

[Dct no speed]

Burj,

Thanks for the descend will check with ops about the wrong FPL, ( Still No speed, confirm...) (no I dont work for Gulf Air ha !ha!)So who is in the role of" No One "and "Randal"? Verci sounds like at least one of them .

My Dear letMfly,

Think you need time of to do TRM, by the sounds of it not a lot of this at Auh.
Is TRM not the course you do when you have been a bit naughty sort of like a fine instead of prison ? I know that is how it gets done elsewhere. Inccident = T.R.M

I Maintain you boys are doing a good job ,considering come on ATC's unite.

Forever requesting

Dct No Speed

:)

[BinDun]

Your code red reply has blown away what vestiges of anonymity you had left.

Time to do the only honourable thing and fall on your sword.

[ATCO1962]

Wow, this is like watching an episode of the Waltons.......NOT.

Lighten up guys. State your case, by all means, but why all the vitriole? Score your points, if you must, but with a little more grace and subtlety.

You must have a more interesting workplace than ours, judging by the verbal fisticuffs.

So what about the original point of the thread? Any further goss about the future of the contract? :confused:

Have a good one, guys!

[burjalrumaithy]

Over 5000 viewers now watching kids movies to see what it's like to work at UAE ACC!!!

[piniped]

Hey Mods,
What happened to the Serco abu dhabi thread?

I have been off for a while and came back to find it gone?

Rumour hat on...Serco Bahrain are going to be offering 2800BD plus accomodation, airfares, gratuity, medical etc.

That has to be worth more than the current UAE GCA contract, which I hear is way more than UAE Serco guys are on.

The question is why does someone in Bahrain get that much more than one in UAE (or DXB for that matter) I would have thought surely that a Serco employee is a Serco employee, so the salary should be similar, just taking into account cost of living etc?

Or have I missed something in commonsense 101?

[PPRuNe Radar]

It will be back ... once I get 5 minutes to remove all the posts (and posters) who seem to think calling someone a pr**k (or variations thereof) is sensible adult ATC debate ...

I ain't in a rush though. A fine bottle of vino is number one in the slot queue,

[burjalrumaithy]

Appologies to all you decent folk who took offence.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED
burj out

[piniped]

PPRadar...

Thanks for the advice, sorry that the thread had drifted into personal attacks...any chance it could be called lively banter??

thought not:{

But for all you Serco guys out there....could someone kindly answer the question about salaries and conditions?

I mean if a ficticious airline ran ops out of 3 airports, lets call them Bahrain, Dubai and Abu Dhabi (purely for an example of course:} )
Ran basically the same types, doing the same job, would it not be reasonable to expect the same or similar renumeration and conditionsin each?
Perhaps a premium to be paid to account for extra cost of housing in each, similar to what they do in Eurocontrol.

Perhaps Verci may like to give us an answer...:ok:

[Lap? Kok? - Chek!]

I mean if a ficticious airline ran ops out of 3 airports, lets call them Bahrain, Dubai and Abu Dhabi (purely for an example of course ) Ran basically the same types, doing the same job, would it not be reasonable to expect the same or similar renumeration and conditionsin each?

Talk to a Cathay pilot about that :)

[divingduck]

Gone awfully quiet out there:E :E :E

A few questions for those affected.

1. Would you stay in UAE if Serco got the boot, or would you go too,

2. What would it take to make you stay, and,

3. Could Serco possible buy back any goodwill by trumping that offer?

Sniping aside please:ok:

[Abu]

Any truth in the rumour that one expat controller was told by the GCAA that they would match the financial package offered by Muscat ATC in a bid to retain his services?? (Provided he left Serco but joined the GCAA, I can only assume....)

If true, surely that sets a precendent. Would you guys work for the GCAA under these circumstances?

What kinda money are the Muscat controllers on?

