Flight Guides - can you trust them?

[Pierre Argh]

There are many flight guides available on the market, but a quick survey at the airport where I work showed variance between all the major guides. Numerical data, such as frequencies is generally OK (not guaranteed though), but the greatest errors come in the text notations. I feel this often comes from using a single page, and needing to paraphrasing entries from other sources to fit into the space available. The publishers offer a chance to update/ammend the data, but for some the process is v.slow/infrequent?

I don't want to knock "freedom of choice", simply point out that what pilots read may not be as factual as they think? My recommendation is don't rely on a guide unless it comes with a regular and frequent updating service; where possible double check info before departure; but above all, whatever publication you choose, please make sure it's the most up-to-date version available?

[Spiney Norman]

Pierre.
I think you'll find that most, if not all flight guides are very careful to point out that they are 'guides' and not the AIP. Here's an example from my copy UK VFR flight guide...'The U.K. VFR Flight guide is a guide only and it is not intended to be taken as an authoritative document. In the interests of safety and good airmanship the AIP (including supplements, amendments and AIRACs), pre-flight information bulletins, NOTAMS and AICs should be checked before flight as information can, and does change frequently and often with little notice'....
I'm certain that such a statement is by no means unique in the pages of ALL the current flight guides. (I've also got the latest copy of Brian Lockyers Farm Strip guide and that certainly does).
By the way, as an ATCO who used to be a flight guide editor you'd be amazed at the difficulty of obtaining useful and accurate information, even from licenced airfields. I well remember being pressurised to remove a warning on runway gradient by the ops manager of a licenced airfield because he felt it would discourage visitors!!! He didn't get his wish!
Of course, your point regarding pilot awareness is valid and I'm sure some do think everything will be totally accurate even if they haven't used an amendment service and are using a copy published in 2003.

Spiney

[Pierre Argh]

Spiney

Thanks for your comment and general agreement. Glad that some do read the caveats at the front of these GUIDES. All-to-often I am quoted a guide as saying "such and such", and when pointing out that this is out-of-date, told that is our fault then for not publishing accurate information?

One example... I banged on recently on another thread about some GA pilots ignoring PPR requriements... and comments posted in reply, lead me to investigate various guides where I found great diversity ranging from spot-on, to half-truth, to total ommission... and we have pilots planning flights, or using us as an alternate, unaware of this requirement, and unaware that without PPR we may not be able to accept them... we may even be closed!

[big.al]

The problem with flight guides is that they can become out of date before going to print!

Ok, hopefully most of the relevant info. will still be accurate, but PPR should give you the latest.

Having said that, I almost got caught out at a small airfield; I tried calling for PPR several times but got no answer, but since the flight guide says that the radio is not always manned, I assumed that the same goes for the telephone. The airfield was not strictly PPR, so off I go. Several attempts to transmit on the RT brings no reply, so I transmit blind and arrive overhead. Finding the windsock limp and seeing no-one else in the circuit, I broadcast my intentions and join downwind for one runway. Making a complete mess of the approach, I go around and then see another a/c on base for the reciprocal runway!

After landing (and many apologies) I discover that the RT frequency has changed from that published in my flight guide, and the runway in use was the reciprocal to that I tried landing on. One of those 'I learned about flying from that' days... I;ve certainly had better. Just wished I could have gotten through on the telephone, I would have been able to check the runway and RT frequency in use.... so much for PPR.

[IO540]

Personally, if I can't get through on the phone, I don't fly there. A quick phone call is really quick and takes care of most of the problems mentioned.

If you think Pooleys is inaccurate, try the Jepp Bottlang guides. They are atrocious. But they are more or less essential for VFR outside the UK.

[distaff_beancounter]

From many years experience, I have found that it is worthwhile giving ALL small airfields a quick phone call before leaving base, whether they are PPR or not. It saves a lot of time and inconvenience and often produces information that is not in the flight guides or in the NOTAMS. :)

[Chilli Monster]

Why stop at the small ones?

The UK AIP states our airfield is PPR by phone. The flight guides state it's PPR by phone. One of the main reasons for this is you occasionally find B747's parked on the runway doing engine runs, thereby blocking the runway sometimes for an hour or two (these events are, on the whole NOTAM'd).

