What's the Job Worth ?

[IMA Conehead]

Bus429 seems to have rattled a few cages in the thread about wages and there appears to be no support for our cause from within the crew faction, time we stood our ground.

http://www.geocities.com/thehugmonster/animations/iconpuke.gif http://www.geocities.com/thehugmonster/animations/iconpuke.gif


2 Question's:
[list=a]
What's the Job REALLY worth ??
What will it take to get it ??
[/list=a]

http://www.geocities.com/thehugmonster/animations/bounceinv.gif http://www.geocities.com/thehugmonster/animations/bounce.gif http://www.geocities.com/thehugmonster/animations/bounceinv.gif http://www.geocities.com/thehugmonster/animations/bounce.gif http://www.geocities.com/thehugmonster/animations/bounceinv.gif


[This message has been edited by IMA Conehead (edited 28 September 2000).]

[jetfueldrinker]

Engineers in our industry are underpaid and not respected, but this doesn't necessarily reflect in our pay packets. The day of the airline perk is drawing to a close, but what about other periferals such as membership to fitness clubs, or subsidised social outings? Do any of us get them? I certainly don't. Yet the hi-tech engineers working on developing hard and software all seem to. Even shop floor workers at a car plant near where I work get better perks than me. Time that the feel good factor was restored to aviation maintenance instead of 'If you cannot get that aircraft out the door in 9 days, we will all be down the road' attitude that now prevails. What will happen if loweat quote maintenance wins the day and all heavy work goes to Asia and the Far East? No health and safety regulations, minimum wage or working time directives over there. But there is limited hangar space too. No doubt He With The Biggest Cheque Book would win the day there, so I recon that our jobs are safe for a few years yet.

[cotos]

Unfortuneately, the major problem is public ignorance of Aircraft Maintenance Engineers, hence the low priority. As I'm sure everyone has experienced, when my wife says 'my husbands an aircraft engineer' the usual ignorant reply is 'oh I suppose there must be mechanics for planes like there are for cars'. This is not lost by the folk in the upper echelons of both airlines and engineering companies, hence the people in the departments where the general public can relate to have a higher profile. This was most apparant during my time in an office at Failing Line Services. The previleges and jollies afford me and my office colleagues compared to what the guys on the line and in the hangar was, well, embarrasing.
A similar problem also occurs in the unionised airline environment. The airline that I once worked for, the maple leaf type, had Licensed Aircraft Engineers, Flight despatchers and car mechanics all in the same union. The despatchers were paid the most because they had to pass an exam to become a despatcher. The difference between a car mechanic and an A/C engineer was £50 per month. Sadly, despite pressing the issue, no one wanted to break away from the transit van mechanics because we were all working men together.
A/C engineers must first of all shake off the other clingers on and be self representing before any further progress can be made in attaining What The Job Is Worth.

[trapper]

Good point, what are we worth? Without us the airlines cease to operate but then this is true of many other jobs within the airline. No point having serviceable aircraft fully crewed if nobody has sold any tickets! One big difference though is that the airlines can not recruit and train a person from scratch quickly, to be able to certify an aircraft (or be competant to do so). In short, we are worth what we are prepared to do the job for. Problem has always been, if I ask for a higher rate some other snake will offer to do it for less. Times though are changing, many old school are retireing, and the internet lets us communicate to each other and find out what we are charging for our services, or at least it should. What I suggest is that we each record what we earn at each company and at each contract, actual figures not bullsh*t. This gives us a base for negotiations for pay purposes and hopefully will stop some of the sometimes severe undercutting that keeps contract pay (and hence regular) pay down. What do you all think of this idea? Best regards to you all, trapper>

[redtail]

Try this for wage scales in the US.
http://www.amfanow.org/AMT-Wage_Scales.htm

[as,I,see,it]

