MD82 crash in Venezuela

[Rollingthunder]

Sorry to report this. 152 people onboard. No further details yet.

[GrahamK]

Just seen the Breaking News on Sky News. Seems to be down in the border area with Colombia.
Not a good few days for aviation :(
Have to hope there are survivors

[swh]

Any further info on a MD80 emergency reporting problems with both engines, 155 pob at 07:30 UTC, registration HK-4374 enroute MPTO to TFFF ?

Hoping for some good news ...

[Woomera]

My Spanish isn't flash but..........

"........el piloto reporto emergencia en sus dos turbinas posiblemente se siniestro..."

Double engine failure??????

Woomera

[Capt. Inop]

the pilot I report emergency in its two turbines possibly sinister

(babelfish translation)

[London legend]

This from the Associated Press:

URGENT
Passenger plane crashes in Venezuela with 152 passengers
aboard, official says

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) - A passenger plane crashed in
remote western Venezuela with 152 passengers aboard early
Tuesday, an aviation official said. It was unclear whether
anyone survived.
The West Caribbean Airways plane was headed from Panama to
Martinique when its pilot reported engine trouble to the
Caracas airport, said Francisco Paz, president of the
National Aviation Institute. Airport authorities lost radio
contact with the plane later in the area of Machiques, in
the western state of Zulia, he said.


161147 aug 05GMT

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

"Siniestro". Are you guys sure this doesn't just mean left, ie. the left engine ?

[SeniorDispatcher]

Info on the airline...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Caribbean_Airways

[GearDown&Locked]

"........el piloto reporto emergencia en sus dos turbinas posiblemente se siniestro..."

Direct translation:
....The pilot has reported an emergency on both his engines probably has crashed...

[PPRuNeUser0211]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4156224.stm

BBC reporting it too, sounds like its in a pretty remote part of the world, if it's come down its probably not so good.

Thoughts with all those involved, hoping for the best

[N380UA]

Low chances of survival going down in remote western Venezuela. Jungle vegetation will further hamper rescue efforts. Lets hope…

[cringe]

If the registration is correct (HK-4374X), this is the aircraft in question:

http://myaviation.net/search/photo_search.php?id=00417078

Some reports mention that engines failed one after another. According to the Venezuelan interior minister:

"El piloto pidió permiso para entrar en el espacio aéreo venezolano y aterrizar en el aeropuerto de Maracaibo porque tenía fallas en un motor", relató el ministro.
"Luego volvió a comunicarse para reportar que también estaba fallando el segundo motor. A partir de ahí el avión fue perdiendo altura a razón de 7.000 pies por minuto y se estrelló",

[G-SP0T]

some one on CNN saying it lost one engine, turned back then lost the other.
Also an expert predicting a decent rate of 7000ft/min...dick

[GearDown&Locked]

"El piloto pidió permiso para entrar en el espacio aéreo venezolano y aterrizar en el aeropuerto de Maracaibo porque tenía fallas en un motor", relató el ministro. "Luego volvió a comunicarse para reportar que también estaba fallando el segundo motor. A partir de ahí el avión fue perdiendo altura a razón de 7.000 pies por minuto y se estrelló",

"The pilot asked permission to enter Venezuelan air space and land at Maracaibo airport due to a failure in one of its engines, reported the minister. Soon after this, he reported that the second engine was failing too. From this point on, the airplane began to loose altitude at 7.000 f/m and crashed"

Another sad day for aviation. Too many accidents in very few days.

[JamesT73J]

Descending at nearly 35m/s? That seems rather fast. I hope - if it is an engine failure - that people have survived.

[alexmcfire]

Swedish media claim 160 onboard and total loss, the Mad-dog was 19-years old according http://www.aviation-safety.net

[flyguykorea]

Don't know much about this airline, but it would appear as if they were recently in the news for maintenance issues:

"02 JUL 2005 West Caribbean Airways temporarily suspends operations
The Colombian airline West Caribbean Airways temporarily suspended its operations after Colombian authorities grounded the MD-80 fleet of the airline reportedly because of non-compliance with an airworthiness directive. The AD ordered the operator to install fire retarding insulation material. (Diario la Republica)"

Courtesy of Aviation Safety Network.

[747FOCAL]

Double engine failure on an MD-80 is not good. The wings are not that efficient to begin with and if the CG was forward without engine power you are going to need a place to land in a hurry.

RIP :(

[joris]

Both Helios and this company are very young...started operations in 1998 i believe...

[Danny]

Before this thread gets out of hand like the some of the other incident threads I'd like to ask that posters refrain from posting the usual "condolences", "rest in peace" etc messages. This is a discussion forum and we can all take it as fact that we are sorry for the families of the pax and crew. It's bad enough keeping this forum for debate by those in the business without having to fend off the sometimes overwhelming commentary from so called armchair experts with theories that often border on the bizarre.

So, if you are familiar with the aircraft type ether as a pilot, crew member or engineer or else you are familiar with the airline or the route and location of the accident then feel free to discuss. If you are none of the above but have a question for anyone of the above then feel free. If you are going to make assumptions then at least can we have your qualification for doing so. Also, there is no need for endless links to media articles about the incident unless there is something new that has not been aired here already.

Finally, let me repeat, that this is not the place for grieving messages of condolence. It's a 'given' that we feel for the victims and their families and let's leave it at that.

[md80forum]

Some news data is being compiled here:

http://www.md80.net/yabbse/index.php/topic,2121.msg6458.html#msg6458

Some background on the airline below. The plane is an ex-Continental 1986-build parked in Mojave right after 9-11 for 39 months.

http://www.md80.net/yabbse/index.php/topic,644.0.html

[Flathatter]

Descend rate for a clean MD-80 with both engines out is roughly 2500fpm.

[MikeJ]

Completely recognising Danny's comments above, I do have a technical point to question.
My kitbuilt 'thingy' clean best glide gives 1200fpm. With gear down, about 1600fpm. This still lets me practice my PFL from downwind to a smooth landing on the runway, although very steep, but round out positive with best glide speed maintained.

Decades ago, a Trident captain assured me that he could confidently land it with no power from a glide approach.
We have had much more recently a mid-antlantic Airbus, all fuel leaked out, managing to dead stick it into the Azores with no loss of life. What wonderful piloting!

2500fpm in an MD82 seems wholly consistent with all this.

Why was it overland by the Columbia/Venezuela border on a flight from Panama to Martinique? Could not all have survived if he landed on the sea, especially if he had altitude to position it by a beach?

MikeJ

[HowlingWind]

Why was it overland by the Columbia/Venezuela border on a flight from Panama to Martinique? Where he ended up wasn't too far off a straight path from Panama to Martinique, but presumably he was there due to his announced intent to divert to Maiquetia (Caracas) when he first reported engine problems. Could not all have survived if he landed on the sea, especially if he had altitude to position it by a beach? The recent thread on the ATR in the sea off Italy contained a great deal of discussion on this issue. Chances of a casualty-free ditching are almost nil even under the most favourable of circumstances.