So - how come in the past week we've had FIVE aircraft turn up inbound with only a couple of miles to run. When asked "Have you booked in?" the normal comment is "No - didn't realise we had to".

Would have been interesting if they'd turned up, low on fuel to discover the runway blocked with a Jumbo wouldn't it :rolleyes:

[DFC]

How many pilots get PPR for their alternate(s)?

Even the IFR flight guides have serious errors.

These days with almost the whole world's AIPs available for free on the www and most of the popular small unlicensed airfields with their own web presence I can't see why any VFR flyer would have the need to spend money on a flight guide.

For IFR, I can still see the merits in a common chart layout in a common language.

Regards,

DFC

[Chilli Monster]

DFC - I've seen flight plans from both private operators and some of the smaller air charter companies where we were the alternate way after our published closing time.

Makes you wonder doesn't it :confused:

[High Wing Drifter]

DFC,
I can't see why any VFR flyer would have the need to spend money on a flight guide.
Regarding the finding of information on the AIP and web in general, I agree with you. I certainly didn't bother renewing my Pooleys this year.

[ShyTorque]

"From many years experience, I have found that it is worthwhile giving ALL small airfields a quick phone call before leaving base, whether they are PPR or not. It saves a lot of time and inconvenience and often produces information that is not in the flight guides or in the NOTAMS."

But......there's hundreds of them! :ooh:

[IO540]

DFC

These days with almost the whole world's AIPs available for free on the www and most of the popular small unlicensed airfields with their own web presence I can't see why any VFR flyer would have the need to spend money on a flight guide.

This time you really show that you don't actually fly a plane.

PLEASE give me the URL to a website (or websites) that has/have "almost the whole world's AIPs" on it.

Many little airfields have a website but the mast majority either don't, or the site has not been maintained for years, emails sent to contacts there are never received, and the airfield probably forgot they even have a website. Recently, I was at a very significant southern UK airfield, and witnessed the "IT chief" there discover that nobody ever checked emails sent to the email contact on their website; he then proceeded to download about 16,000 emails..............

Back to reality, it would be quite easy for the CAA to publish the AIP in a form that's easy to print out into an A5 booklet. I've even suggested this to the person responsible, in person. But it's against their policy, which is to simply publish the data. Even with a duplex laser it would produce a slightly bulky book costing some £30 to get bound and it would put Pooleys etc out of business; I am sure they would complain loudly.

Pooleys produce a useful compact product and that's why people buy it.

[Spiney Norman]

IO540.
The problem with your suggestion of development of the AIP is that of course it doesn't cover unlicenced airfields. It used to, but I suspect they found that the task of keeping the information up to date was too costly for them and it was easier just to leave airfields of that class to the flight guides. As I'm sure you know, grass roots aviation in the U.K. is increasingly moving into unlicenced airfields in the search of reduced cost and independence. Although a version of the AIP in the format you suggest would be very useful I'm afraid you'd be ignoring a very large portion of the flying community.

Spiney.

[Whirlybird]

These days with almost the whole world's AIPs available for free on the www and most of the popular small unlicensed airfields with their own web presence I can't see why any VFR flyer would have the need to spend money on a flight guide.

Bloggs has been flying for a couple of years. He has a share in an aircraft, and is now bored with the £100 bacon butty circuit. He's about to take off for a full day's flying. He's going to XX airfield first. After that he'll plan the next leg, because the weather isn't perfect, there are showers around, and he's not quite certain where he'll go. He may even plan a third landing after that before returning to base; it depends on the weather and his own fatigue levels. He isn't worried about the weather, because on the route he's picked or is thinking of, there are loads of alternates if necessary. He's planning on phoning every airfield he wants to drop into, but he'll do that from the airfield he lands at previously, since most of his day isn't definite as yet. He's checked NOTAMs for the whole possible area of flight, of course. He could maybe do it from each airfield, but some of them are rather small, so that might not be easy.

If he enjoys this day out, he's planning a longer trip, maybe a weekend, or even a week away if he can get the aircraft. Maybe he'll go to Scotland, and just work out each day as he goes, since the weather is pretty unpredictable up there.