I saw a documentary last year about BA trainee first officer. It takes 18 months to train a first officer from scratch, to a right hand seat position on A320's. I don't know what these people get paid as a first officer but I bet it is more than a five year indentured apprentice. As a requirement of JAR66 5 years is now the minimum experience requirement for the right to 'apply'. Pay scales are significantly different and previously stated, it is because we as engineers, allow it to be so by being tied into union bargaining groups where mechanics get the same % rise. This is not to denigrate the mechanic, (you must first be the mechanic before the engineer)but we must make the separation. If we value our skills, knowledge and qalifications then fight for our cause and not everyone else. This will no doubt upset the staunch unionites, but what an insentive for a mechanic that would be, to get a license and the associated pay hike. In the company I work for certain mechanics can earn 40K, by working shifts and overtime. This is a great deal more than an inspectors basic and license pay. Granted 40K including shift and overtime but, also with 0 responsibility and 0 license with the associated responsibility that entails. Thats just as,I,see,it.


A mechanic has no certification responsibility and an LAE (licensed aircraft engineer) has. Some companies call the LAE an inspector, supervisor or LT (Licensed Technician. Line Engineers are usually more hands on, than hangar engineers on heavy checks. Inspect & Supervise

[This message has been edited by as,I,see,it (edited 07 October 2000).]

[redtail]

Could you translate “mechanic” to us almost english speaking folks? In the system you work in it sounds like a mechanic is someone without licenses who works on aircraft, and an engineer is someone with licenses. Do engineers work on aircraft, or do they just supervise mechanics?

Sorry if this seems a bit obtuse, but I’d like to get my apples matched to apples and my oranges compared to oranges.


[This message has been edited by redtail (edited 07 October 2000).]

[PHIL@high49]

perhaps if we had a body like BALPA looking out for our interests and getting us more public attention then maybe we feel abit better about ourselves. I wont slag the ALAE off because I am sure they try there bestwith limited resources, but we are PROS. If you describe your duties "basically" to the layman their initial reaction is always bloody hell "thats some responsability" and or "you most get paid a fortune" andf of course most of us dont recieve the salary the job should. Our job is never over. for example I bet most of you have sat at home or in the pub and thought now did I do that right , should I have done that etc when the thing goes wrong the hole system looks at you to get it fixed asap. OF COURSE WE UNDERVALUED AND UNDERPAID, BUT OUR DAY WILL COME MY SON, OUR DAY WILL COME!

[Multi-X]

Phil
We had the chance to go in with BALPA many years ago but BA offered a pay rise if the engineers did not join. So for a short term gain we lost the chance to join in with the pilots.

As usual as engineers are our own worst enemies.

[WenWe]

Redtail - to answer your q, this is the U.K. system:

Mechanic:Non - certifying posn, tho' most companies grant "limited & simple" authorisations to cover daily checks & some component changes,i.e.wheels/brakes/filaments etc.
Within B.A. this posn is a "technician". They can hold approvals that cover more component changes but not function checks or trouble shooting (Ramp Maint Auth), or that cover a complete zone during hangar checks (Base Maint Auth).

Engineer (sometimes refered to as "Licenced tech"):Certifying Engineer, holding Licences & company approvals, signs for work up to the limit of their licence (airframe/eng/elec/isnt/radio etc).May be hands on or not dependant on Company & whether line or base maint.

[fishtank]

if the worst comes to the worst you can always get something new. Demand for engineers has never been higher as everyone gets into IT, there's not enough new recruits to go around.

if you want a shift I recommend checking out
http://www.aviationjobsearch.com

where you can find loads of engineering positions in the UK, Europe, Middle East and United States.

[Dozy Bell]

Fishtank, this is another great way of advertising your website by dropping it in all of your postings http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[This message has been edited by Dozy Bell (edited 27 October 2000).]

[unwrapping the aog]

Cotos is right. How often do you see an engineer on any of the fly on the wall TV documentaries, Airport, Airline etc. The public must think that all operations revolve around the decisions of camp dispatchers, dog handlers and traffic wardens. !

