Ag-pilots working on Safety Inititives and would appreciate some input.

[Lowlevldevl]

AAAA's are convening a meeting next month to consider effective strategies to improve the Australian Ag industry safety statistics.
Unfortunately we'll only have a handful of people sitting down to discuss this rather than the roomful the problem deserves so I'd be really interested in any ideas that any of you might have that we can throw onto the table at the meeting.

Cheers,
Don

[dirtydave]

G'day Don, love to help. Do you need any more attending bodies

[Lowlevldevl]

Hey DD
Thanks for that. At the moment however it'll just be a committee comprised of board members.
Even if no-one has any solutions right now, what do you think the problems are?
One suggestion I got today was that since young pilots don't get to start their careers spreading Super anymore we've lost some of our finer skills re: controlling overloaded aircraft at the point of stall in the hills.
Personally I think thats probably a fair comment. Anything else?
Cheers,
Don

[Super Cecil]

Not sticking kids in Turbines at 1000 hours.

Not employing people with not much expirence so you can pay them crap, you would have thought the insurance companies would have sorted this one out.

Need more expirenced blokes training/ checking passing on tips. The chief pilot sending sprogs out to do the easy blocks instead of keeping all the cream work for himself.


Maybe self regulation (depending on who would be doing the regulating) so we could spend more time actually working and doing other things instead of paperwork and "compliance".

If things stay the same with CASA, getting people who actually know and can contribute to the AG side, maybe the same bloke could do all AG? instead of different regions and a hundred different blokes who couldn't care about anything but paperwork and dotted T's.

[currawong]

Come on Cecil, there are "kids" flying turbines faster than ours with a lot less than 1000 hours.

Agree with your chief pilot plug though.

Know of a couple of youngsters relatively recently that have stacked on their first hop.

Obviously somebody overestimated their ability and set them something too hard.

As for the "experienced" ones that run out of fuel or forget where the dump handle is (or put themselves in a position to need it) what can I say?

[catseye]

re para 4 and self regulation/administration.

heard a rumour that someone in the aviation safety forum had been pushing to use AAAA as the first of type for self regulation/self administration.

last meeting Phil wasn't available and wasn't sure if he would talk to the ASF next week.

AAAA are loosing the opportunity! Someone in AAAA needs to make sure either Phil or the president turns up at next weeks ASF meeting.

The Eye

[Super Cecil]

Phil's still around in AAAA's?, that's good, last time I heard he was talking of pulling out.

Currawong, people with a bit of time still make mistakes, I didn't say otherwise.

[Sir HC]

How about nothing? Currawong, do you have anything productive to say or are you just going to take cheap shots at someone trying to make a difference? I have not yet heard you say anything that is of any help to anyone. As for me, I think that check and training is the answer to a positive safety environment whereas your negative, non-productive attitude is a type of person we are trying to address in this safety forum!

[currawong]

:confused:

You lost me HC, if there is a cheap shot there it was not intentional.

If the description comes close to someone here it also wasn't intentional.

I agree check and training is good.

Just as I reckon sending a brand new Ag 2 out in an aircraft with a disabled stall warning device is bad, yet common.

Disclaimer - no cheap shots were intentionally added to this post.



:ok:

PS Cecil, you are right, everybody makes mistakes. Some people seem to crash a lot though.

[currawong]

This thread could still go somewhere useful.

Sir HC, perhaps you would like to expand a little. What sort of check and training? Is current training inadequate? It could be something worth looking at.

There will always be some element of risk in this caper. For my money, unforced errors are the ones that really grate.

[Turboman]

I have posted some comments regarding this subject on the AG 2 thread.

Most ag pilots can fly alright if they got through the training and got a seat but can they think safely. I am not saying we shouldn't do more check and training however that will mostly tidy up their flying and spraying technique, but how much safer will it make them fly.

I think we need to have at least bi-annual safety courses that teach people mental techniques to stay safe and reduce their exposure to risk. If nothing else it will promote a culture of safe thinking.

I was suprised many years ago to find a highly experienced 502 pilot never used to watch his flap go down, he'd just hit the button for a second or two. As everyone knows Air Tractor flap motors fail all the time, so what happens the day he really needs flap (which is everyday in an AT) and doesn't realise he hasn't got any until its too late. If he hadn't thought of it how many others haven't.

If we can teach people to get into the habit of saying "what if" to themselves more they should be safer.

[Paint The Sky Pink!]

The biggest problem I see is the lack of training done throughout an AG Pilots career.

There is a lot of talk of companies doing in house training days and going over dumping proceedures. Anyone out there doing this yet?

Shouldn't we be doing more check & training? I know we are not the airlines and you will all jump on me for suggestting we be a little more like them, however I can't see that it would hurt.

Our industry is doing something wrong - look at all the accidents over the last few years.

Anyone with any better idea

:confused: :sad:

PTSP!

[Turboman]

Just when all the pilot safety courses lost momentum and stopped. What sort of message does this send from operators.

[Turboman]

If you're at full power, pushing it through the temp and/or torque limits at the last minute is not going to save you. For an operator to suggest it is just dumb.

If the engine is so buggered that you can't get full torque at max ITT you probably shouldn't be flying it, if only for the benefit of the dumb operators hip pocket.

Your not going to win with this boss, you're doomed which ever way you go. I bet he's winging like crazy about insurance premiums too. Doesn't encourage safe practices does it?

Tell the OP's manager to get #$!^ed. They have no business determining load sizes.

This post now makes no sense (if you hadn't realised already) to the last post as the post it relates to no longer exists. It is unfortunate that this pilot felt he had to remove what he had posted, as it illlustrated the fact that some operators still don't take safety seriously. I am not going to say what he posted as he obviously feels he can be identified by the situations he described. Maybe his boss is on the AAAA board Don and you scared him off. Needless to say there needs to be a lot more eduction and cultural change.

[Lowlevldevl]

Thanks everbody for your opinions and suggestions here. I'll make sure this entire thread is printed and presented at the meeting in September. Unfortunately I won't be able to attend as I'd hoped. I'll be in Sumatra spraying cane.

At the expense of sounding dumb (There are no dumb questions, only dumb people)
I'd like to know what you think about a couple of ideas.

1. As recurrent check & training appears to be the focus of most of these posts. Would there be any merit to the suggestion that AAAA's buys/ leases/ whatever a dedicated dual controlled Ag-aircraft, kitted out with decent GPS equipment and dispersal gear. Say a GA-200 or similar, to be available to accredited training schools for both initial training as well as bi-annual check-rides. Or are the Cessna 180/185's we currently use good enough? There used to be a number of dual control Pawnees being used for training. Anybody still got one?

2. There is talk about doing something with a simulator. Some of the AAAA's board will be investigating this option in Melbourne. Anybody have experience with sims?

3. Some sectors of the trucking industry use back to base telemetry to monitor just what their drivers are doing on the road. How would you feel about the boss being able to watch your engine parameters, GPS position etc; while you're out on the job? (I've been flying a helicopter this week that has this equipment and it hasn't bothered me)

My ideas are probably too impractical, too expensive and unpopular to see the light of day but now you know what they are.
Anybody else got some ideas? Even if they're not practical they might trigger some that are in somebody elses mind.

[currawong]

All valid points LLD, the current BFR regime is mostly meaningless to ag people.

C-180, C-185 are pretty dissimilar to what 99% of us operate now.

I worry that if someone needs to be told crashing is bad, they are probably beyond help.

[Turboman]

OK Don, in reply to your last post,

1. Bi-annuals for ag pilots who only fly ag, by flying instructors who have nothing to do with ag don't really achieve a lot, we all know this. Ag training schools have all got their own training aircraft, I don't think they need AAAA members to to finance another one for them. As I have said before, I am not against ag check and training, but I think it will do little more than what GPS data logging and random visual checks from the ground can already do. Even so an ag pilots bi-annual should be more indepth than a normal commercial pilots. An instrument rated pilot, like an ag pilot has spent 40 hrs on a rating. The instrument pilot has to do a check each year which is quite intensive, the ag pilot doesn't ever have to do a check again relating to his rating (after supervision and 13 monthly check).

2. I have had no experience with ag sims. It could be good if there is someone competent operating it and throwing realistic scenarios at the pilot. Maybe part of an ag annual/bi-annual or pilot safety course.