[dawn raider]

done some flying down there and although maracaibo is fine the surrounding area is simply jungle / mountains from memory. especially further south.

very hard to find a suitable flat area to glide into with an a/c that size. then once you're down youre only getting out by helo.

[sgt_pepper]

2500fpm in an MD82 seems wholly consistent with all this.

Why was it overland by the Columbia/Venezuela border on a flight from Panama to Martinique? Could not all have survived if he landed on the sea, especially if he had altitude to position it by a beach?


I'm not sure they could do that. The accident occurred around 02:00 AM LT and it was quite impossible to make a safe emergency landing on the sea using a rate of descent described above.
However some years ago a Varig B737-200 made an emergency landing after losing both engines during a night flight over the Amazon rainforest. Several people survived including all crew.

[aardvark2zz]

These vertical rates of descent seem to be quite high compared to a controlled glide of 1400 ft/min achieved by the Transat Glider (at no fuel weight).

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=71910&perpage=15&highlight=transat&pagenumber=10

[Stubenfliege 2]

Hi,

some usefull Infos about the accident:

http://www.rescate.com/HK-4374X.html

It´s in spanish language, but that´s what babelfish is for.

[747FOCAL]

We all know how rare a dual engine failure on one aircraft is....... According to this article, the aircraft had just been equipped with a hushkit.

Plane Crash in Venezuela Leaves 160 Dead
By IAN JAMES, Associated Press Writer
1 hour ago


This is an undated file photo of David Muoz, ...
CARACAS, Venezuela - A plane carrying vacationers home to the French Caribbean island of Martinique crashed Tuesday in western Venezuela after reporting engine problems, killing all 160 people on board, officials said.

The McDonnell Douglas MD-82 was headed from Panama to Martinique when its pilot requested permission to make an emergency landing just after 3 a.m., saying there was trouble with both engines, said Col. Francisco Paz, president of the National Civil Aviation Institute.

Airport authorities lost radio contact with the West Caribbean Airways plane roughly 10 minutes later in the remote area of Machiques, near the border with Colombia some 400 miles west of Caracas, he said.

"The plane went out of control and crashed," said Paz said. "There are no survivors."

Rescue teams pulled dozens of bodies from the wreckage, which officials said was strewn across a forested area among farms. They also found one of the plane's black boxes, which could give clues about the crash, said Air Force Maj. Javier Perez, the search and rescue chief. He said the cockpit voice recorder had yet to be found.

The French civil aviation authority said all the passengers were French citizens from Martinique.

About 150 distraught friends and relatives, many crying, gathered in Martinique outside the city hall of Ducos, a town of 20,000 people where about 30 of the victims reportedly lived.

"The airplane should have landed early this morning. I heard on the radio it had crashed," said Claire Renette, 40, whose sister had been on the plane. "I don't understand. It's as though the sky fell on my head today."

Town officials brought in doctors and psychologists. Officials in Martinique said the vacationers included civil servants and their families who had chartered the flight for a one-week trip to Panama.

French President Jacques Chirac expressed his "strong emotion" as he learned of the "appalling catastrophe" and offered condolences to families of victims.

He sent France's minister for overseas territories to Martinique, and opened a crisis center at the Foreign Ministry to maintain contacts with Venezuelan authorities and victims' families.

The airline, in a statement from Colombia, said 152 passengers, including an infant, and eight Colombian crew members were aboard the plane. Venezuelan officials confirmed there were 160 aboard, including eight crew members.

The airline said the pilot reported an emergency 20 miles from the Colombia-Venezuela border. Authorities said the plane requested permission to attempt an emergency landing at the nearby airport in Maracaibo, Venezuela, but never made it.

It went down in a wooded area between two farms in the western state of Zulia, said German Bracho, the state's director of civil protection.

"Residents in the area said they heard an explosion," Paz said.

French Transport Minister Dominique Perben said West Caribbean Airways had operated a charter since spring between Panama and the French Caribbean departments of Martinique and Guadeloupe.

French aviation authorities checked the plane twice since May but found nothing unusual, he said. For this flight, the plane had been chartered by a Martinique travel agency, he said.

Peter Goelz, former managing director of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, said investigators would most likely look for evidence of fuel contamination.

"It's not unusual to lose one engine. It is unusual to lose both," Goelz said. "One of the first things you always look at is fuel contamination."

Goelz said he understood that both engines had recently had work done on them to suppress noise. Within the last few weeks, he said, hush kits _ noise-suppression devices _ were supplied to the engines.

The United States sent four investigators to Venezuela to help.

West Caribbean Airways, a Colombian airline, began service in 1998. In March, a twin-engine plane it operated crashed during takeoff from the Colombian island of Old Providence, killing eight people and injuring the other six passengers.

In the Colombian island of Old Providence, officials at the island's small airport announced the suspension Tuesday of all West Caribbean flights, without giving a reason.

Two dozen stranded passengers huddled around a television in Old Providence's palm-studded airport, watching news reports of the crash.

"I don't even want to fly on West Caribbean, even if they offer a flight," said Olmo Cardoso, a Colombian-Italian student visiting relatives on Old Providence. "Two crashes in such a short period is obviously too much. There's something wrong."

Two other airplane crashes in Venezuela in the past year both involved military planes. In December, a military plane crashed in a mountainous area near Caracas, killing all 16 people on board. In August 2004, a military plane crashed into a mountain in central Venezuela, killing 25 people.

Venezuela's last major civilian crash was in 2001, when an airplane from the Venezuelan airline Rutaca crashed in southern Venezuela, killing all 24 people on board and injuring three people on the ground.

Tuesday's crash came only two days after a Cypriot airliner plunged into the mountains north of Athens, Greece, killing all 121 people aboard.

[Jordan D]

BBC News article is reporting currently that the death total has risen to 160 on board (152 pax + 8 crew).

Article is viewable - here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4156224.stm)

Jordan

[md80forum]

Write-thru from my MD-80 International Forum:

Posted at 16AUG05 2100Z. For updates, please click here (http://www.md80.net/yabbse/index.php/topic,2121.msg6458.html#msg6458)

An MD-82 from Colombian carrier West Caribbean crashed at 03:30 (UTC 07:30) in remote western Venezuela with 152 passengers and eight Colombian crew aboard early Tuesday, an aviation official said. No one on the flight reportedly survived. All passengers were reported to be from French Martinique, which was the destination of the flight.

West Caribbean Airways flight WCW 708 had departed in Tocumen, Panama at 02:00 (06:00 UTC) with destination Fort de France, Martinique. Over western Venezuela the crew reported engine trouble to the air traffic control in Caracas, said Francisco Paz, president of the National Aviation Institute.

The MD-82 entered Venezolan airspace at 02:51 (06:51 UTC) at intersection SIDOS. Seven minutes later, at 02:58 (06:58 UTC) the flight requested descent from Caracas-Maiquetia from FL330 (33,000 ft) to FL140 (14,000 ft). Time was then 02:58 (06:58 UTC) and the aircraft's position was N 09°38'20"/W 72°48'28".

The aircraft was handed over to Maiquetia Center at FL310 and was lost from radar at 14,300 ft descending rapidly at 03:01 (07:01 UTC) in a steep descent of 7,000 ft/min, which is near triple the normal descent rate of an MD-80 at dual engine flame-out at high altitude. When lost from radar screen its position was N 09°43'00"/W 72°37'46".

The last radio transmission from the plane was at 03:02 (07:02 UTC) when the crew radioed that the aircraft was uncontrollable.

"Residents in the area said they heard an explosion," Paz said. The plane went down close to river Rio Tucuco, in the Cachaman area near a farm called La Cucharita.

The plane had been chartered for tourists, and 152 passengers were listed on the flight plan, Paz said. One of the passengers was a boy child.

The search and rescue helicopter teams left Maracaibo and Coquivacoa at dawn 06:30 (UTC 10:30) and arrived on the crash site (N 09°39' 69" W 72°36'40"), 7 hours after the crash, at 9:45 (UTC 13:45). The crash site was located 74 nm from Maracaibo and 24 nm from Machiques.

No survivors were found among the debris. The bodies are stored in a temporary morgue near the crash site, and will be helicoptered into Maracaibo, Venezuela. The two black boxes of the MD-82 have been found.

The aircraft had in use with U.S Continental Airlines until one month after 9-11, in 2001. After that it was in Mojave desert parking for three and a half years, until joining West Caribbean in January this year.

The crew was all-Colombian: Captain Omar Ospina; First Officer David Muñoz (age 21), Flight Attendants: Gustavo García, Angela Peña, Wilson Giovanni Fallaci and Alejandra Estrada. On board were also Mechanic Edgar Jérez and another employee of the airline John Jairo Buendía.

(compiled from Rescate.com, AP and other news sources).

[Capt.KAOS]

Descending at nearly 35m/s? That seems rather fast. I hope - if it is an engine failure - that people have survived. Alaska Airlines Flight 261 (http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2002/AAR0201.pdf) fell 17,800 feet in 1mins 20secs...

[jmc1980]

Alaska Airlines Flight 261 fell 17,800 feet in 1mins 20secs...

so??
from memory this crash was due to a failed stab trim screwjack (due to no lubricating), so I fail to see a relation between the 2 accidents. Unless you are suggesting that the same thing happenned to the West Caribbean aircraft.

[capo mbinzo]

The aircraft [HK-4374X] was on a passenger flight from Panama City, Panama to Fort de France on the Caribbean Island of Martinique when the crew reported trouble with one of the MD-80's two engines to Venezuelan air traffic control. They announced intentions to divert to Caracas. Shortly thereafter, they reported that their other engine had failed. Initial reports suggest that the aircraft then began a rapid descent, crashing into mountainous terrain some 20 miles from the Colombian border with Venezuela:{

[747FOCAL]

Hmmm. Starting to sound like rotor burst with hydro failure (tail section).

[mocoman]

@jmc1980


Capt.KAOS was merely pointing out that 7000ft/min would not be unprecedented. I would suggest that your assumption that conclusions were being drawn as to the reasons behind this incident may be flawed.

[swh]

Suggest before conclusions are drawn as to what happened, below is whats left, its not going to be a simple investigation, not that any investigation is simple.

:(

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b330/somewateringhole/image002.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b330/somewateringhole/image003.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b330/somewateringhole/image004.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b330/somewateringhole/image005.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b330/somewateringhole/image006.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b330/somewateringhole/image007.jpg

[broadreach]

Whatever the rate of descent was at the beginning (could it have been for airspeed after the flameout?) it would seem from the photos that the aircraft landed flat, tail's intact. From the TV coverage I saw this evening, the crash site was adjacent to very flat, swampy land at which the guys may have been aiming. At two or three in the morning, pitch black, overcast, little moonlight, not much way of judging altitude or of knowing they'd hit just before a lightly wooded area. Pretty awful situation and the worst of luck.

The dilemma of running out of steam over unknown terrain in the dark was faced by a Varig crew in 1989. PP-VMK, a 737-200, exhausted their fuel after missing Belem and made a forced landing hundreds of miles away. Whether by sheer luck, the right size and consistency of the forest's trees or by skill in flaring at the right time, or a combination of all three, a fair number of people survived. Nearly all of the casualties were due to seats breaking loose and cascading forward during the crash; the hull was pretty much intact.

[punkalouver]

The dilemma of running out of steam over unknown terrain in the dark was faced by a Varig crew in 1989. PP-VMK, a 737-200, exhausted their fuel after missing Belem and made a forced landing hundreds of miles away. Whether by sheer luck, the right size and consistency of the forest's trees or by skill in flaring at the right time, or a combination of all three, a fair number of people survived. Nearly all of the casualties were due to seats breaking loose and cascading forward during the crash; the hull was pretty much intact.

Are those the guys that had their ADF's tuned up for the football match instead of navigating and got lost?

[McGinty]

There is one obvious conclusion that comes from putting together the video report that is on the BBC web site report on the crash (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4158126.stm) and the crash site pictures that are posted above.

In the BBC video report the General from the Venezuelan National Guard who describes the scene of the crash says that there was "no fire" at the site.

In the pictures provided by swh above, there is no obvious sign of any major fire.

In the BBC report, the graphic of the plane's flight path shows that it was only about one third of the way to its destination in Martinique when it crashed. It ought to have had enough fuel on board to have have made it the remaining two thirds of the way to its destination.

Why was there no fire when it crashed?

This plane ran out of fuel in mid-flight, it would seem.....

[747FOCAL]

BBC is now reporting that local farmers said it was on fire before it crashed. The crash site shows that the aircraft was out of control before impact due to the destruction.

Its still confusing at best.

[McGinty]

The third picture from the bottom of swh's post shows the forward crash path. The only thing that went up in flames in that picture was the hydraulic fluid and engine oil, I suspect.

Eyewitness accounts of planes being on fire before impact are notoriously unreliable.

[md80forum]

"On fire before impact" is probably the most common eyewitness error.

[McGinty]

The other unfortunate thing about the pictures provided by swh is the fact that these pilots were clearly trying to manage a controlled crash landing in the dark. The rate of descent was obviously just too high, although the stricken plane's attitude appears to have been correct for a controlled crash landing.

They must have tried hard, poor devils.

[747FOCAL]

Are there any pictures of the engines? I don't see them or their remains in any of the pictures.

Maybe the pictures don't show the entire crash site, but if they do the debris pile is not very long for something that was probably moving between 160 and 200 kts. they hit very hard.

[JamesT73J]

What terrible pictures. I'm wondering if there's more of the vertical stab and tail structure than can be seen there. It appears almost as if it's 'sunk'.

Seems to be some confusion as to what the crew actually declared, in terms of engine trouble or control difficulties. It's frustrating to think that we're in an era of the internet and 24hr news coverage, where information is available so rapidly, and in such quantities, yet it's harder than ever to verify.