Also when asked what do you do for a living and you reply I'm an aircraft engineer. How people say Oh, and were do you do that?

[This message has been edited by unwrapping the aog (edited 28 October 2000).]

[Chad Helmuth]

I have to agree that we are our own worst enemies. I have just spent a month on an aircraft manufactures course with 11 other engineers from all over the place.
none of them were even willing to talk about there pay in specifics just 'abouts' or ish !!!

Talk about reserved.

Does the ALAE hold a current database of what companies pay, that members work for.

I know BALPA have a sort of list for pilots pay from airlines.

I have never been asked by the ALAE has anyone else, maybe it is time they did what do you all think ????

Chad

[cotos]

Unwrapping the AOG, as it happens we (Aircraft Eng's) were mentioned once during a piece about an LH totty who puts pax on board a/c. The aircraft was due to depart shortly and the engineer was LATE, but they failed to mention that the poor sod was probably about to depart his tenth a/c that hour. Fortuneately for the viewing public the engineer was found on time and the a/c departed on schedule. And so the scene ended with the girlie saving the day!! Absolute load of arrrssseee.

[mriya225]

Hmmm, so a girlie saved the day huh?

I can just see it now...

"Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Candy, I'll be your host on this flight. Unfortunately our AME is running late; so if you would be so kind as to seat yourselves. I'm just going to go down and do a quick line check (have a look-see at the tire pressures and fluid levels)...and I think I'll take a peek at that left main while I'm at it," with a wink and a placid smile "that strut looks like it may have a minor leak."

Who says girlies are only good for one thing?! ;)

------------------
Patience is letting your motor idle when you feel like stripping your gears.

[spannersatcx]

Chad, the ALAE (http://www.lae.mcmail.com) did look into doing it at one stage there were reasons why it wasn't done, some of whioch you can read here. To actually get a co to say what it's employees earn is not something you get very easily and to be accurate that is the only way. A lot of people earn x but x can be made up of so many things, OT, license/approval pay etc etc.
to answer the original point
a. 50K
b. mass industrial walkout to grind all airlines to a halt, and this will never happen as there is no unity and some will always carry on regardless.

[Genghis the Engineer]

As it happens, I spent a chunk of Friday writing a long and detailed letter to my boss explaining why I'd appreciate the courtesy of a measurable payrise this year.

In my search for some evidence to back me up, I discovered that the Engineering Council (they had to do something useful eventually) publish a salary survey of all UK Engineers on their website.

If anybody wishes to take a look at it, you'll find it at...
http://www.engc.org.uk/gateway/3/Survey_of_Registrants_2000.pdf (it's about 20 pages long and takes a minute or two to download)

The EC has three grades (and if you're not registered shame on you) - CEng is for Engineers, IEng is for well educated Technicians and poorly educated Engineers, and Eng.Tech is for averagely educated technicians. They don't deal with mechanics.

Incidentally, somebody up there asked about Engineers .v. technicians .v. mechanics. Since I don't think he got answered...

Engineer - highly educated, carries authority to make design decisions.

Technician - highly trained, carries authority to make maintenance or working decisions. Works to documents written by Engineers.

Mechanic - semi-skilled or untrained, works normally under supervision of a technician. Little or no direct authority.

By which definition, most people called "licensed aircraft engineers" are technicians. I hasten to add that they are usually bloody good ones, and in my experience although the best Engineers are better paid than the best Technicians - in our industry an average Technician is better paid than an average Engineer.

Genghis,

Good Engineer, average technician.

[unwrapping the aog]

I have to agree with the majority, wether we get it or not is a different matter. We ,despite public opinion, have as much power as the aircraft captain, long or short haul. Plus if we cock it up there's not always someone sat next to us watching,Like a first officer, also how many captains can fly more than one aircraft at a time, or even hold more than one current type rating, on different manufacturers aircraft.

Quite often in maintrol the captain of the aircraft asks for advice wether on the ground or in the air regarding maintenance problems, and base his/her decisions on my advice. Even when airbourne we have the power to ask an aircraft to return to base.

In fact I,ve just convinced myself, we are more powerful than a captain!

Let's say £50k Basic at least.

[Dozy Bell]

Gengis, I think the statement " Mechanic - semi skilled or untrained " is a bit harsh. Most mechanics have gone through a 4 year apprenticeship, 3 or 4 years at college to attain ONC OR HNC qualifications, then they take an AEC (then taken away)or its replacement the AMC. In my experience a good mechanic is worth his weight in gold. Admittedly untrained people sneak in the back door to become mechs, but we should make sure this doesn't happen. No indentures no job. Incidently I know a few mechs that have an AMEL.

[This message has been edited by Dozy Bell (edited 29 October 2000).]

[spannersatcx]

What has the Engineering Council got to do with A Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers description holding UK (or other) Civil Aviation Authority Licences.

[Blacksheep]

Ghengis,

Have you ever considered that the Engineering Council might be part of the problem?

At one time the Engineering Institutes were a route to professional status for engineering technicians that were unable, for various reasons, to attend university. Over the years they have evolved into an exclusive network. By layering the engineering profession into rigid group classifications while increasing the qualification levels retrospectively, they have helped large companies in the "divide and rule" policy that underpins their "human resource" policies. In particular you may note the Royal Aeronautical Society's exclusion from corporate membership of all engineering staff other than Chartered Engineers. At the same time, Cabin Crew with five years in the job are qualified for corporate membership, as are holders of a Commercial Pilots Licence. Licenced Aircraft Engineers are not welcome; those who insist on joining are relegated to non-voting associate membership.

And we wonder why we are poorly paid? With such support from our own kind what can we expect?

The ALAE seems to be the way to go. Unity is strength, we will only move forward when we are united.

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Genghis the Engineer]

Dozy - I would personally define somebody with a 4 year apprenticeship and an ONC as a technician. Certainly, they should qualify for Eng.Tech status with appropriate work experience.

Blacksheep - I agree with you in general, but some of your facts are wrong. I think that anybody should have the potential to reach any level if they've the ability and experience. The RAeS uses the term "corporate members" for Members and Fellows, but has other grades, postnominals, etc. all levels of qualification from the Chairman of BA to an aircraft spotter.

The RAeS grading guide states that appropriate qualifications for Associate includes a LWTR and for Associate Member (ARAeS) a Licensed engineer holding full CRS approval - which is the Eng.Tech level. There is a sliding scale of experience .v. qualifications - more experience, less qualifications you're deemed to require and visa versa. A hangar chief with 15 years experience and all the normal licenses should qualify as a Member (corporate) as I read the RAeS grading guide anyway.

I do not agree with the EngC on many things - they are too obsessed with full time education rather than practical experience (you need a bit of both - but I'd argue that the latter is always more important). However they are there to represent us. I don't think we should regard ourselves as fundamentally apart from the rest of the Engineering profession, and in this context - they publish a bloody useful salary survey.

Please don't take me as an apologist for the Eng.C / RAeS system, there's a lot wrong with it. I've spent the last 2 years attending meetings at Hamilton place to get greater recognition of GA & non-academically qualified people - which I find the more constructive approach than just criticising.

Genghis CEng

[Blacksheep]

Genghis,

Seems like we are in broad agreement on most things and only differ on minor points. The RAeS does indeed provide lots of useful information such as the salary survey. Their website also carries an interesting Microsoft Powerpoint presentation on Human Factors that is a thought provoking reflection on the decline in maintenance standards.

I observe that wages in engineering in general and our own industry in particular, are declining with respect to wages for people with similar skill levels in other industries. Recruiting levels are down and there is an increasing shortage of qualified people. At the same time increased demand for air travel leads to a demand for more staff (as well as aircraft) in all areas including engineering. Now, according to economic theory in a competitive, efficient market, a shortage of supply coupled with an increase in demand must lead to a rise in market clearing price. In this case, wages.
Since this is not happening, some other factor must be in play. From simple observation of what is going on around me I note that the standards of training of new entrants is declining. Jobs that used to done by trained LAEs are now done by semi-skilled workers, supposedly under the direct supervision of the hard-pressed LAEs. Regulatory bodies, rather than being a public service, are required to pay their own way from funds generated from providing their 'services' rather than from taxation. Can you imagine the situation if the police had to finance themselves from revenues derived from fines? Meanwhile, airline owners and bosses contribute massive amounts of money to political parties and are rewarded by honours and distinction, not to mention the award of routes and slots.

Am I being too cynical? Perhaps, but the fact remains that while aviation safety continues to be stable and the accident rate due to operational causes such as CFIT continues to improve, the accident RATE due to maintenance related causes has more than doubled over the past ten years. From figures provided by the FAA, last year FAR131 operators suffered 7 hull losses due to maintenance related causes, this being 50% of total hull losses. Such figures leave no room for complacency.

Unless the numbers of well qualified, experienced engineers, technicians or mechanics - whatever we choose to call ourselves - increases, we will never halt the decline. The starting point is retaining the existing people followed by making the job attractive to new recruits. The method is to pay better wages and provide better working conditions.

The question asked at the top of this thread is "What's the job REALLY worth?"

My answer is "About 45,000 pounds a year, minimum (in UK anyway.) More for more qualifications and experience." Anyone care to disagree?

**********************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[Line_LAME]

Edited - I have to stay away from these boards!

[This message has been edited by Line_LAME (edited 01 November 2000).]

[Genghis the Engineer]

I agree Blacksheep - in fact you seem to have more or less summarised my letter to the boss about an annual payrise.

As a profession we don't help ourselves by and large - we allow too many unqualified people to take engineering management posts and are far from unified. We also don't provide many training opportunities for new people coming into the profession.

I have a personal hope that the current mass employment exercise by BAE / Airbus for the 777 development might well drive salaries up considerably in my sector of the industry, although I doubt it'll have quite the same benign effect upon maintenance salaries.

Incidentally, the RAeS have done one very useful thing recently - they've bowed to pressure and re-opened the members bar at Hamilton Place.

G

[reracker]

Certain companies seem to be of the opinion that enginners are valuable employees and are almost headhunting people, JMC at Gatwick and I understand Manchester are very nearly 100% LAME's, the wages seem to be heading in the right direction and I haven't heard of them being in a dire financial situation due to paying good money for good engineering. If a company like that can cope paying an average of £36-38k plus O/T(correct me if i'm wrong) a year to its engineers, surely others could too. As has been said the number of people coming into the industry is nowhere near the number leaving, or being promoted to a desk job. (Too many chiefs). This must push up wages by the simple process of supply and demand.

More and more work is being piled on the LAME's at our place as the others drift off to better paid jobs, they are around.
And sooner rather than later something is going to give and an incident will occur. We need more engineers and the only way to attract them is better pay, conditions and more awareness of what we do.

I am of firm belief the only way to raise our profile, wages and status, is together. I know it doesn't have the teeth of BALPA but until anybody comes up with a better idea than all joining the ALAE and turning it into an organisation that represents the whole of our noble profession, then we will still be typing into our PC's moaning in years to come.

[cotos]

The job will always be low paid if there is low demand for LAME's as in the current climate. As Blacksheep and Spannersatcx will attest there are plenty to fill all voids in the business. JMC are well equipped due to their realistic salaries offered, BA are up to strength, VS are OK, so the only places short of people are the likes of Britannia, Monarch and FLS and who wants to work there, even for £50K. As previously mentioned there is plenty of cheap labour around who will accept a couple of pounds less so that will always fill the gap.