Bank runners...how do they do this?

[Screwed™]

Snow down to 1000'. Sigmet for severe icing above 2500'. Freezing level 2500' Inter BKN 1500' & ice pellets at destination.
20 min transit to destination. LSALT to destination 4700'
In a Aero Commander. How?

[DirectAnywhere]

Not legally....:}

[swh]

Dont know how you can do that in any aircraft, turboprops and jets are not certified for flight into severe icing conditions.

I feel sorry for the guys who feel the pressure ...either from the company (to get the job done)..or from within (to get more time in the book for the next career step) for think they have to fly in such conditions.

:ok:

[Capt Fathom]

VFR.
Just a thought! :)

[apache]

anyone ever heard of "ACTUAL" instead of "FORECAST" ?

[TurboOtter]

Sounds like fun!!!!
We do I sign up!

Do you think there would be room for skiis in the back?:cool:

[DirectAnywhere]

Apache, please tell me that was tongue in cheek?!? Irony is usually lost on me through a PC. If it wasn't:

CAR 238 (http://scaleplus.law.gov.au/html/pastereg/0/51/1/PR005970.htm)

(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft must not allow the aircraft to take off for a flight during which the aircraft may fly into known or expected icing conditions, if the aircraft is not adequately equipped with either de-icing or anti-icing equipment of the type and quantities directed by CASA.

It was definitely forecsat and it was definitely actually there!!

[yigy2]

How we do it is diverting to more suitable airports and waiting for the toll people to drive to that airport and get the bank bags

Also there is no pressure at all to "get the job done". If we don't get in, we don't get in. We sometimes delay flights for hours until the weather clears. We go to IFR minima's and that's it

No one has even attempted to land in snow.

Talking about severe icing above 2500 feet, how does any IFR aircraft get anywhere (without anti icing) , not just bank runners?

[404 Titan]

yigy2
Talking about severe icing above 2500 feet, how does any IFR aircraft get anywhere (without anti icing) , not just bank runners?
And that is the point that is being made. They shouldn’t be going anywhere except staying on the ground.

[apache]

(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft must not allow the aircraft to take off for a flight during which the aircraft may fly into known or expected icing conditions, if the aircraft is not adequately equipped with either de-icing or anti-icing equipment of the type and quantities directed by CASA.

Totally agree. However, if an ACTUAL weather report is available, and the pilot can ascertain they he/she will definitely NOT go into these conditions, then it would be LEGAL to go! it does not say FORECAST conditions. it says KNOWN or EXPECTED!

I realise that this is taking the LITERAL meaning of the regs, and as such may not be the INTENT, but as long as it is both SAFE and LEGAL, then there is no problem.

IF CASA wish to prosecute on the unwritten intent of their regs, then they may have a problem.

IF of course, an ACTUAL was NOT available, and said bankrunner DID enter KNOWN or EXPECTED icing conditions without DE-ICE / ANTI-ICE equipment, then they are foolhardy, illegal and dangerous.

Having re read your reply, and the conditions WERE there, then I say that he/she HAS broken the law. I wasn't there, I don't know what happened, BUT the law as stated DOES allow one to ascertain that ACTUAL conditions where you DON'T expect to enter icing conditions are legal to proceed with.

[swh]

apache,

Dont read the reg 238 in isolation, reg 239 deals with flight planning "in the cases of flights away from the vicinity of an aerodrome and all I.F.R. flights", 20 minute hop is not staying in the vicinity of an aerodrome.

Reg 239 must takes into account "current weather reports and forecasts for the route to be followed and at aerodromes to be used"

With snow vis can reduce to below 50m, not VFR or IFR weather. Snow also means the OAT is not greater than 4 deg C (above 4 deg C its slush, drizzle, or rain), which means for a piston engine aircraft at least engine icing conditions.

Ice pellets to me is associated with airframe or aerial damage.

:ok:

[Screwed™]

How we do it is diverting to more suitable airports and waiting for the toll people to drive to that airport and get the bank bags
Pppfft..not from what I've seen over the years at this regional airport. This was not an isolated case I can assure you. In fact, I went over one evening a year or two ago in similar conditions to the other day when we were grounded due freezing level, and asked if "this aircraft is certified for flight into known icing?" "...uummm, I don't know" was the reply!

[rearwhelsteer888]

they are under pressure to get the job done,and they need to have a bloody good excuse not to go..!
:E

[yigy2]

How does an RPT turboprop fly to somewhere which has ice pellets forecast?

How does any aircraft fly somewhere with TS's forcast all day?