[burjalrumaithy]

Dearest Abu,
nice try Rambo!!
No truth in the rumour what so ever. we wouldn't dream of changing things from the way they are. accommodation is 5 star, working conditions are great , lots of fatigue breaks, tonnes of money , and management are top guys. if you don't beleive me you can catch me on
......................... '' Al Jazeera TV ''wearing a nice orange boiler suit.

[Dances with Boffins]

Piniped

Serco set up a seperate company for each contract. Thus If you work for Serco Bahrain your wages bear no relation to those of Serco [anywhere else]. Means they can do everything on a local basis, and if one outfit goes belly-up, it doesn't affect any of the rest of the Serco universe. It's animal cunning, but it works.

[Red Dragon]

Dances with Boffins,

Just to put the record straight. Serco do not set up a separate company for each contract. Each contract is bid and won as a separate entity and works to their own budget. Bahrain and all the UAE contracts are part of Serco Middle East, which in turn is part of Serco Group.
The reason for losing any contract would normally be at the rebid and could be for a number of reasons, but as you say it would not affect any other contract.

RD

[Fox3snapshot]

I smell management.....:rolleyes:

[PMS]

Red Dragon et al

:mad: :mad:

The only reason that Serco will lose the contract(s) is that the locals will have finally woken up and realised that you and your company really do not have any morals and couldn't organise a f... in a brothel.

that you have been srewing them for so long and the staff, which is why they are so short staffed on the GCAA contract because the word is out and no one wants to work for you, and your cronies!!

most likely not to work for the GCAA either, even if they pay about 26,000 dhs per month no extras. People aren't stupid and with internet now it is very easy for most to find out about different costs of living in different parts of the Gulf and the UAE is probably close to the most expensive. so it would seem that the GCAA or Serco would need to offer at least 35,000 no extras or 26,000 + villa + school + medical +at least 56 days off (this would be a bare minimum to attract the quality staff you need to run the show.)

So please take your Sercospeak and put it where the sun doesn't shine and take it back to the shareholders.

Yes Fox3 you're right definitely a smell of management. Sorry about that vitriolic response the hormones are still racing.
:ok: :ok: :ok:

rgds

PMS

[Tweety]

C'mon lads gone very quiet on this thread all of a sudden.

Has the Serco manangement suddenly gotcha by the tongue!!:* :*

I see the Sercopeak management have suddenly gone quiet, and yes it is only 1 week until Serco have to issue the "SEE YOU LATER NOTICES"

Lets here more goss..

TTFN

PS Fox3 anymore from you at this time?

:bored: :bored:

[yodellernomore]

PMS, you are spot on, don't apologise!

Serco's treatment of ME staff is outrageous, made all the worse by the contempt in which they manage the staff contracts.

Unless things have changed in the past 5 years, their ME safety management is nothing more than superficial (I'm tempted to say "dangerous"). To anyone contemplating working for this mob of mis-managers, please be aware of the likely consequences should you be unfortunate enough to be involved in a serious incident or worse.

Time for change is overdue. I just hope the dedicated ATCO's and assistants end up better off when the change comes.

[burjalrumaithy]

Hear Hear Yodler!!! Couldn't agree more. As I hinted said before
You might end up communicating with your loved ones through the happy medium of
"Al Jazeera TV drapped in an orange boiler suit"
RED Dragon as pms ,or is it pmt ,said, I think you should fly back to jurassic park with your serco speak along with your fellow dinosaurs. You've done a great disservice to so many expat controllers. serco's reputation is well and truly left in tatters thanks to you relics.
N.B if expat controllers want to come to the middle east . where do they get their info from. Flight international? , serco website?.
NO........
they talk to the serco slaves already working there!!!

[Red Dragon]

burjalrumaithy/PMS

You both seem to be making a wild and may I say childish assumption that I am in management. If you had spent any time reading my post you would have realised that I was merely explaining to Dances with Boffins how Serco structure works at contract and division level. It doesn't take management to know that, or did it sound too much like a grown up talking?
You talk about people finding out what things are like from the coal face before going there. I agree. So if you've been there less than about 10 years why are you complaining? Nothing much has changed with regard to the pay and conditions, hence the much higher turnover of staff compared to other Gulf units.
I know perfectly well what you guys are going through in AD and agree with some of the comments made. But you should know by now that no fairy godmother is going to appear and wave her magic wand. If you feel that strongly about it all, go and work at Doha, Muscat or wherever the grass seems greener. From experience.......it usually isn't.

RD

[Tweety]

Well all here as I said earlier in this thread the writing will be on the wall if and when the GCAA advertise for controllers and guess what here is the latest GCAA advert in Flight 16/9.

;) ;)

Air Traffic Control Officer (ATCO) Posted16 Sep 05Close date16 Oct 05ReferenceATCO-04LocationUnited Arab Emirates

Job DescriptionThe expanding and growth-oriented civil aviation authority in the gulf region is looking for qualified personnel to join its multinational team of professionals and to fill the above positions
Position Responsibilities
Provide Area radar control service, flight information service and alerting service to aircraft operating in appropriately classified airspace in the UAE FIR. Radar sequencing of aircraft, inclusive of speed control for initial spacing of aircraft onto Standard Terminal Arrival Routes Holding and hold clearing at accurate pre-determined rates. Level allocation and application of spacing criteria based on onward routing, between combinations of over flights and departures at common convergence points. Implementing flow management procedures in or beyond Emirates FIR. Conducting On the Job Training (OJT) to ATCOs and ATC trainees if required.
Number of positions: 6
Starting date: Immediately
Work location: United Arab Emirates, Abu-Dhabi
Job Qualifications
Must hold valid Area and Area Radar control License and ATC Medical Certificate Tower approach and approach radar ratings (desirable). Minimum 5 years continuous operational duties a s a certified controller in a multi-sector ACC Equipped with secondary surveillance radar and automated flight data processing. Understanding of RVSM. Must be computer literate and proficient in the use of current mainstream software applications.
Ability to handle stress
Ability to organize and plan work
Ability to work with a team
Ability to communicate effectively in English both verbally and in writing.
Age Limit: 26-40.
Short listed candidate must pass the ATC Assessment of Previous Competence and/or Validation as set by GCAA.
Preference will be given to candidate who can adopt well within U.A.E., possess good communication and people skills and is culturally sensitive.
GCCA offers a very competitive tax free salary and benefits associated with the civil aviation industry. If interested please send the following immediately and indicating joining time required and expected salary and benefits:
1. Detailed CV together with recent passport photograph.
2. Photocopy of valid passport.
3. A copy of licenses.
Closing Date: October 31, 2005

So there you have it, they are on the hunt and could be the final days of Serco.
However, what I ask is they say "they offer a competitive tax free salary with benefits associated witht the civil aviation industry"........... and we all know the benefits are usually c..p and then they go on and say "indicate expected salary and benefits".... so in reality they are really on a fishing expedition, and do not have a salary set or benfits package, and will most likely go low ball. remember if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. I can tell you they have been canvassing the bulk of the current Serco staff to see what they would accept and for most even at 28,000 plus villa the GCAA baulked at this, so BEWARE IF YOU DARE !!!!

So my words to those applying is, you should be looking to at least either 35,000AED per mth all up (ie you pay for everything)plus at least some sort of gratuity of at least 10% per year of service and at least 56 days leave per year and 1 x return airfares for a family once per year!! (bearing in mind a half decent villa will set you back at least 10000AED per mth and schooling per child approx 3,000 AED per mth

OR

26,000per mth plus education paid for each child. plus decent villa accommodation plus at least some sort of gratuity of at least 10% per year of service and at least 56 days leave per year and 1 x return airfares for a family once per year!!

remember Doha is paying about 27,000 plus villa accommodation!! So there is the minimum bencmark.

This is no backwater traffic wise any longer, the Area ATCOs work their butt off here now compared to say 5 years ago so you should get paid

I think this should do it, so now we should finally see some aciton

:sad: :sad:


TTFN

[African Queen]

This just arrived in my "inbox" - thought it appropriate.


Once upon a time, in a desert near you, there lived an orphaned bunny and an orphaned snake. By a surprising coincidence, both were blind from birth.

One day, the bunny was hopping through the desert, and the snake was slithering through the sand, when the bunny tripped over the snake and fell down.

This, of course, knocked the snake about quite a bit. "Oh, my," said the bunny, "I'm terribly sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you. I've been blind since birth, so, I can't see where I'm going. In fact, since I'm also an orphan, I don't even know what I am."


It's quite ok," replied the snake. "Actually, my story is as yours. I
too have been blind since birth, and also never knew my mother. Tell you what, maybe I could slither all over you, and work out that you are so at least you'll have that going for you."

"Oh, that would be wonderful" replied the bunny.

So the snake slithered all over the bunny, and said, "Well, you're
covered with soft fur, you have really long ears, your nose twitches,
and you have a soft cottony tail. I'd say that you must be a bunny
rabbit."

"Oh, thank you, thank you," cried the bunny, in obvious excitement.

The bunny suggested to the snake, "Maybe I could feel you all over with my paw, and help you the same way that you've helped me." So the bunny felt the snake all over, and remarked, "Well, you're smooth and slippery, and you have a forked tongue and no balls. I'd say you must be either a team leader, a supervisor or possibly someone in senior management."

[ferris]

I had to laugh when I read "competetive salary". Competetive with who? Bangladesh? The people running the show here have no idea what is going on in the rest of the world. The "competetive package" is about 25% lower than even their neighbours in the Gulf- and for that you get to work almost every day, in ever-deteriorating conditions, and live under threat from one of the most backward management regimes you are ever likely to experience.

Count me in the legion that have left or are leaving.

[Tweety]

Ferris et al

I guess that means they should be looking for 6 + 1 + however many more may jump ship now the word is out.

TTFN

[lifesaver]

New boy on the block..hello everybody.

Frustrated is one way to decribe how most of us feel..from my perspective I think Serco is in a real position of power when it comes to negotiating new ATS contracts in the UAE.

All we need is a good "Contract Negotiation Team" to get us and Serco what they want...I believe Serco make about 600 000 Dhm per ATCO at Dubai and I should imagine the UAE Centre would be about the same. Therefore Serco can increase the contract price per ATCO or reduce their profit margin to retain valuable staff...

Now from my experience dealing with our management in the UAE the second option wont be considered (and from a business point of view probably understandably)...therefore we need to increase the contract cost price to the customer.

I am hopeful that somewhere within Serco we can gather a team to take on the mighty GCAA and negotiate a fair and equitable agreement that will attract good quality ATCOs and retain the ones they already have...I am a half glass full person.

This country is at a watershed in Aviation and hopefully cool heads will prevail...to be fair to all parties GCAA and Serco are only part of the problem...you all, like me have come here after signing and agreeing to said contract conditions. Now that I'm here I want to be part of the solution and improve all our professional conditions..

Food for thought:

1.Composite salary (say 34000 Dhm per month)..married or single..Serco to provide for the administrative and financial assistance with regard to Visa requirements as well as assistance with new arrivals and a updated list of procedures to follow when you arrive in the UAE.

2.Establish an ATCO Guild that deals with professional matters only. The president of the Guild could represent ATCOs on all professional matters when dealing with the GCAA and Serco Management.. would need a dimensional shift in thinking for all parties..difficult but not impossible.

Serco should well remember that empires dont crumble from within but at the edges...the company and managers should make every effort to ensure the keep these ATS Contracts...I feel private ATS Contracting may be a huge business in a few years..many of the National Service providers are already looking at doing this on a limited scale...if we do it right here..well..however we do need a new team to deal with the GCAA.

Time for a lie-down.

