Air cadet instructors

[mgdaviso]

Would be interested in the our regular brethrens opinions on the RAF VR(T) Officers and ATC NCO's (That's adults not cadet NCO's) you have met in your time in the service.

You know - that group who invade your mess for 6 weeks over summer and come round trying to blag all manner of things - for the good of the 'next generation' so to speak.

Just looking for objective opinions of your experiences, with a healthy dose of banter (we can take it)

[cparker]

mgdaviso
check your PM.s

[Green Meat]

Sounds like a phishing trip to me...

[Postman Plod]

Would suggest its not so much a phishing trip, as *possibly* a way to get some objective input to a number of threads on Air Cadet Central - this one for example:

http://www.aircadetcentral.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1986&start=30

While we have a couple of friendly regular RAF bods on ACC, I think its possibly a useful exercise for us VRT or ATC staff to find out exactly what you think of us! Is your opinion of us generally positive? Have some bad eggs spoiled it for us? Do you go out of your way to avoid / help us? Is there anything we could do better / differently?

And heres a question - would any of you guys consider helping us out on a more regular basis, or consider going into ATC / VRT uniform on banging out of the regulars? One thing that has become apparent is the distinct lack of service experience amongst the uniformed staff in recent years.

From previous threads, I think you guys have a very positive opinion of the ATC as a whole - I guess mgdaviso is looking for an opinion on the staff rather than the organisation. Might also be a chance for us staff to clear up a few misunderstandings or myths!

[mgdaviso]

Postman plod - bingo (and that's not a fuel state call)

I'm a regular on ACC, just thought I might try and elicit some opinions from our friends over here on pprune.

[Stax]

May not come as a shock to many but I was a "Spacey" many moons ago (306 (Runcorn) Sqn). I like the idea of the cadets, I enjoyed it, it got me interested in the RAF when there wasn't much in the way of career satisfaction for what would be called a "Chav" nowadays. However when I was in the cadets the majority of the AI's were ex RAF or Army and had a good background for what they were doing. Nowadays I speak to many ATC/VR WO's and Adult Sgts who seem to have no regular service whatsoever or if they do it is minimal. For example an ATC Flt Lt (VR) who managed 6 years as an airman in the catering trade, banged out, became a civil servant and is now OC of a local ATC Sqn. Said chap tried to wear his mess kit to a Sqn all ranks dining in night and got vexed when it was pointed out he was attending as a civilian member of the Sqn not a VR officer. I sometimes think that these people couldn't cut it in the regulars so get their kicks from ordering around kids. (Dives into slit trench)

[Spotting Bad Guys]

I was a service instructor with the ATC for around seven years, and yes it is true that there are plenty of 'wannabees', and a quantity of poor-quality individuals who should never be allowed to supervise young adults.

However, there is also a very large percentage of highly motivated (they have to be, they are volunteers) hgh-quality people, who may be successful in civvie street already and give up much of their own time to teach, take kids flying/gliding, AT expeds, and provide a taste what service ethos and life.

I think we tend to see extremes at times - particularly Easter/Summer camp activity. On the whole, they're a good bunch though.


SBG

P.S. I once saw an RAFVR(T) Flt Lt in a grow bag in LOO Officers' Mess, wearing a flying suit with a very odd brevet...wandered over for a chat and a closer look only to find out that the wings were "Model Aircraft Pilot".......:yuk:

[mgdaviso]

Stax - you get all sorts.....

Just to 're-educate' you slightly.:8

We're not "VR", we're VR(T)

We're not ATC Officers, we are RAF VR(T) Officers, ain't no such thing as an ATC Officer.

From www.rafweb.org (http://www.rafweb.org/Reserve_1.htm)
When the Air Defence Cadet Corps was taken over by the Air Ministry and renamed the Air Training Corps in 1941, a new class of the RAFVR was formed to man run this organisation, the RAF Volunteer Reserve (Training Branch).

We now (as of Sept 03) have adult NCO's (Sgt, FS and WO) these guys n gals have "ATC" on their shoulder tapes, which distinguish them as ATC personnel.

Sounds like they guy was a bit of a t1t, please don't tar us all with the same brush. On their behalf I don't apologise.

As for me? Unfit for service medically, had been a spacey, and decided to pursue civvi career, stayed with the ATC and eventually signed on the dotted line as a VR(T) Officer. Didn't fancy TA and hadn't heard of RAuxF back then (otherwise I may have requested to join them).

I take great pleasure in providing a support structure and training for 60+ local kids, who (mostly) want to pursue a career in the armed forces or do something positive with their teenage years.

I have a WO to order them around!:ok:

P.S. I once saw an RAFVR(T) Flt Lt in a grow bag in LOO Officers\' Mess, wearing a flying suit with a very odd brevet...wandered over for a chat and a closer look only to find out that the wings were "Model Aircraft Pilot".......
oh dear god - once more I apologise....