3. Good idea, but to expensive at this stage I think, even non real time. Would be good to flush out the cowboys.

We can instigate the first point fairly easily as an industry. I'm sure (but not certain) we don't need CASA approval to conduct our own flight check on behalf of AAAA/QBE/Vero. We have already had a very successful program of safety courses, surely we can get them going again fairly quickly. It all depends on whether the operators are now prepared to pay for them, instead of insurance premiums.

[maxspeed]

"the ag pilot doesn't ever have to do a check again relating to his rating (after supervision and 13 monthly check)."

What about AG 1, Turbine endorsmet(s) and night ag raiting?

[Turboman]

What about them? You don't have to do any of these if you don't need them!

I probably wouldn't have even bothered with my Ag1 if I hadn't needed it for contract work.

[currawong]

An ag specific BFR would be ok, as we have to do a BFR anyway, might as well make it something relevant.

Perhaps a "defensive driving" course for those perceived as being "at risk"?

By at risk I mean folks with a regular habit of bending metal. For many that run incident free for long periods or entire careers it would probably be a waste of time.

[Super Cecil]

Currawong, I knew a pilot (a skillfull safe pilot) who flew for 15000 hours without a prang, his first was his last.

I also knew one who went through his entire career, bent a few, wasn't a good AG pilot, retired intact.

We can learn from the past, how about covering prangs from the last 10 or 20 years and going through them at one of the safety seminars. There are reasons they all happened, we can relearn and reinforce good habits.

[currawong]

Cecil!

Glad you could make it.

You are right of course. Not a bad idea.

I know a bloke that wrecked four in 1000 hours. For my money I reckon he is in the wrong line of work. But there he is, hiring and firing, making judgments about something he is clearly incapable of himself.

Another hits about 1.3 wires per year.

Neither are the type to listen to advice.

Can't fire them, operators...

Both do a lot to the stats that make it hard for the rest of us.

Same faces are always at the safety meets, the people that care about safety, hardly ever the people we need to reach.

This is a positive discussion, hope it keeps going.

[Turboman]

Really good idea S. Cecil. As you say nothing like real life examples to "relearn and reinforce good habits", and they need to be reinforced regularly. Most pilots walk out of a safety seminar with safety as the number one priority, but after two years they are back flying as they did before they went to it. There is a reason instrument rating renewals are annually.

As we have highlighted operators are the major part of the problem. They set the safety standard for their pilots. If they think its a waste of time going to a safety seminar what do their pilots think, as they're usually the ones with the most experience.

I think we should have a full day safety seminar either at the start or end of the convention. We could do another couple of courses around the country each year for those who couldn't make the convention. They should be a compulsary part of the pilots spray safe program, worth 2 points a day, with a minimum of 4 points required every 3 years.

It would be nice if the insurance companies would also give discounts to operators who used only spray safe pilots under this program, and maybe they would, but they tried years ago to help us to be more safety conscience and look where we are now. I think we have to show we can help ourselves first.

Operators are very short sighted. They only look at immediate costs, not long term consequences and costs. Thats why we are in the situation we are today. Until operators put a cost on not operating safely, they won't take it seriously. While they might be paying a lot more now for insurance, some poor pilots have lost their careers, possibly unnecessarily if they had had some operator endorsed training.

Finger pointing won't achieve anything at this stage, it's time for all the operators to get together, agree they are all deficient in safety training, and make the changes.

[currawong]

It's a shame, but a sign of the times, I suppose, that safety was about lives.

Seems the $$$ angle of the safety equation is taking priority now.

There was talk fairly recently about a AAAA produced crash comic.

Could be the way to go.

About insurance, self insurance was an option explored by operators in the past. Could mean we are all back in radials, but the $$$ saved in premiums mean a spare in the shed is a real option.

[Lowlevldevl]

This is going well fella's. Appreciate your ideas.
Looks like better, more frequent and mandatory safety seminars have a fair bit of support. For those of you who are unaware, Robinson Helicopters have been running and promoting 'Robinson Safety Courses' for over a decade now which have had a significant impact on the accident statistics for the R-22 helicopter in particular. For pilots, a certificate of completion within the last 2 years is a requirement for employment with most companies operating them in Australia. The insurance company/(companies?) sponsors the programme and the rate of insurance for pilots without the certificate basically makes them un-employable.
The course consists of a 2 day ground school as well as a check-ride with a Robinson approved instructor. You have to do both to get the certificate.
It doesn't matter how experienced a pilot you are. If you don't do the course, you can't fly the helicopter. ( Unless the company is prepared to pay the higher premium)
Should the Ag industry should look at doing something similar?

[maxspeed]

Hey Don,
Got any specifics on upcoming course dates and locations?
Cheers Chris

[Lowlevldevl]

G'day Max,
How're things on the Northern Beaches?
Guess you're asking about the R-22 safety courses. Can't give you any specifics but if you wanted to call Rob Rich on (07) 3300 3706 I'm sure you'll get the information you need. The helicopter training school in Cairns would know as well.
Keep the dirty side down,
DB

[AT502]

Hello all,

Excellent to see some debate going on. Good to see this forum been used by aggies.

To the topic at hand..............

Don, are you still going to give a copy of this thread to the AAAA board? I hope so!

Remember that you elect these people to represent you on the board. (thats if you are a financial member!) Communicate with them to find out what is been discussed about these issues and what the board is doing.

If we want to be seen as a professional industry and be self regulated, how about we get off our back sides and start professional 'check & training' programmes.

AT502:cool:Lets get PROACTIVE rather then been REACTIVE

Thats my thought for the day............ Phew, that was exhausting, especially the large font stuff:uhoh:

AT502:cool:

[AT502]

What happened? Did I scare everyone off?

Don't tell me you've all gone shy:uhoh:

AT502:cool:

Enjoy your lunch? Thank an Ag Pilot!

[Lowlevldevl]

AT 502,
Thats what happens when you SHOUT, see. We're a sensitive bunch.;)
Would really like to see a few more faces in here to try and get a bigger range of ideas and input. Are you guys out there spreading the good word about our little forum here?

For another idea from me, at the AGM after the convention there was a discussion about the OH &S requirement for all companies with employees to hold a safety meeting periodically. One operator volunteered that when they hold theirs he makes a point of NOT attending so that his people feel they can be more open in their discussions because the boss isn't there. That was a pretty good idea I thought. Apparently any organization which doesn't hold these meetings is in breach of OH&S legislation. When you think of OH&S safety issues you're probably inclined to think about irresponsibly discarded banana peels, stuff like that but there's no reason why discussions about pilot technique shouldn't be approached as well. (diplomatically in consideration of ego's of course)
What if AAAA's were to provide a bit of coaching or guidance to a few of these meetings to give those new to the concept an idea of how they should be run? Areas of safety concern that are identified by AAAA's could be communicated to the member companies for discussion at subsequent safety meetings. Each meeting could be chaired by a different employee each month with that employee nominated as company safety officer for the month leading up to the next meeting. That gives each employee a chance to feel responsible not just for their own safety but that of their colleagues as well. The more I think about it the more convinced I am that OH&S has given us a great tool to tackle our recent spike in accident statistics.
Another thought I've had is that a lot of the accidents we've had recently and a lot from before as well are related to inadequate flight planning. We think of flight plans we think of headings and time intervals and of course these bear little relevance to the type of operations we conduct. But flight planning is also about take off distance required and fuel planning:(
What training did we ever get on establishing what runway length we needed? Not much probably. Why not?
Too hard. Impractical. Why bother? Just dump if it looks like you're not going to make it, right? THat was fine for Super but, maybe it's time we looked at it a bit harder. As the products we apply get more and more expensive surely we owe it to our clients as well as ourselves to know for sure that we' have the performance to get off that strip that we've never seen before just now, rather than just being pretty sure.

[Rarely Dble Amber]

This is the sort of thread that ends up saving lives..

What has always amazed me is the lack of ongoing training for Ag Pilots. Forget the BFR. That is there for your commercial license, not your ag rating. If You want to keep your Ag Rating, then you need a CPL.. if you want to keep your CPL, then you need to do a BFR. Simple. Sure, it has no worth to a pilot that only flys ag, but too bad. Its for your Pilots License, thats it.

After nearly 13 years ag flying I have only ever had 2 checks that related to what I do for a living. The 13 month check and the Ag 1. I (and most of you, assuming you have read this far into the thread) fly in an extremely demanding environment, in expensive, purpose built airplanes. Yet here I am with another 20 years of this career in front of me and I may never again need to prove or have checked that the way I do things is safe. This is despite the fact that what we do is arguably one of the most dangerous flying occupations there is. Absurd if you ask me.

How you would implement a check and training system into the ag industry?.. i have no idea. But the current system is obviously not working. How about a check flight every 1000 hours ag flight time?..

Heres a question for you.. assuming we did do check flights.. What do you think we should be checked for? If YOU were checking out an ag pilot, what would you look for?...

Keep this discussion going... If you have a thought..post it. After all, it may well be MY life that you save :D


Ben.

[Agwaggon]

OK I'll start by saying that I have thought for many years now that people who doodle around on pprune are generally a bunch of wankers with to much time on ther hands. Now I'm not sure I'm about to change that opinion generally speaking. However this forum and in perticular this thread have caused me to reflect a bit and bend my opinion a little. This is a very good and healthy debate on a matter close to my heart. And all thanks to that low little devil!
Turbomans reply on this posted in the wee hours of the 21st has hit the nail fairly and squarly on the noggen.
We may have some problems with Ag pilot training.( I stress MAY ) and we may have some problems with pilot decision making, but lets face it Ag pilots make mistakes too. Yes we are human! Being a good and hopefully long living Aggie isn't about not making mistakes. I's about making sure you minamise those mistakes that are going to get you killed, very badly hurt or at the least very very embarressed. What we most surely do have is an operator culture of putting $$$$ per hour at the top of the tree. Well at lease for years we did. Now after a couple of lets say shakey years and quite some big stick waveing from the insurers operators are saying that they have a pilot problem!! BullS---. Lets not forget this industry is run by the operators and ultimately this is an operator problem with implecations for pilots.
I think the idea of a saftey course run or sanctioned by the AAAA's and the insurers and accruing mandortory AAAA pilot accredation points is a great idea. It seems to have had results with the R22 accident rate. That is why it has continued and is a must do for aspiring helicopter pilots who may be getting into a Robbie. Actually any pilot that may be getting into a Robbie regardless of experience.
There is no doubt in my mind that since the serious decline of the super spreading industry over 10 years ago now there has been an erosion of some Ag piloting skills. Perticularly when it comes to take off in a heavily overloaded aeroplane (not airplane please people) and keeping the screaming ,shakeing thing in the air untill the load is reducing. This may have a bearing on the t/o accident rate which I'm led to believe has worsened.
However this would have no effect on the wire strike rate. So what have we there. Well lets first look at the good side. Around 15 or so years ago 1 in 4 power line strikes was fatal. Or so I'm led to believe. Last year we had what, 50 or 60 or so. How many were fatal? So it's not all bad news is it! All thanks to big machinery.
All those years ago we were flying at trees, fences, wires etc at 90 to 105 kts. Not so now, its more like 125 to 145 kts. I'm getting older my 486 between my ears is getting slower and its all happening much quicker. Not a good equation there for starters.
All those years ago I was pretty confident I'd fit under that wire because all the farm machinery did. And if it looked a bit dodgie you went under right by the pole and had a look, right! these days in a 5 or a 6 or an 8? I don't think so.
All those years ago our eyes were way out in front madly scaning for any unwanted objects that may be in our path whilst steering in the gereral direction of a piece of rag madly waving somewhere in the distance. Not so now. We are expected to keep with in a metre or two with one eye up and down on the lights all along the run. Not to mention the more critical side of flow rates etc these days.
All those years ago what was coming out the back and how far sideways it went perticularly with insecticides wasn't a "I might loose my house here issue" Not so now.
Anybody who even gererally equates the stats of now with yesteryear is a bloody garden gnome.
20 years ago Ag flying was an enjoyable job. sometimes even fun. At the worst it was a hard day. Now it's a pressure cooker.
And for all that pilots a now constantly being coerced into accepting less money and accepting more financial risk. However that is another topic and not for the little Devils safety format.
Turboman is on the right track. Take it to then Don.

[currawong]

You are right Agwaggon.

Speaking of time on hands, that is a really long post...:E

By the by re supering to spraying, know a few that met a lot of resistance trying to make the transition. Why? I don't know.

[Lowlevldevl]

Crikey,I only just caught this thing before it fell off the bottom of the page. That was close!

How about it. This all gets discussed by the AAAA's board in 9 days.

Anybody else like to have their say?

Anybody think "highly encouraged"Safety Course's are a 'dumb' idea?

Cheers,
Don