How does someone fly somewhere with fog forecast all day?


There are also other options for staying out of icing conditions such as not flying into cloud.

If we divert 40 miles to get around cloud, we do it. Toll pay for the plane anyway where ever it ends up

I can gurantee there is no pressure. Please understand this. I work in this organisation and can tell you.

I would be the first to tell you it is dodgy if it where.

Bear in mind now there is only ********, GAM, and wagga air centre that do the job now. These are good GA companies and there machines are the best I've flown. Not like the old days

We delay flights and divert, We wil take off at lunch time when it's a bit warmer if we have tol

We also ring people on the ground at these airports and get an actual weather report as well. If they say it's crap, we don't even attempt to go there

Screwed one isolated incident doesn't account for everyone

[connection fee]

“Snow down to 1000'. Sigmet for severe icing above 2500'. Freezing level 2500' Inter BKN 1500' & ice pellets at destination.
20 min transit to destination. LSALT to destination 4700'
In a Aero Commander”

Feel free to correct me, but isn’t an Aero Commander certified for flight into moderate icing conditions only?
:confused:

[swh]

connection fee,

Icing Approval:
a. The Models 680T, 680V, 680W, and 681 may be flown through known icing conditions when equipped in accordance with Aero Caommander Service Letter No. 196.
b. The Model 690 may be flown through known icing conditions when equipped in accordance with Aero Commander Service Letter No. 241A or Drawing 890338. Flight Manual Supplement 4 dated 6/10/71 is required.
c. Models 690A and 690B are fully equipped and approved for flight into known icing. See Flight Manual (Pilots Operating Handbook) for list of required operable equipment. Safe Flight P/N C-01426 and C-01427 required to provide stall warning.
d. Model 690C Serial Numbers 11600 thru 11619 approved for flight into known icing after compliance with Rockwell Service Letter No. 329. Serial Numbers 11620 and Subs are fully equipped for flight into known icing. See Pilots Operating Handbook for list of required operable equipment.
e. Model 695, 695A, 695B and690D are fully equipped for flight into known icing. See Pilots Operating Handbook for list of required operable equipment.

I have seen 500 series about with known icing STC, however AFAIK the 500 series was never certified as such at the factory.

:ok:

[havachat]

Just curious why CASA hasn't nailed the freight boys if they just keep going up and collecting ice cubes.... Just a thought.

PS "DirectAnywhere" not by chance a high time instructor that loves watching charter...

[Wheeler]

How do they do it?

Easy, they can get away with it - usually. (Maybe that explains Havachat's CASA comment?)

Trouble is when one does it one day and makes it without incident, another (who is maybe less experienced), tries it the next and also gets away with it. Gets to be a competition of who is the most macho. In that situation who would want to be the one that whimps out? We just don't have a culture based on the art of leaving a bigger margin than absolutely necessary. Sure, you might think you can probably stay clear of cloud, but what if you cannot?

As for the difference between 'actual' and 'forecast', maybe one should heed the worst of either. If they are relying on that point of law, I don't fancy their chances. It aint often the Met people get that far wrong anyway.

Having said all of that, have been out west, IFR twice in the last week, just about managed to climb and descend in VMC, stayed clear of ovc cloud around Katoomba/Bathurst/Orange at 9/10,000 on both occasions, with lowest safes around 6000' and FL 4500 and below - was I legal? (Not sure I was comfortable, but I know quite a few Bankrunners who often do it - so why not? )

[Screwed™]

Having said all of that, have been driving out west, twice in the last week, managed to rob two banks and TAB, stayed clear of the Police around Katoomba/Bathurst/Orange at 9 – 10 am on both occasions, with a 10 year jail term if caught - was I legal? (Not sure I was comfortable, but I know quite a few Bank robbers who often do it - so why not?)
You’re playing Russian Roulette, one days it’s going to be the bullet.

[DirectAnywhere]

Havachat, assume what you will, but refer to the seventh post here. (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185845) Might give you some idea of what I fly and have done for several years now.

I'm just someone who spent enough time in GA - including charter - prior to my current life to know some of the s&*t that goes on.

That includes watching freight dogs departing at 10.00 pm into known icing with non-equipped aircraft because they knew no public servant would be out of their bed at that time of night.

[Triple Captain]

While we're on the topic of Shrike's, does anyone know who the CP or HR person that deals with pilots applications at GAM? Are their requirements still 300 hrs multi?