[172driver]

hmmmm. No fire - no fuel ? Seems a bit strange, given how much they should have had in the tanks. According to reports it was raining heavily at the time of the crash - can that be enough to prevent/extinguish a fire of a few tons of kerosene ? Also, Der Spiegel Online reports that a DHL freighter uplifted <quote> the same fuel<unquote> (if same batch or same bowser isn't specified) and flew To MIA w/o incident.

[Wiley]

The terrible suspicion is there (with this incident as well as the ATR in Sicily) that with the huge increases in fuel prices, some low-life might have attempted to cash in.

Could someone have stolen fuel from the ground stocks and replaced the missing fuel with water? It would take only one error - a failure to do a proper water check on the fuel - and disaster would be almost inevitable.

Apart from icing, (unlikely in both cases), I can't for the life of me think of a more probable reason for two engines to flame outin quick succession at altitude than contaminated fuel.

[angelorange]

Looks like they were trying to divert into Campo Bernal / ARICUASIA (military?) R25/07 which is 7086 feet long judging from http://www.rescate.com/HK-4374X.html and http://www.fallingrain.com/apts/9845.html

impact point not far off.

[sgt_pepper]

Are those the guys that had their ADF's tuned up for the football match instead of navigating and got lost?
punkalouver,
No, this statement is not true and the official accident report can confirm it.

[HotDog]

Wiley, in the good old days of Flight Engineers, no fuel uplift receipt was ever signed without sighting the water detection capsule from the refuelling agent, although there is one documented accident involving a 707 in India that was refuelled with water, a long time ago. If the fuel on this aircraft was contaminated, they would have flamed out long before it happened.

[Atlanta-Driver]

Water in fuel. Now that be a bad one. Hard to detect if it is all water in the bowser, can't tell the difference during a night time stop.

AD

[pom]

Pictures show lots of fire signs on the left, none on the right. Crossfeed problems? Fuel leak?

[4SPOOLED]

But surely even if the fuel was contaminated with water, it would be obviouse one a fuel check?

And if it was all water, the engines wouldnt have spooled in the first place. When checking fuel it is also wise to sniff, if it doesnt smell right, it cant really be right can it!

[UNCTUOUS]

BBC is now reporting that local farmers said it was on fire before it crashed. <<<"It was at 3 a.m., and the plane was coming in with fire coming off the right side," a farmer, Yoel González, told Globovisión television">>>

"It's not unusual to lose one engine. It is unusual to lose both," Goelz said. Peter Goelz is a former managing director of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board,

However, Applying Occam's Razor

There are distinct similarities to G-OBME at Kegworth (British Midland 737 crew were fooled by both the two engine vibration meters being offset to the right of the center console and mistakenly shut down the RH engine (left one having spat some hot end blades and its problems were obvious to pax and cabin crew). Unfortunately the back end said nothing - even after the crew announced that they'd shut down the RH engine.

The LH engine behaved itself at idle until they needed power after their idle power-off descent to Midland airport - and failed as they reapplied power during dirty-up for landing. They hit a 60 degree embankment alongside the A1 motorway, just short of the runway.

Re-apply power to an idled (but failed/failing) engine with problems and it will then fail with fireworks and give every indication to a ground observer of "being on fire"

UNC

[HotDog]

Pictures show lots of fire signs on the left, none on the right. Crossfeed problems? Fuel leak?

Surely, you can't be serious?!

When checking fuel it is also wise to sniff, if it doesnt smell right, it cant really be right can it!

4SPOOLED, you'd be advised not to quote this if you ever apply for an airline flying job!:rolleyes:

[broadreach]

punkalouver,

Sgt Pepper's correct. The basic error was having set the course to 270 instead of 027. The glide down, with some flap (don't recall how much) was at 170 knots and 1,000fpm and they hit the trees in the flare at 130knots and 800fpm.

[Danny]

Once again, can I ask that the enthusiasts limit their speculation to questions rather than making assumptions about things like water in the fuel. Testing for water in JetA is not the same as draining a bit off in a light aircraft and sniffing it. :rolleyes:

[aardvark2zz]

"It's not unusual to lose one engine . It is unusual to lose both," Goelz said. Peter Goelz is a former managing director of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board,


I wouldn't wanna fly under those guidelines !!! :eek: :confused:

[rons22]

if engines flame out, final approach speed should be much higher than 130kt as sink rate would be too high??

Combination of heavy rain and high speed could have extinguished the fire??

[sgt_pepper]

...with some flap (don't recall how much)
Flaps stopped at position 2 due to low hydraulic pressure.

[Backoffice]

As flameout = no fuel and this aircraft is just under half way to its destination, I must mention the obvious 2.204622 lb = 1 kg.
Well I hope not (again !!) but I would add it to the list of possibles.

[3MTA3]

Some French medias are mentionning a probable overweight take off. Any mention of that in the other medias?

[McGinty]

I second your thought Backoffice.

If this plane ran out of fuel one third of the way to its destination, then there is stong possibility of some kind of conversion error regarding refuelling. Litres versus pounds versus kilograms, as was the case with "The Gimli Glider", the Air Canada 767 that ran out of fuel en route from Montreal to Edmonton in 1983.

See this link (http://www.chemistry.org/portal/a/c/s/1/acsdisplay.html?DOC=vc2%5c2my%5cmy2_143.html) for details.

[swh]

Another jet (DHL) was fuelled at the same port of departure around the same time. Analysis of the fuel, at the departure point, and on the DHL aircraft show no contamination.

Officials have already stated that sufficient fuel was onboard the aircraft on departure, and the fuel did not have any containment.

Its early days, it will take some time to get to the bottom of this.

Can we move on from "running out of fuel" or "bad fuel".

[punkalouver]

Are those the guys that had their ADF's tuned up for the football match instead of navigating and got lost?

this statement is not true and the official accident report can confirm it.

Sgt Pepper's correct. The basic error was having set the course to 270 instead of 027. The glide down, with some flap (don't recall how much) was at 170 knots and 1,000fpm and they hit the trees in the flare at 130knots and 800fpm.

Thanks for the information. At least there is a high likelyhood of the French getting involved and publishing the final report on their website instead of the usual never hearing about it again that usually happens with crashes in this area of the world. Where did you find the official accident report for that Brazilian 737 crash? Not expecting a link.

[punkalouver]

The French are involved.

link (http://www.khaleejtimes.com/displayArticle.asp?col=&section=theworld&xfile=data/theworld/2005/August/theworld_August512.xml)

[broadreach]

Sgt Pepper, tks for the reminder.

Punkalouver

The jungle landing aircraft was a Varig 737-241, reg PP-VMK, and in fact there is a link to the accident report in aviation-safety, but in Portuguese:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19890903-0

I was around when it happened as, I imagine, Sgt Pepper was, and dismayed at how the holes in the proverbial cheese just seemed to align themselves conveniently to turn a relatively minor cockup into a major calamity.

Sorry for taking things off thread. Back to Venezuela and it may be instructive to learn how much time they had to think things through after it all went quiet. If they were aiming for a strip and had the altitude, what massive bad luck.

[swh]

Looking at Aviation Safety Network the DC9/MD80 series have had three previous accidents involving loss of power to both engines...[list=1]
1977 - DC9 - "entered severe thunderstorms between FL170 and FL140 over Rome, GA. Both engines failed and couldn't be restarted."
1985 - DC9 - "Just after lift-off, the DC-9 rolled left and both no. 1 and 2 engine compressors stalled."
1991 - MD81 - "the aircraft took off with clear ice on the wings. In connection with lift-off, the clear ice loosened and was ingested by the engines. The ice caused damage to the engine fan stages, which led to engine surges. The surges destroyed the engines. The plane then struck sloping ground tail-first and slid along the ground for 110m. The fuselage was broken into three pieces, but there was no fire. Crashed with approximatly 4000 kg of fuel onboard."
[/list=1]

Other icing accidents involving DC9's

[list=1]
DC9 - 1968 - "Flight 982 took off from runway 35 and, upon gear retraction, rolled violently 90 to the right. The roll was counteracted, but the left wing struck the runway. The DC-9 crashed and came to rest in a grove of trees, 1181 feet past the runway end.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "A stall near the upper limits of ground effect, with subsequent loss of control as a result of aerodynamic and weight penalties of airfoil icing."
DC9 - 1991 - "The aircraft stalled during take-off and rolled 90 at 50-100 feet. The airplane then suffered compressor stalls, the left wing contacted the runway and the aircraft cart wheeled. The DC-9 came to rest inverted 6500 feet from the threshold.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "The failure of the flight crew to detect and remove ice contamination on the airplane's wings, which was largely a result of a lack of appropriate response by the Federal Aviation Administration, Douglas Aircraft Company, and Ryan International Airlines to the known effect that a minute amount of contamination has on the stall characteristics of the DC-9 series 10 airplane. The ice contamination led to wing stall and loss of control during the attempted takeoff."
[/list=1]

[ironbutt57]

Was there any convective weather in the area? Cold they have possibly penetrated the top portion of a cell inadvertantly, and hail damaged the engines??

[Old Coder]

Looking back at the photos on the third page (compact impact?) and the reported descent rate of 7000'/min would these be consistent with a deep stall? I know nothing of the MD-82 but that T-tail layout was IIRC implicated in a few losses of similarly configured aircraft many years ago (BAC 1-11, Trident).

If so, and with no engine power to help with a recovery, the outcome was almost inevitable :(

OC

[SkySista]

Coder, funny you should mention the Trident (assume you mean Staines..?) as was talking about that one only last week. If I recall correctly, the wreckage on that one had the tail largely intact, as seems to be the case with this one (though to a lesser degree - no engines that I can see).

I'd also be interested to know if anyone (media, investigators etc)has mentioned whether the tail has 'sunk', as suggested by a previous poster.

As has been said, looks like a case of masssive bad luck... :(

And agree, if the fuel on the DHL was tested and came clear, it doesn't look like a fuel prob...

For both engines to go so soon after each other, it had to be something pretty serious. Someone mentioned rotor failure cutting hydraulics, if this happened when the a/c was nose-up then I assume it would be pretty much impossible to recover, thus inducing a stall - do I have this right?- anyone care to explain/elaborate?

(Edited for clarity of question - I'm after an explanation, not saying I know anything here... :})

[Techman]

How many of those contributing to this thread have any detailed knowledge of the MD-80 systems?

[md80forum]

Lots of qualified people knowing the MD-80 systems here -- less speculation about this crash, though:

http://www.md80.net/yabbse/index.php/board,17.0.html

Jan-Erik

[Dagger Dirk]

TDG Aerospace manufactures the NOFOD anti-ice system for MD80 series aircraft. The system was designed to prevent ice from forming on the upper wing surface in above freezing temperatures where high humidity exists due to cold-soaked fuel in the wing tanks. SAS experienced a crash of an MD80 in 1991 that was caused by the ice on the upper wing surface being ingested by the rear engines. In the later part of the 90's, Reno Air fodded both engines on a flight out of Detroit_with the same problem. The Reno Air incident caused the NTSB to recommend_that the_FAA issue an AD on the problem. AD2002-21-06 was the final result.
_
The NOFOD system is called out in the AD. There are two of these systems installed on West Caribbean MD81's. The MD82 that crashed was an ex Continental that had the Honeywell system which, when you read the AD, had been removed due to technical difficulties. This system has had many problems over the past 10 years. I believe Honeywell applied for and was granted_AMOC with the problems supposedly fixed._In April 2005 Boeing had issued a letter to all MD80 operators stating that the Honeywell system was not safe to operate based on experience with one operator.
_
I know that the weather in Panama is quite warm this time of the year, but it is also very humid. According to what I've read, the plane flew in from Columbia and was dispatched once the passengers were boarded around 1:00 AM DST. The articles say that both engines failed, originally they suspected contaminated fuel but this was ruled out when it was established that a DHL plane that used the same fuel solurce flew safely to its destination.
_
My question is do you think it could have been ice FOD from cold-soaked fuel that damaged both the engines? I talked with an ex US Air engineer that told me that they had ice FOD on an MD80 from cold-soaked fuel_on_a flight out of_Milwaukee and it was mid-August?

Has this scenario any merit?

[lomapaseo]

Wing Ice ingestion is a problem just after lift-off not afterwards

Severe weather encounter like SO242 and Tacca is a frozen pricipitation problem.

There have been two dual engine out events with the mad dog rear engine series. SO242 and SAS.

The Reno Air event recovered the surging engines in flight although they were both severely damaged.

The other events mentioned had no failures of the engine involved as the engines were simply responding to wing stall.

It's way too early for us armchair experts to conclude engines, aircraft or other

[punkalouver]

Seem to remember an ALM DC-9 out of JFK to the Caribbean that ran out of gas while diverting and ditched after multiple missed approaches.

link (http://www.aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19700502-0)

[swh]

Satellite picture at the time of the accident, impact is said to be at N09°39'69" W072°36'40"

http://www.rescate.com/16ago05.jpg

[Dagger Dirk]

Queries for someone flying MD-82.

a. I imagine there's a RAT or ADG for to cover "no eng-driven generators left" scenarios?

b. If so, does it deploy automatically as on the 767 (et al)? Or must it be deployed?

c. Does the standby peanut gyro have integral battery power or does it run off the main battery? [a good attitude source being everything at 0300hrs on a dark and cloudy night]. Can't imagine that any digital displays would be still up and running once back to remnant busses....

d. Is it SOP to start the APU after losing an engine? Assuming that it's airstartable.....

e. i.e. (wrt d above) If you lost both engines, can you still then crank up the APU? Or will that seriously drain/deplete the main battery power?

f. Is there a separate emergency battery?


With respect to the reported 17,000fpm final Rate of Desc, just trying to envisage a scenario where control may have been lost due to losing the standby flight instruments. That's not to say of course that a severely distracted flight crew couldn't lose the attitude long enough for it to become unrecoverable (about 10 secs)...... even if the STBY Flt Insts were up and running.

thanks in advance for any sensible input to my queries....

