counting the pennies [Archive]

redtail

30th Sep 2000, 01:30

With AMFA we are shooting for £27 ($40 Base wage). We are currently at £18, and if we catch up with inflation since our last contract, it will be £22. There are not enough of us for the current work, why do we need to go backwards? At worst we need to catch up with inflation.

The pilots have shown us that it is possible to pay decent wages without bankrupting the company, complaints from management to the contrary.

[This message has been edited by redtail (edited 29 September 2000).]

Whot_no_tug

30th Sep 2000, 02:50

The postings so far show why we have such low pay! If they are aiming for 27 in the US we shold be aiming for 35. The US tax is lower as is the cost of living. If we start at 35 it will be knocked back to 30, if we start at 22 we will be knocked back to what we earn now.

A spotty FO with 200 hours walks in to 45K plus expenses. After 20 years as a LAE we generally wll take what ever is offered. MAEL & BA have always shafted LAEs & offered inticements to the mechanics so they will vote to accept the pay rise & because of the mech / LAE ratio the mechs get a pay rise & we geta pittance.

We need to stand apart from the mechs if we are to get what we are worth. There is a shortage of LAEs out there, so lets not forget that when we talk about wages.

Remember we have always been our own worst enemies!

Mice

30th Sep 2000, 12:54

I believe that if a company is willing to pay an agency around 34 quid an hour, and the LAE gets about 30 of that, then, all else as it is, that is what the industry seems to think we are worth. If you contract and get that, why cannot the same be paid to the permanent employees. They can hardly say it will break the bank if they are paying an agency more than that, can they?

------------------
When all else fails, read the manual!

The hippy

2nd Oct 2000, 00:34

How about £50,000

1/ The manslaughter charge that we have hanging over our heads,just in case for some reason it all went wrong must be worth £20,000. can`t sea the company taking the full blame i bet some of will be passed down. (just a side note do any countries in the world or airlines require their engineers to have liabilaty insurance?)

2/ the hours that we do and the shift paterns that you are put on should be worth £10,000.

3/ The amount of nasty cemicals that the manufactries force you to use when carring out basic maintance (RTV/paints/ oils and many more )£5,000

4/ the amount of CAA exams and type course that we have attended, in time must exceed the time spent for any student studying for a basic degree. another £15,000

perhaps you think more?

------------------
Who said it was wiring?

Blacksheep

2nd Oct 2000, 09:17

Let me introduce a simple economic concept. We each have different skills and training, so each aircraft engineer is unique to some extent. What each of us is worth (to ourselves) is the value of the next best alternative. Given your present qualifications, how much can you earn at the next best job you are qualified for?

If find you are worth more doing something else, then switch jobs. If you want more than the industry pays for your existing skills, think about studying for an extra or completely different qualification that enhances your value. In the late seventies, BA lost a lot of engineers to the local Mars Bar factory where their skills were worth more to Mars than they were to BA.

The pay we get is just what the employers find they have to pay to get exactly the right number of people to keep the aircraft moving and, this is the important part, not a single penny more. People are leaving the industry in ever increasing numbers. As employers find they cannot retain enough people to keep their aircraft moving they have two alternatives, pay more or lower the standards. So far the second choice has been favourite. When they can't get or keep the right people, they take what they can get. Have you checked out your subordinates lately? More facial hair and more prominent eyebrow ridges than usual? Exactly! It may be time to move on. If you choose to stay, don't sign for their work without checking it out thoroughly. Takes too long? Late departure (throws hands in air in horror) Tough! Unless we insist on standards, as our aircrew colleagues do, we have only ourselves to blame. Unfortunately a "Can-Do" attitude is needed for our job and we are psychologically incapable of saying "No" or "Sorry, No can-do chief" Its a macho thing, its in the genes and we can't help ourselves. Thats why we are engineers...

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

spanners

2nd Oct 2000, 15:43

Whot_no_tug
Actually, as a not so spotty FO I had to take a major paycut when I started flying jets, compared to the wages I took as an LAE. The pay is comensurate with experience and I think you'll find there are no airlines that pay that sort of money to new starters.
Regds

spannersatcx

2nd Oct 2000, 22:36

CX do!

spanners

3rd Oct 2000, 00:29

I dont think this is true, if it was everyone who had a PPL would be trying for CX. you are probably mistaking $ for £!!