[rearwhelsteer888]

Mate you may well work in this organisation but that does not mean for one second that you know what goes on at other bases,you presumably work out of BK,so are you involved in the inner workings of all five other bases.I think Not
I can tell YOU there is pressure, and corner cutting and good cause for questions on this subject.
:E

[drshmoo]

Freight from Bankstown

TOLL won’t let you go unless they have called the landing end and clarified that you will get in. No one wants to waste money holding in sh!tty weather or holding in low temps were icing can be a problem. Last week I flew over the ranges and cruised free of ice then on descent picked up a little. Part of the story. I understand that some might suggest that i shouldn’t have descended through a little cloud that was hovering just below zero. Not all times below zero in cloud you will collect frightening amounts of ice - Bet it didn’t say that in the textbooks.

As far as being a bank runner goes, Toll are a lot more worried about the weather at the other end than at any charter IFR/VFR organisation I have worked for previously. Barry the papa smurf at Bankstown toll takes care for us all and they want us to be efficient but holding on the ground burns far less cash for the company than diverting due to icing or not getting visual or thunderstorms etc. This is done by calling operators at the landing end and also the toll staff on the ground.

It surprises me that GAM at other ports feel "pressure to go" - learn to say "no". This could be a factor of Toll at that particular port too.

Thankyou for all those people who have taken time to write there 2 cents worth in regard to the safety of bank runners. I didn’t know that peopled cared. Cheers and shucks for your concern
Any way I wouldn’t want to fly an aero commander either.....jokes

[yigy2]

mate, that is correct

Knowing everyone who personally flies out of the BK base, I know there is no pressure from that base only

As far as other bases go, I have no idea as I have not seen it so I can't comment

[sagan]

As someone who also flies for the organisation mentioned I can also state that I have never experienced any pressure to break any rules/ laws etc. And I am not in the bases mentioned !!
The ' pressure ', if any ,only comes from me to myself. The occasional courier may need a slap to remember their place but TOLL are good. Gee this must be a disappointing read for the seemingly numerous self righteous bores who think by writing their tripe on this site they are doing their bit to improve the industry. The same tired old names, same tired old cr*p. First time posting on this site for me, and , as I have a life, probably one of the last. But, as previously mentioned, it sure is nice to know people care. Shucks too.

[Next Generation]

Snow down to 1000'. Sigmet for severe icing above 2500'. Freezing level 2500' Inter BKN 1500' & ice pellets at destination. 20 min transit to destination. LSALT to destination 4700'
In a Aero Commander. How?
With a very tight sphincter, I would imagine.

[The Messiah]

Always know what your own comfort level is, grow a spine so you will stick to it and go out and get the job done to the best of YOUR ability.

Use the judgement you are expected to possess and respect the regs but don't fly in fear of them. The expert witness in any courtcase will be the guy in the left hand seat, not the guy with the funny wig asking the questions........and yes I have seen it first hand more than once.

[beer bong]

Hey Screwed !

Where did this happen? If it was where I think it was (SW Vic).

I was flying a VFR nav training flight on that cold day, the TAF was the same as you quoted but the actuals were no where as bad. Bit of light snow thats all,vis greater than 10K. The only ice I got was in my bundy and coke at the pub later that night.

Get a life..............

[Screwed™]

Nope. Night IFR bank running ops.Get a life..............
Not so much worried about getting a life as loosing one unnecessarily.

[yigy2]

Screwed,

People have just told you the answer to your original question

So why don't you take it on board and move on

But hey, thanks for caring

[turbantime]

I remember talking to a few people that did bankruns in the bad old days and was quite turned off by what they said.

However, things have definitely changed, these guys are surprised to hear that these days there is nowhere near the pressure there used to be and in fact there is a culture of compliance with the rules rather than a culture of bending them for maximum benefit. They're also surprised to hear that aeroplanes and pilots alike are well looked after.

There are many misconceptions out there about this gig with things that have happened in the past......but these days they're just simply not true.

[drshmoo]

In the old days there was probably more pressure to get in and to go regardless of conditions cause of the high ineterest rates of the time. The banks needed to get the paperwork sooner so they could make more money. I think there were more turbines floating round then too. eg MU2s etc - now theres a story on ice build up!!!!

[chief wiggum]

I heard this little gem a while ago about the "halcyon days" of bankrunning, where TNT wouldn't give a stuff about pilot nor plane - they just wanted you airborne:

we all agree that when dtermining whether there is "more than 4/8s of cloud at destination, then "Few + Scattered = Broken? "


The Bankrunners AIP ?
"few at 500' + scattered at 700' = Broken at 1200' "?