Please tell me how he'd do all this without a flight guide? :confused: I mean, one could, but it would be horribly and unnecessarily complicated.

[Kolibear]

Just having a quick flip through my flight guide and it gives me (among other things):-
nationwide Volmet frequencys;
automated telephone TAF numbers,
TAF/METAF/Form215 decodes,
ICAO codes for airfield & aircraft,
instructions on filling in a flight plan,
conversion charts;
Restricted & Danger area contact details, &
Light & ground signals.

to name just a few.

Personally, I can't remember all that information, so I rely on my flight guide to help me.

Also, it means that I have something to put on my Christmas present list.

[DFC]

IO540,

www.eurocontrol.int/ais is a good place to start.

You can even get free US charts before you fly in the US!!!!

it would be quite easy for the CAA to publish the AIP in a form that's easy to print out into an A5 booklet

The whole idea of having the info on the www is that one only prints out what is required for a particular task i.e. aerodrome chart etc. Printing all the info out means that the info will go out of date and thus makes a requirement for amendments which is all done for you on the www version.

---------

Whirlybird,

I think what you are saying is that it is very hard to visit a field one has never heard of and I agree that is probably one use of the flight guide today i.e. Lockyears and Pooleys do list a lot of nice airfields that are good to visit but without the guide we would not know they existed.

As for planning a random trip to Scotland without a flight guide - simple - draw line on an up-to-date chart, avoid dangerous areas, get NOTAMs and PPR + details from the unlicensed destination, check the weather and fly!

----------
Kolibear,

The met help info is available in a free booklet called "GetMet" available from the Met Office.

Each 1:500,000 chart comes with a frequency card that provides all the requied frequencies for the area including DAAIS, DACS, Para zones and Volmet frequencies.

All the ICAO codes are on the chart.

You should make a note of your own aircraft's code(s).

Instructions on filing a flight plan can be obtained online (AIP and other places), they are on a big poster close to every point in an FBU where you can file a plan and if you constantly have to refer to the instructions then print off a copy for yourself.

Light and Ground Signals - despite the fact that we should know them, again stick a reminder card to your knee board if required. After all when in the overhead the last thing you want to do is thumb through a book looking for what flashing green means!

What conversions do you have to do when flying?

--------

The ironic thing about flight guides is that if one uses them for licensed airfields then one must check the AIP anyway to ensure that the info in the guide is correct - quicker, simpler and more efficient to simply use the AIP info. Also if one is going to an unlicensed airfields then it will always be PPR and one has to check the info with the operator.

So, other than a simple list of airfields and telephone numbers, what does the flight guide provide that does not have to be double checked from the original source?

Regards,

DFC

[Evil J]

My personal preference is to always carry an up to date flight guide (I like spiral bound ones) as a back up, but print off the pages from the AIP (off the www) for all the airfields I am inteding to visit (plus divs) if they are available. I also like to regularly print off the frquency card as well to make sure I've got up to date frequency changes.

Was at Kemble recently and there was a potentially dangerous mistake in my flight guide. I was given taxi intructions by the FISO to a holding point, which on my ground map was the opposite side of the runway-quick check with the AIP page and the FISO and the holding point was indeed NOT on the opposite side!! Ok we all know that we don't cross runways unless specifically cleared to do so, but it definitely smacked to me of a future runway incursion.

[RTR]

Using the ? in the title of this thread - I'll tell you who you cannot trust - and that is someone who visits any thread that takes his fancy, where he can pontificate his theories, after reading about it and putting his useless oar in. Then....................completely misses the point!

There is a grave doubt that he is a pilot but likes to join in the conversations just to enjoy the chase. He has little else to do with his life. But he does disappear off the thread when challenged. I am of course talking about DFC.

Just look at his answers to Kolibear. Now Koli, I bet you didn't know any of that did you.

And Whirly, you who took your skills and negotiated the dales dens, dells and highlands and lowlands in the Dawn to Dusk when all you had to do was draw a line on a half mil! Deary me were'nt you frightened? And did you check the weather?

