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Harris eng
18th Oct 2001, 23:31
TWO Rastafarians were ordered off an aircraft after a stewardess
mistook pictures of their spiritual leader, the Emperor Haile
Selassie, for Osama bin Laden.

The pilot of the JMC flight from Gatwick to Malaga called police after
the stewardess told him of her concerns about the images on a T-shirt
and badges.

snip

The Guvnor
18th Oct 2001, 23:38
Only JMC could confuse Rastas with the Taleban! :D :D :D

SkyCruiser
19th Oct 2001, 00:35
Guv, shut up you ********.
Haven't you got anything better to do with your time, why don't you go and start up an airline or something. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ 18 October 2001: Message edited by: SkyCruiser ]

TimeisShort
19th Oct 2001, 03:29
SkyCruiser.
Are you aware that your Trivial display of 'Anger' is a symptom of something deeper.
Unhappy Childhood or Marriage maybe??
Or maybe you were a 'Class-Room Bully'.

Whatever it is, Abrupt and Tactless Postings such as yours are disgraceful, especially when it's directed at a Person who I consider to be one of the most Dynamic Members of this Forum.

You claim to be a 'First Officer' . That means your in a Proffession where a 'Cool Head' and 'Mature-Attitude' are indispensable. Get my Point ??

Your 'Pathetic Jibe' displays nothing more than a pronounced lack of intellect.

Rocket Polish
19th Oct 2001, 03:46
Well spoken 'TimeisShort'.

Majorbyte
19th Oct 2001, 04:15
Er...rather pompous of you 'TimeisShort', suggesting Skycruiser had an "unhappy childhood or marriage", what an odd thing to say. :confused:

HugMonster
19th Oct 2001, 04:27
Well, clearly something in his life is not very happy, for such a gross and insulting overreaction... :( Nothing wrong with a little speculation...

DownIn3Green
19th Oct 2001, 04:30
So what about these Rastas?

Rollingthunder
19th Oct 2001, 04:47
Well reports now indicate the F/A can't be too sure about the gentlemen in question actually being Rastas, what with the dense cloud of smoke hovering around them.

TimeisShort
19th Oct 2001, 07:07
Majorbyte.
In reply to your Posting.

Suffering Fools is not one of my strong-points and observing such Tactless, Offensive Gibberish directed at anyone un-deserving, deserves rebuke.

It's obvious on this Forum that there are a number of insolent individuals that have perfected the art of insulting one particular Well-Respected Member.

I'll be the first person to point them out while making the appropriate comments.

Remember that in life, The Respect you get is the Respect you give..

411A
19th Oct 2001, 07:46
Looks like SkyCruiser has had a severe sense of humor failure....

A and C
19th Oct 2001, 11:10
Now lets stop the bun fight and will some one please tell me a little more about the rastas that got kicked off the JMC flight.

newswatcher
19th Oct 2001, 11:35
From the DT(17/10). There was a photo, which has not transferred to the archive, but this did look like HE.

"TWO Rastafarians were ordered off an aircraft after a stewardess mistook pictures of their spiritual leader, the Emperor Haile Selassie, for Osama bin Laden.

The pilot of the JMC flight from Gatwick to Malaga called police after the stewardess told him of her concerns about the images on a T-shirt and badges.

Trevor Henderson, 22, a sound engineer, and his friend Damien Busby, 27, a music teacher, both from Hounslow, Middlesex, were on their way for a week's holiday in Spain. Mr Henderson said they had not "shown up the ignorance" of the stewardess because she had approached them in an "arrogant manner".

He said: "I was wearing a T-shirt which actually had the name of Haile Selassie on it as well as the words of one of his speeches on world peace. My friend had two badges of Haile Selassie. We had passed through all the security checks. We were in our seats waiting for take-off when the stewardess demanded, 'What is that on your badges?'

"If she had asked us in a different way, perhaps explaining about additional security, we would have been happy to put her out of her ignorance. We like the chance to talk about our faith. But she just walked off and the next thing we knew we were being asked to leave by police. The officers were very sympathetic and admitted it was a misunderstanding."

But Dan Humphreys, an airline spokesman, said it was not a question of whether the stewardess had confused the former Ethiopian emperor with bin Laden, or whether she even knew the difference.

He said: "They were asked questions which directly related to the security of the aircraft and declined to answer them. I am not going to speculate on what knowledge the stewardess may or may not have had about Emperor Haile Selassie.

But this situation could have easily have been resolved with the co-operation of the two passengers." A spokesman for Sussex Police said no further action will be taken. The airline has refused to refund the pair, but it is still prepared to fly them to their destination.

The men are considering legal action. Haile Selassie, Ethiopia's last emperor, was deposed in a coup in 1974 and is believed to have been murdered. He is revered by Rastafarians, some of whom refuse to accept that he is dead, even though he would now be 109."

HugMonster
19th Oct 2001, 13:15
I don't know much about Rastas in the UK, but in the Caribbean I found them to be the hardest-working, most peaceful, friendly and honest people around.

How you can mistake Haile Selassie for OBL is also beyond me. Sounds like this hostie has had a bit too much of a sheltered life.

Tom the Tenor
19th Oct 2001, 13:21
Security of the aircraft my eye - all the stupid cr*p that is now being brought up in the name of security and what does it prove? Nothing!

[ 19 October 2001: Message edited by: Tom the Tenor ]

SkyCruiser
19th Oct 2001, 14:29
Oh dear TimeIsShort, To reply with comments like I have had an unhappy childhood or I was a classroom bully, I feel you need help or maybe you should just wind your neck in.
The reason for my outburst at the Guv is a simple one. Since I have started reading prune we have had to put up with the Guv going on about his airline, trying to get money out of people for flight training and thousands of pointless posts. As you only signed on to prune this year I guess you have been lucky in missing most of his piontless posts so I won't hold that against you.
And whats more, this web site is about freespeech and that is mine, OK.
Please feel free to reply to this but I won't be replying to any more of your posts.

[ 19 October 2001: Message edited by: SkyCruiser ]

PETERJ
19th Oct 2001, 14:40
Laugh ? I could have cried. You couldn't make it up ,could you......? "Keep flying folks, show them what we're made of, there's nothing to worry about except ignorant neurotic employees who can seriously damage your holiday plans".

Guv
......hang in by the way ..don't know what your battles are but I for one appreciate your always considered contributions

Sid's Stars
19th Oct 2001, 15:07
Hey Skycruiser didnt u see Danny's warning to people like u? U'r wasting bandwidth having a go at the Guv and it just makes u look neanderthal anyway.

bottom of this page (http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=016127&p=3)

So wheres he been trying to get money out of people for training? The only thread I've read has been the Malgus one over on Wannabes and there hes been doing a damn good job to try n stop the wannabes from being ripped off.

Unless you're Malgus perhaps?!?!?!

Anyway as for the Rastamans .... rasklaat!! Pas de dutchie pon de left hand side, maan!

PAXboy
19th Oct 2001, 15:19
Let me think about this for a moment ... I plan to hijack the a/c and kill everyone on board. So let me wear a picture of the world's most wanted man on my t-shirt.

I always knew there was a reason that I didn't use JMC :rolleyes:

Next Generation PSR
19th Oct 2001, 15:43
Now before I get shot down in flames and another bun fight begins, I'm as my log on name suggests a Purser, with another charter airline.

It would be interesting to know if possible how old and how much flying experience and on what routes this particular JMC Purser has had. It also begs the question as to how culturally aware JMC trainers make their crews on a their customer care courses?

I suspect by the way it appears - in print here on the board - that she did not have enough, and sounds like what she had was a severe case of jitters/paranoia which has become prevalent throughout the industry in the past few weeks.

I'm also very suprised that the Captain thought it necessary to offload these obviously innocent customers on the grounds of the clothing they were wearing and was equally culturally unaware. Although none of us have seen the designs of the 'offending' t-shirts it would not suprise me either if they didn't have the customary Rastafarian colouring of red, gold and green - shall we also say they probably had dreadlocks - I know I wasn't there, but probably. (by the way I'm caucasian - so no racial axe to grind).

If they were wearing a t-shirt with obsenities or indecent graphics and refused to remove them as they were causing offence to other passengers, then that is a different matter. (sexual swearwords or sexually graphic)

I wonder if any of the passengers on the said JMC flight had actually complained?

I know for a fact at the moment that some inexperienced crew members are having difficulties weighing up what is and what isn't a potential risk or threat to the aircraft and it's passengers, but nevertheless if these feelings are passed onto the Purser/Captain both should have enough experience, maturity and knowledge to weigh up the problem/options sensibly and re-assure or back up the cabin crew members concerned, or should not be in that position of responsibility in the first place.

Some questions I would weigh up and gather information on:

What route are we flying today? - LGW-AGP-LGW, holiday charter, tickets probably bought through a tour operator - probably low risk.

Is it really likely that two passengers/potential terrorists would board an aircraft wearing an image of their 'supposed' leader? - probably not, a bit of a give away really and would as in this unfortunate case draw attention to themselves.

Has another passenger/passengers complained about the t-shirt graphics? - No - so no problem.

Has the customers behaviour caused offence to either myself, my passengers or crew?

It seems to me that this JMC Purser did not think rationally at all about the facts that are present here on the board, and is unfortunately now victim of this error of judgement along with JMC and shall now have to suffer the possible legal and media consequences.

I operate frequently on flights to Egypt and Israel and I consider myself culturally aware along with the crew members I do my best to train. I would be suprised if JMC do not operate similar routes, and therefore their crews, particularly Pursers should be culturally aware.

But no matter what the problem one should always sit back for a few minutes and gather/assess the facts, and possible consequences of a decision before making a decision. And sadly in this case that doesn't seem to have happened.

enginefailure
19th Oct 2001, 16:49
one question for the stewardess:

Why yu fe galang so ?
Choble nuh nice, so gwaan go maas ......

Ace MCcoy
19th Oct 2001, 17:25
Another episode here in Scandinavia last week. This time a Premiair (daughter of Airtours) Captain offloaded three Arab (sorry, dunno the country theýīre from) men. They had purchased their vacation the day before, and boarded the flight to, I think Las Palmas.
Their documents were checked and found fine before boarding, but other pax. felt very uncomfortable with them on board, and when they were slow sitting down, they were offloaded by Captain.
Thatīs how I remember the story from the newspaper, and the way I understood it, Premiair might have some explaining to do, even though the three were reimbursed their ticket costs.

RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo
19th Oct 2001, 18:14
well they both have beards and arnt white so i guess these guys are lucky not to have had a 2000lb bomb waiting for them when they got back to houndslow.

JMC ought to be more conciliatory as UK anti discrimination laws almost certainly make what they have done illegal and i for one expect a test case on this issue before to long. what next T shirt profiling?

Haile Selassie was a man of peace, if you get the time try to read the speach he gave before the UN in 1968 Haile Selasi (http://previewnet.com/reggae/rasjohn/HIM/[email protected]) the trendy cats amongst you already know part of the speach, bob marley wrote the song "war" around it. there is also a picture of him so you can judge the similarity for yourselves - he's the one on the right :p


Jah rastafari ;)

[ 19 October 2001: Message edited by: RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo ]

HugMonster
19th Oct 2001, 20:23
Irie! :)

Wino
19th Oct 2001, 20:33
While I am not a defender of JMC's stupid management in any way shape or form, has anyone considered the possibility that this Aircrafts crew were set up by this pair looking to get rich in a lawsuit.

We do not know how the pax behaved, and it doesn't matter how they are dressed if they don't respond to certain security questions correctly they WILL be offloaded.

The rest of it could be a red herring! Maybe they were looking to get ejected.

Cheers
Wino

The Guvnor
19th Oct 2001, 21:06
Wino, there's a world of difference between your average Rastafarian and a Muslim!

Believe me, any genuine Rastafarian would find it impossible to pass for a Muslim.

RogerTangoFoxtrotIndigo
19th Oct 2001, 22:07
WINO

yes its possible they were looking for lawsuit in order to afford a decent holiday - rastas on the costa, the world really has gone mad! but they still have to be thrown of the plane before they can call their brief and maybe the bait was swallowed and JMC have been reeled in.

however imagine this: there you are sitting in J wearing a royal marines tie pin, down comes purser sees you with a pointy piece of military insignia and demands that you take the offensive (rather than offending) item off........ if you know any servicemen you will understand it rather depends on how the request is framed

OptionTwo
19th Oct 2001, 22:59
This wasn't entirely the pursers decision to have the two gents offloaded. Captain was informed that they weren't co-operating with questions asked of them. Whether this was down to the attitude of purser, i don't know.
Captains decision was to inform the police.

O2

Bwana
19th Oct 2001, 23:47
Regardless of the confusion, JMC should have refunded the the two gentlemen. If I was forcibly offloaded and the company refused to refund my fare I would also sue.

whatshouldiuse
20th Oct 2001, 02:20
Amazing;

If the NJT (New Jersey Transit) and MTA NY (Metro Transit Authority ...commuter trains) took time to eject every person from the Middle East, there would be few if any riders.

Imagine how these poor sods felt 2 day after the WTC getting on a train with all the other passengers glaring at them??

Reality is life. You can either overreact, live in fear or deal with it. It's far easier for me to deal with it than people of
Middle Eastern origin who are just trying to go about their way of life.


Very sad...

slim_slag
20th Oct 2001, 02:36
Its not easy being a Rasta nowadays.

You follow your religion, smoke some top quality green, go flying in your own front garden, and risk being nicked.

You then turn up for you first legal "flight" of the year, and end up getting nicked.

Such irony.

Paterbrat
20th Oct 2001, 11:30
Without reference to the Rasta's ejected, or to the inexperience or otherwise of the hostess, or to the manner in which she asked, it simply cannot have escaped any passenger flying after the 11th that extraordinary actions on board a number of aircraft resulted in the deaths of over 6,000 people.
In light of this it would behove ANY passenger to fully co-operate with ANY member of the crew whether or not they felt it insulted them or slighted them if they wish to avoid just such an incident. These people did not and the result was predictable. Any member of the public traveling in these times would do well to simply co-operate and realise that these are not normal times.

With reference to the Guv. He is not the most well liked on the site and I personaly do not always agree with what he says however some of the rather childish knee jerk re-actions to whatever he says and in total disregard to the relative merits of what he has said are rather puerile and worthy of the same contempt that they are expressing for him.

Norman Stanley Fletcher
20th Oct 2001, 15:22
Also with reference to the Guv - maybe the issue is one of over-contribution. Whose opinion do you value more - the one who talks a good game or the one who is actually playing in it? I prefer to listen to an experienced Operations Director or Chief Pilot who contributes occasionally yet has so much genuine knowledge of the industry. There again, I could choose to listen to someone sat 8 hours a day in front of a computer playing 'Fantasay Chief Pilot' and be convinced I was listening to "one of the most Dynamic Members of this Forum". I know whose opinion I put most store by.

Avman
21st Oct 2001, 13:23
I think that it's fantasy CEO he plays at :D . The Guv is not my cup of tea, and he knows it, but some of his postings do have merit. I took his post in this thread with the humour that was intended. I often wondered if JMC's livery itself wasn't a threat to airline security :p .

Eff Oh
22nd Oct 2001, 14:08
OK, OK guys! The purser on the said flight made a mistake! The Captain would have asked her if she had any doubts. If she said yes, then the pax would have been off loaded. Now OBVIOUSLY this was the incorrect decision, but I hardly think this original thread was ment for JMC bashing! I appreciate that some people have greavences against the company, as every company has, but it is interesting to see some of the posts on here!
As usual the thread turned rapidly into a slagging match. I work for JMC and yes it looks like they made a mistake @ LGW, however the story is never a simple as its made out to be. Please dont let this descend into the usual mud slinging!? "Just the facts m'am." :D
As to the person who posted that he "knew there was a reason why he didnt fly JMC"....Prey tell who do you fly with? If it is a charter I would LOVE to know what they do that we don't!