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

Not to mention the old 'TNT Ton' .:yuk:

[DirectAnywhere]

You never did get back to me Havachat...was it something I said?:ooh:

[Binoculars]

FWIW, a close friend of mine got her first IFR job with GAM. They paid award wages, and when she got the job, the chief said to her, "*****, I don't ever want to have to ring your father and tell him you ploughed into the side of a mountain trying to deliver bits of paper". She was impressed and so was I, and no, she didn't work out of Bankstown.

If more GA companies were as scrupulous as GAM, the industry would be in better shape. If a few rogue pilots want to wave their willies by doing stupid things, I believe you will find it's not under pressure from the company; much more likely their own egos.

[Centaurus]

Read in a US airline safety magazine that the ice protection system on big jets is essentially designed to handle rime icing conditions. It stated that mixed and clear icing conditions can exceed the design limits of the aircraft ice protection system. Reason is that rime ice are relatively low levels of liquid water and as such the ice will confine itself to leading edges. The ice protection systems can remove or prevent it.

On the other hand,mixed and clear ice are associated with precipitation - size drops and relatively high quantities of liquid water. These conditions can deposit ice on and AFT of your leading edges and when this happens your ice protection system cannot remove the aft portion of the ice because it was never designed to handle this type of ice.

Does this principle apply to GA aircraft in Australia that are equipped to fly in icing conditions? If so, seems to me that a thorough study of the icing forecast and types is vital to safe operation.

[prospector]

swh,

Very good dissertation on Aero Commander pedigree.

Unfortunately not completely correct. Your attention is drawn to BASI Investigation Report 9402804 appertaining to Aero Commander 690B c/n11380, VH-SFG, wherein it states

"In service operation of the aircraft found that flame out from icing occured under conditions that were not originally thought to be conducive to a flameout"

But further on in the report,

" Given the ambiguous instructions contained within both airworthiness directives, it is unreasonable to expect that any person associated with the maintenance or operation of SVQ would have been aware that the aircraft was not appropriately equipped for continuous operation in icing conditions"

Prospector

[swh]

prospector,

Things have changed since, the FAA AD changed, and the flight manual has chaged. From memory the aircraft had complied with the AD at the time of the accident, however the AD had a flaw in it.

The original certification basis listed before is correct, the AD addresses some engine issues to meet that certification basis.

:ok:

[prospector]

swh,

Just as an aide- memoir, some of the findings relative to icing.


15. All airworthiness directives applicable to the aircraft had been certified as having been completed.

16. The engines of the aircraft were not correctly modified to allow continuous flight in icing conditions.

17. Airworthiness directives issued by the Federal Aviation Administration and Civil Aviation Authority did not correctly specify the engine modifications to be completed before allowing flight in icing conditions.


Perhaps the original certification for Flight in known ice for the 690B was premature??

Prospector

[nig&nog]

Just a quick note to put my two cents in. Was a GAM driver for two years and it was the best flying , only left cause I knew I could make more money doing the same thing at other places(to cover all the partying for having public days off). The only pressure I was under was to better my drinking effort from the weekend before.

[swh]

prospector,

Its not uncommon for AD to be issued when an incident or accident occurs that requires modification to the aircraft or flight manual, or maintenance procedures.

Its not saying that the certification was premature, just the method of compliance used to get certification may have been not a representative as in service history.

The aerocommanders and turbine commanders have a very early certification basis, and I would suggest would not meet today’s flight into icing requirements. Aircraft certification has "grand father" rights, so an aircraft only needs to meet the original certification basis, not current ones.

However some of what your saying is correct, the NTSB put a report out in Dec 2004 looking at "26 icing-related accidents and incidents involving Cessna 208 series airplanes occurred, resulting in at least 36 fatalities."

They said "The Safety Board’s findings raised concerns about possible deficiencies with the certification standards applicable to the Cessna 208 series airplane, the cold weather operational procedures used by Cessna 208 pilots, and/or the design of the airplane and its deice and anti-icing systems. The Board is evaluating the certification and design of the Cessna 208 and its deice and anti-icing systems."

This full report is available from the NTSB (http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2004/A04_64_67.pdf)

Other good link http://www.ntsb.gov/alerts/SA_006.pdf

"Reduce Dangers to Aircraft Flying in Icing Conditions" is one of the NTSB's Most Wanted Transportation Safety Improvements (http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/mostwanted/air_ice.htm)

I would not be surprised if it was found that the West Caribbean Airways MD-82 crash last week was associated with flight into icing conditions resulting in a double engine failure.

:ok: