Thanks to the Air Ontario Pilots

[set thrust]

ACPA Infoline: Aug 10/05

Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your MEC Infoline update for August 10, 2005. It has come to the attention of the Association, that there are a number of rumours circulating concerning the recent informal discussions held between ACPA and ALPA Jazz.

In order to set the record straight, the following is a chronology of events to date:

* On May 25th, 2005, a joint ACPA and ALPA MEC Bulletin was issued. This bulletin simply advised all pilots that a joint luncheon was planned for Monday June 13, 2005, to discuss, in an informal setting with no set agenda contemplated, the many labor problems that exist at Air Canada, which are common to both pilot groups. Examples of these areas of mutual concerns were such items as flight safety, jump seat access, and the general relations with the Air Canada management in Flight Operations and higher;

* This luncheon meeting was held as planned and was cordial in nature. While no further meetings were scheduled, and in fact have not been scheduled to date, we did promise to inform the pilot membership of any such developments . this was reported in the Infoline Bulletin of ACPA MEC Chair, Capt. John Scott, on June 16, 2005. With respect to any future discussions pertaining to any potential global solution, the MEC directed the following:

* A formal letter was to be sent to the AC Jazz MEC, on July 14, 2005, under my signature, setting out certain pre-conditions that we, the ACPA MEC, viewed as necessary to be met before any future "global solution" discussions could continue. These pre-conditions were included in a motion adopted by the MEC are as follows:

(1) In the integration of any pilot seniority list, "Jazz pilots shall join the Air Canada mainline seniority list at the bottom of the list."

(2) "Any change to the ownership of ACPA's bargaining rights must be the result of a representation vote."

(3) "The Air Ontario lawsuit must be withdrawn."

The ALPA AC Jazz MEC has only very recently (August 5, 2005) responded to our letter and only in a general and non-committal manner. I'd like to reiterate that there has been no further meetings since the June 13th luncheon. The next ACPA MEC Meeting is scheduled for September 12-14, 2005 in Winnipeg, and this issue will be further discussed at that time.

Thank You

John Scott

MEC Chair

[Canadian Beech]

Could someone pls enlighten the rest of us as to what the details of said 'Air Ontario Lawsuit' might entail?

[brucelee]

To make a long story short, most former AO captains and some senior f/o's are suing a group of AC pilot's for lost wages due to their failure to achieve a date of hire seniority at the mainline. The date of hire they requested was the one from the days when AO wasn't even part of AC (a group of small Ontario based airlines which then merged and became AO). The lawsuit is a last resort in achieving a vendetta against the AC pilots who are supposedly now occupying their seats at the mainline. You see, as an AC pilot, everyone wants to screw you. The only ones who have succeeded thus far are the former Canadian pilots. Bottom of the list is the only fair entry into any company, but we live in Canada. Everyone here is entitled to screw their fellow pilot or at least give it a shot. And if you don't succeed, you sue them. Had these AO pilots entered the mainline back in the mid 90's when the going was good, most if not all would now be in the right seat of a widebody or left seat of the Emb with some even left seat of the Bus. All these positions paying well over $100 clams a year. :mad:

[shocked and awed]

Brucelee - you sound pretty bitter. You should be happy that at least you got on with AC. Most of us would be thrilled to be there and by the way ...

... I thought that every pilot got screwed !! Isn't that part of being a pilot.? See how many times you get screwed before you just give up on the whole insane industry.

Talk about screwed - I heard that AC is only hiring a few "token" Jazz guys. Nice to get screwed by the company that you work for.

As Always Shocked and Awed !!

:ooh:

[exbengal]

Brucelee, your post is a load of crap, FYI

1. A/C owned the regionals in the mid eighties and we were all CALPA members.

2. The mainline pilots initiated the merger process with all the regionals at the time. They even went so far as to have all the Regionals sign documents that they could not renegg on binding arbitration. The mainline pilots wanted the process they just didn't like the outcome.

3. There never was a doh merger, the regionals were dovetailed with the bottom 15% of mainline, close to what youre advocating.

4. About 2 years after the mainline pilots renegged on the arbitration (Picher award) the AO lawsuit was started.

5. Mainline had a big setback last month in court loosing on all 31 motions setfourth, hence you apparent bitterness.

It seems to me you have a difficult time understanding binding arbitration re: Picher/Keller

Perhaps next time before you go shooting your mouth off try getting your facts straight, it might help with you credibility

[meaw]

exbengal and all you Jazz guys,


What you fail to understand in the posted e-mail from ACPA is that the top 10 or so ALPA guys at the top are ruining the chances of all the other guys from getting a carte blanche into AC by getting a bottom of the list seniority number.How many of you Jazz guys now what the real offer on the table is....no many of you because your union knows that if it went to a vote all the Jazz guys would vote to ratify the deal and come to the bottom of our list.But my friend exbengal I will tell you who is bitter,not Brucelee but how about Dicentio and company who will scew your careers right into the ground.And you know who will be bitter in the future? all you guys who keep Dicentio and company there to ruin your chances at coming to AC.

Get off your asses , elct new people and get sombody to power who will have your best interest at heart and not 15 years of bitterness and anger and hate of everything Air Canada.
ont forget to thank your Jazz mec when your still on a Dash8 in 10 years.......had they put Acpa offer to you guys to vote instead of hiding the truth from you maybe you would have been a mainline pilot flying bigger planes for more money to better destinations with more days off and better career advancement.Guess its better to keep listening to your MEC.

[exbengal]

meaw, is that why only less than 250 pilots or about 12% have applied to mainline? yes we would all like to see some kind of deal but Capt Decintio and crew are not the problem, you guys started the process, renegged on it and then you say its the fault of our mec.

Don't you think there is a credibilty issue in dealing with you guys? You can't even get along with other mainliners, so tell me again why I would want to be any part of acpa? I'm quite proud of the fact how Jazz has emerged into one group without arbitration.

I'll take my chances on the litigation

[brucelee]

Exbengal.
"Don't you think there is a credibilty issue in dealing with you guys? You can't even get along with other mainliners, so tell me again why I would want to be any part of acpa?"

Please. First of all let me tell you we have showed more than enough restraint and professionalism towards the greatest rape of seniority of all time at the mainline. Secondly, you could have have the benefit of ACPA but it won't happen. I feel sorry for you.

Shocked and awed.
You're so wrong dude. Bitterness is in the camp of those trying to sue my colegues. I got out while I could. They wanted me to stay and help them achieve their goal and leave me behind. Don't blame the company for holding you back. Talk to your friends doing the suing. You're getting screwed by those you call your friends.

[set thrust]

exbengal,

What about asking the ones you fly with how this is affecting their career or even better yet have a pole to see what the members of ex-ABC, ex-CRA, ex-Nova pilots feel having the Global Solution talks ground to a screeching halt over your lawsuit. My feeling was, sure when you guys were separate not affecting each others silo's you could do whatever you want, but now that it affects every pilot in Jazz I am very surprised their is not a mutiny over there.

So my question is how in the right mind can you continue this, as ACPA made it a condition of the continuance of the Global Solution thus affecting all pilots at Jazz. So no deal will mean resentment in your ranks for years to come. You have to understand this is just not about the AO pilots anymore.

[brucelee]

set thrust.
Beacause they don't care about the rest at Jazz. Never did, never will. This fight has always been about a small group of hardballs and damn the rest. Now that they will never make it to the mainline, it's even worse. I feel sorry for those who were hoping to make it to the mainline, even if it's "only" 250.

[exbengal]

b/lee, you really do come across as the little kid throwing stones and running away,

1. You posted a load of crap above with your version of historical events, I called you on it, and this is what you reply with.

2. What part of binding arbitration do you not understand? regarding the "greatest rape in seniority", who's bitter?

Thrust set, the lawsuit has nothing to do with alpa/acpa, its just that certian acpa members are trying to make their problem your problem, but I'm sure this has been explained to you many times before. Perhaps you should start your "mutiny over this"

A few years ago the AO lawsuit was "fiverless and without merit", after last months decision looks like things are going to get alot hotter.

[brucelee]

Exben.
I'm just trying not to waist too much of my time with you. You've already waisted enough of it.

1. I didn't post a load of crap.There's much more to the Picher thing than you and I have posted and you know it. I'm not about to get into it with you. You are no more right today than you were when you lost that one in court.

2. Binding arbitration. We had seniority list at the mainline as per Mitchnik. It was overturned by a well known tainted and unjustified appeal. You call that binding arbitration? Not bitter pal. I just want back what someone took from me. You know all about that it seems.

How are certain acpa guys trying to make this my problem? Their not taking one cent from me, unlike alpa did when I was at your camp to fight your war. AC guys are fighting their own fight. They don't need strength in numbers and that crap.

[exbengal]

b/lee, what have we lost in court regarding Picher? answer that or are you again shooting your mouth off?

Try and take a breath between sentences are read whats posted, the response was to Set Thrust about certian acpa members making their problem his/her problem.

[brucelee]

Ex.
You're as miserable outside the airplane as you are in it. Flying with you was one of the most horrible experiences at the regionals. You were one of the brainwahers. Too bad it didn't work.
Re Picher. I don't see you flying any mainline machines in this life time.

[exbengal]

nice intelligent response to some simlpe questions

[Lost in Saigon]

You guys know each other ?????????

[exbengal]

No not at all, but we all know his wife

[brucelee]

Let's just say he stands out in a crowd. The bengal says it all. But nevermind his looks, flying with him is a true nightmare.
By the way exbenny, you can only dream of women like my wife. better stick to the palm sisters, eh? Dipsh:mad:

[meaw]

Brucelee,

Make sure you keep an eye open so that when exbengal applies to AC (as a lot of these hypocrites have done in the past),
you can give a call to the powers that do the hiring and you make sure id,,,ts like him stay out.

I have been unpleasantly surprised over the years to see the exbengal types who made life hell at the feeders show up on course here.Too bad we only find out when they post the new hire profiles in the crew room.

[exbengal]

lee/meaw, you clowns go shooting your mouths off about Picher, and the AO lawsuit, I asked you some really easy questions in the above posts, but still not one intelligent response.

Sorry but I have not applied to mainline, but keep looking for me if you like.

Too bad about acpa's loss last June in court regarding the lawsuit, all 31 motions thrown out. Make sure you keep up with those legal bills though. Things will be heating up again real soon.

[©hris]

I'm an outsider thats been watching, reading, and listening to the happenings between al of these unions over the past few years.

Senior Jazz pilots are selling their young members short. Why? Because they are still pissed and bitter with the senior OAC group.

Binding Arbitration? Take that argument and shove it. What makes Keller any more binding than Mitchnik was?

It can't be proven, but I smell serious corruption among the (CAIL) ALPA MEC, the CIRB, and Keller. WAY too many connections between them for my comfort. Perhaps ACPA lawyers didn't do their job (due diligence) and make sure that Keller was a fair choice. He didn't even follow the CIRB recommendations for god's sake! Why didn't the CIRB give a damn?

AC Pilots made the mistake of trying to be fair with the CAIL pilots. They should have demanded bottom of the list. Knowing full well that it would never happen, but at least that would lead to a fair list that CAIL pilots would have taken and probably would have been happy with. Unfortunately, I think all mergers from now on will entail a 'bottom of the list' mentality.

If I am not mistaken, didn't ACPA offer Jazz pilots a deal many years ago, that if they had taken it, would have worked out very very well for them now?

Pilots in this country are just greedy, self centered, and only looking out for themselves. It disgusts me, and then bullsh*t of this industry has made me seriously consider getting out and pursuing something else.


My 2 cents.

[brucelee]

Chris. You're absolutely right, pilots in this country are greedy. Under the Picher award, the Jazz guys would have achieved seniority that would have bypassed many pilots already on the property at the mainline. Is that fair? Well, a judge back in Dec. 1999 decided it wasn't. So now the Jazz street gangsters decide to sue for lack of any other resort. This country is overpopulated with people who think they have a God-given right to anything they want. Time to take the thumbs out of their mouths and start living with the choices they've made. But no. The bitterness will soon be on this forum once again. Stay tuned. :{