Eff Oh

HugMonster
22nd Oct 2001, 14:29
Eff Oh, the simple facts in this case are that the CSD in this incident does not know the difference between a Muslim and a Rastafarian, and does not recognise the difference between Haile Selassie and Osama Bin Laden.

Gaza
22nd Oct 2001, 14:57
"Is it coz I is Black?"

If Aircrew, Security Staff and the likes are seen to be questioning non-whites more than white's then the lawsuits will start flying. These gentlemen may not have helped themselves by being non-cooperative in response to questions but probably having suffered throughout their life from racism it easy to understand why they are cynical.

We have to realise that Bin Laden's followers are unlikely to wander down to their local branch of Thomas Cook and buy a two week package to Costa del Crime. I'd me more worried about sharing an aircraft with some of the ex-pat residents of that locale than a couple of chilled out Rasta's!

wobble-head
22nd Oct 2001, 15:39
HugMonster Your statement "recognise the differnce between a Muslim and a Rastafarian" assumes that all Rastafarians are Afro-Carribean and all Muslims are Middle Eastern. Islam is practiced throughout the world and its followers are from many diverse ethnic backgrounds.

I am sure the purser did not go into the flight deck and say "I've got 2 muslims in the back" or "2 Rastas" she probably informed the skipper that she had 2 gentlemen who would not answer her questions.

Now that is a minefield; did she ask them questions based purely on their attire or did something else bring them to her attention. Does she have the right to do so bearing in mind recent tragic events? Was she guilty of racial stereotypeing and if so how can we avoid that in the future, whilst at the same time recognising the fact that there does exist a small group of well funded and highly motivated terrorists whose origins are in the middle east.

Had these two gentlemen said "look love we are Rastafarians and this is a picture of our spiritual leader Haile Selaisse" then I am sure He/She would have been apologetic and the matter would have been resolved. Easy for me to say being white but this was an oppotunity to educate. In a multi-cultural society there has to be some give and take.

Had they been offended by the manner in which they were questioned then they could easily have filed a complaint either with the airline or a statutory body.

Out of interest I went to school in south London and lived for a few years in Brixton and would never have recognised the fella!

:confused: :confused:

BTW this flight is actually a scheduled service and a colleague and I were discussing a few days previously how it would be more easily targeted than a charter flight.

DCDriver
22nd Oct 2001, 20:32
Well this is what happens when the cabin is in the charge of kids barely out of their teens with a year's flying experience and the rest of the cabin crew joined last spring and leave next week.
Bring back the ex-cally CSC's who were so shamefully forced out by FCL and their dreadful culture!
:mad: :mad: :mad:

HugMonster
22nd Oct 2001, 20:59
No, wobblehead (good name, BTW! ;)) it does not assume anything of the sort. I have lived in the Caribbean long enough to have seen and met many Rastafarians from all ethnic groups. I have met Afro-Caribbean Rastas, British Rastas, American Rastas, even a Swedish Rasta. I also have friends of many ethnic origins who are Muslims - Arabs, Indonesians, Brits, etc. etc.

I can tell the difference between a religion and an ethnic origin. Let's hope that more people learn it. It's a shame the hostie in this case couldn't tell any difference at all.

All speculation about who said what is just that - speculation, and therefore worthless.

fightson
23rd Oct 2001, 10:37
I guess there must be some truth MAN to " the dread mus'e have fourty leg inna him head" :rolleyes:

[ 23 October 2001: Message edited by: fightson ]

max_cont
23rd Oct 2001, 12:48
It doesn't matter whether the CSD knew what the facial differences were between various religious leaders. The pax were uncooperative when questioned and got thrown off. Good.

The company I work for does some longhaul for JMC with one of our A/C and JMC cabin crew. They may not have as many years flying as some of the other charter outfits, but they are professional,hard working and conscientious. I'll fly with them any day...but please, take off those green apron thingies ;) ;)

As an aside, I don't know or care about religion. More people get killed each year in the name of some god that it makes me wonder why they don't just ban it.

cheers all

Nightcap
23rd Oct 2001, 20:23
Everybody Everybody Look You Guys DONT understand anything bout the situation.

Just Say Sorry :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :cool: :cool: :cool: :D
;)