[Metman]

Stax - would be interested to know how long ago it was that you were a cadet?

You are right, there are a number of people who are in our organisation for the percieved status. I'm in it because I enjoy watching others experience something they would never have done otherwise, and learn and grow from it. What would they have done otherwise? I take pride in my association with the RAF, but I'm not going to milk it! I think the majority of uniformed staff are in it for the right reasons, but as in all walks of life, there are others who really shouldn't leave the house!

My background was as cadet for 3 years at a small DF in Scotland. Over-riding career ambition was to be a weatherman (dont ask) or go into the RAF. The Met. Office got there first but was lucky to end up on an F3 base for 3 years (with various detachments, incl MPA). On being posted to Bracknell, I joined the local squadron as a CI, then went into uniform. I ran a neighbouring squadron for a couple of years, and am currently a squadron officer.

[MostlyHarmless]

ain't no such thing as an ATC Officer.

Really? I thought I'd met a few very nice ATC officers in my time...
...Oh, well - guess this means they *were* a figment of my imagination :(

[Spotting Bad Guys]

As you say, though - you get all types. Most of my RAFVR(T) and ATC compatriots in the time I was an SI were pretty high-quality individuals, and would not have been out of the place in the regular commissioned or SNCO cadres.

However, to cite another example of something I saw that I didn't like - there was a tendancy in some quarters to forget that the ATC is a supporting organisation to the RAF and the accompanying attitude of "why doesn't RAF (insert name here) do more for us?".
The difference was made in that particular Wing by getting more of the key ATC staff to local RAF units and to show them the what the ops tempo was doing to us - they then understood the challenges faced by the ACLOs....

We also used to put together an annual leadership camp for 200 cadets and 50 staff - out in the field, wearing green kit (for those that could get it) - navigating, pine pole exercises, river crossings etc plus shooting, confidence course and so on.

The great thing for me (as the Training Officer) was seeing the staff get stuck in on the exercises, learn and improve just as much as the cadets over the course of the week. There could be something in this team building stuff, you know!

Cheers

SBG

[Tanewha]

I was a Spacey for 6 years and enjoyed just about every minute of it (right up to the point that I was asked to leave, but that's another story). My Sqn (424 Southampton) was blessed with an excellent bunch of VR(T) officers and CI's who went out of their way to get the cadets doing as wide a variety of things as possible.
However, since joining the RAF I have helped out at a local Sqn and acted as liason on Summer Camps. In these duties I have seen some "officers" who really concern me and are a shocking representation of the RAF. These people send entirely the wrong message about the RAF to the very people that we might eventually recruit. Some of it is not their fault. The training given to VR(T) officers at Cranditz is, in my opinion, too brief to really produce the ideal. It is therefore down to the individual. As in all walks of life there are some bad eggs but it is down to the good ones and the full time RAF officers to help educate them.
SPG,
I hope that you had a word with said Flt Lt and pointed out the error of his ways. RAFVR(T) officers are very often the only contact Joe Public has with the Military and we should do our best to make sure that a good impression is being given.

[incubus]

there was a tendancy in some quarters to forget that the ATC is a supporting organisation to the RAF and the accompanying attitude of "why doesn't RAF (insert name here) do more for us?".
Actually, it is the other way round. the ATC is supported by the RAF but there is no requirement for the ATC to give anything back to the parent service (inventory excepted.)
However, the Air Cadets are seen as a worthwhile investment in much the same way that university bursaries are seen as a worthwhile investment in that both systems help to provide worthy candidates for the royal Airforce, even if that is not their primary goal.

To demand that the RAF give more support, though, is arrogant. Granted, it would be nice but everybody has resource limitations and that needs to be taken into consideration. Besides, the RAF could be far more obstructive if they chose to be, so it is best not to rock the boat :)

[Spotting Bad Guys]

Yes, I did - in a polite fashion as I was at the time a Fg Off Nav Stude and he was, after all a Flt Lt and much older than I - but he felt it was his right to wear what he liked. Obviously not the case, but I tried.

I had to smile a short time later when he was unceremoniously dispatched from the bar by the CI......

Definitely the exception, rather than the rule though.

Incubus - I am aware that the RAF supports the ATC in the way you point out but the fact is that the cadet organisations would not exist without the parent Service. By 'supporting' I mean primarily recruitment, which has always been a sensitive subject. However, I believe that the situation was formalised a couple of years back and the ATC is now officially a source of recruits for the RAF.

Cheers

SBG

[PileUp Officer]

Hmm..
Back in day when I was an Air Cadet the adult staff on my squadron didn’t paint a particularly good impression of ATC staff or officers.

The OC and other officers seemed to have some huge politics thing going and there was a large amount of favouritism for certain cadets. There were inappropriate relationships going on between a few cadets and adult staff.

My WO was a complete idiot. He was a wannabe RAF Warrant Officer who couldn’t hack it so he instead ordered round lots of kids, intimidating them almost to the point of bullying in some cases.
He was a postman and there was a running joke with the older cadets that he couldn’t get into the Royal Air Force so he joined the Royal Mail.
Once he took a friend and I into his office and tried to threaten us and make admit to something which happened on a night out and was completely unconnected with the ATC.

My Dad always said to me that to be an ATC officer (or VR(T) or whatever the technical name is) you had to be really fat! :)

During IOT I got the impression that there was a lot of bad feeling towards the ATC officers as they “do a one week course in marching and rank insignias and get the same commission as us”

Anyway, just a few thoughts for you. There are a lot of cool ATC officers out there who do a lot of good and really help young people but, in my opinion, there are also a lot who are simply power hungry and want to boss kids around and boast that they are ‘”in the Air Force”.

[tmmorris]

Spare a thought for VR(T) officers in the Combined Cadet Force (if you haven't come across us, we're the school-based units, usually independent schools). The officers are almost all teachers; very few have any regular experience; a significant minority are press-ganged into serving and have no real interest in it; and a few units (including mine) have compulsory service for cadets. Despite the fact that our cadets come from nice well-off backgrounds and are generally polite enough, it's an uphill struggle if they don't want to be there, and sometimes this comes across in sqn visits &c.

On the plus side, we are well resourced, generally, have plenty of space and facilities, and as the officers are trained teachers, they are good at teaching things to cadets - a skill almost entirely overlooked in the 1-week ATC IOT courses. And, depending on your type of school, most of the teachers fit in well in the mess - indeed our own Common Room works in a very similar way.

Tim

[soddim]

I take my retired hat off to all RAF VR(T) officers for the work they do encouraging and supervising young people, some of whom might want to join the RAF. Nobody in this World is perfect and it is too easy to pick at some of them but, in general, they do a very worthwhile job and are of great benefit to our community.

I spent some of my serving time assisting them on an ATC Squadron and I know how dedicated most of them are. I also spent some time teaching ATC cadets to glide during week-ends whilst I was a staff officer and I flew lots of cadets on summer camp air experience. I could in those days have recruited more well-motivated pilots into the RAF than PMC ever did and they would have stayed. We used to solo more pilots than RAF Flying Training every year.

Serving personnel should support and encourage the RAF VR(T) officers - they do a great job.

[Tiger_mate]

There has been a lot of honest comments here all of which I can relate to having had several years experience working with the ATC from a service perspective.

There are many, many VRT staff who work for the Cadets with untold dedication. There are sadly some who are an absolute disgrace to the uniform that they are privileged to wear. Happily the later are very much the minority, although they are also the ones that are noticed by the public and servicemen alike.

I have witnessed on several occasions servicemen, and often cpls and sacs, having a quiet word. In sympathy with the numbers in para 2, most VRT listen and learn, the odd arrogant ba"%%^d throws a teddy and complains.

The important side to this debate regardless of where your loyalties lie, is that the Cadets are not (usually) the ones seen can kicking on street corners and mugging mobile phones off teenagers and old ladies. They are usually highly motivated, and less there be any doubt about that, have a go at the staff cadet exam which ammounts to defence studies worthy of an IOT or Staff Course. If a bit of time and effort keeps these kids off the streets for a few hours a week, creates teamwork and responsibility (Duke of Edinburghs award) then we should all support them.

As ACLO at a purple learning centre, I enjoy unreserved (and costly £££$$$) support from all members of my station. We host the Cadets on 12 annual camps and day visits for the remainder of the year. I was pleasantly surprised when after having a "knob in power" on the unit that caused some localised ill feeling, the station rose above that and have enabled the cadets to have a sucessfull and enjoyable time at what for many is their first summer camp.

I felt quite privileged as operating crew on an aircraft that had on board a Cadet who at 14 years of age had never flown before. Not least of which was because as a 14 year old on board a Whirlwind helicopter at RAF Valley a long time ago, that said Cadet was me!! 28 years of service later.........

I rest my case:

[Stax]

First off, apologies to the dedicated, sensible RAF (VR)/ATC Officers and WO/SNCO's. I am a fan of the ATC, we do still get some excellent ex spacey's joining up. However I have genuinely met members of the ATC SNCO cadre in the mess during easter/summer camp periods and many of them are so obviously failed wanabee's with delusions of granduer that it makes you wonder what the kids in their Sqn are being taught about the RAF. However if you think we are being nasty check out the comments on ACF AI's on the ARRSE website, ATC guys, you get off lightly here!

Metman

1974 to 1977, there are still two of us in the RAF that jioned straight from ATC.

[Neeps]

Unfortunatly I'm not a VR(T), but I am a CI and I thoroughly enjoy it. Some people have said that the VR(T)s sometimes create a bad impression;

My Dad always said to me that to be an ATC officer (or VR(T) or whatever the technical name is) you had to be really fat!

but it's not always the case. I can say that when I first joined as an instructor I was expecting a younger generation of kids interested in the RAF, flying, shooting, adventure training, etc. That simply wasn't so either! I'm a CI because I want to encourage younger people to take an interest in an active lifestyle and look at possibly joining the forces. We may get a lot of banter off of regular guys, but we're not all bad. ;)

[PileUp Officer]

There has been a lot of honest comments here all of which I can relate to having had several years experience working with the ATC from a service perspective. There are many, many VRT staff who work for the Cadets with untold dedication. There are sadly some who are an absolute disgrace to the uniform that they are privileged to wear. Happily the later are very much the minority, although they are also the ones that are noticed by the public and servicemen alike. I have witnessed on several occasions servicemen, and often cpls and sacs, having a quiet word. In sympathy with the numbers in para 2, most VRT listen and learn, the odd arrogant ba"%%^d throws a teddy and complains. The important side to this debate regardless of where your loyalties lie, is that the Cadets are not (usually) the ones seen can kicking on street corners and mugging mobile phones off teenagers and old ladies. They are usually highly motivated, and less there be any doubt about that, have a go at the staff cadet exam which ammounts to defence studies worthy of an IOT or Staff Course. If a bit of time and effort keeps these kids off the streets for a few hours a week, creates teamwork and responsibility (Duke of Edinburghs award) then we should all support them. As ACLO at a purple learning centre, I enjoy unreserved (and costly £££$$$) support from all members of my station. We host the Cadets on 12 annual camps and day visits for the remainder of the year. I was pleasantly surprised when after having a "knob in power" on the unit that caused some localised ill feeling, the station rose above that and have enabled the cadets to have a sucessfull and enjoyable time at what for many is their first summer camp. I felt quite privileged as operating crew on an aircraft that had on board a Cadet who at 14 years of age had never flown before. Not least of which was because as a 14 year old on board a Whirlwind helicopter at RAF Valley a long time ago, that said Cadet was me!! 28 years of service later......... I rest my case:

I agree completely, I wasn't trying to have a go at ATC personnel at all. On the whole they do a great job.



The whole fat comment was meant in a light-hearted way. It was something my Father used to say and I think was more aimed at annoying me (he tends to rip the pi$$ out of anything i'm involved in) than being an accurate judgement.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Horrah for ATC staff and the likes. But for them there would be even more 'hoodies' wandering the streets, frightening old people. These dedicated individuals spend their own free time attempting to instill a degree of discipline and pride into todays 'yoof'. Some of them may be less than ideal, but I think that we would be in a much worse state without them.

How many of those contributing to this forum are ex-spacey?

[wub]

I served as a regular for ten years and then another fifteen as a VR(T) officer including a spell as a gliding instructor), ending up as a squadron commander before retiring. During that time I met many many dedicated and capable ATC staff, civilian and military. I also met quite a few @rses who were clearly in it for themselves.

The most embarassing moments were always at camp when the ATC staff had to mix with regulars; many just couldn't cut it and came across as total idiots.

I recall being on a staff visit to Laarbruch during the run-up to GW1. This was a rare occasion when staff spent a week, without cadets, learning how a front-line unit operated. Laarbruch was almost maxed-out, yet still took the time to host us. On one day we were being given a tour of a HAS, the bod assigned to look after us was giving us a really thorough briefing and was about to let us see a JP 233 when on of our party said. "No, it's okay, the mess is just about to serve lunch" and promptly swanned-off. The guy's chin hit the floor and I hoped the ground would swallow me.

On another trip to Germany (Gutersloh, I believe), The ATC camp commandant was asked to leave the mess by the PMC because he was swigging his beer from a bottle.

A final memory is of the Sqn Ldr camp commandant at a camp in Akrotiri who had spent his three-day prep time sightseeing, with the result that when the cadets and staff arrived after, for some, a 24-hour journey, there were no arrangements for accommodation, or transport. We were left at the terminal while he drove off "to get some keys". Luckily we were rescued by some aircrew from 100 Sqn who helped no end while this idiot toured the base looking for 'keys'.

On the positive side, people who regularly give up two evenings a week and most weekends should be acknowledged as dedicated and hard working. Those who do make faux pas are probably being let down by their squadron commanders, who should be briefing them as to how to conduct themselves on a military establishment.

I for one will be eternally grateful for the help and support of the regular RAF when we descended on their unit for annual camp. I always found that a professional approach was returned with pleasure and an obvious satisfaction at being able to help.

[ProfessionalStudent]

I'm an ex-cadet (1312 (Southend) Sqn) and am deeply indebted to the ATC for what it did for me during my formative years. The vast majority of ATC staff are dedicated, smart and as keen as mustard (indeed, many regulars could do with a dose of their enthusiasm).

There are a few, however, who come across as just spotters, bullies, wannabees and/or bags o'sh!te. I actually then feel more agrieved that they represent an organisation I feel quite proud to have been associated with. These are, however, the minority and the regulars have plenty of the same too.

I heartily concur with those posters who believe that they help keep would-be thugs off the streets and thus make our grannies safer. So next time you find yourself trapped at the bar by a sycophantic bore (please don't take offence, most are perfectly pleasant), just smile politely and think how much safer the streets are... and ask what you and/or your section could do to help.

[Hummingfrog]

As an AEF pilot for the last 16 yrs, I have nothing but admiration for the dedicated RAF(VRT) officers and their civilian instructors who take the time and effort to support and run the ATC system.

In any organisation you will get the odd balls but most of the staff I have met have been very good (and some eccentric - eh padre!!). The cadets we fly at summer camps are enthusiastic and very keen not only to fly but also to take part in the night exercises and other activities set up by the staff.

I usually ask the cadets, while flying, what has been the best part of the camp so far? At first, I expected them to say it was the AEF trip but while some said this others were keen on the ground activities. One girl last week perhaps summed up the ethos of the ATC when she said the best part was making new friends:ok:

Keep up the good work.

HF

[Bob Viking]

I can claim to have been a spacey myself (for 5 years - 1069 Wimborne Squadron) and definitely credit it with getting me where I am now. The VR(T)'s were always great value when I was there.
I regularly show groups of cadets round the squadron and I'm glad to see they still show the same level of enthusiasm that I did all those years ago. I even waved at a load of cadets in a tristar the other day as I waited my turn up on tow line 6.
The only bad experience I can think of was a female CO that was with a bunch of cadets on a summer camp last year.
One of the young female cadets asked if girls were allowed to be pilots. Before my comrade could answer she jumped in with "of course not"!!!
It took a couple of further minutes of convincing her and the cadets that it is, of course, permitted. She wouldn't give up though and parted with a "well it's not encouraged though"!!!
So much for womens lib!!
BV:hmm:

[Devil's Aardvark 8]

quote:
'On another trip to Germany (Gutersloh, I believe), The ATC camp commandant was asked to leave the mess by the PMC because he was swigging his beer from a bottle. '


Maybe a bit of an extreme example but it is probably true to say that a high proportion of VR(T) Officers (and now NCO's) are abit out of touch with the regular armed forces(understandably so). I can think of 2 reasons for this, first is the amount of training and guidance given to the volunteers when they first join regarding service knowledge, customs and ethos. Secondly it is incumbent on our VR(T) colleagues to keep themselves up to date, knowledgable and proud of the organisations we all represent so that they can pass this on to the Cadets and instill the same ethos.

We should bear it in mind that the Cadet organisiations are also useful recruiting grounds for the future of the Armed Forces and not just glorified youth clubs as some of those posting seem to be suggesting.

[richlear]

Having seen the story from both sides of the fence (RAF SNCO aircrew & now VR(T) officer) I can honestly say that the vast majority of the ATC staff I know are doing a great job. They give up a lot of time, put a lot of effort and enthusiasm into what they are doing...and most importantly of all, the cadets appreciate it and get something out of it.

Would you rather have your kids involved in a worthwhile activity from which they gain some discipline, experience and skills or hanging around on the streets?

Of course there are exceptions, there are obnoxious people in all walks of life, the service included.

[Devil's Aardvark 8]

Richlear.

As with all walks of life there are good eggs and bad eggs.

Good show to those with enthusiasm and drive.

Bad show to those few who give the Cadet organisations ( and he rest of us) a bad name.

To come back to the original question on this thread. Quite right, it isn't a dig or a fish, more a question of perception. The Cadet organisations will always be popular because of the ethos and sense of belonging instilled in their members. Those who abuse their positions are easily recognisable to the cadets and the wider community. All of us are responsible for instilling ethos, pride and drive in the Cadet oraganisations whenever we are exposed to them.

Excuse the spool chook Eye will trie and soort it owt four neckst tyme. Much stroke sympathy needed. Nne owld truckie nav!!

[Postman Plod]

Stax said:However if you think we are being nasty check out the comments on ACF AI's on the ARRSE website, ATC guys, you get off lightly here!

yep, that is one of the points that I think may have prompted the question on here!

Hopefully the general attitudes in the Corps have changed a lot since you wre a cadet (You'll hate me for this, but you started cadets before I was born... :}) - certainly even since I was a cadet 15 years ago, bullying in the sense you saw back then has vanished completely - well certainly where I've seen.

PileUp Officer said:
My Dad always said to me that to be an ATC officer (or VR(T) or whatever the technical name is) you had to be really fat!

I'm not fat - I'm big boned!:E

[ProcATCO]

Interesting Thread this!!!!!!!

I am ex TA and regular NCO Aircrew, and after some time getting established after leaving the service, I entered the ATC as an Adult Instructor, and then became an Adult WO. This was with 221 Sqn in Great Yarmouth. Excellent staff, good kids (some rough as rats, but generally as good as gold), a real pleasure.

Then we moved to Wales, and I went to a sqn here - no names, no pack drill - which was a mess. The kids were completely lacking in discipline to the extent that they called all the uniformed staff by their first names AT ALL TIMES!! I started to rectify this only to be told by the CO not to, as this gave the kids an inferiority complex. I let him know my feelings on this as an ex-regular and was told to desist.

I applied for a transfer, only to be told by the Wing that this was not to be, so I resigned!

My point being that some ATC staff including senior staff seem to want to be as obstructive to the ethos of giving the kids the discipline and skills that they need in the great wide world. I would go back into ATC like a shot, and I wish the ATC all the best in the world. To see rough kids blossom into excellent young people ready for the world is one of the best feelings that I have ever had.

To all ATC staff, keep doing the good work, keep enjoying it and all power to you all!!

:ok: :D

[Postman Plod]

ProcATCO - crying shame that! The ATC is crying out for adult instructors - you may (or may not!) have noticed the recent high profile recruitment campaign (cheesy radio adverts, national, regional, and local press, etc) and when I hear about such petty arguements forcing a dedicated instructor to resign, it makes my blood boil! I have seen wing staff close ranks to the detriment of the Corps before however, and it makes absolutely no sense - who are we in this for after all?! :mad:

I agree completely with what you have said though. In some cases, the ATC at all levels just shoots itself in the foot, or creates massive problems for itself. One example (which I understand is in the process of being resolved) is in CRB clearance for new and existing staff, which in some cases has taken up to 10 months (by which time, any sane person would have given up and gone to the scouts, whos CRB clearance is covered by the local authority and takes weeks rather than months). Other examples might be ongoing complete Adventure Training ban in some regions awaiting a mystical ACP that may take a year to appear, or the implementation of legaslation-enforced regulations on how over-18 year old cadets are viewed by the Corps, and H&S concerns coming out of our ears (the risk assessment for a drill session still makes me chuckle).

One recent change that you may have noticed however is a change to the staff SNCO rank structure, with the introduction of Adult Sergeants and Flight Sergeants. This has hopefully given a bit of career progression for Adult SNCOs, and also means you are no longer seeing brand new 21 year old Adult Warrant Officers waltzing about the Sgts Mess. Hopefully a bit less politically sensitive, although you may still have issues there I guess.

[SirToppamHat]

brand new 21 year old Adult Warrant Officers waltzing about the Sgts Mess.

I thought the different rank slides would have left no-one in any doubt that these were ATC WOs rather than regulars? Certainly when I was in, ATC WOs were allowed to wear the same as the regulars eventually, but only after a significant time in uniform or if previous regular service entitled? Before that they wore something that looked like a large Queen's Crown if memory serves. Has that changed?

Anyway, back to the thread.

Did lots of years as a cadet and CI Gliding Instructor and have a great deal of respect for anyone who is prepared to give the amount of time and effort these people do; I am not just talking about the evenings and weekends, but also the summer and easter camps and I know that there was rarely a weekend went by when we weren't out hill walking in Wales or the Lakes - not bad when you are based in Manchester.

Of course you get the occasional odd ball - but don't we have that in the Service? I believe that when it is done right, the discipline provided by the ATC (and I dare say Army Cadets and Sea Cadets) fills a much needed gap in the life experience of these kids. The return for their effort is the number of things they get to do in response. It concerns me that there are elements of the VR(T) who seem to be against the Service ethos, as ProcATCO suggests. In his shoes, I think I would have gone further than wing level before resigning.

I know that when I was a cadet, we considered the CCF(RAF) far more relaxed than the ATC - I get the impression from visitors to my unit that this may now be changing to the other way round?

STH

[Very Risky Trainer]

ProcATCO

Your post has prompted me to "come out" from a long lurk and express my outrage at your ATC experiences :mad:

As a serving VRT I must say that your wing was totally out of line and you should have kicked this upstairs to Region. Knowing the Regional Commandant for Wales and West he would surely have "kicked a$$":ooh:

The ATC cannot afford to lose someone with your background and I can only say that in most of the ATC sqns I have visited across the UK, a friendly but definite RAF style discipline is enforced. One or two wayward COs (one I know with previous regular RAF commisioned experience!) use first names to cadets all the time, but this is actively discouraged by all the Wing COs I have met.

A big THANK YOU to all you busy regulars who, despite all the cr@p you are facing right now give the cadets such sterling support. :ok:

[Circuit Basher]

As 'coming out' seems to be the thing in this thread, I'll declare myself as an ex-cadet who went through the ranks to be a CWO for 3 yrs and have now completed 19 yrs of commissioned service in the RAFVR(T). I have a small amount of regular service (Eng Branch), but was recoursed / chopped from IOT in 1982. I suppose that in the steely eyes of Mil Aircrew, I'm a wannabe blunty. I would refute that view, as I was never given the opportunity to join the steely eyed band (failed GD(P) medical in 1973 and went on to do an undergraduate apprenticeship with a little known British Manufacturer of military aircraft near Blackpool!). I have also subsequently self-funded a PPL.

I view our role in the ACO as being part 'salesmen' to introduce cdts to what military life is about, part teacher and part careers adviser. Due to declining miltary recruitment, probably about 95% of the cdts we deal with will not finish up with a military career. We can, however, keep the little varmints off the streets at a crucial stage of their life - I always tell new recruits in our Sqn that I don't really mind what they do as a career so long as I can see them around town in future years and be proud to say that I had a part in their development. They are future voters, so any experience they have of military matters will enable them to make more informed choices.

On camps (for which there are woefully few cadet / staff places), the parent service for the greater part do an excellent job of hosting us - on some stations, the ACLO is outstanding and is able to be very hands on - whenever I've been Camp Comm, I've always tried to make sure that those who excel receive due feedback to their line management. I'm experienced enough to recognise those that have a busy day job which prevents them from getting too involved - there are ACLOs who make the effort, just as there are ACO staff / cdts who don't appreciate what's been done behind the scenes to facilitate their presence on camp.

I can only apologise for those that are an embarassment to our organisation - I try to respect the fact that we are guests on the station and use the time as far as possible to update myself with the current issues in the service from the view of those that are currently serving.

Thank you to all who support the ACO (either directly or indirectly) whether as camp hosts, day visits, parent stations - it is recognised that without your support the ACO would not exist.

[Crashed&Burned]

As an ex RAF and ex VR(T) officer I believe that both the RAF and ATC contain roughly the same proportion of good guys (90%) and w*ankers (10%). Each branch of the service needs the other and should recognise this and try to keep the relationship positive.

[soddim]

Take the point about w*ankers but I believe they are at opposite ends of the rank structure in the ATC and RAF.

I always thought life in the RAF was a bit like life in a monkey tree - when you looked down you saw monkeys but when you looked up you saw as*holes.

[airborne_artist]

My daughter (14 yo) has just completed her first year in the ATC, and she's got a huge amount out of it. So much so that I am now chairman of the civilian committee. The squadron is very fortunate as it's just over the Thames from Benson, and three regular NCOs from Benson help run the training, and the NCA dad of a cadet does some leadership training with the cadet NCOs.

My observation is that having regular contact with regulars is very good for the cadets, but even more so for the officers! I can imagine that an ATC unit miles from any regular unit/contact could become introspective and possibly rather anal about trivial matters.

[Max Contingency]

Please note that this thread asked for my opinion and I venture it in the knowledge that I appear to be out of step with the other contributors :uhoh:

Whilst the ATC appears to offer excellent opportunities for the cadets and has been a recruiting and grooming ground for many years, I question its value to the RAF today. With a uniformed manning target of just 41,800 I believe that there must be enough high calibre applicants out there to feed that figure without the ATC. After all, 41,800 makes us smaller than Marks and Spencers and they don't have a uniformed youth organization (or do they?).

Those of us left in of the remaining posts are all doing far more work and dets than we ever were before. The only way that we can now operate is by cutting all activity not CRITICAL to our task. I am afraid that I see hosting and flying ATC as falling in that bracket.

Please don't feel victimised as I also think that we should disband the Red Arrows, the QCS and the Falcons.

Light blue touch paper and retire......

[Crashed&Burned]

A bit of an accountant's approach that (the greatest insult of all...)

Taken to its final end point, why have an air force at all? Let's become the latest state in the good ole USA and let them look after us. They have tons of aircraft already and we could save a packet....

Did I hear a distant explosion......????:rolleyes:

[Max Contingency]

It may have been generated by money but it is now about people. People who work 60 hours a week, every week.

How do we ask them to work 62 hours next week because we are hosting an ATC summer camp?

[airborne_artist]

After all, 41,800 makes us smaller than Marks and Spencers and they don't have a uniformed youth organization (or do they?).

They do - they are called the Saturday girls and boys. They also now work evenings and Sundays. Just go to your local Waitrose/Teso etc. and buy a bottle of hooch on a Sat/Sun and watch the lass on the till have to get permisson from her supervisor.

All the major retailers would be knackered if the <18s all walked out!

[Maple 01]

I don't know the current stats but a few years ago the CIOs used to say that 40% of all airmen and 60% of all Officers were ex cadets - add that to the increase in 'air mindedness' and good will generated amongst those cadets that chose not to make the armed forces a career and the positive effect on the 'yuff' make them a bit of a bargain IMO. Worth an odd hour here or there?

[aluminium persuader]

If the ATC were disbanded just think how many more bored, disillusioned teenagers there would be out there just dying to make your life hell. When you get a grumpy, spotty herbert in at 13 and kick them out a smart, self-confident individual 5 yrs later it makes it all worthwhile. If they join the RAF, so much the better; they'll have a head start.

An amount of VR(T) officers do give others a very bad press; I've been embarassed to wear the same uniform on occaision. IMHO, respect is due from VR(T) to regulars of all ranks because they are professionals (most of the time!). Just as importantly, respect is due from the regulars to VR(T) because they're volunteers. Would you do a full day's work, go home, pull on a blue suit & go out to sort out 30+ of someone elses kids?

I too was a VR(T) officer, eventually a Flt Lt squadron commander before I "retired" because bringing up two kids of my own and working shifts left no time for the squadron. I'm a wee bit (nicely)surprised at how much support is shown here by regulars. I'm an ATCO on a military field, tower + radar, PPL, IMC + multi-engine and have still been ridiculed as "plastic" by regular admin-secs! Grr! Yes, more support from regulars would REALLY be appreciated, but so would more from ACO staff officers. Giving a Fg Off a sqn with NO other uniformed staff when he lived 200 miles away and was only in the vicinity of the sqn Mon-Fri wasn't friendly!

Would I do it again? Not sure. PC'ness has taken a huge chunk out of the fun and added far to0 much paperwork. Ask me again when my son hits 13.

Would I want my kids to join? Damn right I would!
Did I mean ATC or RAF? Yes!
:ok:

[Circuit Basher]

Max Contingency - I see your point and know where you're coming from (I think!). Not sure we'll ever agree, as some of the benefits of the Corps are not directly visible to the workers of the RAF. Some are, however, such as proven (but I don't have figures immediately available) pass rate during basic training, a lower fallout rate during trade training and improved retention rate amongst those with a cadet force background cf DE. This is attributed to the fact that someone with a cadet background generally has a better 'big picture' of the RAF due to attendance at a few camps, has had the chance to experience flying (which was not always the case) and has made a more informed career choice - life in a blue suit is not quite such a culture shock.

The RAF Recruiters tell me that it does their case no harm to have cadets in RAF uniform in most communities around the UK, making up for the attrition of RAF stations - it keeps the RAF in the public view. As I said in an earlier posting, the 34,000 or so cadets (of which maybe 20% are 'churned' each year) also contribute to a presence in the community of people who have a basic appreciation of the RAF and what it does - they also have basic military skills and are less likely to flap when discussing things such as private weapons ownership, etc. They also have an 'air mindedness' and frequently some exposure to adventure training - they are more likely to get up and do something, rather than slump in front of the TV.

As I said, Max - not a dig at your comments and I recognise your valid views. I'm a professional engineer who has spent a long time managing a workforce - I am used to knowing when we can squeeze a bit more out and when the eyes say 'Full'!! :) :D

[Crashed&Burned]

I know it can be irritating for regular RAF bods to see VR(T) uniformed staff making mistakes in the messes but they do these things because no one has shown them what the 'right' thing is.

A week at Cranditz is for most the only formal exposure they get to the parent service and there is a limit to what is taught in that time. The next exposure is on summer camp where the mistakes arise.

I would also suggest that because of their greater exposure to the wider world, VR(T) officers can sometimes highlight how daft some of the things the regular forces do are. A bit of slack would go a long way.

[moggiee]

Whilst I agree that there are enough candidates of sufficient quality out there, the ATC helps to attract, encourage and hone those candidates to make their entry into the RAF more likely and smoother.

As an ex- ATC cadet myself, I found that the information and experience gained in the Corps helped me avery great deal during the OASC selection process and IOT at Cranwell.

It is surely a relatively cheap recruitiment and training process that can be paid for by one years Red Arrows travelling expenses (and in my view is much more effective).

[mgdaviso]

I've added a side-thread to this one....

RAF VR(T) Officers in your mess (http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187466)

[cazatou]

Some 20 Years ago,at Brussels Airport,I had the privilige of meeting someone who had been an ATC Cadet with me in the early 1960's. He had minimal "academic" qualifications; but by sheer perseverence had obtained a flying licence.

PS If anyone is interested we had both been on 1107 (Leyton) Sqn ATC.

PPS 1107 Sqn RAF was a Marine Craft Unit.

Perhaps this is something we should resurrect as something that could provde a useful ASR backup as well as a Military involvement in the local area.