Lifesaver

[burjalrumaithy]

Dear half glass full person,
or is it ''one sandwich short of a picnic'' . Your ideas and suggestions are perfectly valid and make sound business sense.
''IN THE REAL WORLD'' but we're living in johansen's magical land of make believe.
you talk about SERCO being '' IN A POSITION OF REAL POWER''
when it comes to contract negotiations . I don't think So ,when you look at how badly they sold themselves short at the last negotiations because they were sh#t scared that they would lose the contract. (Nats were sniffing around)
you also talk about a good contract negotiation team.
well if RAMBO, the current CM , is part of that team you're onto a loser straight away. he can't even negotiate a TV set for the ATCO's restroom. What makes you think he or his kind could up the fee per controller and get that out of GCAA. Not a hope! The current negotiation team
couldn't negotiate their way out of a paper bag!!!
What are Serco , UAE centre specific, actually good at.
Standing idly by and watching GCAA management use and abuse staff, allowing accommodation and living conditions to deteriorate to near sqaulor, and procuring bargain basement medical care . We all signed up to certain conditions and '' PROMISES''
which have been eroded , whittled away and broken beyond belief. you also talk about an ATCO guild . This would be interpreted as union speak and any moves as such would be pummelled into the ground straight away by lucifer . His ''STALINISTIC WAY '' of maintaining total control. The road of bones leads to UAE centre.
Lifesaver, enjoy your lie down,
because the men in white coats will be coming to take you away soon!!!
burj out

[Tweety]

Gents/ladies

Gone awfully quite out there since the GCAA adds went in last week.

Looks like all those affected have gone to ground. C'mon guys lets hear exactly what is happening there and most importantly HAS SERCO ISSUED THE TERMINATION NOTICES the 22nd has passed!!!

I would think some may also look to be leaving at the stroke of 12!!

Info please

TTFN

[Fox3snapshot]

Where did you get a date of the 22nd? :confused:

[Tweety]

Fox

My little birdie (who has up to now always given me 100% accurate info... may have slipped this time). was told the contract ended on 22 December 2005 and therefore the 3 mth notice period came in at 22 September 2005? If different please correct me.

What is the goss from the centre? Any idea on what the GCAA will offer? Surely, someone in the Serco camp has had something to say?

TTFN

PS You may get a call from a mate of mine re the UAE situation any day now, however all the info I have provided them does not bode well for them to take the plunge!

[bottom rung]

I had a lot of sympathy for the boys and girls working for serco but that last comment has gone over the top. By all means have a pop at your manager but taking the p!ss out of whats happening in the US is in pretty bad taste.
And no I am not a manager, or american, or a journo etc etc.

Previous post to which you refer and which was irrelevant to this thread has now been deleted. :ok: PPRuNe Radar

[African Queen]

I guess I've been told to "fark off" too then :(

Since P-P-Prune R-R-Radar has chosen to weild his big stick again (or is it a metal card holder? I think I will "fark off" to Jet Blast. At last they still have a sense of humor left over there...I think.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Go on then African Queen ... convince me why a (bad taste to some) joke about New Orleans had relevance on this thread ? No mention of SERCO or the Middle East in it, no link to any ATC aspect. So what's the angle you're coming from ??

PS it's already been on Jet Blast ;)

[African Queen]

You obviously didn't even read it !

Bedtime...yawn...nitey nite.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Bottom Rung obviously didn't read it either eh ?? :rolleyes:

For those who want to read it then you will find versions of it

here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171110) and here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171110) .

The only difference is that African Queen used New Orleans and George Bush as his subjects. Still, maybe some folks can see a relevance to this thread I am missing :ok: or maybe it's some 'in joke' amongst sand dwellers.

[African Queen]

PPR......
Is that libel or slander. I can never remember which is which.
Bottom Rung obiously DID read my post since he mentioned New Orleans and Serco management. You obviously did not since I made no mention of George Bush.

[Kattar Kid]

libel is written, slander is verbal, or it is if I remember correctly from college.

Tweety, tell your mate to think twice about returning to the gulf.
The GCC is just that, Cooperation!

He may have to answer some pretty difficult questions about a place west of UAE?