Regds

spannersatcx

4th Oct 2000, 00:00

spanners, a lot do, but not many get through.

redtail

4th Oct 2000, 04:56

So far there has been a lot of talk and wishing about higher pay rates, but have any of you organized to achieve this goal? A union will try to get higher wages for you before the market forces will, but you need to have a union representing you or work in a shop that will top union wages in order to keep their workers from organizing. It isn't easy to get a union in, and then it takes PARTICIPATION to keep it representing your interests. Some folks would rather just grouse and gripe about their conditions and never make an effort to change anything. I happen to like fixing aircraft and troubleshooting snotty problems, so I would prefer to stay in the field, rather than head for greener pastures. Other professions pay better than ours currently does, and we should do something about that. As I implied before, I think it is wonderful that airlines can afford the wages they pay pilots, since this means they can afford to pay me similarly, once they warm up to the concept.

Flying Banana

4th Oct 2000, 07:43

Will have to agree with spanners, not many new FO's earn that kind of money.

A newly qualified cadet at 'the worlds least favourite airline' starts on around £25k and spends five years paying back £200 a month to the company for training.

IMHO mechs and technicians in a large airline earn pretty fair money but LAE's are paid a darn site less than their responsibilities say they should earn. Is it any wonder many new starters can't be bothered to get their licences!!

trapper

5th Oct 2000, 23:50

Heard the one about a large company that restructured a few years ago, offered licensed guys a vote (but did not give supervisors a vote)to change their job title to LAE. This would also include a small increase in pay but license pay would be scrapped, guess what? It got voted in! Consequently the new LAE's now earn about one third less than ex-supervisors doing the same job. More to the point, the new LAE's now moan about their pay but continue to take extra courses and cover for no extra money. This is what they voted to except! Sorry guys, but if you value yourselves less than your predecessors you're going to have to expect poor rewards. Only if we unite will we achieve.

IMA Conehead

6th Oct 2000, 04:33

It appears to me that the only way to improve the situation is to Unite for the common goal.

Wouldn't the best way to acheive this be to Grossly increase the membership of a certain Association of like minded aircraft engineers and establish the mandate for change?

Firstly it would be easier to gain recognition and representation by joining an already well established organisation.

Secondly it would keep only those similarly qualified represented so as not to water down our cause !!

------------------

[This message has been edited by IMA Conehead (edited 06 October 2000).]

reracker

6th Oct 2000, 23:13

With reference to the last two posts, the restructuring vote was indeed carried because the vote included unlicenced technicians and offered them a £3000 a year pay rise for LIMITED CRS (RMA, BMA). They out-numbered full CRS people by 3-1.

Does anybody know what it would take to turn an "Association" into a "Union" or would an "Association" be within its rights to organise collective bargaining or industrial action ?

Which UK engineering outfits still pay licence money ?????

[This message has been edited by reracker (edited 06 October 2000).]

trapper

7th Oct 2000, 02:01

Reracker, the answer I believe is most.BA guys do cover for free (or some do!)

spannersatcx

7th Oct 2000, 14:45

The ALAE represent BMA engineering at EMA, so if you have enough people in at your workplace there is no reason the ALAE can not represent you. Why not drop them a line at http://www.lae.mcmail.com

PHIL@high49

8th Oct 2000, 01:20

come on we all know we are getting our pissers pulled. what we need is exposure and more exposure. also an association with real clout like BALPA , no offence intended at the ALAE but they seem toothless to me. How many other pros with lives in their hands (NO JOKE) would do the job on our pay rates. I love this job but sometimes think is it worth it considering what the outcome could be if I made a serious error. replies welcome

WenWe

11th Oct 2000, 03:48

Hippy - to return to the start of this topic, we should be aiming for pay parity with the Capt's within our airlines.
If you took into account the enormous financial impact our decisions can have (operational consequenses,spares charges,return from lease penalties,etc,etc) this would not be at all unreasonable, never mind safety considerations as the bean counters don't give a monkey's about them.

Blacksheep

11th Oct 2000, 09:19

WenWe,

Surely not ALL engineers should be on Captain's pay! There has to be some element of progression.

Nevertheless our compensation package for First Officers was fully revealed in cash terms in Rumours and News recently. I couldn't help noting the fact that our First Officers' salary, including all allowances and benefits, is higher than that of the Director of Engineering. (and all the other Departmental Heads apart from the Director of Flight Operations) Surely that shows a slight element of disproportion? I just came out of a presentation on costs given by Airbus in which it was revealed that flight crew salary exceeds the total accumulated cost of ALL engineering by a factor of 27%. We were told that in some countries labour rates are only US$10 an hour!!!! Now I'm not suggesting that pilots are overpaid, nor whingeing about their salaries. Flight crews are NOT overpaid. Compared to others with similar backgound and responsibility in the economy in general, flight crews are paid what they are worth. It is the rest of us in the aviation world who are being taken for a ride, and it us that are picking up the tab for the punters cheap air fares.

De-regulation? Don't make me laugh!

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

redtail

11th Oct 2000, 09:55

I knew you folks would get the picture. If the airlines can afford the pilots, they can afford us. The quicker they warm up to the idea of real pay for real skills, the quicker they can stem the loss of quality due to low wages in our field. If you are interested, go to http://www.amfa33.org to see how we are handling the problem in the US.

Now get organized and get on with it. Get a dog that will hunt. Do you want to wait for the "market" to raise wages for you?

SchmiteGoBust

11th Oct 2000, 16:46

I'm not sure about this,but do A.L.A.E. have union status in the eyes of the law. I believe they were striving towards this a few years ago, but I have lost touch with the current situation. If they do hold union status we should all join. Surely this will give us the same collective clout as BALPA has. Anybody agree with this line of thought or any similar ideas???? http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[This message has been edited by SchmiteGoBust (edited 11 October 2000).]

reracker

11th Oct 2000, 21:45

Scmite, don't just join if they have union status, join now, it's only a quid a week and if you are a member, you can decide how you want to be represented. The more people in it the better. Spread the word the more L.A.M.E 's as members the more recognition it will get and with that more clout. As previous posts have said, we need to raise the profile of our down-trodden profession and maybe then we will start to get the respect and loadsa money we deserve.

http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/tongue.gif

spannersatcx

12th Oct 2000, 00:37

This is from about the 2nd page of the alae website at http://www.lae.mcmail.com
take note of the 2nd and 3rd sentences.
http://www.lae.mcmail.com/images/alaeg.gif

Associations are, by definition, a body of persons joined together for a common purpose. The ALAE is an Association registered as an Independent Trade Union. As such we may negotiate the terms and conditions for members where the ALAE is recognised by the Company.

Licensed Aircraft Engineers formed the ALAE when the United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority were looking to abolish the License that many Engineers held with pride - especially as it had been earned through personal effort, experience and knowledge.

Aircraft are increasingly becoming more sophisticated and, again, efforts have been made to remove the Engineers Licence. The ALAE has had to apply pressure to both the United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority and the European Joint Aviation Authority.

Engineers are the lifeblood of any Industrial organisation. The Aviation Industry is no exception. Its Engineers - many of whom are members of the ALAE - help to ensure the smooth, safe, low profile operation of that Industry.

Registered office:
Bourn House
8, Park Street
Bagshot
Surrey GU19 5AQ
Tel. ++44 (0)1276 474888

Fax. ++44 (0)1276 452767

Blacksheep

12th Oct 2000, 09:22

I just visited the site and found that they have a much improved approach since the last time I paid any attention. Much work is still needed to bring the Association up to the mark before it will be taken really seriously in the corridors of power, but the foundation seems well laid. If enough people join, the necessary talents will become available.

Count me in.

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

SchmiteGoBust

13th Oct 2000, 01:18

Count me in also. I am going to join immediately.

near enuf is good enuf

13th Oct 2000, 13:12

OK Hippy,
You asked for a figure, here goes.
I'd be happy with 30 quid an hour. I do AT LEAST 200 hrs a month = 6000.
OK, jockeys sometimes do a good job and yes they have a lot of responsibility so give 'em 50 an hour. They do approx 80 hrs a month = 4000 plus the flt pay, expenses, makeup allowance etc.etc. = 6000.
Everybody is happy ???????

P.S. Anyone know how I can get a pound sign for my f*****g laptop.