[747FOCAL]

No, there is not a RAT on the MD-80. Lose both engines and your down to the APU, if you can get it started. Very hard to start when the oil in the APU is like syrup from the cold.

[md80forum]

It is correct that there is a design flaw, which may cause deep cold fuel to create ice at the root of the MD-80 wing after flights at high levels, with high fuel loads. The phenomen is observable on ground even at quite high OAT's. It may fit the WCW708 scenario; previous flight Bogota-Panama City about 1:30 hr, relatively full tanks, night time, humid and dewy conditions. Do we know how much (warmer) fuel they took on board in PTY ?

It doesn't seem that likely to to people commenting this in a professional MD-80 pilots forum, though, that any FOD ingestion would have occurred up at cruise levels. I'm not an expert myself, rather a webmaster for those who are. So I refer to the MD-80 forum where more hands-on people may comment on these scenarios here (http://www.md80.net/yabbse/index.php/topic,2127.0.html) and here (http://www.md80.net/yabbse/index.php/topic,2128.0.html). Any relevant findings will be summarized and crossfed back to this thread.

As for your questions, this is what has come up from experienced MD-80 drivers' comments:

a. I imagine there's a RAT or ADG for to cover "no eng-driven generators left" scenarios?
No, there is not.

c. Does the standby peanut gyro have integral battery power or does it run off the main battery?
It runs off the main battery for 30 mins. The gyro spins 7 mins after final power loss.

d. Is it SOP to start the APU after losing an engine? Assuming that it's airstartable...
Yes its SOP to start the APU. It can be windmilled below FL240, higher up is unlikely to be successful because the oil is cold, as stated in the previous post. IIRC, there may also be different models of APU's with varying specs installed on MD-80's.

e. If you lost both engines, can you still then crank up the APU? Or will that seriously drain/deplete the main battery power?
Starting the APU is considered heavy on batteries and is prevented by relays if no AC power left. Windmilling is recommended.

f. Is there a separate emergency battery?
No, there is not.

Jan-Erik
www.md80.net

[FlyVMO]

I hope Im not being repetititive, I think I read at least most of this thread at some point.

On the MD 80 and up series A/C, what flight controls are available with both engines out and APU not running (ie no hydraulics)?

Also how is the stabilizer trim jackscrew powered? (trim available in this sit?)

I'm not trying to speculate, just simply want a better understanding of the situation these poor guys were in (not that pitch black and dead quiet isnt bad enough!).
Thanks,
FlyVMO

[McGinty]

In our local paper (Saskatoon Star-Phoenix) this morning there was an agency report that the Venezuelan chief investigator was examining the possibility that the plane may have run out of fuel.

[atakacs]

Is is just me or does it sound from the above posts that loosing both engines on a DC9/MD80 sounds like very, very bad news… ?!

(not that it would be good news in any case but it sounds like it would be more manageable in a 7xx or Axxx)

[ironbutt57]

as per the sat chart above, it does appear there are a couple cells in the area where the accident occurred....a foray into the wrong part of a cb can also take put out the fires

[RRAAMJET]

Ok, as an Mad-Dog pilot I was in the unfortunate position of having a total electrical failure, with an inop APU. We landed safely in Florida, but we still had 2 turning and burning, so not quite the same scenario, but I can give you insight into what you do have:

Capt has EFIS in Emerg. power and able to NAV etc.

I flew the jet initially, using just the trimmed last airspeed (it's frozen on the FO's ASI, so you can cross-reference the standby ADI and fly the last trimmed speed, as the stab is stuck. All other flight controls normal in this case (in Venezuela they would have had no roll spoilers - no hydraulics probably, even from windmilling engines)).

We turned off all high load stuff, especially as we tried to get a genny back on line (drive had sheared, so no luck there).

It gets very quiet. No avionics fans, and you can't hear the engines anyway.

The standby compass is not relevant 'cos it's back behind the FO's head and viewed through a mirror (yes, really - more on the design flaws later....), until you get emergency power selected you have no heading info.

You land at flaps 15 because of stuck trim, and the Mad-Dog is a runway hog at the best of times....


In my opinion, probably the worst, most out-of-date airliner still in mass usage. The number of cobbled-together sticky-plaster fixes to the original design is pathetic. It annunciates trivia, and quietly socks you with massive critical failures with no warning. It has the most un-harmonized controls of any large aircraft I have flown, and now it's a gas-guzzler in expenses. It's eye-watering out of Burbank or Midway. The build quality of the flight deck is laughable. It's CAT3 Autolands are pure thrill-ride student pilot stuff, probably not certifiable today.

You guys on A-320'S don't know what you're missing. :yuk:

[ironbutt57]

yeah seen PSA years back leave out of the southbound rwy at burbank....quite thrilling to say the least....

[747FOCAL]

I was just told there was no fire at the crash site because of extremely heavy rain.

[McGinty]

Hi 747Focal:

when you say you were 'just told there was no fire at the crash site because of extremely heavy rain", what do you mean exactly?

Do you mean that a colleague just passed on this information to you as gossip when you were next to each other at the water-cooler in the corridor of your office? Or do you mean that you had just read this theory in an earlier posting on this thread? Or do you mean that you have heard some validated commentary that emanates from the actual crash investigation process that is going on right now in Venezuela?

In other words, I am asking you the degree to which we should regard your comment as being a current objective evaluation by the crash investigation team, or not? I am not putting you down or anything, but I merely want to know how credible is the statement that you are putting forward. Is it your opinion, or is it a validated fact?

I readily admit to my own theory (about the lack of a ground fire being evidence of a lack of fuel in the crashing plane) being based on nothing more than sheer common sense, able to be dismissed in an instant by objective fact. I have no grounds for defending my position other than the two points I previously raised to propose this view earlier on this thread.

Do you have any factual evidence to support your claim that heavy rain snuffed out a potential fire? In the photos there is little evidence of any kind of fuel sheen covering the water around the crash site. Was all the fuel washed away by the torrential rain that also stopped the fire from occuring in the first place?

If the plane had enough fuel to continue on to Martinique and the alternate destination beyond, and if rain snuffed out any potential crash fire, then would there not be a ton or so of fuel sitting on top of the swampy water at the crash site?

[swh]

McGinty,

From Flight International (http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/08/23/Navigation/186/201122/MD-82+suffered+double+flame-out.html)The MD-82 crew is understood to have uplifted 15,400kg (34,000lb) of fuel to perform charter flight WCW708 from Panama City to Fort de France, Martinique. This was more than sufficient for the planned 2h 38min flight’s planned route, providing an estimated endurance of 4h. The flight left Panama City’s Tocumen airport at 01:00 local time and headed east, intending to fly a course that would take it over northern Colombia and Venezuela near Maracaibo.
The wreckage indicated a high- velocity impact, but heavy rain doused any post-crash fire. Late last week at least one of the flight recorders had been recovered. Panamanian aviation authorities said on 17 August that the fuel source at Tocumen airport from which the aircraft refuelled had been certified uncontaminated.

This link http://www.rescate.com/HK-4374XFOTO1.html has a large photo of the impact site, the location of the engines can be seen.

[Alty]

That is a great photo link. There looks to be evidence of a fire on the ground.

[broadreach]

Those photos indicate pretty clearly that there was fire, but it would have been an explosion where all the fuel was quickly consumed, the drenched vegetation didn't propagate it and what was left of the combustible parts of the aircraft were too scattered.

[McGinty]

Just moving this thread to the top.

Does anyone have any more news about the investigation into this crash?

[Ignition Override]

RRamjet: Yes, but is requires no hydraulics for the flight controls, except to extend flaps, and has pretty straightforward systems, about like its forerunner :D, but longer range. Maybe the AC crosstie system was overloaded or there was a generator bus fault etc?

THe report on the total failure was educational. Maybe you saw my complaints in another totpic about the C-130. Do our Air Force components still have NO standby ADI in the C-130 E/H etc? My father suffered two total elec. failures (C-130 A and E models) in night IMC.:ugh: Without top-notch career Flight Engineers, they would all be dead. Unless I'm wrong about the equipment nowadays, the people in charge of the Pentagon programs and funding are either too stupid or too cheap to care about actual flight safety on those series? Or were too distracted over a few decades?

[atakacs]

Just wondering... Shouldn't we have some news about FDR/CVR content at this point ?

[threemiles]

Two recent accidents show a chain of events starting with maintenance errors (wrong p/n fuel indicator installed, outflow valve left open), flight crews not doing their checks (fuel uplifted/burnt cp. indicator, press panel settings), consequently confusion about cause of system failures.

I bet this one is similar.

[Balmy]

isnt that almost always the case?

[lomapaseo]

Gee and all this time I was thinking minor malfunction coupled with inappropriate crew response :O

[56P]

With the exception of the A340 in Toronto, all these recent hull losses and loss of lives have involved low cost carriers, probably with little or no oversight by any regulator.

[UNCTUOUS]

WCA MD-82 Venezuela – night-time loss of control after loss of second engine.

Possible Precursor: NTSB #LAX83IA174.

Double sequential flameout on empty wingtanks in day visual conditions after flight-crew became distracted by a knob falling off a control set on the center console – and they neglected to switch on the center section fuel transfer pumps (per the checklist). Crew finally discovered their error and achieved a relight at 12,000ft.

Despite West Caribbean Awys being an acknowledged ailing airline, the reality is that a double flame-out at night can happen and it’s a very dark hole to climb out of. The STBY attitude gyro runs off the main battery for a max of 30 minutes. There is no RAM AIR Turbine and the APU can be a deferred maint item – but in any case, after a double flame-out the APU must be windmill started (and not cranked – it kills the battery). High altitude APU starts are frequently unsuccessful due to frozen and viscous oil. There is no separate emergency battery. Human error is deemed as likely as any other maint-related cause but technical factors make recovery from a double flame-out at night highly unlikely for an average crew.

It is believed that the WC707 crew were simply overwhelmed by developments.

[VP TAA]

This sounds more like the BMI incident some years ago in England where the wrong engine was shut down and only discovered at a lower altitude when power was again required for flight . ie they were very close to their enroute alternate and went into an immediate descent before establising which engine had failed . during the descent therwrong engine was shut down .
VP TAA

[cringe]

Shouldn't we have some news about FDR/CVR content at this point ?The recorders have been analysed by the French BEA. According to them, the exact circumstances of the crash cannot be determined without further work, "due to the quality of some of the recorded data fields".

BEA press release (9/9/05):

http://www.bea-fr.org/anglaise/actualite/pressrelease20050909.html

[atakacs]

BEA press release (9/9/05)
Thanks - I missed that one.

Not too sure what to read into this... I woud have expected some basic infos about the engines, crew actions, etc...

Any idea ?

[Alty]

I have read that the Venezuelans (accident site) and Colombians (carrier home) are the primary investigators on this accident. It appears that the BEA's task was to assist the investigators in extracting data from the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder. So the BEA would not be authorized to release any statements about details, cause or other circumstances. I think only the primary investigating authorities can do that.

The "French and Venezuelan judicial authorities" investigations mentioned in the BEA press release seem to refer to parallel legal proceedings, not the primary accident investigation itself. Early on after the accident, there were accounts of judicial/criminal proceedings in Martinique.

[Dagger Dirk]

VENEZUELA RELEASES FACTUAL INFORMATION
ON AUGUST MD-82 CRASH INVESTIGATION

*************************************************

On August 16, 2005, West Caribbean Airways flight 708, an MD-82 (registration HK-4374X), crashed near Machiques, Venezuela while on a charter flight from Panama to Martinique. All 160 persons aboard the flight died in the crash.

The following information has been released by the Comite de Investigacion de Accidentes Aereos (CIAA) of Venezuela. All States assisting the investigation -- France, Colombia and the United States -- agree with the factual findings. The NTSB is distributing this information at the request of the Venezuelan Investigator-in-Charge.

Wreckage

Movement of the wreckage has been delayed due to very heavy rains in the area where the airplane crashed. However, it should be moved to a secure area in Maracaibo in the next few days. Once the wreckage has been moved, additional inspections will be completed. Initial examinations on site revealed:

--Ground scars indicate that the airplane impacted in a nose up and slight right roll attitude.
--Wreckage was distributed over a triangle shaped area that was approximately 205 meters long and 110 meters at its widest point.
--Both engines exhibited indications of high-speed compressor rotation at the time of ground impact.
--The engine inlets, empennage and wing leading edges showed no sign of pre-impact damage.
--The horizontal stabilizer was found at about the full airplane nose up position (about 12 units nose up).

Flight Recorders

The cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and flight data recorder
(FDR) were downloaded at the Bureau d'Enquetes et d'Analyses pour la Securite de l'Aviation Civil (BEA) laboratory near Paris, France, during the week of September 5, 2005.

Both the FDR and CVR casings were severely damaged due to impact forces. Both recorders operated until impact.

Flight Data Recorder

The FDR protected module was in good condition and the magnetic tape was extracted in good condition. The investigation has gained good information from the recorder.
However, several parameters were not recorded as designed, including left engine pressure ratio (EPR), pitch attitude, roll attitude, magnetic heading, and column position.

The following events are recorded on the FDR:

--The accident flight lasted about one hour from takeoff to the end of the recording.
--The flight reached its initial cruise altitude of flight level (FL) 310 at about 6:25 UTC (universal coordinated time).
--At about 6:41 UTC, about 20 minutes before the end of the recording, the airplane began a normal climb to FL330.
It leveled off at about 6:43 and accelerated to Mach 0.76. The right engine EPR was consistent with normal climb and cruise values.
--About 90 seconds after reaching Mach 0.76 (6:49 UTC), the airspeed began to steadily decrease. The horizontal stabilizer moved from about 2 units nose up to about 4 units nose up during this deceleration.
--About 3 minutes and 30 seconds (6:57 UTC) from the end of recording, the Mach number reached about 0.60. The autopilot was then disengaged and the airplane started to descend from FL330.
--As the airplane descended past about FL315, the airspeed continued to decrease and the right engine EPR decreased to about flight idle.
--The airplane descent rate increased after passing through FL310.
--The airspeed reached a minimum of about 150 indicated air speed (IAS) knots at about FL250.
--Right engine EPR stayed at approximately flight idle through the descent and even increased several times, including shortly before the end of the recording.
--Once the airplane started to descend, the horizontal stabilizer moved in increments to about 12 units nose up (which is about full nose up trim) while descending through FL200.

Cockpit Voice Recorder

The CVR protected module was partly opened due to impact forces. Overall, the magnetic tape was in good condition, but the tape was partially cut due to impact forces. The overall quality of the recoding is poor, with many areas of static and loud background noises. However, valuable data was obtained.

Almost all crew discussions to communicate with each other and with air traffic control (ATC), in Colombia and Venezuela, were in Spanish.

The CVR recorded the last 32 minutes of the accident flight.

The following events are recorded on the CVR:

--At about 06:53 UTC, approximately 8 minutes before the end of recording (while the airplane is level at
FL330) the flight crew discusses weather concerns that included possible icing conditions. The flight crew also discusses turning on engine and airfoil anti-ice.
--About 3 minutes and 30 seconds (6:57 UTC) before the end of the recording, the crew requests and is cleared to descend to FL310.
--About 3 minutes before the end of the recording, an audio warning similar to altitude alert is heard, followed
22 seconds later by a sound similar to stick shaker
(6:58 UTC) and then an aural stall warning alert.
These warnings sound continuously until the end of the recording.
--The flight crew requests subsequently lower altitudes of FL290, FL240, and finally 14,000 feet.
--The flight crew does not declare an emergency, and they do not refer to any checklist during the descent.
--About 1 minute after the start of the sound similar to the stick shaker, the flight crew states that they had a dual engine flameout when asked by ATC if they had a problem.
--Last radio transmission from the flight crew to ATC was at about 07:00:11 UTC.
--About 8 seconds before the end of recording, a ground proximity warning system (GPWS) warning starts to be heard and continues to the end of recording.
--The time from first sound similar to stick shaker, to the end of the recording is about 2 minutes and 46 seconds.
--The end of the tape occurs at about 7:00:31 UTC.

For further information on the investigation and the contents of this release, please contact Tcnel. Lorllys Ramos Acevedo, Directora, CIAA, Venezuela, +58 (212) 201- 5491.

The information in this advisory has been translated into French by the BEA and can be accessed at the following URL :
http://www.bea.aero/francais/actualite/actu.htm. The information also will be available in Spanish (from the
CIAA) on the Safety Board's website Spanish-language page:
http://www.ntsb.gov/es/espanol.htm.

[TheShadow]

Link is

HERE (http://www.iasa-intl.com/folders/belfast/WCAflt708.htm)

any private comments to [email protected]

[DingerX]

I don't email.

Answers to your questions, to save others time:

a. The various MD-80 anti-ice systems are discussed above.
c. RATs and MD-80s are discussed above.
e. The FDR LH engine parameters are discussed in the report you pasted.

[Belgique]

Any cogent comments? Is this peculiar to the MD80 series?
.
An MD-82 that crashed in Venezuela last August, killing 160, may have been behaving just the way Boeing had warned it might in a 2002 service bulletin. The bulletin warned that the autopilot(?) might reduce engine power too much after a rapid climb, allowing airspeed to bleed off to the point of a stall. Pilots of the West Caribbean Airways flight, out of Panama for Martinique, may have been unaware, unnamed French investigators (Martinique is a French island) told the International Herald-Tribune. An interim report on the crash released by the Venezuelan government last November said the plane climbed from 31,000 feet to 33,000 feet and held the altitude for eight minutes before the autopilot turned itself off. The plane then descended for a minute before the stall horn sounded. It then fell to the ground at about 10,000 feet per minute, with the pilots pulling full back on the control yoke.
.
The unnamed sources said the process would have happened gradually, with the autopilot trying to maintain altitude using pitch adjustments until shutting itself off just before the stall horn sounded. The pilots reported that both engines had flamed out but flight data recorder information indicated the engines were running normally when the descent began, although the right engine was cut back to idle shortly after. Data wasn't available for the left engine. Evidence from the wreckage shows both engines were turning at high speed at the point of impact. The recorder also shows that rather than push the nose over to recover from the stall, the pilots held the yoke to their chests all the way to the ground.

[Avman]

Jeez! If true, then a frightning lack of basic flying skills. Makes one wonder just how qualified they were. :confused:

[PPRuNe Towers]

The rest of that Trib report appears in the Pinnacle thread also currently running here. It is extremely well written.

Rob

[armada]

Jeez! If true, then a frightning lack of basic flying skills. Makes one wonder just how qualified they were. :confused:

I believe a picture of the crew taken earlier showed that the F/O was in his early 20's. Wonder how much jet time he had... :ouch:

[MungoP]

I don't think we need to get bogged down thinking that problems of high altitude flight characteristics are the sole domain of jet a/c.... All a/c have a service ceiling ( from way back I seem to remember that it is when an a/c is incapable of sustaining a 50 ft per min rate of climb... any a/c at that point is going to be a bit sensitive and you don't have to be Chuck Yeager to recognise that you're approaching the edge of the flight envelope..swept wing jets are more tricky for sure ..especially when they give up trying to fly...but the lack of awareness demonstrated by the MD 82 crew and even more so by the pinnacle crew leaves one wondering just how easily professional licences are obtained in some countries..

[Loose rivets]

When hopping from one time-frame to another, I'm not sure which accident you are referring to, but in the case of the pilot that was pulling hard back until impact, then one has to imagine those last few seconds.

Practically any line pilot will be aware that pulling back like that will be catastrophic. All his skills spent, what he is left with is outside any imagined scenario short of a nightmare. I have no doubt that at this stage he will be in shock; pulling the controls into his gut, just a symptom.

I occasionally bring to mind the horrific image of a young American sailor, one of several hauled aloft on the mooring line by a dirigible. Some hung on and some let go quickly, but one fell from 100 feet or so. All the way down he was running...it made no sense at all, but his legs kept pounding away until he hit the ground.

None of us know when we will cross that threshold.

[bafanguy]

.
may have been behaving just the way Boeing had warned it might in a 2002 service bulletin. The bulletin warned that the autopilot(?) might reduce engine power too much after a rapid climb, allowing airspeed to bleed off to the point of a stall. .

Anhone have a link to the 2002 service bulletin mentioned above ?

[Green Guard]

Looks like another (at least a second) kill of unexperienced crew
done by EPR.
EPRs are better for one thing, and that is if the engines are new or worn out,
EPRs would in both cases, all the time, give correct power setting,
while N1s would not.
Same N1 on new and old engine does not mean the same thrust.

For all other things like the safety here we are.
The slightliest icing of ONLY a PT2 probe,
even if the rest of engine may be deiced OK
and your EPR will increase to maximum scale..........
and consequently Auto Throttle would pull that power lever all the way back

The rest is to read above.....