And If you followed his ideas how would you find time to fly!

I worry for all you souls who haven't a clue what you are doing!
;)

[High Wing Drifter]

Kolilbear,

I don't see the difference between thumbing through Pooleys or getting the info you mention over the web. Personally, I prefer printing off the bits I may possibly need at the other end(s) anyway. I admit that I do carry my Pooleys around with me, but I also totally agree with DFC that if the airfield is in the AIP I end up using that info anyway. I have yet to fly to an unlicensed field that isn't on the web, but that's not to say I won't in the future. The Whizz Wheel handles all conversions with speed and precision :)

All,
There is a valid argument for shedding ourselves of the collection of nicks and nacks that we possibley have little need for. I sometimes glanbce at the Transair catalogue in disbelief. With a little upfront effort and organisation, the guides may never be missed. It might be worth a try :cool:

[Whirlybird]

The point I was making - and I thought it was obvious - was that if you've flown to an airfield, or are staying overnight in a B & B, and THEN deciding where to go next, you may not have web access!!! A flight guide will give you an idea where you might go, if the runways are long enough for you or your aircraft, if there are any other difficulties. It's a GUIDE! Then you can phone up and/or check the AIP.

And that random trip to Scotland? Yeah, sure, you could draw a line to Plockton...and how would you know that it's a pretty short field that you might not manage to take off from fully laden on a hot day? Or that most of the airfields up there don't have fuel, so you need to plan your route very carefully? Or that somewhere you want to go has only one runway, and the crosswind is likely to be out of limits on that day? Or even that Barra Airfield is on the beach?!!!!!!

Draw a line and fly it? Phone up and drive the person at the airfield nuts because you didn't know anything about the airfield and you don't have web access at Mrs McKenzie's B & B in the tiny little village where you're staying? Trust to luck that you won't need to divert, or that if you do, you'll cope without knowing what the airfield looks like, the runway length/direction, and all the other details you could look up in the air to cut dopwn on the stress of a diversion?

Not me, thanks. I'd rather buy a copy of Pooleys. :ok:

[Pierre Argh]

Me back again... Don't get me wrong, I do think there is a place for Flight Guides (few cockpits have internet access or room for the full AIP?)... but they must be used with caution, either as an source of initial information that will be followed up as part of the flight planning process.... or as a last ditch measure. Mistakes seem to happen when people trust them totally and exclusively.

[DFC]

Whirlybird,

Are you saying that you would find it very hard to fly to Scotland and in particular to unlicensed airfields if there was no flight guide available from Pooleys/Jeppesen/Lockyears or that you would be in serious trouble if you were in a position of having to divert when flying through an area for which there is no flight guide available in your cockpit?

There are places in the World where Pooleys/ Jeppesen/ Aerad don't publish any information and what is in the AIP is let's say unusual to Western eyes but aircraft frequently operate through those regions safely.

I am not talking about planning or operating without information, I am simply saying that there is little sense in paying for and using second hand information when first hand information (which is the info one is legally required to use) is freely available.

---------

RTR,

And If you followed his ideas how would you find time to fly!

If one flies even 50 flights per year to different places, that is a lot of crosschecking all the details in the flight guide against the AIPs for the various countries. There is also the time spent inserting amendments to the flight guide on a regular basis and the annual checklist to ensure that the guide is up to date.

Take that time which can be extensive when one does a lot of touring and add to it the money spent on flight guides and one has both the time and money to do more flying! :D

Armour Plated flying at that! :p

Regards,

DFC

[RTR]

Completely unimpressive DFC. Not even close to the real world. You are always all over the place and never study the practicalities of flying, which is why so many people doubt that you fly or are a pilot. So many people have asked you to prove it and you back away.

Many of the people you are addressing here I know very well indeed. They are all better able to plan their flights than you and that you even suggest that they listen to you is embarrassing. You could learn more from them than you can from your books.

I just wish you would stop playing your silly games. OR - prove that you can play alongside some of them instead of treating them like they are likely to hurt themselves. That goes for me too btw, and I have been flying for over 40 years.