------------------
So that you may not be the martyred slaves of Time,
get drunk, get drunk,
and never pause for rest!
With wine, poetry, or vitrtue,
as you choose!"

as,I,see,it

13th Oct 2000, 16:22

you need to configure your keyboard language in windows control panel

near enuf is good enuf

13th Oct 2000, 23:39

£££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££

As,I,see,it,

Yew Bewty, I owe you a pint and when I get my £30 an hour (permy) I'll buy ya one. :) :) :)

------------------
So that you may not be the martyred slaves of Time,
get drunk, get drunk,
and never pause for rest!
With wine, poetry, or vitrtue,
as you choose!"

The hippy

14th Oct 2000, 15:15

At last after 25 replies someone else who is willing to say HOW MUCH.

------------------
Who said it was wiring?

Whot_no_tug

14th Oct 2000, 20:43

I did 35 an hour for all hours as current contract rate. This is 72800. Sod approval pay & shift pay split of wages, it should be one rate for a LAE. The only reason for spliting payments is for lower company pension contribution, lower OT rate etc.

Still less than a Captain but heading in the right direction. Nearly as much as The Hippy makes with OT!

near enuf is good enuf

14th Oct 2000, 20:48

Porches aren't cheap to run though eh!!!

------------------
So that you may not be the martyred slaves of Time,
get drunk, get drunk,
and never pause for rest!
With wine, poetry, or vitrtue,
as you choose!"

A/c Slave

15th Oct 2000, 01:32

Come on guys, we need to do more than just chat among ourselves about this!
It is a fact that we Engineers or Techs which ever is politically correct have always been taken for granted. We have just as much power to ground an A/craft than a Pilot, 'actually more!'
When flight crew arn't getting what they want and EXACTLY what they want, they STRIKE! And it happens all over the world with all airlines till they get it!!!!!
And what do we do, we bitch and do NOTHING!

"An air traffic controller can unplug from the console at the end of the day, knowing that the days work is finished. When the flight crew leave the aircraft at the end of a flight, the chances are that any mistakes they made affected that flight only. But when maintenance personnel head home at the end of their shift, they know that the work they performed will be relied on by crew and passengers for days, weeks, and even years in the future!"

Trsty

17th Oct 2000, 04:53

New here. We have been having the same conversation across the pond in Canada. Got quite heated. Here's the link if anyone wants to take a lookee.
http://www.aviatorselect.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000073.html

Oleo

20th Oct 2000, 04:41

IMHO & FWIW, from a pilot's (ahem, junior pilot's)point of view, you guys are well & truly under paid in the UK compared to the rest of the developed world.

With shifts etc you should be on at least 60,000 a year.

Good luck to you.

SchmiteGoBust

21st Oct 2000, 02:50

Well said A/C slave. As far as I can see it ,the best way forward initially is for all LAE's to join ALAE. Personally I have just sent my membership off as a direct consequence of this thread. I strongly advise all LAE's to join. If the association has membership of the majority of Licensed engineers its profile will be raised and it will have to be taken in the same context as BALPA.
Part of ALAE's manifest is to raise the profile of Engineers. They will not be able to do this without all our support so lets give 'em a fighting chance. CHOCKS AWAY!!!!!!

IMA Conehead

30th Oct 2000, 00:53

Me too, Just joined !

If we ALL JOIN Maybe we CAN make a difference, otherwise all our whinging will fall on deaf ears and we will achieve zip !!

reracker

30th Oct 2000, 22:22

If anyone from the ALAE is reading this, could you let us all know if the membership is swelling, or if they have any idea what proportion of current LAE's are members???

The problem with my place is most are also members of the AEU or other unions and they do the negotiations on there behalf, along with the painters, refurbs ect ect ect.

spannersatcx

30th Oct 2000, 23:41

reracker, There was an article about how many members there were several months maybe even 6 months ago. Try looking through the archive of previous tech logs at www.lae.mcmail.com (http://www.lae.mcmail.com)
Found it, in October 1999 of the 8000 LAE's on the CAA's register almost 2000 were members of the ALAE which is a recognised Union.

[This message has been edited by spannersatcx (edited 30 October 2000).]

reracker

31st Oct 2000, 13:50

Sad reflection of our industry, only 25%. I bet if the same question was asked of the pilots, it would be nearer 90%. I think there in lies the problem. As keeps being said

"UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE GET POOR WAGES AND S#@T ON"

Come on guys I think we all agree the best course of action, not all our colleuges are PRUNERS, spread the word, make the application department at the ALAE do some O/T. Its only a quid a week and the key ring is great, just need another £20k a year so I can put a BMW M3 key on it !!!!