[Whirlybird]

Are you saying that you would find it very hard to fly to Scotland and in particular to unlicensed airfields if there was no flight guide available from Pooleys/Jeppesen/Lockyears or that you would be in serious trouble if you were in a position of having to divert when flying through an area for which there is no flight guide available in your cockpit?


I don't know where unlicensed airfields come into this. What does licensing or otherwise have to do with anything? :confused: Serious trouble? No, please don't put words in my mouth. I would find it harder, yes. A flight guide gives me lots of useful information which I couldn't otherwise get when in the air. I've explained what that info is, and it seems obvious to me.

I am not talking about planning or operating without information, I am simply saying that there is little sense in paying for and using second hand information when first hand information (which is the info one is legally required to use) is freely available.


It's not freely available in a an aircraft cockpit at short notice, nor is it available if you don't have internet access. Have you actually read a word I've written, DFC? I feel like I'm repeating the obvious ad infinitum. :(

[IO540]

DFC

I've known about that AIP collection website since it was set up, and most of the links are devoid of useful info. Sure, for the UK and a few nearby countries one can get the stuff free. Beyond that it gets sparse. Apart from having a monopoly, that's why Jepp charge so much - they have to pay some poor sod to wade through the national AIPs and collate it all into their database.

As regards alternates, there's very little point in an alternate unless it has an ILS ;)

I've been quite far into Europe (about as far as one can get Avgas without having it shipped in drums in advance) and my view is

VFR:

UK: Pooleys is probably 99% right so may as well keep a copy on the back seat. Print out the AIP page just to make sure. Phone them anyway.

Abroad: Jepp Bottlang guides. They are considerably less than 99% right but they are good enough. Download the AIP page also. Fax them just to make sure. ATC airfields must speak english.

IFR:

UK: print out the whole set of pages for the destination/alternate from ais.org.uk - or Jeppview.

Abroad: Print out all the Jeppview pages for the dest/alt.

And get notams too.

Yes Jeppview is very expensive, but then so is flying.

[ozplane]

Just to lighten the atmosphere a little , there was the case of a well-known elderly display pilot who was invited to display his southern-based biplane at a Barton airshow. On arrival he was "invited" to call Manchester who wanted, not unreasonably, to know why he had bored through their zone without radio contact and by the way which map was he using? If you know the chap in question you won't be surprised to hear that it was a 1936 AA Handbook. How's that for currency?

[IO540]

I know an old aero instructor who says, with a completely straight face, that one never needs to go above 700ft AGL.

He claims to have flown all over Europe at 700ft AGL. Including all the way down the west coast of France, through R31A1, at a much lower level than 700ft...

He complains about his eyesight being not good enough anymore to read the motorway signs without descending below 500ft.

Show him a modern IFR panel and he pretends to puke up :O

It's a different world.

[DFC]

IO540,

The Eurocontrol website EAD section has AIPs and Charts for 45 countries in and around Europe as well as world wide NOTAM coverage.

From such well visited places like Azerbijan, Moldova and the UK to the more common destinations of the EU countries.

I have used it to crosscheck the Jepps against places in Africa, S America and the M. East as well as Australia and the US...........the charts and info is all there.

I think that it is ironic that PPRUNers would argue against use of the WWW or claim that communicating via out of date written info is better! ;)

-----

Whirlybird,

I spoke about unlicensed airfields because licensed ones are included in the AIP. The only possible argument for a guide is the fact that unlicensed airfields are in it. However, my point is that the information is actually available for free at source.

The www is not freely available in the cockpit for most people yet. However, if going to Scotland you could do worse than printing off all the fields you might visit and on top of that make a few phone calls so that you know in advance what fields are not suitable or have been ploughed since Bob Pooley was last on the blower.

I like your comment of nor is it available if you don't have internet access sent over the www! ironic isn't it. ! :)

-----------

RTR,

I just wish you would stop playing your silly games. OR - prove that you can play alongside some of them instead of treating them like they are likely to hurt themselves. That goes for me too btw, and I have been flying for over 40 years.

I like that. This is the Professional Pilots Rumour Network and someone thinks that some chest thumping and peacock posturing is required to justify comments in a PPL forum?

Feel free to continue your personal attacks for as long as you think they give you an alternative to your usual method of relief. :D :) :D

Regards,

DFC

[Whirlybird]

However, if going to Scotland you could do worse than printing off all the fields you might visit and on top of that make a few phone calls so that you know in advance what fields are not suitable or have been ploughed since Bob Pooley was last on the blower.


Bloody hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you know how many airfields there are in Scotland? :eek: :eek: :eek: If you include the Hebrides and Orkneys and Shetlands, loads and loads and loads. And when we went to Scotland for five days, out plan was to go to the Hebrides if the weather was suitable, but if it wasn't, maybe the East coast or the Orkneys. That was as much as we planned, apart from the first day's flight. And we stayed in a B & B near Oban, with no internet access.

So, yes, we COULD have printed off all the airfields, I suppose. But what a hassle. I guess it's down to personal choice. And knowing how much work is involved in a long trip, the cost of a flight guide seems to me like an absolute pittance compared with the alternative.

DFC, I suspect you've never done a trip like the one I mention. If you have, and you like printing out loads of gumph to save a few quid....well, it's your choice. Oh, and I don't see the irony of posting from home to state the obvious - that I don't have internet access in my C150 or in a small B & B - you get a rest from me then, as I can't post on PPRuNe either. ;)

[atb1943]

IO540

If you think Pooleys is inaccurate, try the Jepp Bottlang guides. They are atrocious. But they are more or less essential for VFR outside the UK.

You don't seem to have a very high opinion of Jepp, in another thread the word crap is used to describe a certain software, but then you recommend Bottlang for use abroad, and JeppView, so all is well in the end! I hope you are reporting the atrocities so that they can be corrected. A customer recently reported that a town on a couple of the White Waltham plates (2002 vintage) is shown as Wokingham, whereas Twyford would be more appropriate. Thanks, Pete. I also noticed today that EGNX needs renaming too....

Flight Guides are as good as the sources used, and the REsources available too. For Bottlang, Jepp has extended its charting specifications to allow inclusion of material supplied by airfield operators, rather than waiting for promulgation in the AIP.

It is quite expensive to reissue a Bottlang chart, and items of a lower critical nature will not cause a reissue. They are collected and hopefully included in the monthly special notes that are issued in the revision and also included on the website (aviation resources, online publications). You can even ask to receive them free via email every Friday. So if you do decide to travel lite with only the plates, do please check the special notes prior to departure. The next reissue of the chart will cause them to disappear of course.

As far as I know there are now three flight guides published in the UK, four including Lockyear's, so it seems to be a worthwhile exercise. I wonder where we'd be if the 1980's project of a combined effort between Bob Pooley, Hans Bottlang and a French gentleman had come to fruition. I recall seeing a prototype, I believe it was of Isle de Re, and the Bottlang production manager was at the Paris Air Show in 1981 on a staff recruiting tour. Ah, Bob, there but for fortune...!

E-BAM will be with us next year, that'll be nice, Jeppesen VFR on CD, something to look forward to.

If you happen to be at Biggin Hill this coming weekend it will be a pleasure to meet you in the pilots' tent, sponsored by........

All the best,

atb

[IO540]

atb1943

I am sorry if I have given varying impressions of my opinion of Jepp products :O

Let me summarise:

FliteMap: a hack with loads of quirks but most of it works, people buy it for the data

Jeppview: a worse hack but it works, people definitely buy it for the data

Raster charts: quality could be a lot better but it's more convenient than buying all the equivalent printed charts

Bottlang VFR guides: lots of errors (especially in the phone/fax numbers) but no competition which is why people buy it. I'd never use it within the UK - Pooleys is OK. For European VFR, the alternative is a lot of running around after Pooleys-type products published abroad, in foreign languages...

IMHO, what makes Jepp successful is their wide and uniformly presented data coverage. Without that, the software would be dismissed as a hack and doubtless we would have much nicer IFR flight planning software by now :O (For VFR, Navbox pro is the #1 choice).

What's Jepp VFR on CD?

The best way to improve Bottlang would be to mail/fax every airfield in there (no big deal; you can mailmerge to mail or fax from your database surely :O ) and invite them to go to a private URL and fill in the details, including

a) for international airfields, the DIRECT phone/fax number of an ENGLISH SPEAKING office/person and the fax number to which flight plans can be faxed (automated switchboards with foreign menus are no good)

b) for all other airfields, the contact phone and fax and a list of the languages they can communicate in (a lot of them can do English)

All the time you just lift numbers out of the AIPs, you will get numbers like passenger flight information numbers which are a dead end for a GA pilot.

Then, employ somebody to contact all the airfields that didn't respond because your database had the wrong info :O

[Pierre Argh]

Yesterday PM the pilot of a BE55 (commercial flight) arrived at our airfield, calling on the wrong approach frequency... a frequency that changed almost two years ago. The change was NOTAM'd and correctly promulgated at the time, and is therefore in the AIP (and I have to say most current editions of the common flight guides). Diplomacy prevents me naming and shaming the pilot's company, suffice to say the copy was:

a. Out of date.
b. They had noted checked for ammendments.
c. They had relied solely on that source of information when planning the flight.

The pilot established comms (after some time) by trying every other frequency listed and eventually striking lucky... Not the most professional way to run an airline? Ironically, after establishing two-way comms, the pilot responded to the question "are you familiar with XXXX as published?" in the affirmative...

If you are in the habit of using Flight Guides, please make sure it's up-to-date, and cross-check the information where possible.

[atb1943]

IO540

Back from Blighty, many thanks for all the tips about gathering information for Bottlang. What you recommend is already in place. The questionnaire is very detailed, creates an initial contact, requests detailed information and provides contacts for future changes. That not every aerodrome does so is perhaps evident.

Information is regularly received from subscribers, and all benefit from the inputs. The country-specific Special Notes are revised perhaps two or three times a year, thus pilots buying one-offs may be at a disadvantage. Perhaps there is a need to emphasise the availability of weekly updates either on our website or via email.

FliteStar and JeppView have become powerful complex pieces of software requiring thorough perusal of the user manuals and tutorials. Once you understand and are conversant with all the facilities provided I am confident they will be found to be a boon rather than a hack, whatever that may be. Technical support resources have been trebled, is almost but not quite 24 x 7, Saturdays and Sundays during daytime in Denver (Mountain Standard Time), email pctechsupport@......

Electronic Jeppesen VFR will be the Bottlang on CD for use with FliteStar or on its own. Expected 1st or 2nd quarter 2006.

vbrgds

atb

[IO540]

Except Jepp have just dropped Flitemap :confused:

[Keef]

I'm confused. I've had a Bottlang since the mid-80s, updated it faithfully every month, and carry it always when flying. Being an impulsive sort who sometimes decides to go somewhere else, it's essential. I also like Bottlang because all the plates are in the same format and I know how to read them.

Particularly in France, we often decide for whatever (usually wx) reason that it might be a good idea to set down at a nearby airfield: open Bottlang, find the relevant plate, and give them a call. All the necessary information is to hand.

In all those years, I've never found an error on a Bottlang plate. Maybe I'm lucky, or someone's looking after me.

What I always do beforehand is download the IFR plates for where I'm planning to go, or the nearest airfield with IAPs. If all else fails and none of those plans work, I found that explaining that you don't have the plate but would like to use the ILS (or whatever) results in a radar vectored ILS. I've only done it once, but it was a complete non-event.

[IO540]

The bit where Bottlang (and other data sources) fall down, IME, is stuff like opening times, phone and fax numbers.

This stuff gets lifted out of the national AIPs without any checking, and a lot of it is simply wrong. One example is an airport contact number which is actually the passenger reservation / flight arrival info number for the public side. Or no English speaking people on the number, despite it being an international airport. I've spent ages on a mobile phone in some hotel, chasing around duff numbers one after another. I'd say that as an English-only speaker, 75% of Bottlang phone/fax numbers are duff if flying to random locations in Europe.

The airport diagrams are usually OK, but only because they rarely change. Not because anybody checks them for accuracy after lifting them out of the AIP.

Approach plates are on a 28 day update cycle and do get checked anyway, for obvious reasons.